I posted this on the flkeys sailnet group, but figure there's more people
here than there :{)) We've already heard about the routing in this group,
but the wind and marina stuff is still unknown...


We'll be coming through in our M461, 63' air draft, 6-6 water draft, from
St. Pete. We'll be headed to some point in the Bahamas where we can buy
fuel and find a post office, in order to satisfy our tax shelter from sales
tax.

We'll need to do that quickly - not hang out on the hook for the best
weather, which will mean trying to guage the weather before we leave from
St. Pete.

We expect to sail it straight through; the main portion of the trip is
pretty straightforward, but getting through the shoals around the west side
are enough to make us wonder if it can really be done.

Our target is to get there in plenty of light, even if it means just heaving
to somewhere off shore for the rest of the night - and then leave by lunch,
preferably the following day, with an overnight anchor to rest up.

So, there's a couple of questions.

1) What recommended route (with waypoints, if available - but we've got both
paper and electronic charts so should be able to figure out stuff if not)
through the shoals and bridge from the west? And, the only other time we
were there, we tied up outside, as, at the time, there wasn't a reverse in
our tranny and we didn't want to risk going into the harbor. (We then went
on to Key West, not under the bridge/West.) Is it worth the time to go
anchor in the harbor, or is out front better to avoid having to get up early
to leave before lunch?

2) We expect this to be either late winter or early spring
(March-April-May). Is there any online resource for a track of how winds
behave in this time frame (or any other, for that matter)? That is, what
sort of wind tracking can we expect, in order to make our best arrival? It
would be very useful if we could have some assurance that we'd find the wind
as expected (which would mean extrapolation to that point from at least a
couple of days out) when we got there. Our tax issues don't allow us the
luxury of hanging on the hook until a suitable window arrives - we have to
get there when it does, if at all possible.

And, perhaps, a 3rd, as a backup plan, without going into all the vagaries
of the tax law:

What marinas there have haul-out facilities? We'd actually not haul out,
but that ability is one of the main qualifiers for a tax-sheltered layover,
and we'd be in water storage, so that we could leave on a moment's notice.

Thanks for any direction and experience...

L8R

Skip and Lydia, preparing to cut the cord

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her

"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so
much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in
boats-or *with* boats.
In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's
the charm of it.
Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 19:14:30 -0500, "Skip Gundlach" skipgundlach at
gmail dotcom wrote:

We expect to sail it straight through; the main portion of the trip is
pretty straightforward, but getting through the shoals around the west side
are enough to make us wonder if it can really be done.

I assume you are talking about the west side of Marathon south of the
bridge? The bridge at Moser Channel has 65 ft at high tide so you
should be OK there.

From the bridge go south about .75 nm to R2 before turning ENE towards
FL G '1' at the Marathon channel entrance. That will take you south of
Pigeon Key Banks and north of the 6 ft spot. We have no problem with
5 1/2 feet, lots of water. The real challenge is finding a place to
anchor or moor in Boot Key Harbor. You might be better off to just
get a dock for the night.

If you don't want to do the run non-stop, Venice is a good stop over,
as is Ft Myers Beach or Marco Island.

If you really want to give FL the slip, run non-stop to the Bahamas.
Once you leave the marina in St Pete there will be no record of you
anywhere unless you transit a drawbridge at some point. Your entry
documents in the Bahamas will document your timing if it should ever
become an issue, which is unlikely in my opinion. Once you are over 3
miles offshore I believe you are technically out of state.

Hi, Wayne, and group,

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 19:14:30 -0500, "Skip Gundlach" skipgundlach at
gmail dotcom wrote:

We expect to sail it straight through; the main portion of the trip is
pretty straightforward, but getting through the shoals around the west
side
are enough to make us wonder if it can really be done.

I assume you are talking about the west side of Marathon south of the
bridge? The bridge at Moser Channel has 65 ft at high tide so you
should be OK there.

Well, technically, as to the bridge, we're talking about the closest point
under the road to Key West in order to make our transit as short as
possible. The subject shoals are on the St. Pete side of the bridge, which
we assume to be mile marker 5 or some such. All the looking at paper and
electronic charts have not been very definitive about how to make that
happen successfully, and there seem to be several points where bridges are
high enough, which surprises me.


From the bridge go south about .75 nm to R2 before turning ENE towards
FL G '1' at the Marathon channel entrance. That will take you south of
Pigeon Key Banks and north of the 6 ft spot. We have no problem with
5 1/2 feet, lots of water. The real challenge is finding a place to
anchor or moor in Boot Key Harbor. You might be better off to just
get a dock for the night.

Is that the area south of Marathon, with a large shallows area across from
it? If so, that's where we hung our hook on the CCW direction trip.


If you don't want to do the run non-stop, Venice is a good stop over,
as is Ft Myers Beach or Marco Island.

Heh. Unless Venice has dredged, their ICW channel is from hunger - or, more
likely, starvation!, putting it charitably. We went aground a half dozen
times trying to follow directions (in the ICW!) to get to the yacht club.
We gave up and tied up at the restaurant/fuel supply. The next morning, we
went hard (fortunately we were pulled off by a monster sportfish delivery
captain we'd chatted up at dinner) aground, again in the channel, right
across from the fuel dock. I can't speak to the others...


If you really want to give FL the slip, run non-stop to the Bahamas.
Once you leave the marina in St Pete there will be no record of you
anywhere unless you transit a drawbridge at some point. Your entry
documents in the Bahamas will document your timing if it should ever
become an issue, which is unlikely in my opinion. Once you are over 3
miles offshore I believe you are technically out of state.

Probably - but the point isn't to flee, but instead prove to the folks in
Tallahassee that we're not using or enjoying our boat in FL, thus escaping
the multithousand dollar privilege of buying it in FL. So, our entry point
documents is a good thought, though, as it most certainly will become an
issue - we'll mail them a copy, rather than our fuel receipt. Hm. Maybe.
Do the entry documents include the boat, or just the people? And, given the
very narrow window available, we want to do that directly - and hope that we
can time the winds right...

Thanks.

L8R

Skip


--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:25:10 -0500, "Skip Gundlach" skipgundlach at
gmail dotcom wrote:

Well, technically, as to the bridge, we're talking about the closest point
under the road to Key West in order to make our transit as short as
possible.

That would be Moser channel at Marathon.

The subject shoals are on the St. Pete side of the bridge, which
we assume to be mile marker 5 or some such.

No. You are totally out of the ICW at this point.

All the looking at paper and
electronic charts have not been very definitive about how to make that
happen successfully, and there seem to be several points where bridges are
high enough, which surprises me.

Only at Moser Channel west of Marathon.

The approach from the north goes like this:

Aim for a way point at roughly Lat N24-55 by Lon W81-09.

From there proceed due south 6.7 nautical miles leaving Bullard
Bank to starboard.

Next, run a course of 213 magnetic for a distance of 3.7 NM leaving
Red Bay Bank to port.

Continuing on, go south again towards Moser Channel and the bridge,
taking a small westward jog around the 7 foot spot just north of the
bridge.

From the bridge go south .75 nm to R2, then turn ENE towards FL G
'1' at the Marathon channel entrance. That will take you south of
Pigeon Key Banks and north of the 6 ft spot.

If you don't want to do the run non-stop, Venice is a good stop over,
as is Ft Myers Beach or Marco Island.

Heh. Unless Venice has dredged, their ICW channel is from hunger - or, more
likely, starvation!, putting it charitably. We went aground a half dozen
times trying to follow directions (in the ICW!) to get to the yacht club.

You don't need to go on the ICW if you are just pulling in off the
Gulf of Mexico for the night. There is a large marina on the right as
you go in (Crow's Nest Marina).

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 00:14:35 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

The subject shoals are on the St. Pete side of the bridge, which
we assume to be mile marker 5 or some such.

Are you talking about taking the ICW south from St Pete or going under
the Sunshine Skyway out into the Gulf?

Are you starting from St Pete on Tampa Bay or from St Pete Beach on
the west side?

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 00:14:35 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

The subject shoals are on the St. Pete side of the bridge, which
we assume to be mile marker 5 or some such.

Are you talking about taking the ICW south from St Pete or going under
the Sunshine Skyway out into the Gulf?

Are you starting from St Pete on Tampa Bay or from St Pete Beach on
the west side?


We're in Salt Creek Marina. We'll go under the skyway and head south.

We'll go outside. The fastest route there is my target. Generally speaking
, from my very limited experience, I want to avoid the ICW in my remaining
few - and any other, unlikely, subsequent, US sailing days (once we leave
FL, we don't expect to return to the US).

Thanks for the waypoints and headings, btw!

L8R

Skip and Lydia

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:25:10 -0500, "Skip Gundlach" skipgundlach at
gmail dotcom wrote:
If you don't want to do the run non-stop, Venice is a good stop over,
as is Ft Myers Beach or Marco Island.

Heh. Unless Venice has dredged, their ICW channel is from hunger - or,
more
likely, starvation!, putting it charitably. We went aground a half dozen
times trying to follow directions (in the ICW!) to get to the yacht club.

You don't need to go on the ICW if you are just pulling in off the
Gulf of Mexico for the night. There is a large marina on the right as
you go in (Crow's Nest Marina).


That's the one where we eventually wound up tying up, and eating dinner,
too. And, for that matter, out in front of which we became hard aground IN
THE CHANNEL :{/)

NTL, if we had to, we'd go in, there.

L8R

Skip

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

Skip Gundlach wrote:.


We'll need to do that quickly - not hang out on the hook for the best
weather, which will mean trying to guage the weather before we leave from
St. Pete.


Hi Skip,
My Bahamas crossings have been with my 22 foot 4 foot draft sloop, so some
of my experiences may not apply to you. That being said, for the late Winter
and
early Spring you should see a lot of prevailing Easterly winds (not what you
want).
You can take advantage of the Northers that come down from the upper USA.
That causes the winds to go around clockwise. Timing here is critical that you
start
your trip when the winds are from the SE or S. Leaving from the mid or lower
keys,
you should get a nice beam reach for hopefully one day. It can be quicker than
that,
depending on how fast the front is moving. You definitely do not want to leave
with
any chance of the wind coming out of the NW, N, or NE as the Gulf Stream gets
very nasty with steep uncomfortable waves. Our weather has been pretty erratic
for the past few years, so I would not put too much faith in wind charts. You
can
find some in the Yachtsman Guide to the Bahamas, but they cannot be relied on.
You
seem to have a 63 footer which should get you across the 50 mile span in say 6
hours,
or less. I would leave at the crack of dawn to allow an arrival in early
afternoon, barring
other unusual circumstances. Also, check the Yachtsman's Guide for facilities
there.

Have a good sail,

Sherwin D.

Hi, Sherwin, and group,

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...


Skip Gundlach wrote:.


We'll need to do that quickly - not hang out on the hook for the best
weather, which will mean trying to guage the weather before we leave from
St. Pete.


Hi Skip,
You can take advantage of the Northers that come down from the upper USA.
That causes the winds to go around clockwise. Timing here is critical
that you
start
your trip when the winds are from the SE or S.

That's as we assumed - it's the making it there such that we don't have to
wait around for those winds which is our challenge.

You
seem to have a 63 footer which should get you across the 50 mile span in
say 6
hours,
or less. I would leave at the crack of dawn to allow an arrival in early
afternoon, barring
other unusual circumstances. Also, check the Yachtsman's Guide for
facilities
there.

Actually, that's the air draft. The boat's only a 46, 39.25 WL. VanSandt
seems to think it's much longer than that, recommending leaving just before
lunch to arrive by dawnish the next day. I have thought that to be rather
more than generous, but I surely want to arrive in full light. In any
event, if we were motoring at less than pedal-to-the-metal, or sailing in
good winds, we'd be in the 6's and 7's. That seems to make for - with
drift - more like a 10 or more hour crossing. Most of what I'd assumed
folks have done seemed oriented around Lake Worth, which has folks leaving
in the middle of the night, for a full-daylight arrival.

And, of course, if it's not north, most likely it will be east winds, making
it necessary to motor. My only direct experience with the stream was a very
light wind from the west, with very calm conditions, in early March a few
years ago, and we rode it from Nassau to Daytona Beach, with the engine just
ticking over while we sailed with barely filled sails.

Have a good sail,

Sherwin D.


Thanks.

L8R

Skip

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

BTW how long can an out of state boat remain in FL before it is subject to
FL tax ? I was thinking it was 90 days, but perhaps that is not correct.

"Skip Gundlach" skipgundlach at gmail dotcom wrote in message
...
I posted this on the flkeys sailnet group, but figure there's more people
here than there :{)) We've already heard about the routing in this group,
but the wind and marina stuff is still unknown...


We'll be coming through in our M461, 63' air draft, 6-6 water draft, from
St. Pete. We'll be headed to some point in the Bahamas where we can buy
fuel and find a post office, in order to satisfy our tax shelter from
sales tax.

We'll need to do that quickly - not hang out on the hook for the best
weather, which will mean trying to guage the weather before we leave from
St. Pete.

We expect to sail it straight through; the main portion of the trip is
pretty straightforward, but getting through the shoals around the west
side are enough to make us wonder if it can really be done.

Our target is to get there in plenty of light, even if it means just
heaving to somewhere off shore for the rest of the night - and then leave
by lunch, preferably the following day, with an overnight anchor to rest
up.

So, there's a couple of questions.

1) What recommended route (with waypoints, if available - but we've got
both paper and electronic charts so should be able to figure out stuff if
not) through the shoals and bridge from the west? And, the only other
time we were there, we tied up outside, as, at the time, there wasn't a
reverse in our tranny and we didn't want to risk going into the harbor.
(We then went on to Key West, not under the bridge/West.) Is it worth the
time to go anchor in the harbor, or is out front better to avoid having to
get up early to leave before lunch?

2) We expect this to be either late winter or early spring
(March-April-May). Is there any online resource for a track of how winds
behave in this time frame (or any other, for that matter)? That is, what
sort of wind tracking can we expect, in order to make our best arrival?
It would be very useful if we could have some assurance that we'd find the
wind as expected (which would mean extrapolation to that point from at
least a couple of days out) when we got there. Our tax issues don't allow
us the luxury of hanging on the hook until a suitable window arrives - we
have to get there when it does, if at all possible.

And, perhaps, a 3rd, as a backup plan, without going into all the vagaries
of the tax law:

What marinas there have haul-out facilities? We'd actually not haul out,
but that ability is one of the main qualifiers for a tax-sheltered
layover, and we'd be in water storage, so that we could leave on a
moment's notice.

Thanks for any direction and experience...

L8R

Skip and Lydia, preparing to cut the cord

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her

"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half
so much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing
about in boats-or *with* boats.
In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter,
that's the charm of it.
Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do,
and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."