Antifreeze?
 

I went to check our boat today. It was 50 degrees here on the coast of
Maine. That should make anyone who ever spent a winter in this part of
the world believe in global warming.

When I winterized the boat, I pumped three gallons of antifreeze into
the bilge by turning the wrong valve and then forgot to pump it out.
When I looked in today, there were clumps of white crust floating
around on top of it that turned out to be ice.

What’s going on here? The bilge was pretty dry last fall so it isn’t
diluted and I can see that no water has been getting into the boat by
the level. I sure hope it isn’t freezing in the engine.

--

Roger Long

Antifreeze?
 

Roger,
Antifreeze is not effective if it is not mixed with water in the proper
ratio. The manufacturers don't recommend using undiluted antifreeze for
this reason, and you know they would love to sell you more if that was
viable, but it isn't...Take a bowl of pure antifreeze and put it in
your freezer and see what happens....
Regards,
markvictor
http://groups.google.com/group/badboatbiz?hl=en

Antifreeze?
 

100% antifreeze will freeze as solid as a brick. Antifreeze has to be
mixed with water to the right proportions. Technically its called the
molal freezing point depression of the 'mixture'.
What happened is that the water vapor saturated air condensed on top of
the antifreeze, didnt mix with the antifreeze and formed a skin of
water ice on top of the antifreeze.
Ive done the same thing .... ;-) .... thats why I know the answer.




In article , Roger Long
wrote:

I went to check our boat today. It was 50 degrees here on the coast of
Maine. That should make anyone who ever spent a winter in this part of
the world believe in global warming.

When I winterized the boat, I pumped three gallons of antifreeze into
the bilge by turning the wrong valve and then forgot to pump it out.
When I looked in today, there were clumps of white crust floating
around on top of it that turned out to be ice.

What’s going on here? The bilge was pretty dry last fall so it isn’t
diluted and I can see that no water has been getting into the boat by
the level. I sure hope it isn’t freezing in the engine.

Antifreeze?
 

"Rich Hampel" wrote in

100% antifreeze will freeze as solid as a brick.


Yikes! Will it freeze hard enough to crack an engine block or is it
just like salt water slush? The yard service manager who told me how
to winterize the engine didn't say anything about mixing it with
water.

--

Roger Long

Antifreeze?
 

50% ethylene glycol and 50% water will take you down to -20degrees F.

100% antifreeze 'probably' (no guarantee) wont harm the block because
just about all substances on earth get smaller when they get colder.
Water is an exception however and becomes less dense and 'larger' at
near its freezing point; hence, the need to add antifreeze, ..... the
getting 'larger' produces the pressure to break castings, etc.

Incidentally ---- If water didnt have this 'little quirk' property, all
the ice in the ocean would fall to bottom of the ocean, never thaw, and
the highest ocean temperature in mid summer (thawed surface ice) would
be only 4 degrees Celsius .... and there wouldnt be much life on earth.
Be very thankful that frozen water floats.

Looks like you should drain the antifreeze, add water (the mix ratios
are usually listed on the side of the container) and reinstall.to be
absolutely safe.



In article , Roger Long
wrote:

"Rich Hampel" wrote in

100% antifreeze will freeze as solid as a brick.


Yikes! Will it freeze hard enough to crack an engine block or is it
just like salt water slush? The yard service manager who told me how
to winterize the engine didn't say anything about mixing it with
water.

Antifreeze?
 

****. That would be a huge project at this point. Getting a diesel
going in the temperatures we'll have by the day after tomorrow is no
joke. The batteries are in the shop, there is ice all around the
boat. Uhg.

This is a two cylinder raw water cooled diesel BTW. I knew you had to
mix antifreeze for cooling systems but I thought that was for proper
heat transfer. The idea that it freeze never occurred to me. This
stuff (non-tox with corrosion inhibitors; not RV anti-freeze) is just
in there to winterize the engine. Freezing solid won't hurt anything
unless it expands.

--

Roger Long

Antifreeze?
 

markvictor wrote:
Roger,
Antifreeze is not effective if it is not mixed with water in the proper
ratio. The manufacturers don't recommend using undiluted antifreeze for
this reason, and you know they would love to sell you more if that was
viable, but it isn't...Take a bowl of pure antifreeze and put it in
your freezer and see what happens....
Regards,
markvictor
http://groups.google.com/group/badboatbiz?hl=en


Yes...isn't it 50/50 for your auto radiator.

Antifreeze?
 

I checked with the boat yard this morning. It was Panol that they
sold me. They use it straight for winterization only. It may freeze
into a slush but won't expand and isn't a problem for a system that
isn't running so that it has to pump the stuff around.

The straight RV stuff , without corrosion inhibitors, says "No Mixing
Required" right on the bottle.

--

Roger Long



"Rich Hampel" wrote in message
...
50% ethylene glycol and 50% water will take you down to -20degrees
F.

100% antifreeze 'probably' (no guarantee) wont harm the block
because
just about all substances on earth get smaller when they get colder.
Water is an exception however and becomes less dense and 'larger' at
near its freezing point; hence, the need to add antifreeze, .....
the
getting 'larger' produces the pressure to break castings, etc.

Incidentally ---- If water didnt have this 'little quirk' property,
all
the ice in the ocean would fall to bottom of the ocean, never thaw,
and
the highest ocean temperature in mid summer (thawed surface ice)
would
be only 4 degrees Celsius .... and there wouldnt be much life on
earth.
Be very thankful that frozen water floats.

Looks like you should drain the antifreeze, add water (the mix
ratios
are usually listed on the side of the container) and reinstall.to be
absolutely safe.



In article , Roger Long
wrote:

"Rich Hampel" wrote in

100% antifreeze will freeze as solid as a brick.


Yikes! Will it freeze hard enough to crack an engine block or is
it
just like salt water slush? The yard service manager who told me
how
to winterize the engine didn't say anything about mixing it with
water.

Antifreeze?
 

Roger Long wrote:
****.

Took the word right out of my mouth.
This is _not_ good news for me.
WHy the effing hell did I not know this?

Antifreeze?
 

"The straight RV stuff"...are you talking about the red -non toxic
fluid for winterizing the potabke water system?... That isn't designed
for your engine, it's for your plumbing...
If not, and you're referring to a glycol based anti-freeze, the reason
no mixing is required is that you are buying a jug of 50% water....it's
a lot cheaper to buy it undiluted and add your own water....I know you
already have done your winterization, I'm just pointing out the
difference....

regards,
markvictor
http://groups.google.com/group/badboatbiz

Antifreeze?
 

Roger Long wrote:
I went to check our boat today. It was 50 degrees here on the coast of
Maine. That should make anyone who ever spent a winter in this part of
the world believe in global warming.


I'm a global warming believer (duh), but this insanely mild winter
we're having so far here in the northeast (I'm in Long Island, temps in
the 50's yesterday, today, tomorrow) is actually
kind of contradictory to most of the global warming theory I've heard,
which suggests that the result will be colder winters here in the
short-term (basically from the cold water from melting glaciers being
added into the ocean streams, that's my very simplistic understanding).
Of course short-term and anecdotal weather patterns and occurrences
don't have anything much to do with the big picture either way.

richforman

When I winterized the boat, I pumped three gallons of antifreeze into
the bilge by turning the wrong valve and then forgot to pump it out.
When I looked in today, there were clumps of white crust floating
around on top of it that turned out to be ice.

What's going on here? The bilge was pretty dry last fall so it isn't
diluted and I can see that no water has been getting into the boat by
the level. I sure hope it isn't freezing in the engine.

--

Roger Long

Antifreeze?
 

I used the right stuff in the fresh water piping and the right stuff
in the engine. Both are happy.

--

Roger Long



"Dave" wrote in message
...
On 13 Jan 2006 07:01:01 -0800, "markvictor"
said:

"The straight RV stuff"...are you talking about the red -non toxic
fluid for winterizing the potabke water system?... That isn't
designed
for your engine, it's for your plumbing...

Actually, two types of it are sold. One has a corrosion inhibitor
and is for
engines. The other doesn't.

Antifreeze?
 

Yes, I bump into a lot of physical oceanographers in my business and
they tell me that ice ages are actually global warming events.

--

Roger Long



wrote in message
oups.com...

Roger Long wrote:
I went to check our boat today. It was 50 degrees here on the coast
of
Maine. That should make anyone who ever spent a winter in this part
of
the world believe in global warming.


I'm a global warming believer (duh), but this insanely mild winter
we're having so far here in the northeast (I'm in Long Island, temps
in
the 50's yesterday, today, tomorrow) is actually
kind of contradictory to most of the global warming theory I've
heard,
which suggests that the result will be colder winters here in the
short-term (basically from the cold water from melting glaciers
being
added into the ocean streams, that's my very simplistic
understanding).
Of course short-term and anecdotal weather patterns and occurrences
don't have anything much to do with the big picture either way.

richforman

When I winterized the boat, I pumped three gallons of antifreeze
into
the bilge by turning the wrong valve and then forgot to pump it
out.
When I looked in today, there were clumps of white crust floating
around on top of it that turned out to be ice.

What's going on here? The bilge was pretty dry last fall so it
isn't
diluted and I can see that no water has been getting into the boat
by
the level. I sure hope it isn't freezing in the engine.

--

Roger Long

Antifreeze?
 

And there were no suv's and powerplants and factories before the last
ice age...

Antifreeze?
 

Duh! dave, no kidding? geez...

Antifreeze?
 

markvictor wrote:
And there were no suv's and powerplants and factories before the last
ice age...

and Thank-You, wise Sir Bedevere for _your_ insightful observations

Antifreeze?
 

No, but the rational for limiting greenhouse gasses in what history
now shows us to be a very chaotic and unstable atmosphere subject to
sudden dramatic changes is similar to not smoking in a room full of
open gas cans. Your cigarette may not set them off and they may go
off by themselves but, why risk it?

--

Roger Long



"markvictor" wrote in message
ups.com...
And there were no suv's and powerplants and factories before the
last
ice age...

Antifreeze?
 

Now if only you could stop volcanos from erupting....

Antifreeze?
 

If you want to discuss boats, Dave, then you're in the right place, if
you're trolling for arguments,try your local tavern, and if it's
enlightenment you're seeking, try Krishnamurti.

Antifreeze?
 

Come on Dave, tell the truth...You're really Harry Krause....

Antifreeze?
 

Here's a test that will help satisfy your curiosity.....
Drain off a cup ful of the antifreeze.... take it home and heat it to
about 180 degrees F on the stove top (use a candy thermometer) then if
its propyleneglycol use the test strips ( get them in an atuo supply
shop) to find out the freezing point of the mix; if ethylene glycol
take the same cupful, heat to 180degrees and get an inexpensive
'antifreeze' indidcator form an auto suipply store (with the teeny
little balls inside of a plast tube) and check it.
IKf either of these checks indicate near 100% cencentration of the
antifreeze, then drain some of it and add the proper mixture based on
the expected low temperature. :-)



In article , Dave
wrote:

On 13 Jan 2006 07:01:01 -0800, "markvictor" said:

"The straight RV stuff"...are you talking about the red -non toxic
fluid for winterizing the potabke water system?... That isn't designed
for your engine, it's for your plumbing...

Actually, two types of it are sold. One has a corrosion inhibitor and is for
engines. The other doesn't.

Antifreeze?
 

Now thats like saying that one should stop swallowing because salive
'may' cause cancer. g

In article , Roger Long
wrote:

No, but the rational for limiting greenhouse gasses in what history
now shows us to be a very chaotic and unstable atmosphere subject to
sudden dramatic changes is similar to not smoking in a room full of
open gas cans. Your cigarette may not set them off and they may go
off by themselves but, why risk it?

Antifreeze? somewhat OT
 

I labelled this post "somewhat OT" because as the oceans
become toxic gunk our sailing becomes less & less enjoyable.
And increased hurricanes make our insurance premiums go up.

No, but the rational for limiting greenhouse gasses in what history
now shows us to be a very chaotic and unstable atmosphere subject to
sudden dramatic changes is similar to not smoking in a room full of
open gas cans. Your cigarette may not set them off and they may go
off by themselves but, why risk it?


Rich Hampel wrote:
Now thats like saying that one should stop swallowing because salive
'may' cause cancer. g

Umm, no.

It's like saying you shouldn't make bad situation worse.

Dave's statement about "costs" is just plain stupid... can
you breathe & drink money?

I will never understand how the attitude that we should go
ahead and screw up the environment just because there's
still some left became "conservative."

Regards
Doug King

Antifreeze? somewhat OT
 

I will never understand how the attitude that we should go ahead and
screw up the environment just because there's still some left became
"conservative."

Yes, wouldn't it be nice (and an utter surprise in today's political
climate) if the "conservatives" actually wanted to conserve something?

--

Roger Long

Antifreeze?
 

Dave, calm down... it wasn't more than a mild rebuke.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On 13 Jan 2006 13:15:30 -0800, "markvictor"
said:

If you want to discuss boats, Dave, then you're in the right place, if
you're trolling for arguments,try your local tavern, and if it's
enlightenment you're seeking, try Krishnamurti.

Hey Schmuck, I'm a peaceable guy. You threw out the first insult. See
.

Ya wanna get in a ****ing contest, ya gotta be damned sure you can ****
longer and further than the other guy.

Antifreeze? somewhat OT
 

ummmmmm Dave, if you look back in history you will find that most of
the conservation was accomplished by 'conservatives'. You can start
with Gifford Pinchot, Teddy Rooseveldt, etc. and work your way up to
the present day. On the other hand the 'liberal' method is to simply
cry about everything (perceived) ... and then ultimately do nothing.
big g

In article , Roger Long
wrote:


I will never understand how the attitude that we should go ahead and
screw up the environment just because there's still some left became
"conservative."

Yes, wouldn't it be nice (and an utter surprise in today's political
climate) if the "conservatives" actually wanted to conserve something?

Antifreeze?
 

Whatever you say Harry

Antifreeze? somewhat OT
 

Dave IS Harry...

Antifreeze? somewhat OT
 

Ok, so how much is a planet that will support life worth?

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:59:22 -0500, DSK said:

Dave's statement about "costs" is just plain stupid... can
you breathe & drink money?

On the contrary, thinking in black and white terms like "pollution is
evil"
and ignoring the costs of combating the evil is simplistic. If the costs
of
reducing greenhouse gases by 50% would consume 10% of your income, would
you
think that a worthwhile expenditure? What if it were 25%? 50%? 75%? Same
answer in each case?

We can have different views as to what the costs would be and where the
balance should be struck. But only a religious zealot of the green variety
would claim the balancing of costs and benefits is irrelevant.

Antifreeze? somewhat OT
 

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 23:37:09 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote:

ummmmmm Dave, if you look back in history you will find that most of
the conservation was accomplished by 'conservatives'. You can start
with Gifford Pinchot, Teddy Rooseveldt, etc. and work your way up to
the present day. On the other hand the 'liberal' method is to simply
cry about everything (perceived) ... and then ultimately do nothing.
big g

That's fine, but I haven't seen an American conservative since
Eisenhower, or a Canadian one since...well, I've never seen a Canadian
one.

A true conservative doesn't give a damn about religion or issues
stemming from that morass, rightly deeming it the private concern of
the individual.

Lest this go all political, I will say that the sailing temperament is
conservative in parts and anarchic in others. Which sounds
libertarian, but they never want to help bail, so screw 'em.

R.

Antifreeze? somewhat OT
 

That's what Harry Krause would say...

Antifreeze? somewhat OT
 

On 14 Jan 2006 12:47:04 -0800, "markvictor"
wrote:

That's what Harry Krause would say...

In addition to being unable to read headers, you clearly seem inclined
to shoot off your mouth without investigating the facts. About the
only similarities in content between Krause's posts and mine are that
both of us seem to be direct and outspoken, and neither of us archives
his posts. Our politics are poles apart.

Antifreeze? somewhat OT
 

The header was about anti -freeze d Dave....what are you rambling on
about?
Still seeking enlightenment perhaps?

Antifreeze? somewhat OT
 

Subject: Antifreeze? somewhat OT
Date: 14 Jan 2006 14:04:06 -0800
That's from the header Dave....

Antifreeze? somewhat OT
 

Oh, and I find it strange that you would use the term edification after
your statements about zealots and Jehovah's witnesses, Dave...

Antifreeze? somewhat OT
 

Oh, but I do Dave, as I am aware of your multiple addys, and, truth be
told I wasn't really implying that you were Harry, you just act like
him, and blow gaskets like him..
And, as for irrelevance, it is you who were off topic with your
political and religious babble.but perhaps that's due to your inability
to grasp the concept of posting about boats to a boating group....if
this is your idea of rec. boat cruising topical discussion, it's
probably safe to say that you would be best suited for single-handed
voyages...

Antifreeze? somewhat OT
 

Dave,
So sorry to here about your recent illness...Rectal cranial inversion
must be hell...
And if YOU could read a header, you would see the words"somewhat off
topic"
Now, pay attention to this part...That would infer that we were also
somewhat on topic, but not you ,Davey boy, you were foisting your
politics and views on religion onto the boating majority. (Perhaps you
thought it was the "voting" majority..) Do you even own a boat Dave?
I'm not going to touch the address issue, if 21 is a concept you can't
comprehend,
I can't help you anyway. Why are you such a bitter old soul Dave? You
took a liitle good natured humor and turned it into a pus-filled
festering sore...Forget seeking enlightenment, Just crawl back under
your bridge, Troll...

Antifreeze? somewhat OT
 

On 15 Jan 2006 17:26:42 -0800, "markvictor"
wrote:

you were foisting your
politics and views on religion onto the boating majority

Ah, so you only want to see posts supporting your political views. Got
it.

Oh, and BTW, my posts referred to religion twice:

only a religious zealot of the green variety
would claim the balancing of costs and benefits is irrelevant.

and

Ok, so how much is a planet that will support life worth?

When a Jehovah's Witness knocks on my door I tell him to go away.

Neither was an expression of relious views. Each is what is called a
"metaphor." Look it up in your dictionary. It may take you a while,
but see if you can figure out why neither statement expresses a
religious view.

I'm not going to touch the address issue

IOW, your were again running off at the mouth before engaging your
brain.

Antifreeze? somewhat OT
 

On 15 Jan 2006 17:26:42 -0800, "markvictor"
wrote:

Do you even own a boat Dave?

I've probably been sailing since before you were born, sonny.

Antifreeze? somewhat OT
 

No, Davey, the truth is, I don't give a rat's anus about what YOUR
political views are,and if it makes little davey feel better, change
that from views on religion to views on people with religious beliefs,
which makes your statements even that much more inappropriate,
easpecially on a BOATING FORUM.....did you get that davey, this is a
BOATING FORUM
Look that up in your own dictionary if you ever find a doctor willing
to treat you for that rectal cranial inversion....are you on medicare
Davey? I noticed you shy away from answering when I asked you if you
have a boat...Maybe if you had one you would be more interested in
talking about BOATS.Maybe your nurse will get you a little dinghy for
your bathtub...So good luck barking up your own backside Davey.You are
now the sole contestant in a one man ****ing contest(as you like to
call it)...too bad you're incontinent.....And alone...or perhaps a
krishna could visit you under your bridge to enlighten you...See ya
Davey boy...I am so done with you...and do us all a favor, go run for
office or something and stay away from the water...That's where the
BOATS are ......