"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 15:24:19 -0500, "Skip Gundlach" skipgundlach at gmail
dotcom said:

So, if I understand vented loops properly, suction gets air, rather than
water, thus preventing siphoning. So, how do you suck in the supply water
if the supply line is vented???

Peggy has already explained that the vented loop goes between the pump and

"Already," after I'd posted my question...

the head bowl, not between the pump and the intake. On the upstroke, the
pump applies suction to draw water in through the intake, and that suction
isn't broken since there's no vent in the line it's pulling on. On the
downstroke the pump is applying pressure to push the water from the pump
to
the head bowl. That pressure closes the vent valve, since it's from inside
the line, not outside the line.

and


"Peggie Hall" wrote in message
om...
Skip, have you ever bothered to the read the manual for your toilet? It
includes drawings showing the locations for both discharge and intake
vented loops.

No, Peggie, to your question, having not had a manual (or at least, that
we've discovered, yet, having moved the entire interior contents of the boat
not less than 3 times in the course of our refit) for our Raritan PHIIs, I
didn't see anything to that effect. Or the question would not have arisen.
Despite my quest for clarity and understanding on things I've not dealt with
many times already, I do have a mechanical bent and a better than ordinary
spatial perception. Given my situation (see below), which I assumed to not
be atypical, I couldn't readily make the leap to "outflow" rather than
"inflow" in the supply line chain. On my boat, the outflow hose(s) is/are
about 6" long, going directly from the pump to the intake on the bowl, which
I assumed to be standard.

Earlier (way earlier, maybe a year, in a thread about LectraSans) I
commented about the extraordinarily long runs in the aft head. The removal
of the LS makes the exhaust run only about 15 feet, total (counting the 3'
up and down it has to go to the vented loop top). However, I infer from
what I see in the thread, now, that I'm looking at something similar for our
intake.

Our intake is on the other side of the keel from the exhaust, both of which
are in front of the head (well, technically, aft of the head, but in front
of how you'd sit, rear [pardon the expression] facing, on the stool). The
only cosmetically acceptable location for a vented loop is in the engine
room, about 4' or more from the thru hull, not counting the up-and-down to
get to the pump from under the sole and raised stool location. It would
also mean another hole in the stool deck (one to go from the pump, out and
under to the engine room, and the other, original, to go back in, to go to
the toilet supply).

From all the preceding vented loop discussion, as much rube goldberg as that
seems, it's what's needed? Or, every time the head's used, the t/h valve
gets closed? There *is* a handle'd valve on both terlets' intake hoses.
Perhaps that's what it's about? Aside from the nuisance value of that, does
that suffice?

Thanks. I'm not really dense - I just want to make sure I don't screw up,
and I've not dealt with marine sanitation all my adult life...

L8R

Skip, still ashore, but getting closer to stepping aboard and cutting the
cord as PT progresses apace


--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her

The Society for the Preservation of Tithesis commends your ebriated
and scrutible use of delible and defatigable, which are gainly, sipid
and couth. We are gruntled and consolate that you have the ertia and
eptitude to choose such putably pensible tithesis, which we parage.

Stamp out Sesquipedalianism

Skip Gundlach wrote:
On my boat, the outflow hose(s) is/are
about 6" long, going directly from the pump to the intake on the bowl, which
I assumed to be standard.

Standard as all toilets come from the factory, but not necessarily an
installation that meets safety standards.

Earlier (way earlier, maybe a year, in a thread about LectraSans) I
commented about the extraordinarily long runs in the aft head. The removal
of the LS makes the exhaust run only about 15 feet, total (counting the 3'
up and down it has to go to the vented loop top).

That's still too long...

The
only cosmetically acceptable location...

Arrrrrgggghhhhh!!!!!! The obsession with "cosmetically acceptable"
locations for safety equipment on a boat is a recent innovation that
never existed before the industry began marketing boats to people who
don't really want a BOAT, they want an RV--or worse yet, a luxury
condo--that floats. No...vented loops and seacocks are NOT "decor"
items...but before decor trumped safety, that didn't concern owners. Put
the bloomin' loop(s) where it(they) belongs--above the toilet on the
bulkhead behind it. Email me--peg(dot)hall(at)sbcglobal(dot)net--and
I'll send you or anyone else who wants one a photo of the correct
installation. If that's "cosmetically unacceptable," build a teak,
mahogany, plywood, formica--whatever you consider to BE "cosmetically
acceptable!"--box to cover it and the plumbing. Just make it removeable
so you can service the air valve in the loop and check the hose clamps etc.

As for the manual for your PH II, you can download and print one from
he http://www.raritaneng.com/tech_suppo...s_manuals.html

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

"Peggie Hall" wrote in message
om...
Skip Gundlach wrote:
Earlier (way earlier, maybe a year, in a thread about LectraSans) I
commented about the extraordinarily long runs in the aft head. The
removal of the LS makes the exhaust run only about 15 feet, total
(counting the 3' up and down it has to go to the vented loop top).

That's still too long...

In ordering the parts needed to repair the forward head, I see that there's
a straightline joker outflow. That will cut about 3' off the aft head run,
so I've ordered it...


As for the manual for your PH II, you can download and print one from
he http://www.raritaneng.com/tech_suppo...s_manuals.html


Well, having just returned from the boat, and, also, having gotten a copy of
the owner's manual for our heads, I see:

The owner's manual shows vented loops, but I'd missed them in my prior
perusal online of them, as it's so counter-intuitive given the short,
direct, installation of the line between the pump and the bowl.

However, the OM also shows the "TWK" which is for odor control and
lubrication, using "Raritan Concentrate #CON22". Your prior comments
indicated you thought odor control - through these presumed expensive
options, which our boat had - unnecessary - but this refers also to
lubrication. Given the challenge and cost of rebuilds, I'm wondering about
that part of it. In the past, your description(s) of how to
(preventatively) lube a head left me scratching mine (head) as ours didn't
seem to fit the description.

So, how does one (preventive maintenance) lube a PHII without disassembly?

Secondly, referring to another part of this thread, I see in our heads that
a proper shutoff is immediately adjacent to the intake to the pump body (see
my December gallery for illustration, as I redid the intake to that point).
If placarded for guests, and known for us, to have that shut when not in
operation, does that suffice and is it recommended procedure vs the
antisiphon loop?

Thanks.

L8R

Skip, in rehab, closer to climbing aboard


--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

Skip Gundlach wrote:
The owner's manual shows vented loops, but I'd missed them in my
prior perusal online of them, as it's so counter-intuitive given the
short, direct, installation of the line between the pump and the
bowl.

It's only counter-intuitive if you don't read the directions.

However, the OM also shows the "TWK" which is for odor control and
lubrication, using "Raritan Concentrate #CON22". Your prior comments
indicated you thought odor control - through these presumed
expensive options, which our boat had - unnecessary - but this refers
also to lubrication.

You don't need the TWK (toilet water kit)...It doesn't lubricate any
better than plain water does. Raritan Concentrate is a nasty chemical
(quaternary ammonium compound) left over from the days when all toilets
flushed directly overboard. Its only real purpose was to "sanitize" the
waste slightly to reduce odor as it went out. Raritan has strongly
considered discontinuing it, but still sell enough of it that they keep
talking themselves out of doing so.

So, how does one (preventive maintenance) lube a PHII without
disassembly?

One doesn't. But it's not THAT much of a PITA to lift the pump off
the base and shoot some teflon grease into it just once or twice a year.

Secondly, referring to another part of this thread, I see in our
heads that a proper shutoff...

I'm not sure what you mean by "proper shutoff"...seacock?

... is immediately adjacent to the intake to
the pump body (see my December gallery for illustration, as I redid
the intake to that point). If placarded for guests, and known for us,
to have that shut when not in operation, does that suffice and is it
recommended procedure vs the antisiphon loop?

No. Neither a seacock nor any other shutoff valve in a line is a
substitute for a vented loop...they serve two completely different
functions in addition to protecting people from themselves. All the good
intentions and placards in the world cannot guarantee that no one will
ever neglect to close a seacock or never leave the toilet in the "wet" mode.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

"Peggie Hall" wrote in message
news
Skip Gundlach wrote:
The owner's manual shows vented loops, but I'd missed them in my
prior perusal online of them, as it's so counter-intuitive given the
short, direct, installation of the line between the pump and the
bowl.

It's only counter-intuitive if you don't read the directions.

Heh. Having found them installed already, I missed that part :{))


However, the OM also shows the "TWK" which is for odor control and
lubrication, using "Raritan Concentrate #CON22". Your prior comments
indicated you thought odor control - through these presumed
expensive options, which our boat had - unnecessary - but this refers
also to lubrication.

You don't need the TWK (toilet water kit)...It doesn't lubricate any
better than plain water does. Raritan Concentrate is a nasty chemical
(quaternary ammonium compound) left over from the days when all toilets
flushed directly overboard. Its only real purpose was to "sanitize" the
waste slightly to reduce odor as it went out. Raritan has strongly
considered discontinuing it, but still sell enough of it that they keep
talking themselves out of doing so.

So, how does one (preventive maintenance) lube a PHII without
disassembly?

One doesn't. But it's not THAT much of a PITA to lift the pump off
the base and shoot some teflon grease into it just once or twice a year.

Secondly, referring to another part of this thread, I see in our
heads that a proper shutoff...

I'm not sure what you mean by "proper shutoff"...seacock?

Yes - seacock.
http://justpickone.org/skip/gallery/...ber& start=65
has a couple of pictures of the forward head's unit; the aft head's is in
the base next to the pump, but identical, triangular-based, barbed-end unit.

... is immediately adjacent to the intake to
the pump body (see my December gallery for illustration, as I redid
the intake to that point). If placarded for guests, and known for us,
to have that shut when not in operation, does that suffice and is it
recommended procedure vs the antisiphon loop?

No. Neither a seacock nor any other shutoff valve in a line is a
substitute for a vented loop...they serve two completely different
functions in addition to protecting people from themselves. All the good
intentions and placards in the world cannot guarantee that no one will
ever neglect to close a seacock or never leave the toilet in the "wet"
mode.

Well, I agree about the "wet" bit - but, since our now-long-ago discussion
of dry pumping, that's going to be the requirement, regardless of above or
below the waterline, as I'd like nothing better than to have empty pipes
(other than the exhaust part below the waterline, of course).

Thanks for the input. Got any recommendations for teflon grease supply?

L8R

Skip


--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her

The Society for the Preservation of Tithesis commends your ebriated
and scrutible use of delible and defatigable, which are gainly, sipid
and couth. We are gruntled and consolate that you have the ertia and
eptitude to choose such putably pensible tithesis, which we parage.

Stamp out Sesquipedalianism

Skip Gundlach wrote:
Thanks for the input. Got any recommendations for teflon grease supply?

SuperLube is the best IMO...they make a whole range of greases, so you
only want the thick teflon grease in a tube, not the the spray or
liquid. It's also good for y-valves, diaphragm pumps and any other pump
that stays wet. A $3.95 tube of it should last you several years.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304