Jonathan Ganz wrote:

In article ,
Jim Cate wrote:


And most of those "real sailors," as you call them have never sailed a
Mac. -  A few have, but most wouldn't want to get on a Mac for fear
that one of their  "real sailor" buddies might see them and look down
their noses at them.  (I suggest that those who enjoy getting
"atta-boys" by criticising the Macs on this ng should at least provide
a disclaimer if they haven't sailed one of the recent (26M) models.  In
other words, a disclaimer telling us that they really don't know what
the hell they are talking about.)br



I have. I think their garbage boats. You're just upset because you
bought a piece of junk.


Which models have you sailed, and under what circumstances? Have you
sailed the current model (the 26M)? They include several fairly
significant changes.



Bottom line: The Macs aren't ocean-crossing, blue water boats, but they
are, nevertheless, still fun to sail. br



YEah, in very protected waters, in very limited situations. Good for
you.. enjoy your Mac.


Very limited situations, in very protected waters? I agree that the Mac
isn't a good choice for an ocean crossing, and that their owners need to
know their boats' limitations, monitor the weather, etc. But if you
check trip reports on some of the Mac discussion groups, you would see
discussions from Mac owners who sail in a variety of waters in many
interesting locations around the world. Those in California, where the
boat is manufactured, sail in San Francisco Bay, often in high wind
conditions. Those near LA sail and/or motor offshore to Catalina Island,
etc. (They have the option of motoring out in two hours after work on a
Friday, then spending two days of sailing and exploring the area, then
returning by sail or motor Sunday afternoon or Monday morning.) - For
example, according to one recent report, there were more than 10 Macs
anchored at Catalina when the owner sailed there one weekend. Another
report was from a Mac owner who has sailed on several extended trips
near Marina Del Ray to the Channel Islands, from Oxnard. Of course, it's
also true that some Mac owners sail in lakes.... like, Lake Ontario,
Lake Michigan, etc. In New England, Mac owners sail from various areas
up and down the coast, and, and between Cape Cod, Buzzards Bay, etc. In
Florida, they sail offshore from Pensacola, or down the keys to Key
West, and from Key West out to the Tortugas. Others have sailed to the
Bahamas. In Europe, they sail in the Mediterranean, and in waters near
the British Isles. Also, there seem to be lots of Macs sailing from
Australia.

Of course, with a Mac you aren't limited to sailing from one home port
or sailing primarily in one region. If you have a week's vacation and
want to go to somewhere new, you can easily trailer the boat to a port
of your choice. E.g., north in the summer, and south in winter.

So, you were saying that Macs are restricted to "very limited
situations"? Really? - Seems to me that Mac owners have some pretty
interesting options.

Jim

In article ,
Jim Cate wrote:
I have. I think their garbage boats. You're just upset because you
bought a piece of junk.

Which models have you sailed, and under what circumstances? Have you
sailed the current model (the 26M)? They include several fairly
significant changes.

If I told you, would you believe me... doubt it.

Would you believe me if I told you that I know a major dealer of them
in this area and even he thinks they're crap... doubt it.

YEah, in very protected waters, in very limited situations. Good for
you.. enjoy your Mac.


Very limited situations, in very protected waters? I agree that the Mac
isn't a good choice for an ocean crossing, and that their owners need to
bs deleted

It's nice when we agree.

Of course, with a Mac you aren't limited to sailing from one home port
or sailing primarily in one region. If you have a week's vacation and
want to go to somewhere new, you can easily trailer the boat to a port
of your choice. E.g., north in the summer, and south in winter.

Yep. Put it on a trailer and go to a nice quiet lake. I'm sure that
would be fine.

So, you were saying that Macs are restricted to "very limited
situations"? Really? - Seems to me that Mac owners have some pretty
interesting options.

Well, dumpster divers find pretty interesting things, but I wouldn't
want to be one.



--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

In article ,
Jim Cate wrote:


I have. I think their garbage boats. You're just upset because you
bought a piece of junk.



Which models have you sailed, and under what circumstances? Have you
sailed the current model (the 26M)? They include several fairly
significant changes.



If I told you, would you believe me... doubt it.


Try me.


Would you believe me if I told you that I know a major dealer of them
in this area and even he thinks they're crap... doubt it.



Shouldn't he consider some other kind of work? - There doesn't seem to
be a great deal of profit running a Mac dealership.

YEah, in very protected waters, in very limited situations. Good for
you.. enjoy your Mac.



Very limited situations, in very protected waters? I agree that the Mac
isn't a good choice for an ocean crossing, and that their owners need to


bs deleted

It's nice when we agree.


Johnny, seems to me that, if the Macs are simply a pile of junk as you
keep saying, we would see thousands of them breaking apart in any winds
higher than 15 knots or so, and we would see reports of hundreds of
skippers and passengers drowned or stranded on capsized boats.
Particularly since the Macs have been one of the most popular lines ever
made, with over 40,000 of them sold, reports of failures should be all
over the place. I spend a lot of time on the Mac discussion groups, and
I read lots of reports and sailing mags, and I don't remember seeing
accounts of any Macs that simply fell apart, or any on which the owners
or passengers were drowned, etc., other than the one in which a drunk
skipper rolled an overloaded Mac 26X with no ballast. As in any boat,
repairs are sometimes needed, but the Mac owners keep on sailing their
boats year after year, and when they want to trade, most of them seem to
buy a newer Mac.- In any event, with that many boats out there, and if
they are just a pile of junk as you say, surely hundreds of them would
have simply fallen apart or capsized by this time.

So, it should be fairly easy for you to cite some statisticsbacking up
your ridiculous assertions. Could you do that for us, Johnny? - If you
aren't just blowing smoke, that is.

Jim

In article ,
Jim Cate wrote:
Try me.

Thanks, but no thanks.

Would you believe me if I told you that I know a major dealer of them
in this area and even he thinks they're crap... doubt it.

Shouldn't he consider some other kind of work? - There doesn't seem to
be a great deal of profit running a Mac dealership.

On the contrary. He makes tons of money from people like you! A true
capitalist.

Johnny, seems to me that, if the Macs are simply a pile of junk as you
keep saying, we would see thousands of them breaking apart in any winds

Well, it seems to you.

Particularly since the Macs have been one of the most popular lines ever
made, with over 40,000 of them sold, reports of failures should be all
over the place. I spend a lot of time on the Mac discussion groups, and

McDonalds makes billions of burgers, but I wouldn't want to eat them
on a regular basis.

Perhaps too much time...

I read lots of reports and sailing mags, and I don't remember seeing
accounts of any Macs that simply fell apart, or any on which the owners
or passengers were drowned, etc., other than the one in which a drunk
skipper rolled an overloaded Mac 26X with no ballast. As in any boat,

You're really obsessed with Macs breaking up...

So, it should be fairly easy for you to cite some statisticsbacking up
your ridiculous assertions. Could you do that for us, Johnny? - If you
aren't just blowing smoke, that is.

Assertions of what? They're junky, they look like it, they sail like
it. There are no statistics needed.
--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

In article ,
Jim Cate wrote:


Try me.



Thanks, but no thanks.



Would you believe me if I told you that I know a major dealer of them
in this area and even he thinks they're crap... doubt it.


Shouldn't he consider some other kind of work? - There doesn't seem to
be a great deal of profit running a Mac dealership.



On the contrary. He makes tons of money from people like you! A true
capitalist.



Then he must be selling other boats in addition to the Macs. (Right?) I
don't see many Mac dealers making a big profit. - Most of them seem to
be in because they like sailing and like the Macs.



Johnny, seems to me that, if the Macs are simply a pile of junk as you
keep saying, we would see thousands of them breaking apart in any winds



Well, it seems to you.



What are you saying, Johnnny? That they don't fall apart or break up?
That even though you think the Macs are a pile of junk, they still just
keep on sailing? - You're not making much sense.




Particularly since the Macs have been one of the most popular lines ever
made, with over 40,000 of them sold, reports of failures should be all
over the place. I spend a lot of time on the Mac discussion groups, and



McDonalds makes billions of burgers, but I wouldn't want to eat them
on a regular basis.

Perhaps too much time...



You're missing the point again, Johnny. The fact that MacGregor sells
lots of boats wasn't mentioned as evidence that their boats are of
high quality (although they are). Instead, the point was that, with
that many boats out there, and with thousands of owners, passengers,
observers, reviewers, etc. aware of them, if they were inherently
dangerous, or if they fell apart or capsized, etc., (if they were just a
pile of junk, as you say), that fact would be well-known throughout the
sailing community. - So far, however, you can't come up with any
evidence or statistics to back up your ridiculous assertions. Kind of
embarrassing John?



I read lots of reports and sailing mags, and I don't remember seeing
accounts of any Macs that simply fell apart, or any on which the owners
or passengers were drowned, etc., other than the one in which a drunk
skipper rolled an overloaded Mac 26X with no ballast. As in any boat,



You're really obsessed with Macs breaking up...


You're obsessed with calling them a pile of junk. Could you possibly
come up with another term Johnny?




So, it should be fairly easy for you to cite some statisticsbacking up
your ridiculous assertions. Could you do that for us, Johnny? - If you
aren't just blowing smoke, that is.



Assertions of what? They're junky, they look like it, they sail like
it. There are no statistics needed.


If they were just a pile of junk, as you say, and if their rigging were
not built appropriately for the loads, they would be failing, capsizing,
and breaking up after a few months of use in moderate winds. - But they
aren't, and that's why you are having trouble backing up your ridiculous
statements. - Put up or shut up Johnny!

Jim

In article ,
Jim Cate wrote:
Then he must be selling other boats in addition to the Macs. (Right?) I
don't see many Mac dealers making a big profit. - Most of them seem to
be in because they like sailing and like the Macs.

No. He makes the money from the fools who buy the pieces of crap!

Well, it seems to you.

What are you saying, Johnnny? That they don't fall apart or break up?
That even though you think the Macs are a pile of junk, they still just
keep on sailing? - You're not making much sense.

No. They mostly don't sail much of anywhere in the conditions that
would cause them to break up and sink.

McDonalds makes billions of burgers, but I wouldn't want to eat them
on a regular basis.

Perhaps too much time...

You're missing the point again, Johnny. The fact that MacGregor sells
lots of boats wasn't mentioned as evidence that their boats are of
high quality (although they are). Instead, the point was that, with

Gee, really? Seems like it to me, but feel free to try an justify your
poor choice of boats.

You're really obsessed with Macs breaking up...

You're obsessed with calling them a pile of junk. Could you possibly
come up with another term Johnny?

At least I'm being accurate! Ok... they're composed of many pieces of
junk!

Assertions of what? They're junky, they look like it, they sail like
it. There are no statistics needed.


If they were just a pile of junk, as you say, and if their rigging were
not built appropriately for the loads, they would be failing, capsizing,
and breaking up after a few months of use in moderate winds. - But they
aren't, and that's why you are having trouble backing up your ridiculous
statements. - Put up or shut up Johnny!

Their rigging is minimal at best. It's quite appropriate for protected
waters found on some lakes. Any other place, and they won't last long.

No problem backing up any of my statements, as they are my opinion
based on observation.... Jimmmy.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

In article ,
Jim Cate wrote:


Then he must be selling other boats in addition to the Macs. (Right?) I
don't see many Mac dealers making a big profit. - Most of them seem to
be in because they like sailing and like the Macs.



No. He makes the money from the fools who buy the pieces of crap!



Well, it seems to you.


What are you saying, Johnnny? That they don't fall apart or break up?
That even though you think the Macs are a pile of junk, they still just
keep on sailing? - You're not making much sense.



No. They mostly don't sail much of anywhere in the conditions that
would cause them to break up and sink.



McDonalds makes billions of burgers, but I wouldn't want to eat them
on a regular basis.

Perhaps too much time...


You're missing the point again, Johnny. The fact that MacGregor sells
lots of boats wasn't mentioned as evidence that their boats are of
high quality (although they are). Instead, the point was that, with



Gee, really? Seems like it to me, but feel free to try an justify your
poor choice of boats.



You're really obsessed with Macs breaking up...


You're obsessed with calling them a pile of junk. Could you possibly
come up with another term Johnny?



At least I'm being accurate! Ok... they're composed of many pieces of
junk!



Assertions of what? They're junky, they look like it, they sail like
it. There are no statistics needed.



If they were just a pile of junk, as you say, and if their rigging were
not built appropriately for the loads, they would be failing, capsizing,
and breaking up after a few months of use in moderate winds. - But they
aren't, and that's why you are having trouble backing up your ridiculous
statements. - Put up or shut up Johnny!



Their rigging is minimal at best. It's quite appropriate for protected
waters found on some lakes. Any other place, and they won't last long.


If their rigging is inadequate, then obviously the boats would be
falling apart whenever they are taken out in any significant weather.
With 40,000 of them out there, hundreds of the the boats would be lost
or torn apart every year, and Mac owners and guests would be drowned or
stranded every year. Yet that doesn't happen except in very rare instances.

Where's your evidence that the Mac rigging is failing or coming apart,
Johnny? What statistics do you have on the number of Macson on which
the rigging failed?

No problem backing up any of my statements, as they are my opinion
based on observation.... Jimmmy.


No problem backing up your statements Johnny? Then why don't you get
busy and start? So far all you have done is post more of your ridiculous
biased assertions, with nothing backing them up. Think about how that
makes you look to others monitoring this discussion, John!.

No problem backing up your statements? - Then have at it.

Jim
..

Jim Cate wrote:
... Have you
sailed the current model (the 26M)? They include several fairly
significant changes.


You mean like the fancy new window shape & the (snicker) rotating mast?

The only significant change I've noticed in the boat is that they put a
bit more fiberglass on the transom, which needed it badly, and started
putting in a stronger steering system so it no longer breaks every time
the wind blows more than 12 knots.

(sigh) the things they don't tell you in the advertising brochures!

DSK

DSK wrote:

Jim Cate wrote:

... Have you sailed the current model (the 26M)? They include several
fairly significant changes.


You mean like the fancy new window shape & the (snicker) rotating mast?

The only significant change I've noticed in the boat is that they put
a bit more fiberglass on the transom, which needed it badly, and
started putting in a stronger steering system so it no longer breaks
every time the wind blows more than 12 knots.

(sigh) the things they don't tell you in the advertising brochures!

DSK


The M has a completely different hull, with deeper V, and uses a narrow
dagger board instead of a pivotable keel. Because the keel doesn't
pivot back into the hull, there is no six-foot recess or pocket in the
hull for receiving the board, and no corresponding "hump" in the cabin
floor. The mast is several feet higher, and the main has a more narrow
profile. The hull has an additional layer of fiberglass. Additionally,
the boat includes several hundred pounds of fixed ballast, in addition
to the water ballast. There are a number of other changes to the cabin,
cockpit, and exterior.

Jim

Jim

The elitists here who feel that only "traditional" designs belong on
the water need to loosen their yachtie captains hats and get over the
Mac26 and realize that it works very well enabling the less affluent
among us to go sailing and to do far more sailing than those who mainly
sail from yacht club bar stools. In spite of their apocryphal stories
of Mac26 disasters they can never back up, I have read of many great
Mac26 trips including the entire ICW, the inside passage to Alaska,
Catalina, Bahamas. From what I can tell, the current Mac26 is built
better than the original Hunters and some Beneteaus. As far as safety
is concerned, it seems considerably safer than most power boats and a
strong case can be made for it being safer than many other sail boats.