wax and fiberglass/polyester resin
 

I notice on the bottle of polyester resin I got that it says not to mix
the stuff in a waxed paper cup. It's in bold too, so it seems
important. Not only was that how I was going to mix it, but I was going
to lay the material on some wax paper so it won't get glued to the
floor. I have used 2 part epoxy in this fashion and it has worked well
(the epoxy cures and was too flexible, so I'm using polyester.). Does
wax react poorly with polyester resin?

wax and fiberglass/polyester resin
 

On 11 Oct 2005 19:37:44 -0700, wrote:

I notice on the bottle of polyester resin I got that it says not to mix
the stuff in a waxed paper cup. It's in bold too, so it seems
important. Not only was that how I was going to mix it, but I was going
to lay the material on some wax paper so it won't get glued to the
floor. I have used 2 part epoxy in this fashion and it has worked well
(the epoxy cures and was too flexible, so I'm using polyester.). Does
wax react poorly with polyester resin?

One way of producing a polyester gel coat is adding wax. This holds
off the air from the surface, so it does not stay tacky.
Dissolved wax is not the best ingredient for other layers however.

Brian Whatcott

wax and fiberglass/polyester resin
 

There are two types of Polyester resin for fiberglass:
1. Laminating resin .... contains wax that comes to the surface when
curing so that the next layer fully bonds ... the wax is an 'air
inhibitor'. Laminating resins will always feel sticky to the touch
because of the wax. This wax is soluable in liquid polyester.
2. Finishing resin ... contains NO wax and when exposed to air while
curing forms a hard surface

What you have is probably finishing resin .... and any contact with wax
will change it.

So, you cant use wax anywhere near a finishing resin or you'll
contaminate it and begin to turn it into a laminating resin ...... but
you can use SARAN to keep it sticking where you dont want it to.

In article .com,
wrote:

I notice on the bottle of polyester resin I got that it says not to mix
the stuff in a waxed paper cup. It's in bold too, so it seems
important. Not only was that how I was going to mix it, but I was going
to lay the material on some wax paper so it won't get glued to the
floor. I have used 2 part epoxy in this fashion and it has worked well
(the epoxy cures and was too flexible, so I'm using polyester.). Does
wax react poorly with polyester resin?

wax and fiberglass/polyester resin
 

The solvents in polyester resin dissolves wax and the wax prevents bonding
of the next coat. It will eat Styrofoam cups too. Been there, done that,
got the mess on the shop floor to prove it. I eat a lot of cream cheese and
Jell-O pudding just for the plastic cups. :-)

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

wrote in message
oups.com...
I notice on the bottle of polyester resin I got that it says not to mix
the stuff in a waxed paper cup. It's in bold too, so it seems
important. Not only was that how I was going to mix it, but I was going
to lay the material on some wax paper so it won't get glued to the
floor. I have used 2 part epoxy in this fashion and it has worked well
(the epoxy cures and was too flexible, so I'm using polyester.). Does
wax react poorly with polyester resin?

wax and fiberglass/polyester resin
 

So PVDC will peel right off?

wax and fiberglass/polyester resin
 

Rich Hampel wrote:

There are two types of Polyester resin for fiberglass:
1. Laminating resin .... contains wax that comes to the surface when
curing so that the next layer fully bonds ... the wax is an 'air
inhibitor'. Laminating resins will always feel sticky to the touch
because of the wax. This wax is soluable in liquid polyester.
2. Finishing resin ... contains NO wax and when exposed to air while
curing forms a hard surface

What you have is probably finishing resin .... and any contact with wax
will change it.

So, you cant use wax anywhere near a finishing resin or you'll
contaminate it and begin to turn it into a laminating resin ...... but
you can use SARAN to keep it sticking where you dont want it to.

Beg Pardon. I belive you have got it the wrong way round. Last time I
looked at a can of wax in styrene it was to be added to gelcoat or even
laminating resin for the final coat if it was to harden in contact with
air without leaving a tacky surface and was NOT for laminating.

Anyway the OP should just go out and buy a big pack of cheap
PolyPropylene cups. That's 5 or PP in the recycling triangle on the
base. Suitable for nearly all paints ,resins, glues and solvents you are
likely to meet working on boats.

--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL:
'Stingo' Albacore #1554 - 15' Early 60's, Uffa Fox designed,
All varnished hot moulded wooden racing dinghy.

wax and fiberglass/polyester resin
 

So PVDC will peel right off?

I don't know that I would risk it with household Saran wrap. Being very
thin it can tear and leave little bits that are the devil to get off. I
made that mistake with a Saran peelply that was to thin. I needed a lot of
stretch for that particular part. It stretched fine but came off in strips.
Nylon would have been much better.

I generally don't like films as a curing barrier for polyester. A wax
sanding aid additive works better and doesn't disturb the surface.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

wax and fiberglass/polyester resin
 

So I don't know who to listen to. Will wax paper leave me with a
unsuitably sticky surface when cured?
Wax paper would be easier for me to work with than saran.

wax and fiberglass/polyester resin
 

wax and fiberglass/polyester resin
 

your a moron it should be common sense. you dont need details
explanations to fiqure this one out.

wax and fiberglass/polyester resin
 

your a moron it should be common sense. you dont need details
explanations to fiqure this one out.

wax and fiberglass/polyester resin
 

The basic chemical principle is that oxygen greatly slows the rate that
polyester resin cures or "polymerizes" (the molecules link up in long
tangled strings).

The styrene in the resin will dissolve the wax off the paper. As the resin
polymerizes it squeezes the wax back out to the surface forming a thin
film. This film of wax prevents oxygen from reaching the surface so it
cures completely and becomes almost chemically inert. If it is the last
coat that is what you want it do. You can even buy "sanding aids" that are
a solution of wax in styrene to add to the pot while mixing to promote a
hard finish.

However, if you are laying another coat you don't want that. The next coat
will only be mechanically bonded because the polymer strings can't link up
to the strings in the first coat. As polyester is not a very good adhesive
mechanical bonds are not very strong.

OTOH,as long as the resin is exposed to oxygen the molecules at the surface
don't complete the link up so it does not cure completely and remains
chemically active. The next layer of resin will then be able to chemically
link up to the first layer making the whole lay-up a monolithic mass. It
will eventually cure without wax but as long as the next coat goes on within
a few days it will form the chemical bond.

In other words, if you are working with the last coat polyester can (and
should) be exposed to wax. If another coat of polyester will be laid on
top, avoid wax.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

wrote in message
oups.com...
So I don't know who to listen to. Will wax paper leave me with a
unsuitably sticky surface when cured?
Wax paper would be easier for me to work with than saran.

wax and fiberglass/polyester resin
 

ah ha. Completey different explanation from the first posters.
What does the styrene do? Is it just a functional group of the
polyester? You seem to have taken ochem, perhaps if you care to you
could email me the mechanics and all. I suppose I could look it up but
that would be bothersome.

wax and fiberglass/polyester resin
 

Polyester resin is a solution of polyester polymers dissolved in styrene.
Polymer molecules are long strings of atoms. When a small amount of a
catalyst like Methyl Ethyl ketone peroxide is added the
it starts a reaction that makes the styrene molecules attach to the sides of
the polyester molecules linking them together in a 3 dimensional matrix.

for example uncured polyester molecules look like this:

A---B---A---B---A---B---A---B

It reacts with the styrene like this:

A---B---A---B---A---B---A---B A---B---A---B---A---B---A---B
| | | |
| | |
S S S S S
S S
| | | |
| | |
A---B---A---B---A---B---A---B A---B---A---B---A---B---A---B

I am no chemist but as I understand it oxygen molecules will loosely bind
with one side of the styrene molecules preventing the double bond. The
styrene molecule prefers the polyester molecule and eventually cast off the
oxygen in favor of the polyester but the process is slowed.

You want those cross linked molecules between coats so that you get a solid
matrix. If the surface is fully cured because a wax film prevents oxygen
getting to it there will be no free styrene molecules for the next layer to
link up to. The new coat will only be mechanically bonded by hooking into
the nooks and crannies on the surface of the cured coat.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

wrote in message
ups.com...
ah ha. Completey different explanation from the first posters.
What does the styrene do? Is it just a functional group of the
polyester? You seem to have taken ochem, perhaps if you care to you
could email me the mechanics and all. I suppose I could look it up but
that would be bothersome.

wax and fiberglass/polyester resin
 

Well, so much for ASCII art. The lines and Ss are supposed to tie to the
Bs.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:tsr3f.607$Kp4.331@lakeread08...
Polyester resin is a solution of polyester polymers dissolved in styrene.
Polymer molecules are long strings of atoms. When a small amount of a
catalyst like Methyl Ethyl ketone peroxide is added the
it starts a reaction that makes the styrene molecules attach to the sides
of the polyester molecules linking them together in a 3 dimensional
matrix.

for example uncured polyester molecules look like this:

A---B---A---B---A---B---A---B

It reacts with the styrene like this:

A---B---A---B---A---B---A---B A---B---A---B---A---B---A---B
| | | | |
| |
S S S S S
S S
| | | | |
| |
A---B---A---B---A---B---A---B
A---B---A---B---A---B---A---B

I am no chemist but as I understand it oxygen molecules will loosely bind
with one side of the styrene molecules preventing the double bond. The
styrene molecule prefers the polyester molecule and eventually cast off
the oxygen in favor of the polyester but the process is slowed.

You want those cross linked molecules between coats so that you get a
solid matrix. If the surface is fully cured because a wax film prevents
oxygen getting to it there will be no free styrene molecules for the next
layer to link up to. The new coat will only be mechanically bonded by
hooking into the nooks and crannies on the surface of the cured coat.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

wrote in message
ups.com...
ah ha. Completey different explanation from the first posters.
What does the styrene do? Is it just a functional group of the
polyester? You seem to have taken ochem, perhaps if you care to you
could email me the mechanics and all. I suppose I could look it up but
that would be bothersome.

wax and fiberglass/polyester resin
 

all the man wanted to know is if he could mix polyester resin in a wax
cup. was all this explanation necessary? he will have enough trouble
trying to mix it at the proper ratio as it is. then there is the
application....... do i need to know the chemical composition of peanut
butter when I eat it? no.

wax and fiberglass/polyester resin
 

all the man wanted to know is if he could mix polyester resin in a wax
cup. was all this explanation necessary? he will have enough trouble
trying to mix it at the proper ratio as it is. then there is the
application....... do i need to know the chemical composition of peanut
butter when I eat it? no.

wax and fiberglass/polyester resin
 

While the subject is more appropriate to r.b.building the question was
posted here so I answered it here. The curing of polyester is a chemical
reaction. The more you know about it the better able you are to take
advantage of its properties.

The original question required a limited explanation of the chemistry to
answer. The follow up question asked specifically what the styrene did. I
believe I answered that and applied it to the original question.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Meye5" wrote in message
oups.com...
all the man wanted to know is if he could mix polyester resin in a wax
cup. was all this explanation necessary? he will have enough trouble
trying to mix it at the proper ratio as it is. then there is the
application....... do i need to know the chemical composition of peanut
butter when I eat it? no.

wax and fiberglass/polyester resin
 

all you did was confuse the original poster, now he is probably afraid
to ask how to mix it and apply it without being hit with a barrage of
highly technical answers.

wax and fiberglass/polyester resin
 

huh, I imagined the polyester itself was polymerizing. Thanks for the
post.

wax and fiberglass/polyester resin
 

Have you even been reading the posts?