Lake George Capsize
 

Weird.

I would bet that those people who died did not drown but suffered cardiac
arrest upon being plunged suddenly into cold water. Less than 70 F. is
cold.

Lake George Capsize
 

Gogarty wrote:
Weird.

I would bet that those people who died did not drown but suffered cardiac
arrest upon being plunged suddenly into cold water. Less than 70 F. is
cold.


You may well be correct for many of the victims. The human body's
response to sudden immersion in cold water is (like much else in nature)
a bell curve. ~ 5% will be fine, ~30% will feel the shock but able to
recover, ~30 have a more severe shock, ~30% more severe yet, and ~5% may
simply die almost instantly.

Age and fitness probably matter, but I've personally seen (and helped
rescue) a very fit young man (a college soccer star, in fact) lapse
instantly into unconsciousness & heart failure upon immersion in 40
degree water. He fell off a jet ski near shore, would have been an
embarassing way to die.

There are stories of people surviving almost indefinitely while immersed
in cold water, but I've always assumed that these people just
represented that far tip of the bell curve.

One of the reasons I favor Type 3 PFDs over inflatables is that they
offer some insulation for the chest (plus no worries about inflation or
lack thereof).

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Lake George Capsize
 

Lake George is a cold lake.
Just like the Titanic I'll bet that most went into hypothermia, then
drowned as their underlying health problems of 'old age' kicked-in. As
the bodie's 'core' becomes colder and colder there is some protection
mechanism vs. cardiac arrest; its when the body 're-warms' is when
cardiac arrest from ventricular fibrillation becomes extremely
dangerous. Older folks dont have very good 'heat regulation' and with
the onset of hypothermia one loses their ability to control hands, feet
and other voluntary muscles - and their ability to hang-on to an
overturned boat or pfd's that may have floated by.
The wakes on L. George can be monsterous.

In article , Gogarty
wrote:

Weird.

I would bet that those people who died did not drown but suffered cardiac
arrest upon being plunged suddenly into cold water. Less than 70 F. is
cold.

Lake George Capsize
 

In article ,
DSK wrote:

Gogarty wrote:
Weird.

I would bet that those people who died did not drown but suffered cardiac
arrest upon being plunged suddenly into cold water. Less than 70 F. is
cold.


You may well be correct for many of the victims. The human body's
response to sudden immersion in cold water is (like much else in nature)
a bell curve. ~ 5% will be fine, ~30% will feel the shock but able to
recover, ~30 have a more severe shock, ~30% more severe yet, and ~5% may
simply die almost instantly.

Age and fitness probably matter, but I've personally seen (and helped
rescue) a very fit young man (a college soccer star, in fact) lapse
instantly into unconsciousness & heart failure upon immersion in 40
degree water. He fell off a jet ski near shore, would have been an
embarassing way to die.

There are stories of people surviving almost indefinitely while immersed
in cold water, but I've always assumed that these people just
represented that far tip of the bell curve.

One of the reasons I favor Type 3 PFDs over inflatables is that they
offer some insulation for the chest (plus no worries about inflation or
lack thereof).

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

I finally saw pictures of the boat. It is a travesty that this small
craft was rated for 50 passengers and two crew.

harlan

--
To respond, obviously drop the "nospan"?

Lake George Capsize
 

I finally saw pictures of the boat. It is a travesty that this small
craft was rated for 50 passengers and two crew.

I should know this having been heavily involved with the Coast Guard
and vessel stability issues but it's slipped my mind. Does the USCG
have inspection jurisdiction over vessels on Lake George? I haven't
seen them mentioned in the news accounts.

USCG stability rules are pretty conservative although there are plenty
of vessels that are grandfathered, been modified post stability test,
or otherwise snuck into the system.

--

Roger Long

Lake George Capsize
 

In article ,
DSK wrote:
One of the reasons I favor Type 3 PFDs over inflatables is that they
offer some insulation for the chest (plus no worries about inflation or
lack thereof).

I like them also for the insulation factor... they can be worn
underneath windbreakers and such. However, some people find them too
bulky and uncomfortable, and thus don't wear them.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Lake George Capsize
 

In article ,
"Roger Long" wrote:

I finally saw pictures of the boat. It is a travesty that this small
craft was rated for 50 passengers and two crew.

I should know this having been heavily involved with the Coast Guard
and vessel stability issues but it's slipped my mind. Does the USCG
have inspection jurisdiction over vessels on Lake George? I haven't
seen them mentioned in the news accounts.

USCG stability rules are pretty conservative although there are plenty
of vessels that are grandfathered, been modified post stability test,
or otherwise snuck into the system.

NY Tmes reported that as an older boat, this one was grandfathered in
and did not have to be inspected after changes.

h

--
To respond, obviously drop the "nospan"?

Lake George Capsize
 

Rich Hampel wrote in
:

Lake George is a cold lake.


I swam in Lake George. For it to get to 70F, you'd have to MELT Florida as
we spiral into the sun. Most NY lakes are like that. I was born in the
Finger Lakes. When calling old friend back home, I always ask, "Which day
was Summer this year?"...(c;

--
Larry

Lake George Capsize
 

I saw the out of the water photos in the paper this morning and the
report that a stability test had to be stopped after 10 passengers.
As one who has designed several USCG certificated vessels and
conducted more stability tests than I can remember, all I can say is
"WOW!". No tests or calculations would have been necessary to
conclude that this thing was going to kill people some day with 50
passengers.

I think this accident is going to be one of those that results in a
major overhaul of the regulations. Actually, it probably won't. Post
911 nobody is paying attention to anything except chasing phantoms and
figuring out ways to use terrorism and natural disasters to push
political agendas and award no-bid contracts.

--

Roger Long

Lake George Capsize
 

That boat was made in the 1950's when the average person weighed a
sensible 140 pounds, with its 100 passenger limit the boat was a
perfectly safe vessel to operate. Now with all the fat, today the
average amererican is a fat blubbery disgrace weighing WAAAAAY over 140
poounds. IT is truly no wonder the boat sank. This is simply natures
way of cleaning out the fat. It is nothing to cry about. In fact I find
it somewhat humerous.

Look at your waste band? If your a stasticical average you are obese.
Perhaps you should have been aboard?
bob, freind to capt. neal and like minded fellows of
the sea.

Lake George Capsize
 

Correction: 50 passenger capacity not 100. And to answer a prior post,
the uscg does not have jurisdiction over lake george. it is not a uscg
inspected vessel. ny state does. who is to blame though for this
tragedy? perhaps gluttony.

Lake George Capsize
 

"Meye5" wrote in message
oups.com...
That boat was made in the 1950's when the average person weighed a
sensible 140 pounds, with its 100 passenger limit the boat was a
perfectly safe vessel to operate. Now with all the fat, today the
average amererican is a fat blubbery disgrace weighing WAAAAAY over 140
poounds. IT is truly no wonder the boat sank. This is simply natures
way of cleaning out the fat. It is nothing to cry about. In fact I find
it somewhat humerous.

Look at your waste band? If your a stasticical average you are obese.
Perhaps you should have been aboard?
bob, freind to capt. neal and like minded fellows of
the sea.


Bob:
Judging by the literal content of your note and the way you compose your
words, you must be a child. I can see no other reason for your juvenile
diatribe.

James D. Carter
"The Boat"
Bayfield

Lake George Capsize
 

Having designed a lot of boats and struggled numerous times to meet
the stability requirements, I have a hard time seeing how that boat
would have been safe with a 50 pound passenger assumption. What were
they thinking?

--

Roger Long

Lake George Capsize
 

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Having designed a lot of boats and struggled numerous times to meet
the stability requirements, I have a hard time seeing how that boat
would have been safe with a 50 pound passenger assumption. What were
they thinking?
Roger Long

Hi Roger:

Tour boats should have regular "certified" inspections. This should
eliminate tragedies like what happened on Lake George and also could have
prevented an accident on Georgian Bay, which involved a tour boat..

Here is the accident report for the Canadian tour boat that sank a few
years ago.

As a person involved in Marine design, you may find this interesting
reading.

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/mari...3/m00c0033.asp

James D. Carter
"The Boat"
Bayfield

Lake George Capsize
 

In article .com,
"Meye5" wrote:

Correction: 50 passenger capacity not 100. And to answer a prior post,
the uscg does not have jurisdiction over lake george. it is not a uscg
inspected vessel. ny state does. who is to blame though for this
tragedy? perhaps gluttony.

This is EXACTLY where the problem is. Not the "gluttony" but the State
of New York's inspection policies. If this were a USCG Inspected
Passenger Vessel, things would have been different. Stability, would be
only one of the things required for a USCG COI. Operators would be
required to hold USCG Small Passenger Ship Masters License. Ship would
need to be inspected annually for seaworthness. Radios would be
required, and they would need to be inspected once every 5 years, for a
Title III Part III SOLAS RadioTelephone Permit.
In the past, I have been involved with SOLAS Inspections, on both sides
of the Inspection, as well as USCG Courts of Inquirey, on sinkings of
SOLAS Required Vessels. These aren't very fun for the folks that are
left alive, but they do tend to get to the facts of the issue, and new
regulations, do come from such Findings.


Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

Lake George Capsize
 

Report says all twenty who died drowned and that hypothermia or cardiac
arrest were not factors. Report makes it appear that sudden immersion in
cold water was not a factor.

Well, I wonder. My understanding is that when one is suddenly underwater
in cold water there is a reflexive intake of breath which causes
drowning.

Lake George Capsize
 

Gogarty wrote:
Report says all twenty who died drowned and that hypothermia or cardiac
arrest were not factors. Report makes it appear that sudden immersion in
cold water was not a factor.

Well, I wonder. My understanding is that when one is suddenly underwater
in cold water there is a reflexive intake of breath which causes
drowning.


I wonder too, but in the absence of evidence that the coroner is a
raging incompetent and/or the reporters are blatant liars, what
conclusion can one reach? Classic hypothermia would have taken longer
anyway.

Certainly immersion in cold water didn't improve their health.

Anyway, the lesson here is: when you go on a tour boat (or ferry) take
the safety precautions seriously.

Too many people in this country stumble around like village idiots,
convinced that nothing bad can (or should) ever happen to them no matter
what stupid and/or self-destructive stunt they pull. Do I sound cynical?
This is not to say that tour boat operator... and especially the boat
making the wake... shouldn't be held liable... but those people are
going still be dead no matter what a court decides.

DSK

Lake George Capsize
 

Jim? "literal content of your note " ??
***plunk*** : )

Lake George Capsize
 

There was nothing wrong with the stability of the boat. Why are you
blaming the vessel? It had been in use since the 1950's. The stability
issue has to do with accessive weight of the passengers. In
aviation...... the FAA considered the average human carcass to weight
170 pounds. That was in the 80's. I think it's actually higher now.
In the 1950's it was siginificantly lower. Weight in passeger
calculations weight and balance calculations are far more important in
aviation. You want to "supersize your order sir?" next time a
mcdonalds employee askes you that , think about the statistics before
you say "yes" The blame lies on human obesity. thats it.
bob, freind to capt. neil and like minded
fellows of the sea.

Lake George Capsize
 

It would be more conclusive to have the drawings of this boat and to do a
tank test with a real size or a scaled down model. Correct me if I am wrong
but this boat has been in operation for decades without known incidents.
From looking at it on TV this boat does not project a nautical look The
geometric and gravity centers are hard to imagine. As for the weight
distribution theory it makes sense in a way but may not be solely the cause
of the capsize. The notion of profit and fuel cost may have contributed to
reduction of operating staff and increase passengers load per tour. I am
curious to know what where the requirements to obtain a boat tour permit
and insurance coverage's in this neck of the wood.


"Meye5" wrote in message
ups.com...
There was nothing wrong with the stability of the boat. Why are you
blaming the vessel? It had been in use since the 1950's. The stability
issue has to do with accessive weight of the passengers. In
aviation...... the FAA considered the average human carcass to weight
170 pounds. That was in the 80's. I think it's actually higher now.
In the 1950's it was siginificantly lower. Weight in passeger
calculations weight and balance calculations are far more important in
aviation. You want to "supersize your order sir?" next time a
mcdonalds employee askes you that , think about the statistics before
you say "yes" The blame lies on human obesity. thats it.
bob, freind to capt. neil and like minded
fellows of the sea.

Lake George Capsize
 

i wonder if they recovered all the bodies, i bet the fish were happy, a
little extra food added to the food chain. hahaha.

Lake George Capsize
 

In article .com,
says...


i wonder if they recovered all the bodies, i bet the fish were happy, a
little extra food added to the food chain. hahaha.

Not funny, twerp.