Hi there!

Let start with... Len is completely right. Forget this stuff about
autopilots, windvanes, etc... that`s all icing that can be added later.
The most important thing that you cannot change is your hull, and
second is your layout (changeable, but at considerable expense). Then
there`s your rig.

Big question... where do you want to sail, and why. High latitude and
low latitude boats are completely different animals, and very few
vessels suit both roles. If you want to circumnavigate, based on what
conditions do you chose this? If you want a rapid circumnavigation then
you should be following the Dashew world... very fast boats... but not
my definition of fun. If you want to cruise in comfort and you choose
your weather windows well, staying in lower latitudes, there are a lot
of boats that will give you this. If you want to see higher latitudes
such as Chile, Argentina, northern Canada, etc... fewer boats suit
these needs. In Puerto Williams, Chile and Ushuaia, Argentina, most of
the vessels you see will be metal. But surprisingly, there are two very
well founded ferro-cement vessels that do fine in Ushuaia. You just
have to know what you want, why and how to take care of it. Know your
vessel`s limitations and respect them. That`s the key.

The deck salon/pilothouse world is a controversial one and again, it
depends on what you want. Yes, this vessel will be your home, so you
want to be comfortable in it. But remember, if you want to
circumnavigate, you have some big oceans to cross and once you`re out
there, you`re out there. Too much open space and you`ll be tossed
around like a salad. And it hurts. Furthermore, the larger the vessel,
the bigger the systems, the more maintenance, the more expense, and the
more muscle needed to move it. There are times I envy the guy in the 34
footer.

One very important thing to remember... buy your boat based on her
hull, the material she`s constructed from, the interior layout, and the
material used for the interior. And of course your rig. As I said, the
rest is icing. Hopefully, you`ll install the other bits and pieces
yourself. If not, get good manuals and take the time to following
everything throughout the boat. Things will break. You will fix them.
And you will learn in the process.

Rick, there are a lot of opinions out there. Go sailing.

akcarlos wrote:
my point was that you can have a larger yacht and sail it quite well
short crewed
without having lots of modern toys like roller furling, electric
winches etc .


True enough, but apparently you also forgot that "Spray" was a very old
wooden boat ballasted with loose rocks, and that while Slocum did manage
to sail around the world in her, he was also lost at sea in her.

Modern gear is better. It isn't necessary, of course, but much of it (if
intelligently chosen & properly installed) makes life while
sailing/cruising SAFER as well as more comfortable.

Fresh Breezes- Doug "Throw A Brick At A Luddite Today" King

You know there=B4s all kinds out here and it depends on what YOU want
and WHERE.

I=B4m currently sailing in the Beagle Channel. One couple we sail
alongside has a lovely steel vessel, 38=B4, they built themselves.
Cutter-rig, 18HP diesel. Sounds a little underpowered, but they=B4ve
been out for 18 years. Everything is manual except for the furling
headsails. They get everywhere they need to go and don=B4t spend all of
their time making repairs. We have two ferro-cement sailboats down here
that prove the fact that good construction can do alot. The average
=A8pleasure=A8 vessel (lots of charters down here that don=B4t count) is
probably between 45 and 55 feet. But remember, this is an extreme
environment and high-latitude vessels are a tad different from their
tropical counterparts. Modern equipment is great, but things can freeze
up down here. The lanolin-based greases solidify as our friend aboard
Sula discovered. I think most people down here in the extreme south
like modern, electric when possible, but with a good manual override.
When you want to bring in that sail or reef, you may want to do it
quickly. But if it breaks, you want to be able to handle it easily.

On a transocean passage it=B4s not much different. If you get hit in a
squall, you don`t want to spend your precious energy messing about.
Just get the sails reefed and hunker down.

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 08:05:25 -0400, DSK wrote:


Modern gear is better. It isn't necessary, of course, but much of it (if
intelligently chosen & properly installed) makes life while
sailing/cruising SAFER as well as more comfortable.

Absolutely. Slocum probably didn't have lifelines, but probably *did*
rig preventers, etc.

I have no argument against modern equipment: modern materials
(Spectra, carbon fibre, etc.) are clearly superior in almost all
respects excepting price G. But there are multiple cut-offs, in my
opinion, between modern and useful and modern and (potentially)
dangerous gear and ideas in the bluewater yacht world. One such
break-point, for me, are assistive devices like electric winches or
windlasses: if you are older and/or weaker and/or short-handed, and
the only way you can handle that big beautiful boat is via such
devices, you are pretty well stuck if they break. You want options in
sailing, and not bringing the entire contents of a modern condo with
you on a voyage is easier than having to get a bigger boat with bigger
gear to run it.

I am rather more distressed, if not surprised, at the lack of basic
seamanship in said bigger boats than I am worried at expensive and
possibly superfluous gear that breaks. We hear more and more of
GPS-piloted boats running onto reefs, of crew unable to stop the boat
to do a MOB, with subsequent loss of life, of bozos with zero
knowledge yakking to their fellow bozos on VHF, etc.

Watching the news last night, for instance, I saw several shots of
nice big yachts in (presumably) the Florida Keys, riding out Hurricane
Rita at anchor.

Fair enough. But under what part of basic seamanship do you leave a
foresail on a roller-furler or a mainsail on a boom (in one instance
unlashed and with the sail cover already shredding and straining the
rode)?

This month's Ocean Navigator has a "future of voyaging" section which
is in parts a bit pessimistic in this way: it's not terrorism or high
fuel prices that will cut back on voyaging, it's the unwillingness of
a lot of cruisers to learn the basics of navigation and boat-handling
because they are focused on the gleaming saloon or the wonderful
washer/dryer in the forepeak...G

R.

On 20 Sep 2005 14:04:37 -0700, "ASG" wrote:

You know there´s all kinds out here and it depends on what YOU want
and WHERE.

snip

I think most people down here in the extreme south
like modern, electric when possible, but with a good manual override.
When you want to bring in that sail or reef, you may want to do it
quickly. But if it breaks, you want to be able to handle it easily.

Exactly. Thanks for the "out there" perspective.

R.

Modern gear is better. It isn't necessary, of course, but much of it (if
intelligently chosen & properly installed) makes life while
sailing/cruising SAFER as well as more comfortable.


rhys wrote:
Absolutely. Slocum probably didn't have lifelines, but probably *did*
rig preventers, etc.


The ironic thing about Slocum is that his boat was an old-fashioned
anachronism, backwards to the point of comedy, even at the time he was
sailing it. And he did it that way because he couldn't afford better...
if he hadn't been flat broke, he wouldn't have gone on his solo voyage.


I have no argument against modern equipment: modern materials
(Spectra, carbon fibre, etc.) are clearly superior in almost all
respects excepting price G. But there are multiple cut-offs, in my
opinion, between modern and useful and modern and (potentially)
dangerous gear and ideas in the bluewater yacht world.

Well, don't blur the line between the gear & it's potential, and the
actual use to which many people put it.


... One such
break-point, for me, are assistive devices like electric winches or
windlasses: if you are older and/or weaker and/or short-handed, and
the only way you can handle that big beautiful boat is via such
devices, you are pretty well stuck if they break.

Yep- and unless you have the technical knowledge to maintain them well,
they will break constantly. Another bit of irony, if you *do* have that
knowledge then you can probably fix it yourself as well.

In this hi-tech age, it's still good advice IMHO to not have anything on
your cruising boat that you can't fix yourself. And it's a still a very
achievable goal.




I am rather more distressed, if not surprised, at the lack of basic
seamanship in said bigger boats than I am worried at expensive and
possibly superfluous gear that breaks. We hear more and more of
GPS-piloted boats running onto reefs, of crew unable to stop the boat
to do a MOB, with subsequent loss of life, of bozos with zero
knowledge yakking to their fellow bozos on VHF, etc.

Right, but you seem to want to blame it on the VHF, the GPS, the
autopilot, etc etc. This is like blaming forks & spoons for obesity.

The real problem here is one of cultural relativity... when we go
cruising we want to "get away from it all" but many try to take it all
with them... including their consumer-based cultural values. Those of us
who plan our lives with a bit of common sense don't fare so poorly!



Watching the news last night, for instance, I saw several shots of
nice big yachts in (presumably) the Florida Keys, riding out Hurricane
Rita at anchor.

Fair enough. But under what part of basic seamanship do you leave a
foresail on a roller-furler or a mainsail on a boom (in one instance
unlashed and with the sail cover already shredding and straining the
rode)?


Doesn't bother me a bit, except that they drive up insurance rates for
the rest of us.


This month's Ocean Navigator has a "future of voyaging" section which
is in parts a bit pessimistic in this way: it's not terrorism or high
fuel prices that will cut back on voyaging, it's the unwillingness of
a lot of cruisers to learn the basics of navigation and boat-handling
because they are focused on the gleaming saloon or the wonderful
washer/dryer in the forepeak...G


A regular poster here had an answer for that, can't remember the exact
phrase. Something to the effect of "If you think learning to navigate is
boring, just imagine how exciting it is to hit the rocks!"

Don't worry, a lot of these boats will be for sale cheap. Lack of
interest will bring down marina prices too.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

In article , DSK
wrote:

A technologist would express a 'blue water' boat as designed with all
critical components specified with a safety factor of 4 or more; a
coastal boat @ 3, a 'production' coastal boat @ 2.

What I mean by safety factor is the deduction of stress imparted to a
structure such as having a stainless steel component with 90,000 psi
ultimate properties and designing the *function* at 22,500 psi applied
stress ..... for a safety factor of 4. If you discuss such with the
reknown designers of 'blue water' boats they will relate that they do
design with such a 4X safety factor, more if the boat is going to the
'high latitudes'. They will also give you a lighterweight coastal
design of the exact same size, shape & configuration but at SF of 3, or
you can buy a 'production' boat that sometimes approaches SF of 2.

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:10:41 -0400, rhys wrote:

One such
break-point, for me, are assistive devices like electric winches or
windlasses: if you are older and/or weaker and/or short-handed, and
the only way you can handle that big beautiful boat is via such
devices, you are pretty well stuck if they break.

Unless you have a satisfactory backup plan, like taking longer to do
the job, or taking other steps to make it easier. All of those hauling
jobs can be accomplished slowly with a block and tackle, but it's
hardly an enjoyable way to do it.

I don't have a windlass, electric or otherwise, but there are
certainly days when I wouldn't mind a little help.

Ryk

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 23:42:21 -0400, Ryk
wrote:


Unless you have a satisfactory backup plan, like taking longer to do
the job, or taking other steps to make it easier. All of those hauling
jobs can be accomplished slowly with a block and tackle, but it's
hardly an enjoyable way to do it.

That depends. If you are trying to coastal cruise in a two-week
vacation window, more power...literally...to you. If you are
passage-making, wherein you combine longish trips with longish
anchoring-out, you might want both the security of the manual
"old-school" options, not to mention the needed exercise. It used to
be noted that a lot of cruising couples had massive backs and
shoulders from winch-work, and skinny little legs from little more
strain than bracing themselves in a cockpit. These days, of course,
you just install a marinized folding exercise bike in the saloon as
your automatic bilge pumps whirr...G

I don't have a windlass, electric or otherwise, but there are
certainly days when I wouldn't mind a little help.

And I wouldn't begrudge it to you. But I would suggest a manual
windlass, or even a come-along/handy-billy, just for the exercise in a
Great Lakes type of situation.

It's not the electric gear I find problematic in a blue-water (as per
the original poster) situation; it's the exclusive reliance on
electric gear. For the record, I like stuff like spring-wound starter
motors and windvanes, as well...but I'm no Luddite, just prudent, I
hope.

R.

Rhys makes an important point here... It=B4s fine to have the toys to
make things a little easier, but without the routine exercise to keep
the muscles working, (not to mention the mind), you won=B4t have it when
you really need it.