What is a Blue Water boat?
 

Just what is a blue water boat- size- sail plan- tankage- hull material- and
so on?
My wife and I want to retire and do a circumnavigation just the 2 of us.
What should I look for in a boat?
Rick in St Louis

RB wrote:
Just what is a blue water boat- size- sail plan- tankage- hull material- and
so on?
My wife and I want to retire and do a circumnavigation just the 2 of us.
What should I look for in a boat?
Rick in St Louis

Autopilot if there is only the two of you

As with *everything* in sailing, you'll get as many answers as there
are sailors, but this is a pretty good definition:

http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/5471/bwboat.htm

MW

"akcarlos" wrote:


RB wrote:
Just what is a blue water boat- size- sail plan- tankage- hull material- and
so on?
My wife and I want to retire and do a circumnavigation just the 2 of us.
What should I look for in a boat?
Rick in St Louis

If you don't know what you need to look for, you shouldn't be going.

Autopilot if there is only the two of you

Autopilots can be installed or replaced. Wind vane steering would be
better as there's less to go wrong with it.

grandma Rosalie

RB wrote:

Just what is a blue water boat- size- sail plan- tankage- hull material- and
so on?
My wife and I want to retire and do a circumnavigation just the 2 of us.
What should I look for in a boat?
Rick in St Louis

Check this site:
http://www.sailready.com/

Happy sailing!

Marc Onrust
www.MarineYacht.com

You need to decide what you need to fit your level of comfort. A Cal-25
did a circumnavigation. I sailed 5 years on a Cal 3-30. Back then I
felt like I was a great boat but now I want something much bigger
because I need more comfort.

I suggest that you crew for someone that is going to go cruising. Take
a week or more at a time and crew on a boat doing something like the
Baja Haha or heading down island from Miami. See what is on their boat
and how it holds together. There is no teacher like experience and my
experience is based on my needs, not yours.

Certainly, some boats are not fit for cruising. Hunter, Catalina and
other boats like that are billed as the perfect boats by only their own
advertising. Real life situations kill those types of boats but there
are other factors you will learn to look for. Some people like slow
boats that are 10 feet thick. I like a medium weight boat that sails
fast so I can get up wind or out of the way whey I need to. Each boat
has a set of pros and cons. If you have more space, you have less
performance and vise versa. Sailing on other people's boats will be
about the only way you will really find what you are looking for.
Consider it like a mail order bride. You could do it but you're a lot
better off dating your boat first.

On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 12:57:40 GMT, Rosalie B.
wrote:

"akcarlos" wrote:


RB wrote:
Just what is a blue water boat- size- sail plan- tankage- hull material- and
so on?
My wife and I want to retire and do a circumnavigation just the 2 of us.
What should I look for in a boat?
Rick in St Louis

If you don't know what you need to look for, you shouldn't be going.

Autopilot if there is only the two of you

Autopilots can be installed or replaced. Wind vane steering would be
better as there's less to go wrong with it.


Two autopilots, plus one windvane with a few critical spares.
Hand-steering is great in thin water and entering/leaving harbours,
but neither necessary nor the best use of a crew's energy or attention
when passagemaking.

R.

.. . . and they don't suck precious battery juice.


"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
"akcarlos" wrote:


RB wrote:
Just what is a blue water boat- size- sail plan- tankage- hull material-
and
so on?
My wife and I want to retire and do a circumnavigation just the 2 of us.
What should I look for in a boat?
Rick in St Louis

If you don't know what you need to look for, you shouldn't be going.

Autopilot if there is only the two of you

Autopilots can be installed or replaced. Wind vane steering would be
better as there's less to go wrong with it.

grandma Rosalie

Try Tristan Jones, "One Hand for Yourself, One for the Ship". He's very
conservative, but has been around (and around, and around) for a while. You
don't need to believe all he says (a yawl isn't necessarily the best
globe-trotter), but he has so much advice that much of it is worth being
aware of.



"RB" wrote in message
...
Just what is a blue water boat- size- sail plan- tankage- hull material-
and so on?
My wife and I want to retire and do a circumnavigation just the 2 of us.
What should I look for in a boat?
Rick in St Louis

I just knew someone would say that "I shouldn't be going" blah blah blah. I
know how to sail. I currently do not have a boat, but was hoping I would
get some answers so I would be able to start thinking about what boat would
do me the best (without making a mistake the first time) since I have been
on land raising my family for a couple of decades...
For the other folks that answered me- give me some time to read through the
sites you sent me- if you can spare the time- please email me and maybe I
can ask you some questions directly:

Thanks,
RB

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
"akcarlos" wrote:


RB wrote:
Just what is a blue water boat- size- sail plan- tankage- hull material-
and
so on?
My wife and I want to retire and do a circumnavigation just the 2 of us.
What should I look for in a boat?
Rick in St Louis

If you don't know what you need to look for, you shouldn't be going.

Autopilot if there is only the two of you

Autopilots can be installed or replaced. Wind vane steering would be
better as there's less to go wrong with it.

grandma Rosalie

RB

Not for nothing, but you could have headed-off the "you shouldn't be going"
response(s) by originally mentioning that you know the difference between
the pointy end and the other one. ;-)

Karin Conover-Lewis
s/v "Escapade"
1963 Rawson 30 Ketch

"RB" wrote in message
...
I just knew someone would say that "I shouldn't be going" blah blah blah. I
know how to sail. I currently do not have a boat, but was hoping I would
get some answers so I would be able to start thinking about what boat would
do me the best (without making a mistake the first time) since I have been
on land raising my family for a couple of decades...
For the other folks that answered me- give me some time to read through
the sites you sent me- if you can spare the time- please email me and
maybe I can ask you some questions directly:

Thanks,
RB

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
"akcarlos" wrote:


RB wrote:
Just what is a blue water boat- size- sail plan- tankage- hull
material- and
so on?
My wife and I want to retire and do a circumnavigation just the 2 of
us.
What should I look for in a boat?
Rick in St Louis

If you don't know what you need to look for, you shouldn't be going.

Autopilot if there is only the two of you

Autopilots can be installed or replaced. Wind vane steering would be
better as there's less to go wrong with it.

grandma Rosalie

I would suggest that before you circumnavigate the world that you pick
something smaller to circumnavigate...like the Caribbean. You'll gain a
lot of insight into what works for you and whether or not you really
want to go around the world. You can find plenty of blue water boats in
Australia/NZ from people who thought that they wanted to circumnavigate
the world but got that far and decided that it wasn't for them.

There are lots of plus sides to doing this as. For example, you're not
that far away from the US when you decide that you need to come back to
the States and retrofit your boat...again...

-- Geoff


"RB" wrote in :

I just knew someone would say that "I shouldn't be going" blah blah
blah. I know how to sail. I currently do not have a boat, but was
hoping I would get some answers so I would be able to start thinking
about what boat would do me the best (without making a mistake the
first time) since I have been on land raising my family for a couple
of decades... For the other folks that answered me- give me some time
to read through the sites you sent me- if you can spare the time-
please email me and maybe I can ask you some questions directly:


Thanks,
RB

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
"akcarlos" wrote:


RB wrote:
Just what is a blue water boat- size- sail plan- tankage- hull
material- and
so on?
My wife and I want to retire and do a circumnavigation just the 2
of us. What should I look for in a boat?
Rick in St Louis

If you don't know what you need to look for, you shouldn't be going.

Autopilot if there is only the two of you

Autopilots can be installed or replaced. Wind vane steering would be
better as there's less to go wrong with it.

grandma Rosalie

Red Cloud® wrote:

On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 12:53:58 -0500, "RB" wrote:

I just knew someone would say that "I shouldn't be going" blah blah blah. I
know how to sail. I currently do not have a boat, but was hoping I would
get some answers so I would be able to start thinking about what boat would
do me the best (without making a mistake the first time) since I have been
on land raising my family for a couple of decades...
For the other folks that answered me- give me some time to read through the
sites you sent me- if you can spare the time- please email me and maybe I
can ask you some questions directly:

Thanks,
RB

Well I stand by my first answer. There's a big difference from doing
day sailing and/or racing and doing a circumnavigation. It's almost
not the same activity. Knowing how to sail is a MINOR part of what
you need to know.

I got the impression that you were asking for parameters that the boat
should meet. And equipment is a secondary part of this IMHO. I
thought that you wanted to know something about how to assess boats
that you might be looking at for soundness for your purpose. (see
below) You can always buy equipment and stick it on the boat. If
someone hadn't suggested an autopilot I would not have answered at
all.

But in this second addendum it sounds like you want recommendations
for specific boats to look at. Again IMHO that is going at it
backwards. But if you really want specific recommendations, go to the
SSCA (you might join if you can get someone to recommend you), and
look at the kinds of boats that people that are out there doing it are
sailing in and then look at those kinds of boats to see what they are
like.

I think it is going to be hard to find a boat in St. Louis. Most
bluewater boats are going to be in Southern California or on the
southern East Coast.


Based on the way you worded the question, and all the possible details you
didn't mention, I could have predicted it as well. Grandma Rosalie's answer to
the question "as asked" was entirely appropriate, and spot on.

The fact that you asked your question in such an unthinking manner would also
suggest that you may not have anywhere near what it takes to be a global
cruiser.

Get your act together and try again.

rusty redcloud

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
. ..
"akcarlos" wrote:


RB wrote:
Just what is a blue water boat- size- sail plan- tankage- hull material-
and
so on?

You can do bluewater sailing in almost any kind of boat. People do it
in wooden boats (the Pardeys for instance), in fiberglass boats and in
steel boats. People do it in monohulls and catamarans. They do it in
junk rigs, ketches, and sloops. Some of them don't even have engines.

Tankage depends on a bunch of things - do you have a water maker? Do
you have an engine?

My wife and I want to retire and do a circumnavigation just the 2 of us.
What should I look for in a boat?
Rick in St Louis

If you don't know what you need to look for, you shouldn't be going.

Autopilot if there is only the two of you

Autopilots can be installed or replaced. Wind vane steering would be
better as there's less to go wrong with it.

grandma Rosalie

Anyone can join the SSCA. You can only be a commodore if you live full
time aboard your boat and get recommended by another member. Personally
it's a membership that I don't wish to have as I like having a home for
hurricane season.

-- Geoff

Rosalie B. wrote in
:

[big clips]

But if you really want specific recommendations, go to the
SSCA (you might join if you can get someone to recommend you), and
look at the kinds of boats that people that are out there doing it are
sailing in and then look at those kinds of boats to see what they are
like.

Geoff Schultz wrote:


Anyone can join the SSCA. You can only be a commodore if you live full
time aboard your boat and get recommended by another member. Personally
it's a membership that I don't wish to have as I like having a home for
hurricane season.

-- Geoff

We've been associate members for years. We still have a home for the
hurricane season.

One of the things they do is assess equipment periodically.

You also might join one of the email groups such as the live-aboard
list, the world_cruising list (which is a yahoo group) or the Yacht-L
list.

Rosalie B. wrote in
:

[big clips]

But if you really want specific recommendations, go to the
SSCA (you might join if you can get someone to recommend you), and
look at the kinds of boats that people that are out there doing it are
sailing in and then look at those kinds of boats to see what they are
like.

grandma Rosalie

Rosalie B. wrote in
:

Geoff Schultz wrote:


Anyone can join the SSCA. You can only be a commodore if you live full
time aboard your boat and get recommended by another member. Personally
it's a membership that I don't wish to have as I like having a home for
hurricane season.

-- Geoff

We've been associate members for years. We still have a home for the
hurricane season.

One of the things they do is assess equipment periodically.

You also might join one of the email groups such as the live-aboard
list, the world_cruising list (which is a yahoo group) or the Yacht-L
list.

I should correct my statement. I am a SSCA member, but I'm not a commodore
and have no desire to be one...Definately one of those Rodney Dangerfield
groups in my book! :-)

-- Geoff

Geoff Schultz wrote:

Rosalie B. wrote in
:

Geoff Schultz wrote:


Anyone can join the SSCA. You can only be a commodore if you live full
time aboard your boat and get recommended by another member. Personally
it's a membership that I don't wish to have as I like having a home for
hurricane season.

We've been associate members for years. We still have a home for the
hurricane season.

One of the things they do is assess equipment periodically.

You also might join one of the email groups such as the live-aboard
list, the world_cruising list (which is a yahoo group) or the Yacht-L
list.

I should correct my statement. I am a SSCA member, but I'm not a commodore
and have no desire to be one...Definately one of those Rodney Dangerfield
groups in my book! :-)

Rodney Dangerfield got no respect. Are you saying that SSCA gets no
respect? That wouldn't have been my take on the situation at all.

The OP does want to go offshore and could probably qualify eventually,
and in the meantime he can read in the Bulletin about people out there
doing it and see what kinds of boats they are using.

..
grandma Rosalie

Rosalie B. wrote in
:

Geoff Schultz wrote:

Rosalie B. wrote in
m:

Geoff Schultz wrote:


Anyone can join the SSCA. You can only be a commodore if you live
full time aboard your boat and get recommended by another member.
Personally it's a membership that I don't wish to have as I like
having a home for hurricane season.

We've been associate members for years. We still have a home for
the hurricane season.

One of the things they do is assess equipment periodically.

You also might join one of the email groups such as the live-aboard
list, the world_cruising list (which is a yahoo group) or the
Yacht-L list.

I should correct my statement. I am a SSCA member, but I'm not a
commodore and have no desire to be one...Definately one of those
Rodney Dangerfield groups in my book! :-)

Rodney Dangerfield got no respect. Are you saying that SSCA gets no
respect? That wouldn't have been my take on the situation at all.

grandma Rosalie

He also said that he would never be a member of any organization who
would have him as a member...

-- Geoff

Red Cloud© wrote:

On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 22:30:12 GMT, Rosalie B.
wrote:

I think it is going to be hard to find a boat in St. Louis. Most
bluewater boats are going to be in Southern California or on the
southern East Coast.


BTW, Grandma Rosalie, I know you keep track of CSY's for sale. Here's
one: http://www.csyforsale.com

rusty redcloud

Thanks - I know of the boat but I didn't know she was FS. Kind of a
steep price IMHO although she looks beautiful. .

grandma Rosalie

He also said that he would never be a member of any organization who
would have him as a member...

-- Geoff

I sent the club a wire stating, Please accept my resignation. I don't
want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member.

Groucho Marx.

http://www.groucho-marx.com/

Red Cloud® wrote:

On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 17:06:31 GMT, Rosalie B. wrote:

Red Cloud© wrote:

On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 22:30:12 GMT, Rosalie B.
wrote:

I think it is going to be hard to find a boat in St. Louis. Most
bluewater boats are going to be in Southern California or on the
southern East Coast.


BTW, Grandma Rosalie, I know you keep track of CSY's for sale. Here's
one: http://www.csyforsale.com

Thanks - I know of the boat but I didn't know she was FS. Kind of a
steep price IMHO although she looks beautiful. .

I was pretty shocked by what they are asking. I realize from looking at the
website that they have done a lot of recent work, but I doubt they can honestly
expect to recoup all that they invested. These boats are usually offered needing
about 20-40k of refitting for about 75 - 85K. To me, someone should be able to
buy one of these and have it pretty darned fresh for 100 - 110k. I wouldn't mind
owning one, and when we get to the point in a few years when we need a
comfortable liveaboard for 4-6 months at a time, a CSY will be high on the list
of candidates.

It isn't completely out of the ballpark. I have seen ones sell for
more than that. One of them started out at $300K and eventually sold
for about $195K.

At the moment the following walkovers are for sale:

-MABEL REID in the Netherlands is about $170K
-MARIAH in the USVI for $165K
-ZIA in Palmetto FL for $139K
-ROB ROY in Ontario listed for $139K
- DOU DOU $139K in St. Maartin - doghouse over cockpit
- MARIJKE IV in Punta Gorda for $133.5K
- ANGELIQUE for $125K down from $136K in Panama City
- LEAP OF FAITH in Titusville FL for $125
- SURPRISE for $124.9 K (owned by list member Larry Rotta)
- BASILISK in Tortola for $120K
- unknown boat in Channel Islands CA for $117.6K
- unknown boat in Guatemala for $115K
- EVERMORE in Georgia for $109K
- AUDRA $109K in Ft. Lauderdale FL (shoal draft tall rig)
- GHOST in Massachusetts down to $89.9 from $105K
-MARY MAR for $84.9 down from $94.5 in Clear Lake TX
-JOYA GRANDE in Ft. Lauderdale for $83K
- NASHIRA in California down from $80K to $79K
- SIRENA DEL MAR in Marathon for $69.5K


grandma Rosalie

S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD
CSY 44 WO #156
http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id1.html

When are you guys planning to retire?
My wife and I did a year ago and we're living aboard our yacht for 2,5
years now. In this time we get used to life aboard, refit/prep the
ship, and so on. We're planning on leaving in 2007.

Our advice would be: buy the largest hullspace you can afford
(purchase as well as maintenance), and buy a decksaloon.
Everything about a ship can be altered afterwards except the hull. For
a healthy, longlasting life aboard space is very important. We even
rented a small trailer for 6 months (in winter) to get to know how a
switch from a fairly large home to a space of 50 x 15 feet influenced
us: we love it (and this is one of the instances where your general
attitude regarding life and posessing matter kicks in) ...

Next to that a decksaloon let's you live with normal eye-contact with
the outside world while sitting down. My bet is you would get fed up
with living on a conventional yacht, no matter the size. It's like
living in a cellar with small windows over your head.

For some other subjects to think of before you buy:
Peter Forthmann owns a german factory that manufactures windvanes.
He's an experienced sailor. One subject he elaborates on is "the
perfect yacht".
http://www.windpilot.com/en/Ra/rayacen.html
Imo a sensible piece of information.

Hope to hear again from you.

Len,
S/v Present


On Mon, 5 Sep 2005 20:38:43 -0500, "RB" wrote:

Just what is a blue water boat- size- sail plan- tankage- hull material- and
so on?
My wife and I want to retire and do a circumnavigation just the 2 of us.
What should I look for in a boat?
Rick in St Louis

HI again folks, Thanks for the replies! I want plenty of opinions since this
is a broad topic!

So here goes, what SIZE of boat would be a maximum for 2 (healthy and late
50's) people underway. I am thinking in the 45 to 65 foot range with modern
roller furling and etc.
I have been partial to ketch sail configurations. I need good room for
visitors/family if they where to fly over and spend some time in port with
us as we go along. I may never get out of the Caribbean- but want a boat
that can make it if we want to do some extended cruising.

Thanks,
RB


"RB" wrote in message
...
Just what is a blue water boat- size- sail plan- tankage- hull material-
and so on?
My wife and I want to retire and do a circumnavigation just the 2 of us.
What should I look for in a boat?
Rick in St Louis

On Fri, 9 Sep 2005 15:16:10 -0500, "RB" wrote:

HI again folks, Thanks for the replies! I want plenty of opinions since this
is a broad topic!

So here goes, what SIZE of boat would be a maximum for 2 (healthy and late
50's) people underway. I am thinking in the 45 to 65 foot range with modern
roller furling and etc.

Electric winches go from "luxury" to "necessity" in my view at about
the 45 foot mark for two people, unless you are both 5' 10" and
unusually strong. Getting the mainsail up and down is usually the
issue, as the the height of the boom on bigger boats. More electrics,
furling, etc. equals more stuff to break...hiring crew is probably
cheaper in the long run. That being said, the maximum is what your
wallet can handle when half your assistive devices go on the fritz.
Most couples I know of stay in the 39-45 foot band, as the price of
maintenance (not to mention the price of docking, canals, etc.) is
higher with longer boats.

I have been partial to ketch sail configurations. I need good room for
visitors/family if they where to fly over and spend some time in port with
us as we go along. I may never get out of the Caribbean- but want a boat
that can make it if we want to do some extended cruising.

You have several possibly contradictory requirements. You have to
figure that YOU and your wife are the actual liveaboards: size the
boat for your capacities to sail it and your comfort in living in it,
not for its suitability as a floating hotel for visitors who may or
may not show or help in running the boat.

As for the ketch rig, while I personally like it, it is both more
tunable and more complex than a sloop rig, and they point less high on
average and are frequently found 20% too short on boats 40% too heavy.
It's a trade wind/downwind rig, really, and is good if you've got time
or find the more but smaller sails aspect attractive. I do (I like the
center cockpit options frequently found on ketches as well), but I
have no illusions that it takes more wind to get them moving and they
are a rig for comfort, not speed. If J-Boats made a ketch, then
maybe...!

Also, in the Caribbean, there's a lot of thin water. You may find a
swing keel/centerboard makes more sense, as the bigger the boat, the
deeper the keel as a rule. A Whitby 42 is a good example of a tested
Caribbean cruiser.

R.

"RB" wrote:

HI again folks, Thanks for the replies! I want plenty of opinions since this
is a broad topic!

So here goes, what SIZE of boat would be a maximum for 2 (healthy and late
50's) people underway. I am thinking in the 45 to 65 foot range with modern
roller furling and etc.

Our boat is called a CSY 44 and is really closer to 50 if you count
the bow pulpit with the anchor and the dinghy davits and solar panels
on the stern.. That's plenty big enough IMHO for two people to sail.
She can be single handed, but not easily.

We have a cutter and all three sails are roller furled and can be run
from the cockpit. The cutter is nicer than a sloop IMHO.

We don't have either electric winches or an electric windlass. I can
only furl the staysail all by myself because the other sails are too
big for me to handle, but I'm older than you and not as strong. Bob
managed to unfurl and furl the sails himself even though he was in the
process of having a heart attack, so I'm sure a healthy and more fit
person could manage.

I have been partial to ketch sail configurations. I need good room for
visitors/family if they where to fly over and spend some time in port with
us as we go along. I may never get out of the Caribbean- but want a boat
that can make it if we want to do some extended cruising.

There are (since we've modified her a bit), berths for 6.5 (one
smaller person). Enough that children and/or grandchildren could come
and visit. We took out one double and made a single out of it.

We have two heads and a separate shower. This is important.

It is a center cockpit boat which I prefer, although our boat isn't a
walk-through which my husband would prefer.

The boat was built for the Caribbean bareboat trade, and does very
well there as it has lots of ventilation (which I think more modern
boats are lacking) and lots of storage. Ventilation, storage and lots
of handholds are very important IMHO. Don't pay too much attention to
'light and airy saloons' if there's nowhere to hold on in a seaway.

It is a very heavy boat which makes her a bit harder to handle in
strong wind and current, and also somewhat (IMO) underpowered.

HTH


"RB" wrote in message
...
Just what is a blue water boat- size- sail plan- tankage- hull material-
and so on?
My wife and I want to retire and do a circumnavigation just the 2 of us.
What should I look for in a boat?
Rick in St Louis





grandma Rosalie

S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD
CSY 44 WO #156
http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id1.html

I'd go cutter just because it's easier to handle 2 smaller headsails
rather than one monster. G

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
"RB" wrote:

HI again folks, Thanks for the replies! I want plenty of opinions since
this
is a broad topic!

So here goes, what SIZE of boat would be a maximum for 2 (healthy and
late
50's) people underway. I am thinking in the 45 to 65 foot range with
modern
roller furling and etc.

Our boat is called a CSY 44 and is really closer to 50 if you count
the bow pulpit with the anchor and the dinghy davits and solar panels
on the stern.. That's plenty big enough IMHO for two people to sail.
She can be single handed, but not easily.

We have a cutter and all three sails are roller furled and can be run
from the cockpit. The cutter is nicer than a sloop IMHO.

We don't have either electric winches or an electric windlass. I can
only furl the staysail all by myself because the other sails are too
big for me to handle, but I'm older than you and not as strong. Bob
managed to unfurl and furl the sails himself even though he was in the
process of having a heart attack, so I'm sure a healthy and more fit
person could manage.

I have been partial to ketch sail configurations. I need good room for
visitors/family if they where to fly over and spend some time in port
with
us as we go along. I may never get out of the Caribbean- but want a boat
that can make it if we want to do some extended cruising.

There are (since we've modified her a bit), berths for 6.5 (one
smaller person). Enough that children and/or grandchildren could come
and visit. We took out one double and made a single out of it.

We have two heads and a separate shower. This is important.

It is a center cockpit boat which I prefer, although our boat isn't a
walk-through which my husband would prefer.

The boat was built for the Caribbean bareboat trade, and does very
well there as it has lots of ventilation (which I think more modern
boats are lacking) and lots of storage. Ventilation, storage and lots
of handholds are very important IMHO. Don't pay too much attention to
'light and airy saloons' if there's nowhere to hold on in a seaway.

It is a very heavy boat which makes her a bit harder to handle in
strong wind and current, and also somewhat (IMO) underpowered.

HTH


"RB" wrote in message
...
Just what is a blue water boat- size- sail plan- tankage- hull
material-
and so on?
My wife and I want to retire and do a circumnavigation just the 2 of
us.
What should I look for in a boat?
Rick in St Louis





grandma Rosalie

S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD
CSY 44 WO #156
http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id1.html

rhys wrote:
On Fri, 9 Sep 2005 15:16:10 -0500, "RB" wrote:

HI again folks, Thanks for the replies! I want plenty of opinions since this
is a broad topic!

So here goes, what SIZE of boat would be a maximum for 2 (healthy and late
50's) people underway. I am thinking in the 45 to 65 foot range with modern
roller furling and etc.

Electric winches go from "luxury" to "necessity" in my view at about
the 45 foot mark for two people, unless you are both 5' 10" and
unusually strong. Getting the mainsail up and down is usually the
issue, as the the height of the boom on bigger boats. More electrics,
furling, etc. equals more stuff to break...hiring crew is probably
cheaper in the long run. That being said, the maximum is what your
wallet can handle when half your assistive devices go on the fritz.
Most couples I know of stay in the 39-45 foot band, as the price of
maintenance (not to mention the price of docking, canals, etc.) is
higher with longer boats.

I have been partial to ketch sail configurations. I need good room for
visitors/family if they where to fly over and spend some time in port with
us as we go along. I may never get out of the Caribbean- but want a boat
that can make it if we want to do some extended cruising.

You have several possibly contradictory requirements. You have to
figure that YOU and your wife are the actual liveaboards: size the
boat for your capacities to sail it and your comfort in living in it,
not for its suitability as a floating hotel for visitors who may or
may not show or help in running the boat.

As for the ketch rig, while I personally like it, it is both more
tunable and more complex than a sloop rig, and they point less high on
average and are frequently found 20% too short on boats 40% too heavy.
It's a trade wind/downwind rig, really, and is good if you've got time
or find the more but smaller sails aspect attractive. I do (I like the
center cockpit options frequently found on ketches as well), but I
have no illusions that it takes more wind to get them moving and they
are a rig for comfort, not speed. If J-Boats made a ketch, then
maybe...!

Also, in the Caribbean, there's a lot of thin water. You may find a
swing keel/centerboard makes more sense, as the bigger the boat, the
deeper the keel as a rule. A Whitby 42 is a good example of a tested
Caribbean cruiser.

R.

um do you remember any particulars on boat Joshua Slocum sailed around
the world in , I dont recall him looking like a body builder.

On 12 Sep 2005 14:59:39 -0700, "akcarlos" wrote:


um do you remember any particulars on boat Joshua Slocum sailed around
the world in , I dont recall him looking like a body builder.

"Spray" was 36 feet long and easily handled by a man who not only
rebuilt her from frames to be easily handled, but by a man who had
spent his entire career on muscle-powered sailing vessels.

Today's boats are very different, and today's people, as well.

R.

rhys wrote:
On 12 Sep 2005 14:59:39 -0700, "akcarlos" wrote:


um do you remember any particulars on boat Joshua Slocum sailed around
the world in , I dont recall him looking like a body builder.

"Spray" was 36 feet long and easily handled by a man who not only
rebuilt her from frames to be easily handled, but by a man who had
spent his entire career on muscle-powered sailing vessels.

Today's boats are very different, and today's people, as well.

R.

my point was that you can have a larger yacht and sail it quite well
short crewed
without having lots of modern toys like roller furling, electric
winches etc .

On 13 Sep 2005 17:33:17 -0700, "akcarlos" wrote:


rhys wrote:
On 12 Sep 2005 14:59:39 -0700, "akcarlos" wrote:


um do you remember any particulars on boat Joshua Slocum sailed around
the world in , I dont recall him looking like a body builder.

"Spray" was 36 feet long and easily handled by a man who not only
rebuilt her from frames to be easily handled, but by a man who had
spent his entire career on muscle-powered sailing vessels.

Today's boats are very different, and today's people, as well.

R.

my point was that you can have a larger yacht and sail it quite well
short crewed
without having lots of modern toys like roller furling, electric
winches etc .

I think you mistook my meaning: I don't actually approve of a lot of
"modern toys", or perhaps I should say I approve of them selectively.
For instance, I have hank-on sails. In fact, I convert tape luff
composite sails abandoned by racers because a bird shat on them or
something *back into* hank-ons...which is seen as retrograde around my
club. I also just bought a sextant, just rebuilt an Atomic 4, and just
spent a few hundred bucks on making up preventers for my boom, because
with a new spinnaker I'm doing a lot more downwind work.

So I am old-fashioned, I suppose. Or conservative. Or prudent. Or
cheap.

However, I do maintain that if your goal is more cruising and less
repair, the most sensible thing a cruising couple can do is to get as
nearly bulletproof a boat as possible, meaning one sized to their
capabilities, and to make themselves fit as possible so that they can
run it efficiently. In some cases, this means a slightly smaller boat
than they can afford (say, 40 feet), with less crap...sorry, treasured
possessions aboard, and more money invested in better gear.

For a two-person crew, roller furling is a must at 40 feet, unless the
couple in question are Olympian in size and strength. But I would
still want the ability to have a hank-on staysail for emergencies, and
the sort of roller furling where the genoa is easily stripped. By the
same logic, I don't like in mast furling.

R.

Hi there!

Let start with... Len is completely right. Forget this stuff about
autopilots, windvanes, etc... that`s all icing that can be added later.
The most important thing that you cannot change is your hull, and
second is your layout (changeable, but at considerable expense). Then
there`s your rig.

Big question... where do you want to sail, and why. High latitude and
low latitude boats are completely different animals, and very few
vessels suit both roles. If you want to circumnavigate, based on what
conditions do you chose this? If you want a rapid circumnavigation then
you should be following the Dashew world... very fast boats... but not
my definition of fun. If you want to cruise in comfort and you choose
your weather windows well, staying in lower latitudes, there are a lot
of boats that will give you this. If you want to see higher latitudes
such as Chile, Argentina, northern Canada, etc... fewer boats suit
these needs. In Puerto Williams, Chile and Ushuaia, Argentina, most of
the vessels you see will be metal. But surprisingly, there are two very
well founded ferro-cement vessels that do fine in Ushuaia. You just
have to know what you want, why and how to take care of it. Know your
vessel`s limitations and respect them. That`s the key.

The deck salon/pilothouse world is a controversial one and again, it
depends on what you want. Yes, this vessel will be your home, so you
want to be comfortable in it. But remember, if you want to
circumnavigate, you have some big oceans to cross and once you`re out
there, you`re out there. Too much open space and you`ll be tossed
around like a salad. And it hurts. Furthermore, the larger the vessel,
the bigger the systems, the more maintenance, the more expense, and the
more muscle needed to move it. There are times I envy the guy in the 34
footer.

One very important thing to remember... buy your boat based on her
hull, the material she`s constructed from, the interior layout, and the
material used for the interior. And of course your rig. As I said, the
rest is icing. Hopefully, you`ll install the other bits and pieces
yourself. If not, get good manuals and take the time to following
everything throughout the boat. Things will break. You will fix them.
And you will learn in the process.

Rick, there are a lot of opinions out there. Go sailing.

akcarlos wrote:
my point was that you can have a larger yacht and sail it quite well
short crewed
without having lots of modern toys like roller furling, electric
winches etc .


True enough, but apparently you also forgot that "Spray" was a very old
wooden boat ballasted with loose rocks, and that while Slocum did manage
to sail around the world in her, he was also lost at sea in her.

Modern gear is better. It isn't necessary, of course, but much of it (if
intelligently chosen & properly installed) makes life while
sailing/cruising SAFER as well as more comfortable.

Fresh Breezes- Doug "Throw A Brick At A Luddite Today" King

You know there=B4s all kinds out here and it depends on what YOU want
and WHERE.

I=B4m currently sailing in the Beagle Channel. One couple we sail
alongside has a lovely steel vessel, 38=B4, they built themselves.
Cutter-rig, 18HP diesel. Sounds a little underpowered, but they=B4ve
been out for 18 years. Everything is manual except for the furling
headsails. They get everywhere they need to go and don=B4t spend all of
their time making repairs. We have two ferro-cement sailboats down here
that prove the fact that good construction can do alot. The average
=A8pleasure=A8 vessel (lots of charters down here that don=B4t count) is
probably between 45 and 55 feet. But remember, this is an extreme
environment and high-latitude vessels are a tad different from their
tropical counterparts. Modern equipment is great, but things can freeze
up down here. The lanolin-based greases solidify as our friend aboard
Sula discovered. I think most people down here in the extreme south
like modern, electric when possible, but with a good manual override.
When you want to bring in that sail or reef, you may want to do it
quickly. But if it breaks, you want to be able to handle it easily.

On a transocean passage it=B4s not much different. If you get hit in a
squall, you don`t want to spend your precious energy messing about.
Just get the sails reefed and hunker down.

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 08:05:25 -0400, DSK wrote:


Modern gear is better. It isn't necessary, of course, but much of it (if
intelligently chosen & properly installed) makes life while
sailing/cruising SAFER as well as more comfortable.

Absolutely. Slocum probably didn't have lifelines, but probably *did*
rig preventers, etc.

I have no argument against modern equipment: modern materials
(Spectra, carbon fibre, etc.) are clearly superior in almost all
respects excepting price G. But there are multiple cut-offs, in my
opinion, between modern and useful and modern and (potentially)
dangerous gear and ideas in the bluewater yacht world. One such
break-point, for me, are assistive devices like electric winches or
windlasses: if you are older and/or weaker and/or short-handed, and
the only way you can handle that big beautiful boat is via such
devices, you are pretty well stuck if they break. You want options in
sailing, and not bringing the entire contents of a modern condo with
you on a voyage is easier than having to get a bigger boat with bigger
gear to run it.

I am rather more distressed, if not surprised, at the lack of basic
seamanship in said bigger boats than I am worried at expensive and
possibly superfluous gear that breaks. We hear more and more of
GPS-piloted boats running onto reefs, of crew unable to stop the boat
to do a MOB, with subsequent loss of life, of bozos with zero
knowledge yakking to their fellow bozos on VHF, etc.

Watching the news last night, for instance, I saw several shots of
nice big yachts in (presumably) the Florida Keys, riding out Hurricane
Rita at anchor.

Fair enough. But under what part of basic seamanship do you leave a
foresail on a roller-furler or a mainsail on a boom (in one instance
unlashed and with the sail cover already shredding and straining the
rode)?

This month's Ocean Navigator has a "future of voyaging" section which
is in parts a bit pessimistic in this way: it's not terrorism or high
fuel prices that will cut back on voyaging, it's the unwillingness of
a lot of cruisers to learn the basics of navigation and boat-handling
because they are focused on the gleaming saloon or the wonderful
washer/dryer in the forepeak...G

R.

On 20 Sep 2005 14:04:37 -0700, "ASG" wrote:

You know there´s all kinds out here and it depends on what YOU want
and WHERE.

snip

I think most people down here in the extreme south
like modern, electric when possible, but with a good manual override.
When you want to bring in that sail or reef, you may want to do it
quickly. But if it breaks, you want to be able to handle it easily.

Exactly. Thanks for the "out there" perspective.

R.

Modern gear is better. It isn't necessary, of course, but much of it (if
intelligently chosen & properly installed) makes life while
sailing/cruising SAFER as well as more comfortable.


rhys wrote:
Absolutely. Slocum probably didn't have lifelines, but probably *did*
rig preventers, etc.


The ironic thing about Slocum is that his boat was an old-fashioned
anachronism, backwards to the point of comedy, even at the time he was
sailing it. And he did it that way because he couldn't afford better...
if he hadn't been flat broke, he wouldn't have gone on his solo voyage.


I have no argument against modern equipment: modern materials
(Spectra, carbon fibre, etc.) are clearly superior in almost all
respects excepting price G. But there are multiple cut-offs, in my
opinion, between modern and useful and modern and (potentially)
dangerous gear and ideas in the bluewater yacht world.

Well, don't blur the line between the gear & it's potential, and the
actual use to which many people put it.


... One such
break-point, for me, are assistive devices like electric winches or
windlasses: if you are older and/or weaker and/or short-handed, and
the only way you can handle that big beautiful boat is via such
devices, you are pretty well stuck if they break.

Yep- and unless you have the technical knowledge to maintain them well,
they will break constantly. Another bit of irony, if you *do* have that
knowledge then you can probably fix it yourself as well.

In this hi-tech age, it's still good advice IMHO to not have anything on
your cruising boat that you can't fix yourself. And it's a still a very
achievable goal.




I am rather more distressed, if not surprised, at the lack of basic
seamanship in said bigger boats than I am worried at expensive and
possibly superfluous gear that breaks. We hear more and more of
GPS-piloted boats running onto reefs, of crew unable to stop the boat
to do a MOB, with subsequent loss of life, of bozos with zero
knowledge yakking to their fellow bozos on VHF, etc.

Right, but you seem to want to blame it on the VHF, the GPS, the
autopilot, etc etc. This is like blaming forks & spoons for obesity.

The real problem here is one of cultural relativity... when we go
cruising we want to "get away from it all" but many try to take it all
with them... including their consumer-based cultural values. Those of us
who plan our lives with a bit of common sense don't fare so poorly!



Watching the news last night, for instance, I saw several shots of
nice big yachts in (presumably) the Florida Keys, riding out Hurricane
Rita at anchor.

Fair enough. But under what part of basic seamanship do you leave a
foresail on a roller-furler or a mainsail on a boom (in one instance
unlashed and with the sail cover already shredding and straining the
rode)?


Doesn't bother me a bit, except that they drive up insurance rates for
the rest of us.


This month's Ocean Navigator has a "future of voyaging" section which
is in parts a bit pessimistic in this way: it's not terrorism or high
fuel prices that will cut back on voyaging, it's the unwillingness of
a lot of cruisers to learn the basics of navigation and boat-handling
because they are focused on the gleaming saloon or the wonderful
washer/dryer in the forepeak...G


A regular poster here had an answer for that, can't remember the exact
phrase. Something to the effect of "If you think learning to navigate is
boring, just imagine how exciting it is to hit the rocks!"

Don't worry, a lot of these boats will be for sale cheap. Lack of
interest will bring down marina prices too.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

In article , DSK
wrote:

A technologist would express a 'blue water' boat as designed with all
critical components specified with a safety factor of 4 or more; a
coastal boat @ 3, a 'production' coastal boat @ 2.

What I mean by safety factor is the deduction of stress imparted to a
structure such as having a stainless steel component with 90,000 psi
ultimate properties and designing the *function* at 22,500 psi applied
stress ..... for a safety factor of 4. If you discuss such with the
reknown designers of 'blue water' boats they will relate that they do
design with such a 4X safety factor, more if the boat is going to the
'high latitudes'. They will also give you a lighterweight coastal
design of the exact same size, shape & configuration but at SF of 3, or
you can buy a 'production' boat that sometimes approaches SF of 2.

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:10:41 -0400, rhys wrote:

One such
break-point, for me, are assistive devices like electric winches or
windlasses: if you are older and/or weaker and/or short-handed, and
the only way you can handle that big beautiful boat is via such
devices, you are pretty well stuck if they break.

Unless you have a satisfactory backup plan, like taking longer to do
the job, or taking other steps to make it easier. All of those hauling
jobs can be accomplished slowly with a block and tackle, but it's
hardly an enjoyable way to do it.

I don't have a windlass, electric or otherwise, but there are
certainly days when I wouldn't mind a little help.

Ryk

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 23:42:21 -0400, Ryk
wrote:


Unless you have a satisfactory backup plan, like taking longer to do
the job, or taking other steps to make it easier. All of those hauling
jobs can be accomplished slowly with a block and tackle, but it's
hardly an enjoyable way to do it.

That depends. If you are trying to coastal cruise in a two-week
vacation window, more power...literally...to you. If you are
passage-making, wherein you combine longish trips with longish
anchoring-out, you might want both the security of the manual
"old-school" options, not to mention the needed exercise. It used to
be noted that a lot of cruising couples had massive backs and
shoulders from winch-work, and skinny little legs from little more
strain than bracing themselves in a cockpit. These days, of course,
you just install a marinized folding exercise bike in the saloon as
your automatic bilge pumps whirr...G

I don't have a windlass, electric or otherwise, but there are
certainly days when I wouldn't mind a little help.

And I wouldn't begrudge it to you. But I would suggest a manual
windlass, or even a come-along/handy-billy, just for the exercise in a
Great Lakes type of situation.

It's not the electric gear I find problematic in a blue-water (as per
the original poster) situation; it's the exclusive reliance on
electric gear. For the record, I like stuff like spring-wound starter
motors and windvanes, as well...but I'm no Luddite, just prudent, I
hope.

R.

Rhys makes an important point here... It=B4s fine to have the toys to
make things a little easier, but without the routine exercise to keep
the muscles working, (not to mention the mind), you won=B4t have it when
you really need it.