On 12 Aug 2005 21:02:56 -0700, wrote:

Somebody ought to get a fleet of old mid-size boats together in a cheap
place in FL and lease (option to buy with part of lease payments going
toward purchase) them to people who want to try the cruising life
without spending yrs planning.

That's a very good idea, although I bet the insurance companies would
have a field day on the liability front.

Two-footitis is rampant: you can get a Shark or a small '70s cruiser
(Mirage, Edel, Kelt, Tanzer) for very few dollars because the original
owners are retiring or moving up to trawlers or Beneteaus/Hunters and
nobody seems to want a boat that just sleeps three and has perhaps an
"exposed" head and a butane ring for a galley.

But they sail just fine up to 25 knots.

R.

I've heard it rumored that good deals can be had in Papeete Tahiti F.P. from time
to time. Cash, as is, where is.

ymmv,

Don W.

rhys wrote:


I don't wish to seem as if I am waiting to pounce on such situations,
but that's how I fully expect to find our boat: someone who turned
back, or started too late, and now has a 90-99% ocean-ready vessel on
the hard eating yard fees.

R.

"rhys" wrote in message
...
On 12 Aug 2005 13:33:27 -0700, wrote:

I hear this sort of thing a lot, that life is short and people should
do what they really want to do etc.....However, i think many people
talk about doing things they really do NOT want to do as if they would
like to do them. Cruising can be stressful, like, "Will my anchor
hold..." When the opportunity really comes, many people will find they
really do not want to sail away because normal life really is
comfortable while life on a 27' boat will be fairly uncomfortable a
lot.

That is why our game plan for five-seven years of world cruising in
mid-life includes the following:

1) Have the wife take a teacher's degree to teach our kid and to offer
a tutor service to fellow cruisers and/or teaching terms ashore. Learn
diesel maintenance, celestial, diving.

2) Develop new markets for my (successful) freelance writing into the
travel/sail/tech aboard fields...not a stretch.

3) Spend as much time as possible living aboard in Lake Ontario on our
present boat, which is old school and pretty minimal, but big enough
to tackle bad weather.

4) Join passagemakers as crew to see if life on salt water is really
for us.

5) Repeat.

6) Repeat. Repeat until you've got some real sea hours and you get
sensibly frightened, but reasonably experienced. G

7) Rejig paid off house as income rental property, and THEN get a 50%
mortgage against it and go ocean-boat shopping.

8) Live aboard new used boat in Toronto for one year while house is
renting out. Try to replicate cruising life by finding what works,
what doesn't.

Only if each of those steps works out--particularly both of us making
separate offshore trips as crew and then TOGETHER as crew--would we
actually get a new boat. The boat we have is offshore capable--many
have gone to the Carribean, for instance, but is too small and tender
for my tastes. But all the human elements have to be in place before I
would essentially mortgage my future to take a mid-life sabbatical.

However, the rationale is to go NOW and not when advancing years,
health issues or putting a kid through college make it less likely. We
want to be at sea (or as foreign-based live-aboards) when my kid is
between seven/eight to 13-14, at which point we plan to get him back
for high school with some real life experience under his belt instead
of Nintendo thumb and a pasty fat arse.

Wish us well...the house is paid off in six months and the sextant is
becoming familiar and the wife's applying for teacher's college this
fall.

R.

Sounds like a good plan, especially have to agree with the bit about doing
it now when you're able to. Met a fair number of older cruisers last spring
in Trinidad that were giving up the sea cruising lifestyle for land
cruising, the common reason given was advancing age, I also suspect that the
wives were getting sick of living aboard full time.

John Cairns

In article ,
Rosalie B. wrote:

You should only spend years building a boat IMHO if your dream is
boat building. If your dream is sailing, the buy a boat and sail.


Oh, this deserves special note, as it's easily observable truth.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Jere Lull wrote:
In article ,
Rosalie B. wrote:


You should only spend years building a boat IMHO if your dream is
boat building. If your dream is sailing, the buy a boat and sail.



Oh, this deserves special note, as it's easily observable truth.

OTOH, we did meet a nice Canadian couple in Grand Turk who were
cruising on their huge trimaran that they had built while awaiting
retirement. I'm sure it was a lot of work, but they owned it out
right.

Don W.

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 03:33:03 GMT, Jere Lull wrote:

In article ,
Rosalie B. wrote:

You should only spend years building a boat IMHO if your dream is
boat building. If your dream is sailing, the buy a boat and sail.


Oh, this deserves special note, as it's easily observable truth.

Agreed, but I would make a side observation that I've found has
real-life application.

If a home builder of some skill (say a professional welder working
from a Bruce Roberts kit) gets to the 90% complete mark in finishing a
cruiser (say, temporary "plywood and bench" interior, but with engine,
mast(s) and all hull work finished), and then decides to give it up
due to a host of reasons (age, illness, loss of interest in cruising
offshore), you can purchase the equivalent of a $150,000 vessel for a
small percentage, and then have it custom-finished to your
specifications.

I have looked at several such boats, ranging from "hopelessly rusting
empty hulls" to "just add teak", and it is very surprising just how
finished an unfinished and "hard to sell" boat can be.

Obviously, competant and focussed surveying is essential in such
cases, as is a willingness to shell out to a decent carpenter/boatyard
to get the thing complete. This, however, can be a real opportunity
and can save tens of thousands of dollars if done right.

There are a lot of "stillborn" boats out there, but some can be
successfully revived.

This has to be offset by the availability of decent used boats in your
area, price point, etc., but I've seen some half-finished interiors
that have allowed me to peer at absolutely top-notch gear and systems
that will never see the ocean when a capable home builder falls ill,
gives up or dies.

A tad ghoulish, but there it is. Better the boat gets used than not.

R.

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 02:11:54 GMT, "John Cairns"
wrote:


Sounds like a good plan, especially have to agree with the bit about doing
it now when you're able to. Met a fair number of older cruisers last spring
in Trinidad that were giving up the sea cruising lifestyle for land
cruising, the common reason given was advancing age, I also suspect that the
wives were getting sick of living aboard full time.

Were my wife not fully behind this (and quite aware of the Spartan
elements of living aboard), I wouldn't pursue this dream by myself,
particularly as it involves a large financial commitment. But she's a
sailor in her own right, and understands the nature of odyssey.

Also, she's just 31 (I am 44). In 20 years time, *I* might not want to
go, either!

R.

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 03:56:12 GMT, Don W
wrote:

I've heard it rumored that good deals can be had in Papeete Tahiti F.P. from time
to time. Cash, as is, where is.

ymmv,

Don W.

Panama is another "end of the line" hot spot. Brokers' listings, if
read incisively, tell a lot of unhappy stories.

R.

rhys wrote:
Agreed, but I would make a side observation that I've found has
real-life application.

If a home builder of some skill (say a professional welder working
from a Bruce Roberts kit) gets to the 90% complete mark in finishing a
cruiser (say, temporary "plywood and bench" interior, but with engine,
mast(s) and all hull work finished), and then decides to give it up
due to a host of reasons (age, illness, loss of interest in cruising
offshore), you can purchase the equivalent of a $150,000 vessel for a
small percentage, and then have it custom-finished to your
specifications.

Not so. The "equivalent of a $150,000 vessel" would be one that was
fully found and ready to put to sea. What you're getting is a potential
vessel, which needs an undetermined amount of future expense & labor.

If the potential boat is exactly the design you've always wanted, and
the previous builder was a meticulous perfectionist who spared no amount
of money on tools & materials and no amount of his own time, and is so
sick of the potential boat and/or desperate for cash he'll hand it over
for a song (or better yet, pay you to haul it off), then it can be a
good deal.




I have looked at several such boats, ranging from "hopelessly rusting
empty hulls" to "just add teak", and it is very surprising just how
finished an unfinished and "hard to sell" boat can be.


Not surprising at all, at least not to my cynical eye. They're trying to
sell a very personal dream. Only a person who shares the dream will be
at all interested, and most won't have much money.


Obviously, competant and focussed surveying is essential in such
cases

IMHO what would be most essential would be a complete and honest
estimate of how much $$ & work is required to get the boat sailing. That
estimate, doubled, is probably near the lower threshold of what it'll
*really* take.




There are a lot of "stillborn" boats out there, but some can be
successfully revived.

This has to be offset by the availability of decent used boats in your
area, price point, etc., but I've seen some half-finished interiors
that have allowed me to peer at absolutely top-notch gear and systems
that will never see the ocean when a capable home builder falls ill,
gives up or dies.

A tad ghoulish, but there it is. Better the boat gets used than not.


True. Actually, home builders may find your attitude ghoulish but IMHO
you're a starry-eyed optimist. Consider another part of the same
equation: the number of perfectly good (or at least, completed) boats
that sit unsailed in marinas everywhere.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:52:43 -0400, DSK wrote:


Not so. The "equivalent of a $150,000 vessel" would be one that was
fully found and ready to put to sea. What you're getting is a potential
vessel, which needs an undetermined amount of future expense & labor.

OK, fair enough. Let's say "equivalent of a $150,000 vessel should I
finish it in the same manner it was started by paying pros $50,000 and
having bought it for $30,000, thus saving $70,000 on a like-new boat".

If the potential boat is exactly the design you've always wanted, and
the previous builder was a meticulous perfectionist who spared no amount
of money on tools & materials and no amount of his own time, and is so
sick of the potential boat and/or desperate for cash he'll hand it over
for a song (or better yet, pay you to haul it off), then it can be a
good deal.

Exactly.



I have looked at several such boats, ranging from "hopelessly rusting
empty hulls" to "just add teak", and it is very surprising just how
finished an unfinished and "hard to sell" boat can be.


Not surprising at all, at least not to my cynical eye. They're trying to
sell a very personal dream. Only a person who shares the dream will be
at all interested, and most won't have much money.

The idea is that I have the money to buy a new production boat, but I
find in many cases the ideas of somewhat conservative perfectionist
obsessives suit me better. Ask a Beneteau sales dude "but where do I
put the tap set and the bench vise?" and you'll see why I don't like a
lot of today's boats for offshore work. There ARE decent, functional,
non-dock-jewellery-oriented production cruisers out there, but they
tend to be European and frighteningly expensive. If I do buy used,
instead of 90% finished, it's likely to be in Europe or South Africa
due to the seamanlike mentality.

Obviously, competant and focussed surveying is essential in such
cases

IMHO what would be most essential would be a complete and honest
estimate of how much $$ & work is required to get the boat sailing. That
estimate, doubled, is probably near the lower threshold of what it'll
*really* take.

I do understand this. Let me say that I've seen boats completed to
full sailing spec, except for interiors, which were plywood seats and
soles covered in indoor-outdoor carpeting. Everything else was mint
and very, very well put together. Had the boat been six feet longer, I
would have bought it on the spot, as a weekend with a Sawzall would
have cleared the way for a carpenter and cabinet maker to do a custom
interior to my specs, which would be oriented to workspace, seaberths
and stowage and less to big cushy chairs in the middle of the saloon
G. But you are correct about boat dollars: multiply by two and
banish shock and horror.




True. Actually, home builders may find your attitude ghoulish but IMHO
you're a starry-eyed optimist. Consider another part of the same
equation: the number of perfectly good (or at least, completed) boats
that sit unsailed in marinas everywhere.

Well, I haven't been dubbed optimistic in some time, but as I did just
purchase a new sextant, I'll take it under advisement. And yes, the
other half of the equation is completed, decent, barely sailed boats
that are pre-rotted but priced to move all over the place.

The problem there, of course, is travelling to see what might be a dud
(expensive unless you've lined up 20 boats in Florida, say, and devote
a week to poking around). The other hazard is trying to divine the
type of owner: some guys IMPROVE the boat by judicious retrofitting;
others are ignorant slobs. I would prefer to solve problems of my own
making than paying big bucks for the opportunity to remedy the
negligence of others.

Thanks for your thoughts,
R.