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"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message ... Anyone care to discuss the relative reliability of autopilots(electric/electronic) vs wind vanes for sail boats? Are wind vanes still widely used? BS There is a great free online book here http://www.windpilot.com/Grafiken/pdf/bookeng.pdf Have sailed with a few of these and have nothing but praise for the windpilot. garry |
Auto steering gear
Anyone care to discuss the relative reliability of
autopilots(electric/electronic) vs wind vanes for sail boats? Are wind vanes still widely used? BS |
In "Robert or Karen Swarts" writes:
Anyone care to discuss the relative reliability of autopilots(electric/electronic) vs wind vanes for sail boats? Are wind vanes still widely used? The electric autopilots and windvanes are a totally different kettle of fish. Both steer the boat, but their best areaof application is a bit different. A medium range autopilot can be bought by some 300 dollars or Euros and a windvane will cost you about ten times as much. If you are a coastal sailor and want to have the gear to relieve you from the helm for some time, the autopilot is sufficient if the conditions are not extreme. If you want to cross the ocean then I will advice you to buy a good windvane. If you have a servo-pendulum windvane you will find out that the harder it blows the better you trust it. Especially on a run in big vaves and oskillating winds the windvane is superior to the autopilot, unless you buy an autopilot to match the price of the windvane. The important difference is that the servo pendulum vindvane gets the power to steer from the boat speed throught the water, the vane only turns the angle of the servo blade and the faster you go, the stronger is the steering movement. Most of the autopilots have a "single speed" electric motor that is on or off and the speed of the steering action is not related to the boat speed. That makes the feedback and the damping of the movement very difficult. There is a strong competition between the autopilot manufacturers and as they are more or less related to some big electronic companies they can invest lots of money to advertising and because most of the sailors are coastal sailors they sell a lot of the equipment. On the other hand the Windvane business is a handiceaft and small business, for example the market leader German Windpilot is owned and run by one man. He has some sophisticated computer steered engineering machinery, but the pilots are done one by one and assembled by hand and they are sold more by from "mouth to mouth" and "satisfied custores is the best add" principle you do not hear about them if you do not move in the right circles. Most people who have a windvane have an electronic pilot as well. They use it while shorthanded hoistin sails or comin or leaving ports, but as soon as they are at large, they will put the windvane on. The windvane does not use any electricity and is absolutely silent. The autopilots try to give you the impression that their power consuption is some 0.7 Amperes, but if you end up running in difficult conditions then they will use some 4-6 Amperes, enough to dry many batteries used on todays small craft. I believe that the autopilot are sold in bigger quantities perhas some ratio 100:1 or even 1000:1, but if you take some off shore sailors then the ratio is 1:1 because they have both. - Lauri Tarkkonen |
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:17:14 -0700, "Robert or Karen Swarts"
wrote: Anyone care to discuss the relative reliability of autopilots(electric/electronic) vs wind vanes for sail boats? Are wind vanes still widely used? BS No personal insights...Still, autopilots fail if overheated or close to a lightning stroke. Wind vanes fail from wearout and from wind gusts. Wind vanes are prized by blue water cruisers by all accounts Brian Whatcott |
In Brian Whatcott writes:
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:17:14 -0700, "Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote: Anyone care to discuss the relative reliability of autopilots(electric/electronic) vs wind vanes for sail boats? Are wind vanes still widely used? BS No personal insights...Still, autopilots fail if overheated or close to a lightning stroke. Wind vanes fail from wearout and from wind gusts. Wind vanes are prized by blue water cruisers by all accounts I believe you do not have personal insights, there are two kinds of windvanes, the cheapos and the proper ones like Windpilot, Monitor, Aries and they last for some 20 years or double that. They are made from good (expensive) materials by hand. By the way, if you look at the detailed picture of Windpilot, you will find that it has about 100 parts all nuts and washers counted. Some 10 years ago some of the BOAC round the world single handed sailors had up to 20 pieces of Autohelm pilots so they could just throw them overboard at the rate they failed. - Lauri Tarkkonen |
Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:
Some 10 years ago some of the BOAC round the world single handed sailors had up to 20 pieces of Autohelm pilots so they could just throw them overboard at the rate they failed. I am not thinking of the BOC or anything like it, but I presently carry 3 tiller pilots on my 28 foot boat. Experience is my teacher, as I have had up to 2 pilots fail during an extended cruise. This while having cracked an important casting on the windvane and almost having to (drat!) actually steer. -- Good luck and good sailing. s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat http://home.comcast.net/~kerrydeare |
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I think for distance passages, the windvane has no equal. My personal
feeling is the boat handles better and sails better with the vane, because everything is relating to the wind. A big puff, the boat starts to head up, the lines tighten, the vane straightens the boat out, the electric auto pilot never quite as "in sync" to me. The one thing I haven't seen mentioned is the practice of some to take a tiller pilot and mate it to the windvane servos so that a relatively small auto pilot can handle a larger boat. I've read of people doing it, I have no first hand experience with that set up. I have an Autohelm 3000. It works fine, for keeping on course under power and many points of sail, but I much prefer the vanes I sailed with on other's boats, and I'll get one when I can justify it. good luck. Jonathan Robert or Karen Swarts wrote: Anyone care to discuss the relative reliability of autopilots(electric/electronic) vs wind vanes for sail boats? Are wind vanes still widely used? BS -- I am building a Dudley Dix, Argie 10 for my daughter. Check it out: http://home.comcast.net/~jonsailr |
On 22 Jul 2005 16:59:00 GMT, (Lauri Tarkkonen)
wrote: In "Robert or Karen Swarts" writes: - Lauri Tarkkonen That was an excellent post, Lauri. R. |
"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in
: Anyone care to discuss the relative reliability of autopilots(electric/electronic) vs wind vanes for sail boats? Are wind vanes still widely used? BS Lionheart, an Amel 41' ketch, is steered with a B&G Network Pilot electro- hydraulic autopilot directly on the steering post under the aft cabin bed. Its hydraulic cylinder is attached to the rudder post bellcrank with a small ball joint, a miniature trailer hitch ball. Even if the entire steering cable system fails (it looks like a heavy outboard flexible system with dual enclosed flexcables), we can still steer the boat from the helm or from the remote control box, providing there is DC power to run it. DC power is two banks of L-16H 6V monsters. Power R' Us. The only problem we've had with it is the chinzy way B&G attaches the linear feedback sensor to the hydraulic cylinder, which comes loose eventually and must be retightened and calibrated if you're not careful. They buy this sensor from another manufacturer and don't seem to know how to attach it to their cylinder, reliably. As to operation, I have no trouble sleeping right on top of the running hydraulic pump system, which only runs when the cylinder needs moving. You can't hear it out of the aft cabin in the rest of the boat. From the center cockpit, it's as if a ghost were at the helm...(c; There are 3 modes....computer/chart plotter...or...its own compass sensor...or...B&G Network Wind instrument on top of the mainmast, which steers it on the wind like an extraordinary windvane would. All this is selected from the Pilot's panel display, same size as the other B&G Network sailing instruments in the helm's panel. It accepts NMEA0183 data very well from our computer under The Cap'n nav software, either the RAymarine RL70CRC radar/chart plotter, or the old Garmin 185 GPS/Chartplotter/Sonar or from the Yeoman paper chart plotter's waypoints under our chart table cover. As with any autopilot, when the going gets rough, it's as useless as any of them when it gets lost.....and you're left to steer by hand lock to lock trying against hell to hold her on a course....with the wind sensor spinning around crazy, the compass sensor being churned by being thrown about and all the rudder in the world unable to steer the damned boat.... -- Larry |
In Brian Whatcott writes:
On 22 Jul 2005 18:12:13 GMT, (Lauri Tarkkonen) wrote: Anyone care to discuss the relative reliability of autopilots(electric/electronic) vs wind vanes for sail boats? Are wind vanes still widely used? BS No personal insights...Still, autopilots fail if overheated or close to a lightning stroke. Wind vanes fail from wearout and from wind gusts. Wind vanes are prized by blue water cruisers by all accounts I believe you do not have personal insights, /// - Lauri Tarkkonen Pretty astute, Lauri: I disclose that I have no personal insights. You respond that you believe I don't have personal insights. Do you think that kind of comment qualifies you in some way? You discqualify your own opinnion by saying that you have no... I stand by my comments. Surely you cannot suppose that wind vanes DON't wear out, or that they cannot be overwhelmed in a storm gust? Every part in a boat wears off, but a quality windvane is no worse than other equipment and you can expect a service age of more than 20 years of a quality windvane if you treat it properly. A servo pendulum windvane has much more power than the autopilots usually seen on yachts. Of course you can post opinions but it would perhaps surprise you if you try to back your opinions with some knowledge. - Lauri Tarkkonen |
In Dave writes:
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:47:44 -0400, Jonathan said: My personal feeling is the boat handles better and sails better with the vane, because everything is relating to the wind. A big puff, the boat starts to head up, the lines tighten, the vane straightens the boat out, the electric auto pilot never quite as "in sync" to me. Of course the autopilot can also be controlled by a vane and thus made to steer relative to the wind rather than a compass heading. Autohelm has such an option, though I haven't tried it. This is the theory and what the sellers tell you. The feedback is too slow and there are very few autopilots where the steering is related to the boat speed, as it is done in a servo-pendulum windvane. It is much more expensive or it is consuming more curent to make a autopilot with an motor that relates to the speed of the boat. - Lauri Tarkkonen |
In Larry writes:
"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in : Anyone care to discuss the relative reliability of autopilots(electric/electronic) vs wind vanes for sail boats? Are wind vanes still widely used? BS Lionheart, an Amel 41' ketch, is steered with a B&G Network Pilot electro- hydraulic autopilot directly on the steering post under the aft cabin bed. Its hydraulic cylinder is attached to the rudder post bellcrank with a small ball joint, a miniature trailer hitch ball. Even if the entire steering cable system fails (it looks like a heavy outboard flexible system with dual enclosed flexcables), we can still steer the boat from the helm or from the remote control box, providing there is DC power to run it. DC power is two banks of L-16H 6V monsters. Power R' Us. The only problem we've had with it is the chinzy way B&G attaches the linear feedback sensor to the hydraulic cylinder, which comes loose eventually and must be retightened and calibrated if you're not careful. They buy this sensor from another manufacturer and don't seem to know how to attach it to their cylinder, reliably. As to operation, I have no trouble sleeping right on top of the running hydraulic pump system, which only runs when the cylinder needs moving. You can't hear it out of the aft cabin in the rest of the boat. From the center cockpit, it's as if a ghost were at the helm...(c; There are 3 modes....computer/chart plotter...or...its own compass sensor...or...B&G Network Wind instrument on top of the mainmast, which steers it on the wind like an extraordinary windvane would. All this is selected from the Pilot's panel display, same size as the other B&G Network sailing instruments in the helm's panel. It accepts NMEA0183 data very well from our computer under The Cap'n nav software, either the RAymarine RL70CRC radar/chart plotter, or the old Garmin 185 GPS/Chartplotter/Sonar or from the Yeoman paper chart plotter's waypoints under our chart table cover. As with any autopilot, when the going gets rough, it's as useless as any of them when it gets lost.....and you're left to steer by hand lock to lock trying against hell to hold her on a course....with the wind sensor spinning around crazy, the compass sensor being churned by being thrown about and all the rudder in the world unable to steer the damned boat.... You cave the best argument for the windvane. The autopilots how expensive one you ever buy, is for the fair weather. When the going gets rough, the windvane will carry you trhough. - Lauri Tarkkonen |
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In Brian Whatcott writes:
On 23 Jul 2005 06:58:36 GMT, (Lauri Tarkkonen) wrote: [Brian] Wind vanes fail from wearout and from wind gusts. Wind vanes are prized by blue water cruisers by all accounts [Brian] Surely you cannot suppose that wind vanes DON't wear out, or that they cannot be overwhelmed in a storm gust? [Lauri] Every part in a boat wears off, but a quality windvane is no worse than other equipment and you can expect a service age of more than 20 years of a quality windvane if you treat it properly. A servo pendulum windvane has much more power than the autopilots usually seen on yachts. - Lauri Tarkkonen Lauri, you seem curiously defensive of windvanes - do you have some monetary interest in these devices? Do you feel that an increase in power implies an increase in reliability? As to offering opinions - it is indeed a strange thing, but engineers are often willing to offer engineering opinions on equipment reliability even on examples of products they have not personally used. Does this seem presumptuous to you? Respectfully Brian Whatcott Altus, OK Your suggestion that I have an financial interest in this is insulting. I just have some real experience about these devices and I have done my homework before I bought one. I have had some 7 autopilots and one windvane and I have sailed with few others and istalled one ohter than mine. Opinions based on beliefs do not have much practical value, they might be a nice discussion piece, but looks like you do not want to discuss your beliefs as nobody is permitted to challenge them, the facts of course are yuor worst enemy. There is some variation in the quality of all engineering products, but I qualified my statement saying that it stands for quality winpilots. Of course you do not know the difference even is you see one. - Lauri Tarkkonen |
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In Brian Whatcott writes:
On 23 Jul 2005 20:19:22 GMT, (Lauri Tarkkonen) wrote: [Brian] As to offering opinions - it is indeed a strange thing, but engineers are often willing to offer engineering opinions on equipment reliability even on examples of products they have not personally used. Does this seem presumptuous to you? Respectfully Brian Whatcott Altus, OK [Lauri] Opinions based on beliefs do not have much practical value, they might be a nice discussion piece, but looks like you do not want to discuss your beliefs as nobody is permitted to challenge them, the facts of course are yuor worst enemy. - Lauri Tarkkonen Hmmm...Lauri seems to have got himself into an awful tizzy about my modest first post: here's what I said in full: #################### No personal insights...Still, autopilots fail if overheated or close to a lightning stroke. Wind vanes fail from wearout and from wind gusts. Wind vanes are prized by blue water cruisers by all accounts Brian Whatcott ##################### Let me write that last sentence again, very, very slowly: "Wind vanes are prized by blue-water sailors." Now it is just possible that Lauri disagrees, disagrees violently with my opinion on wind vanes. And it may even be, as he says, that the facts are my worst enemy... But here's what I think, for what it's worth: Lauri's command of the language is such that he wants to disagree violently with someone who is holding out the same position as he is. That's silly. wouldn't you think? Not so respectfully Brian Whatcott [This is my last contribution to this wonderfully uninformative thread. I would have found it helpful to learn just which autopilots failed seven times (if they did ) in Lauri's hands, and which wind vane is behaving so beautifully for him. But those are in the nature of facts - and Lauri tells me that I am not interested in such things! Ah well....] So I have had 7 autopilots: Navico 1800, repaired 3 times, Navico 2500 repaired 3 times, Fuso (Ido not remember the number) after 3 years of use corroded beyond repair) Autohlem 4000, the main logic board changed twice by the manufacturer nad Autohelm 4000 ST, the main logic board changed once by the manufacturer. Windpilot Pacific no problems whatsoever. Then I do not remember the make of the two first ones, they vere yellow boxes looking like this (_o) "o" representing a drum where you had the rope to the tiller. They never worked properly, the second was the factory replacement for the first one, but because even it did not work for any satisfaction I moved on. Salt water and electronics do not mix well. I made some 5 years research before buying my Windpilot. I discussed with the manufacturers of Aries, Monitor, Fleming, Navik, Cap Horn and Windpilot and had some e-meil discussion with the users of these windvanes. Many of the users of Monitor, Aries and Windpilot took their windvanes with them when they got a new boat. I did not hear about anybody bothering to take their electronic pilot with them. In very light winds and while motoring I use the Autohelm 4000 ST, but if there is wind enough for the boat to go over 3 knots the windvane get the job. When you speak about reliability looks like you do not understand that the ability to steer the boat in difficult conditions is a factor of the reliability. When the wind comes up to some 30 knots, most of the tiller pilots are useles, especially on a run in difficult mixed wave conditions. My wife was very unwilling to owernight sailing, if she had to be alone on the watch, but after we got the Windpilot, she says, se can absolutety trust it, so now she is willing to do it. You give the impression that the windvanes fail on guts, I can promise you that there are many parts in a sailing boat more prone to break than the proper windvanes. Perhaps you never go to the sea, becvause there are so many things that can break in a sailing boat. I do not speak or write English as my first language, not even the second or third, so if you feel competent to inult my lingual ability why are you not doing it in Finnish, Swedish or German. Just to tell you something we have learned about the engineers here in Finland, but looks like it might be true all over the world: If a 2 feet piece of railroad and an engineer get into an artument, which one gives in first? The railroas, because it is smarter. - Lauri Tarkkonen |
Lauri,
When you speak about reliability looks like you do not understand that the ability to steer the boat in difficult conditions is a factor of the reliability. Another example of the condescending adversarial tone you've set in this thread - see below: You give the impression that the windvanes fail on guts, I can promise you that there are many parts in a sailing boat more prone to break than the proper windvanes. Irrelevant - he never made comparisons against other systems, merely states the obvious. i.e. mechanical systems *do* wear, and *do* break, as do electromechanical or pneumatic systems. You were seemingly saying that *proper* windvanes don't wear or break, which is patently false. I do not speak or write English as my first language, not even the second or third, so if you feel competent to inult my lingual ability He was stating an obvious fact. His post was in agreement, in large part, with your position. You've continually failed to understand that, and have become progressively more insulting and belligerent when he has tried to point out your misunderstanding. I think he was being generous in attributing your inability to understand to a language difficulty. Just to tell you something we have learned about the engineers here in Finland, but looks like it might be true all over the world: If a 2 feet piece of railroad and an engineer get into an artument, which one gives in first? The railroas, because it is smarter. My point exactly. At the end of yet another post where the respondent has tried to point out that *he is agreeing with your position*, you're telling him *he's* stupid. So...you're either failing to comprehend the post material, or you're simply an ass. How about you do yourself, and us, a favor and re-read this thread, then decide which is the case before you continue this tirade. BTW, if you're that sensitive about your language skills, Usenet will get very frustrating for you. Contrary to what you obviously believe, most of us here (in English speaking countries) have a good deal of respect for the folks around the world that are able to communicate in a foreign language, but we also expect that there will be times when fluency impedes understanding. So lighten up; it's not an insult. Keith Hughes |
In Keith Hughes writes:
Lauri, When you speak about reliability looks like you do not understand that the ability to steer the boat in difficult conditions is a factor of the reliability. Another example of the condescending adversarial tone you've set in this thread - see below: If you are not happy with the tone of my posts, why do you bother to read them. Is it forbidded to be critical of one's narrow scope of the reliability issue? You give the impression that the windvanes fail on guts, I can promise you that there are many parts in a sailing boat more prone to break than the proper windvanes. Irrelevant - he never made comparisons against other systems, merely states the obvious. i.e. mechanical systems *do* wear, and *do* break, as do electromechanical or pneumatic systems. You were seemingly saying that *proper* windvanes don't wear or break, which is patently false. If this is obvious, what kind of information does it give to the reader? By the way, where is the logic in telling that the windvanes wear of and fail in gusts and anyway are prized by the blue water sailors? I must say, I fail to undestand this. I would think that the blue water sailors would pize and apreciate things that do not break in the middle of the ocean. I do not speak or write English as my first language, not even the second or third, so if you feel competent to inult my lingual ability He was stating an obvious fact. His post was in agreement, in large part, with your position. You've continually failed to understand that, and have become progressively more insulting and belligerent when he has tried to point out your misunderstanding. I think he was being generous in attributing your inability to understand to a language difficulty. I did not know that insulting a writer in foreign language was being generous. Thank you for the information. Just to tell you something we have learned about the engineers here in Finland, but looks like it might be true all over the world: If a 2 feet piece of railroad and an engineer get into an artument, which one gives in first? The railroas, because it is smarter. My point exactly. At the end of yet another post where the respondent has tried to point out that *he is agreeing with your position*, you're telling him *he's* stupid. So...you're either failing to comprehend the post material, or you're simply an ass. How about you do yourself, and us, a favor and re-read this thread, then decide which is the case before you continue this tirade. You start to be really polite. BTW, if you're that sensitive about your language skills, Usenet will get very frustrating for you. Contrary to what you obviously believe, most of us here (in English speaking countries) have a good deal of respect for the folks around the world that are able to communicate in a foreign language, but we also expect that there will be times when fluency impedes understanding. So lighten up; it's not an insult. I think you sleep better if you put me in your kill-file. :-) - Lauri Tarkkonen |
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:17:14 -0700, "Robert or Karen Swarts"
wrote: Anyone care to discuss the relative reliability of autopilots(electric/electronic) vs wind vanes for sail boats? Are wind vanes still widely used? BS You ask about relative reliability. In our 50ft 23 tonnes Reinke we've mounted a Simrad AP300X and a Robertson hydraulic pump. Works fine, never had a problem (mounted in 1997) Uses a lot of power (my guess is with normal conditions (4-6 bft) it consumes 3 amp average) for that reason we don't use it at sea. For the longer trips we have a Windpilot Pacific Plus. Take a look at http://www.windpilot.com I agree with Lauri that these devices don't apply to the same area's so comparing reliability seems a bit unnecessary. I have two additions to his (imo very good) info: 1) What you ask for is comparing a mechanical instrument with an electronic/mechanical one. My experience with electronics is bad (in average).... As Lauri says, with correct maintenance (keeping the salt out, occ. lubricating) a Windpilot windvane will last decades. For our Windpilot it makes sense to carry some (inexpensive) spares, steering rods, SS-mounting pins. When you buy the last version there is nothing (yet) known as a vulnerable part. When you buy a pre-1998 model you could consider replacing the rudder with the last model. 2) When you install a windvane as a seperate rudder (the site explains if necessary) you will have to immobilize your main rudder (after you've set it in the fine trim). A mechanical main rudder is no problem here but a hydraulic system will always leak a little bit of hydr oil inside the cylinder. Therefor you will have to design and build a means of immobilizing the rudder mechanically. When you leave this behind the sideways-pressure on the main rudder will press oil through the inside o-rings in the cilinder and your rudder will alter its position, slowly but certainly. It's effect is like pulling the handbrake more and more.... The way this mechanical immobilizing device is designed and built is another factor specifying reliability. Just my 2 cts, Regards, Len. |
In ahoy writes:
On 23 Jul 2005 07:06:52 GMT, (Lauri Tarkkonen) wrote: In Larry writes: "Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in : Anyone care to discuss the relative reliability of autopilots(electric/electronic) vs wind vanes for sail boats? Are wind vanes still widely used? BS Lionheart, an Amel 41' ketch, is steered with a B&G Network Pilot electro- hydraulic autopilot directly on the steering post under the aft cabin bed. Its hydraulic cylinder is attached to the rudder post bellcrank with a small ball joint, a miniature trailer hitch ball. Even if the entire steering cable system fails (it looks like a heavy outboard flexible system with dual enclosed flexcables), we can still steer the boat from the helm or from the remote control box, providing there is DC power to run it. DC power is two banks of L-16H 6V monsters. Power R' Us. The only problem we've had with it is the chinzy way B&G attaches the linear feedback sensor to the hydraulic cylinder, which comes loose eventually and must be retightened and calibrated if you're not careful. They buy this sensor from another manufacturer and don't seem to know how to attach it to their cylinder, reliably. As to operation, I have no trouble sleeping right on top of the running hydraulic pump system, which only runs when the cylinder needs moving. You can't hear it out of the aft cabin in the rest of the boat. From the center cockpit, it's as if a ghost were at the helm...(c; There are 3 modes....computer/chart plotter...or...its own compass sensor...or...B&G Network Wind instrument on top of the mainmast, which steers it on the wind like an extraordinary windvane would. All this is selected from the Pilot's panel display, same size as the other B&G Network sailing instruments in the helm's panel. It accepts NMEA0183 data very well from our computer under The Cap'n nav software, either the RAymarine RL70CRC radar/chart plotter, or the old Garmin 185 GPS/Chartplotter/Sonar or from the Yeoman paper chart plotter's waypoints under our chart table cover. As with any autopilot, when the going gets rough, it's as useless as any of them when it gets lost.....and you're left to steer by hand lock to lock trying against hell to hold her on a course....with the wind sensor spinning around crazy, the compass sensor being churned by being thrown about and all the rudder in the world unable to steer the damned boat.... You cave the best argument for the windvane. The autopilots how expensive one you ever buy, is for the fair weather. When the going gets rough, the windvane will carry you trhough. - Lauri Tarkkonen I was looking at the Monitor windvane at a dock but I couldn't see the whole thing. Does it have pully's to an inboard quadrant? Or does it just move the little paddle aft of the rudder? Thanks and keep up the good work. Monitor is a servo-pendulum type (like Windpilot, Aries and some others) windvane. The working principle is as follows: The wind tilts the vane on one side or the other when the boat is not it the right direction of the wind, the movement of the vane is only twisting the "padle" in the water and when it is tvisted the boats movement throught the water will push it to one side or anothe depending on the direction of the tilt of the wane. The padle pulls the rope that pulls the tiller (or if you have a steering wheel the rope is on a drum on the wheel and it rotates) and it is then turning the boats rudder. So the steerin is not done by the padle, it is only controlling the rudder. Next time yuo are out boatin, take a padle or an oar and pull it through the water with the side forward. It will go straight with very little movement, if you twist it a bit you will find a very strong force pulling it to the side. Imagine this fors applied to the rudder of the boat. Notice that the power needed to twist the oar or paddle is very minimal. But the power created by the paddle/oar is quite a big. - Lauri Tarkkonen |
I have an old Swan 38 and just returned from a yearlong cruise from
the Northwest to Mexico, and returned home via Hawaii. When outfitting for the trip cost was very much a concern and we decided to put a Monitor wind vane on as our only autopilot. To have something for motoring I bought the cheapest Simrad tiller pilot that Pyacht.com had. I mounted it between the led counter weight on the Monitor and the aft rail. There was a lot of concern from other boaters before we left that the old IOR racer would not handle well with the narrow stern in following seas. After a year of living with it I am positive that any one who questions the effectiveness of a well installed and maintained windvane has never used one. The beauty of it was that the harder the wind blew, the better it worked. We never had any real bad weather. The worst seas were about 15-20 feet in 30kt off cape Mendocino, and it handled them better then we could hand steering. When traversing from the Big Island of Hawaii to Maui we saw 40kt and, as long as he sails were balanced, the windvane worked great. The tiller pilot worked well when motoring. In very light wind with a good swell we would also use the tiller pilot when sailing. The power use was minimal and never noticeably increased our need to charge. When rounding the Pacific high the winds and seas became very light. But the monitor with the vane worked well down wind with 7kts apparent and 4kt boat speed. We even flew an asymmetrical for close to 48 hours straight. The down side was that the Monitor was slow to react to change of course with either the vane or the tiller pilot. So when entering a harbor or when going up the Columbia to Portland, we would hand steer. On other boats I have piloted with hydraulic pilots we would use them closer in then the wind vane. The only other big drawback which you don't hear much about it the potential damage they can do to an inflatable dingy. In Mexico they were sometimes referred to as dingy slicers. We found that having a longer painter solved the potential hazard. The only people I saw having problems with them were boats that also had large hydraulic autopilots. It seemed that since they had a good fall back, they never went through the learning process to figure out how to make the windvanes work. It took me a whole day. The process was like learning to trim a new type of sail. If I were limited to sailing on the Columbia or in Puget sound, I would be happy with a wheel pilot. But for any distance, the Monitor was a great choice. John SV Pangea |
I want to thank all of you who responded. Despite the minor flame between
Lauri and Brian, I found the replies most interesting and informative. They seem to show a clear preference for autopilots for short term, fair weather applications and sail changes, and the wind vane for serious blue water sailing. Bob Swarts "Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message ... Anyone care to discuss the relative reliability of autopilots(electric/electronic) vs wind vanes for sail boats? Are wind vanes still widely used? BS |
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