Larry W4CSC wrote:
"Vito" wrote in
:

I've done a lot of hiring for well-paying jobs. Employers want
credentials. Your home-schooled kid may be better educated than the
product of PS101 but do you have a paper that says so, or that (s)he
has any education at all. And if I'm to compare several candidates I
want to see scores on standardized tests.




And, armed with the information this applicant lived the first 15 years of
his life on a fiberglass island like a hermit....would you think he'd fit
into a busy office, factory, "department" in a large, heavily-populated
business? I wouldn't.

Home schooling's isolationists are bad enough. Pile that on top of living
with those independent-minded hermits at the dock and I think you're doing
serious damage to the poor kid. Take him on a cruise, by all means! But
make him live years on a boat....NOT.

It's almost unspeakably sad, if not revolting, that some of the above
posters have actually been, or are, PARENTS. But they would never
understand WHY.

"prodigal1" wrote
Vito wrote:
snip

And if I'm to compare several candidates I want to see scores on
standardized tests.

The results of standardized testing provide only at best a simplistic ....

But they are the best we have. Suppose I have 5 or 6 ap's for one trainee
job. I don't have time to do an in-depth background check then interview
each of them. I'm going to pick 1 or 2 that look the best based on their
job ap and resume. If 1 or 2 have diplomas with high grades I'll interview
them and if that goes well hire one of them. The rest won't even get
interviewed. That's life.

Larry,

"just living on that deserted desert island of fiberglass."

Wow! Based on what you wrote below are you sure that you ever want to go
cruising? Seems to me that kids on a real cruising boat have a lot of
opportunities to meet and socialize with kids. What they don't have is
the opportunity to fall in with the wrong crowd and end up stealing cars
or selling drugs to their school chums.

I'll grant you that a "normal" teenager who has been raised on cable TV,
no homework, and unlimited internet/cell phone will be pretty bored while
the boat is getting moved.

BTW, while I was growing up I didn't WANT to live on a farm and have to do
farm chores while my friends were watching TV. I didn't WANT to run a tractor
and harvester through the summer while my friends were lounging around down
at the swimming pool. Looking back now though, I see that I'm better off
for it, and I'm glad that my dad was wiser than I was.

Usually, what kids WANT isn't all that good for them. I'll bet that most
people who ask will find out that their kids don't WANT to go to school. I
know I didn't ;-)

And BTW, I've never noticed kids being shy about telling Daddy when they're
unhappy either.

YMMV,

Don W.

Larry W4CSC wrote:

There's the point. Maybe the child doesn't WANT to live on the boat
without his friends, particularly his girlfriend, without his bike, without
a real neighborhood full of other kids to socialize with.
But...alas....DADDY DOES and he's forced to go. He may not tell Daddy he
doesn't want to live on that cramped little isolated island in the middle
of nowhere because he'll cause a fight, hurt daddy's feelings, etc.....but
he's lost interest in the novelty...no TV...no internet...no friends...no
school activities...just living on that deserted desert island of
fiberglass.

{off topic mode on}

See, now this is what really bothers me about the current political
chasm in the world. All sides seem to be ignorant of history, and make
extreme hyperbolic statements to support their opinions.

The REAL Reich imprisoned, tortured, and murdered somewhat more than
10 MILLION people over a period of about four years. That is a documented
fact of history.

I don't particularly like where the US and the world are headed right now
either, but equating the USA with the German Reich is purely hyperbole.
Perhaps you prefer the methods of the "Islamic" extremists which include
car bombing civilians, and sawing the heads off of live prisoners??

prodigal1 wrote:

???coming reich???
baby, you're living it and you don't even know it.

{off topic mode off}

Cruising is how I hope to travel while avoiding removing my shoes for the
security line. {OTMBOn} Which, BTW, I wouldn't have to do if "muslim"
Richard Reid hadn't tried to murder an entire airplane load of civilians
with the bomb hidden in his shoes. Sheesh!! {OTMBOff}

My idea of cruising is to travel to the peaceful places in the world where
they are not getting caught up in the current troubles between the western
and islamic worlds.


Don W.

Well, Larry definitely has an idee fixe about homeschooling and I'm not
gonna continue arguing. I will say that if that's how you perceive the
parent/child relationship, you have my sympathy.

As for the isolation and success stuff, even though nobody supplied me
with their definition (Except a couple of folks seemed to imply that
"success" was getting a job as a mushroom in a cube farm. Not my idea
of success but de gustibus non disputandum, eh?), I seem to remember a
homeschooler/sailor named something like Robin Lee Graham (Had a little
boat named "Dove." Ring a bell for anyone?), who sailed completely
alone (not even domineering parents for socialization, oh my!) but
still somehow managed to make friends in various places around the
world and even met a girl and got married! Mais jamais de ma vie!

The things that can happen on a "deserted desert island of fiberglass."
Amazing, huh?

Vito wrote:

"Stephen Trapani" wrote

I did answer him, but maybe you'll like this better:

http://www.home4schoolgear.com/famoushomeschooler.html

http://users.safeaccess.com/olsen/famous.html


All old & out of date - from times when everybody was home schooled.

Pardon my saying, but you seem to have a bias against homeschooling. Why
else would you snip out the third link I provided, which had more
modern examples? Why else would you ignore the plethora of twentieth
century ("the age of schooling") examples in the two links above?

Even on these very incomplete lists you can see there have been plenty
of successful homeschoolers, no matter how you measure "success."

I'm an employer also. What matters most to me is past work experience

.....

homeschoolers would do well on such tests. Why wouldn't they?


Homeschoolers may do well IF they take the tests in a proctored environment.
Do they?

Definitely. I have personal experience with a child who was entering
fourth grade after being homeschooled entirely previous to that. In
standard tests, for placement, he scored at or above his age group in
every category. He got straight 'A's the whole year in school. I've
heard numerous similar stories.

I believe most colleges want to see High School transcripts before admitting
students to degree programs. Is this not true? If so, where do
homeschoolers get them. Will colleges believe parents?

Many many colleges and universities accept homeschoolers aplenty. Here's
a partial list. Note Harvad, Yale and the like are on the list:

http://learninfreedom.org/colleges_4_hmsc.html


Most job req's I see begin with "A degree in XXX from an accredited
institution plus ..." Even sub-professional jobs want a high school diploma
or GED. I guess homeschoolers can begin with a GED but the assumption tends
to be that the candidate had a problem with school.

Some jobs do require college degrees. As you can see above,
homeschoolers who want such degrees shouldn't have any trouble getting
into good universities. And don't forget, for the majority of good jobs,
a college degree is superfluous.


Homeschoolers may be better educated but if I have five ap's for one job
(typical) I'll begin by interviewing the one who looks best- and, other
things being equal, that won't be the guy with a GED. If the 1st or 2nd
applicant seems good I'll hire him/her and send the rest dear john letters.
Tain't fair but .... That's why I believe you may be hurting your kids
futures by not getting them the credentials they'll need. If you can home
school AND get the credentials by all means do so.

It makes sense if you're excluding drop outs, but if you are excluding
those who are homeschooled, surely you are making a big mistake.


Stephen

Vito wrote:
I don't have time to do an in-depth background check then interview
each of them....

jeezus Vito, if _you_ don't have the time to do your due diligence...who
will? and if you don't...

Don W wrote:
snipola

Don,
You want to take me to task for responding to whatsisname's OT political
comments?
puhllleeeeze
spare me defensiveness
do go cruising on that boat of yours
I think you'll find that the further you get away from the noise, the
clearer your perspective will be on current events

Stephen Trapani wrote in
:

Pardon my saying, but you seem to have a bias against homeschooling. Why
else would you snip out the third link I provided, which had more
modern examples? Why else would you ignore the plethora of twentieth
century ("the age of schooling") examples in the two links above?


I'd be his "bias" is the bias of EVERY person sitting in the HR chair
hiring people to work for every corporation in the country. Be it true or
not, homeschooling is associated with religious fanaticism, isolationists
and those religious hermits down the street that never mow their lawn....

If the kid were Albert Einstein, homeschooled, we'd probably have had to
wait for relativity a while longer. Read about the life and troubles of
one of the real geniuses of the electric age, Nikola Tesla. Tesla never
had the credentials the HR department was looking for. He was just a
genius immigrant boy from Eastern Europe competing against academia's
golden haired boy, Thomas Edison. If it weren't for George Westinghouse
seeing that genius and capitalizing on it, your house would run on
batteries from Edison Electric (GE).... Tesla didn't attend the "right
schools" in the "right places" with the "right people"....

--
Larry

You know you've had a rough night when you wake up and you're outlined in
chalk.

Don W wrote in
m:

The REAL Reich imprisoned, tortured, and murdered somewhat more than
10 MILLION people over a period of about four years. That is a
documented fact of history.


Oh, boy....this'll make the thread EXPLODE!
http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/
http://www.ihr.org/books/leuchter/leuchter.toc.html

There....that'll rile 'em....(c;

--
Larry

You know you've had a rough night when you wake up and you're outlined in
chalk.

Prodigal,

{otmon}
No, I don't care about whatever you were responding to. I was just
making the point that both sides of this political gulf have already
forgotten the hard learned lessons of less than sixty years ago. So,
I guess that we will all have to re-learn those lessons the hard way.

That we includes the western world, and it includes the islamic world.

And the "sheesh" was aimed at Richard Reid, and the people who inspired
him, not at you.

What I responded to in your post was the comment comparing the current USA
to the German REICH of 1936-45, and saying that we were already living in
it. We may yet get there (and I really really hope that we don't), but if
we were already there you would have been too scared to make a comment like
that in a public forum--because there _would_ have been a knock at your door in
the night, and the rest of us would never have known what happened to you.
I gather that you are not at all worried about that possibility?? Well then
we must not be there yet.

Defensive?? puhllleeeeze spare me. I'm just a student of history who has
a grasp on the reality of what happened during our grandparents generation.
It was a lot of really ugly things that all of us should have the sense not
to do again.

{otmoff}

Instead, we should go cruising, and make friends with people all over the
world. We should smile, and laugh, and dance, and tell jokes. Sometimes
we should laugh at other peoples lame jokes just because it makes them feel
good. We should eat good food that we prepared ourselves, and marvel at the
sunsets, and the deep azure blue ocean. And on that perfect day when the sun
smiles and the winds are fair, we should remember to feel a little sadness for
those who take life too seriously and thus never really get to live it.

Life's blessings and fair winds to you,

Don W.

prodigal1 wrote:

Don,
You want to take me to task for responding to whatsisname's OT political
comments?
puhllleeeeze
spare me defensiveness
do go cruising on that boat of yours
I think you'll find that the further you get away from the noise, the
clearer your perspective will be on current events

wrote
It's almost unspeakably sad, if not revolting, that some of the above
posters have actually been, or are, PARENTS. But they would never
undersant WHY.

Try grandparents. I think it revolting that you are so selfish as to hamper
your kids' futures so you can avoid your obligations to them and go play.
And we do understand - we understand that you think your kids are your pets.
They are not.

I didn't make the rules but without credentials your kids will be
unemployable. Do you care?

"prodigal1" wrote in message
...
Vito wrote:
I don't have time to do an in-depth background check then interview
each of them....

jeezus Vito, if _you_ don't have the time to do your due diligence...who
will? and if you don't...

I don't owe anybody 'due dilligence'. I just need to hire somebody to do a
job and if (s)he can I'm happy and my boss is happy. I have my own work to
do. I have neither time nor any obligation to tease an applicants
qualifications out of him. It is up to the applicant to present them and
make them as creditable as possible. It is a parent's duty to get their
kids the credentials they'll need to succeed as adults. You wanna go play
instead you shouldn't have had kids.

"Frank" wrote
.....I seem to remember a
homeschooler/sailor named something like Robin Lee Graham (Had a little
boat named "Dove." Ring a bell for anyone?), who sailed completely
alone (not even domineering parents for socialization, oh my!) but
still somehow managed to make friends in various places around the
world and even met a girl and got married! Mais jamais de ma vie!

Where did he get the boat? How did he earn a living - especially in his
doteage?

"Stephen Trapani" wrote
Pardon my saying, but you seem to have a bias against homeschooling. ...

No, I do not. I have a bias against parents failing to get their kids the
*credentials* they will need to succeed in a lifestyle of their own
choosing, not necessarily that of their parents. Some parents homeschool in
order to give their kids a better education than they can find in public
schools. That's great. OTOH, some "homeschool" because they are too lazy
and/or selfish to send their kids to school. Some of these would rather go
sailing. Either way, there will come times when the kids will need to
present credentials - diplomas, degrees, grade transcripts, et cetera - in
order to get into a college and/or find a job. My point is that it is a
parent's obligation to make sure his/her children have those credentials.

"WaIIy" wrote
Perhaps you should visit a Cleveland school and see how well things are
going with a 30% graduation rate.

That has nothing to do with my, or Larry's point. Say I'm looking at five
resumes for a trainee position. Four graduated from a Cleveland HS with
above average GPAs. One spent the last 15 years on a boat cruising the
islands with his parents who 'home schooled' him, but he has nothing to
prove that. I don't know if his parents were conscientious or religious
kooks. Now,am I going to call any of them in to take hours of tests to prove
they learned enough to do the job at hand, or am I going to believe the GPAs
and transcripts and round file the fifth kid? It'd be different if the home
schooled kid had the equivalent of the others' credentials but if he doesn't
he's SOL.

Fair? The world isn't fair.

Vito,

You don't really want answers; you just wanna confirm your position
that homeschoolers are unworthy of being hired by you. Fine. If you're
doing the hiring, you can set the standards. And feel free to continue
to think that homeschoolers are engaging in selfish behavior, compared
to those who farm their kids out to the school system all day every
day. You wanna have kids, you should be responsible for them and make
some effort on their behalf. You wanna pursue your lame career instead,
you shouldn't have had 'em. (A grandparent and still working? Not very
"successful," are you?)

Just FYI, Graham returned to the US and was accepted to Stanford. This
is, of course, after he wrote his book and worked on several
photographic assignments for National Geographic. Guess National
Geographic isn't as picky as you are in their hiring practices.

He didn't like life at Stanford; and he and his wife moved to Montana.
I have no idea what he's doing nowadays. OTOH, the Colfax family sent
their kids to Harvard and Yale from their homeschooling goat farm in
Northern Callifornia. (_Homeschooling for Excellence_ by David and Miki
Colfax.)

But you're gonna choose to look at any example given about "successful"
homeschooling as a case of abusus non tollit usum. I have other things
to do than sit here and beat this dead horse; so I'm gonna go do 'em.

Happy sailing!

Frank

"Frank" wrote
You .... just wanna confirm your position
that homeschoolers are unworthy of being hired by you.

That is untrue. I have nothing against home schooling provided the
schooling is adequately documented, thus providing the kids with the
credentials needed to get into colleges and to find employment. If a kid
were homeschooled, accepted at an accredited university and obtained a
degree I would give him/her the same consideration as anyone else. What I
am trying to do is to warn parents that these credentials will be needed so
they can aquire them as they go along. If your kid shows up to compete for a
job and has to check the "no" box under "HS Diploma?" on the application
he's going to be at a serious disadvantage no matter how well his mama
schooled him. If you care about your kids that won't happen but you'll have
to do the right things at the right times.

Vito wrote:

I don't owe anybody 'due dilligence'.

Vito, you owe yourself/your employer _your_ due diligence. Since you
don't seem to know:
a) what that means or
b) what consequences await those who don't take care of their own business,
there's not much more we have to communicate about

WaIIy wrote in
:

Larry, were you raped in homeschool or something?



No, actually I'm a former South Carolina Technical Education Electronics
Department Head who had to fight long and hard to get employers and Human
Resources management like "WaIIy" to give my kids' resumes that second
look, especially when I first started the electronics program at our little
TEC school. I worked very hard to convince them of the seriousness of my
department as there is really little certification for such schools.

Once the department had an employer references base to point to and get
recommendations from for the newest survivors of my electronics boot camp,
I had little trouble placing them all in quite nice technician positions,
though maybe not in the local area to the dismay of my school president.
The phone companies got wind that I wasn't trying to tell them they were
all going to be engineers and taught a great basic electronics school they
could use as a base to build on in their own telephone schools.

The $outhern Bell HR representative in Columbia used to come to interview
my class each year. I asked him why he drove all that way when a much
larger TEC was just down the street from his office. "Oh, I need
TECHNICIANS!", he exclaimed. "At Midlands TEC, they tell them they are all
going to be junior engineers and they're not interested in jobs behind
wiring frames and switching racks. Your guys can't wait to get their hands
dirty!", he continued. My reputation for turning out a quality product was
great, but my salary was $14,200/year for working 12 months, not 9, so I
had to find a real job that didn't pay like a hobby. TEC always assumed
you had a military retirement check in your box each month and were looking
for a hobby. My first year teaching in 1971, I was paid the princely sum
of $7,200.

I'd loved to teach. I took a black kid off a farm tractor plowing tobacco.
He was the first in his family to graduate from high school. Today, he is
head of the long line telephone switching center that feeds busy Myrtle
Beach, SC, with long distance calls. Not bad for a kid from Tobacco Row,
eh? His father insisted I sit with the family at his graduation....(c;
Noone ever reproduced that feeling I got when they all had good jobs
outside my doors....instead of working at some mill as an indentured
servant with no future. We called him "Scooter" in class. His secretary
wasn't amused when I asked, "Is Scooter in, today?", outside his
office...(c; His golf club serves an excellent lunch at their clubhouse.

--
Larry

You know you've had a rough night when you wake up and you're outlined in
chalk.

Don W wrote in
:

the islamic world.

I've worked in Iran, for the Iranian Air Force under the Shahanshah. I've
fixed ships in Bahrain from Charleston Naval Shipyard, our Great White
Fleet at Bahrain's port. I left Iran about 28 days before the Shah did in
'79. I'd go back next week if they had a friendly government, again.

If you tire of the constant onslaught of Tel Aviv TV telling Americans they
are all just terrorists and want to kill us all, take a little trip to
Mahmood's Blog for fun in Bahrain to see what normal Arab people are really
like. Mahmood's Blog is in English. He's a fluent English Arab, probably
trained at the British School in Al Manama or in England. He has great
videos of all kinds of silly things Bahrainis take quite seriously. The
video yesterday was about a guy who saves an endangered Bahraini frog that
lives on the desert island the development threatens.

Note how normal Arab people are kinda laid back, not what CNN wants you to
think at all!....hee hee.

http://www.mahmood.tv/

Warning! His colorful language ISN'T what you hear coming from a
mosque!...(c; He's getting much better at video productions, of late.
There's great pointers to other Arab English language blogs from his site,
too. Bahraini Girl is a good read. Mahmood's coverage of the Formula 1
racing in Bahrain has some great pictures of beautiful expat and Bahraini
women...without the covering! Bahrainis tolerate a lot of outside ideas.
They've had 7000 years of foreign traders to corrupt them...

--
Larry

You know you've had a rough night when you wake up and you're outlined in
chalk.

If all you look at is the GPA and a transcript from any highschool you will
probably hire the wrong person. Home/yacht schooled kids still have to take
proctored standardized tests like the ITBS and SAT and most score
considerably higher than traditional school students. They also tend to
present themselves with a good deal more maturity.

That does not necessarily hold true for the farm raised religious
conservative but a kid who spent his highschool years cruising the world
with a recognized home schooling program is usually head and shoulders above
the average public highschool graduate.

This is only a single example but my brother in law took his kids cruising
from the 8th to 10th grades and used the University of Nebraska service.
When they came ashore and enrolled in a top notch private school in
Savannah the kids were placed a grade level higher and still graduated at
the top of their classes. And this was before internet access was available
almost everywhere.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Vito" wrote in message
...

That has nothing to do with my, or Larry's point. Say I'm looking at five
resumes for a trainee position. Four graduated from a Cleveland HS with
above average GPAs. One spent the last 15 years on a boat cruising the
islands with his parents who 'home schooled' him, but he has nothing to
prove that. I don't know if his parents were conscientious or religious
kooks. Now,am I going to call any of them in to take hours of tests to
prove
they learned enough to do the job at hand, or am I going to believe the
GPAs
and transcripts and round file the fifth kid? It'd be different if the
home
schooled kid had the equivalent of the others' credentials but if he
doesn't
he's SOL.

Fair? The world isn't fair.

On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 08:22:44 -0400, "Glenn Ashmore"
wrote:

If all you look at is the GPA and a transcript from any highschool you will
probably hire the wrong person. Home/yacht schooled kids still have to take
proctored standardized tests like the ITBS and SAT and most score
considerably higher than traditional school students. They also tend to
present themselves with a good deal more maturity.

That does not necessarily hold true for the farm raised religious
conservative but a kid who spent his highschool years cruising the world
with a recognized home schooling program is usually head and shoulders above
the average public highschool graduate.

This is only a single example but my brother in law took his kids cruising
from the 8th to 10th grades and used the University of Nebraska service.
When they came ashore and enrolled in a top notch private school in
Savannah the kids were placed a grade level higher and still graduated at
the top of their classes. And this was before internet access was available
almost everywhere.


It's a hard lesson for folks to swallow: that big high schools,
despite the wider choice of options - are an adverse educational
influence.
Mid-size schools can also suffer from a dearth of choice.

But tutor education which is student centered - which was the choice
of the very rich for hundreds of years - can be unequaled - given a
sutable quality of tutor.
Home-schooling can easily aspire to this level of tutelage, though if
the educational sub-strate is too far from the mainstream, perhaps
inerrant bible-centered, or extreme Paganism, then the advantage is
turned to deficit.

I have spoken to a few home-schooled children, fearing for their
social skills, and have always been pleasantly surprized by their
composure, their friendliness and their know-how.

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

"prodigal1" wrote
Vito wrote:
I don't owe anybody 'due dilligence'.

Vito, you owe yourself/your employer _your_ due diligence.

Yes - to the extent that I hire qualified, capable employees. I have been
very successful at doing so. But NO, I do not owe every applicant an
interview or an in-depth test to determine his/her qualifications. Rather,
the burden in on the applicant to show me enough potential to be worth
interviewing.

there's not much more we have to communicate about

True.

"WaIIy" wrote
I don't know about Larry, but you certainly have another agenda here.

Yes, I do. There is a flock of spoiled brats out there who now producing
kids of their own. They wanted a baby for a pet but now it is school age
and interferes with their "lifestyle". So, they decide to "homeschool"
which to them means handing the kid a book to read on watch. But one day the
kid wants to fly the nest. What can it do. Well, it can sail, but that
doesn't pay well. Or it can become a prostitute, but they usually don't live
well or long. Or a yard bird or ...??.

Now let's say you don't fit that category - that you take parenting
seriously, want your kids to have a better education than they can get in
public or private schools and are qualified to provide it. The latter is
dubious, I don't know many couples who are qualified to teach mathematics
and sciences and art and music and athletics all at once. But say you are.
Even then it is important that you *get your kids credentials* to prove that
they have acquired certain knowledge that they may get a job or into
college!

My "agenda" is to make parents understand that obligation.

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote
...... Home/yacht schooled kids still have to take
proctored standardized tests like the ITBS and SAT and most score
considerably higher than traditional school students.

That does not necessarily hold true for the farm raised religious
conservative but a kid who spent his highschool years cruising the world
with a recognized home schooling program is usually head and shoulders
above
the average public highschool graduate.

This proves it possible to get credentials for home schooled kids. The
important thing is that their parents know this from the git go and make
sure the kids get them. But I wonder how many do.

You guys don't seem to be getting the message. Perhaps it's one you
don't want to hear, but if you have kids and plan on home-schooling
them, *and* want your kids to have at least as good a shot as their
conventionally schooled peers, take it on board. The kids need the bits
of paper showing they've had an education to a certain standard. Home
schooling them is fine, as long as they can take tests somewhere
reputable.

I just went through applications for a job in my group. I culled all
those who didn't meet the educational quals before going any further
and making a shortlist to interview, then I check work experience etc.
One I culled might well be a lot better than the person I picked.
Life's like that and as long as the one I get is capable, I can live
with the outcome. Vito is 100% correct, interviewers aren't gonna go to
huge lengths to pay lip service to procedural fairness. Doesn't work
anyway.

The best programmer I ever had working for me was a 40+ woman with no
quals, who demonstrated what she could do while in another role. I
insisted she get the bits of paper and got her promoted, but she'd lost
20 years in a low paying spot by then, and she was lucky. A few years
later she was heading up a project I was interested in so I went to
work for her for a while. It's possible to overcome the lack of formal
quals, but it's a lot harder than getting them.

Personally I have little time for conventional education systems. The
number of kids on Ritalin etc for diagnosed ADHD is an indictment of
the teachers, IMO. Nonetheless, no paper, no interview with my group.

My daughters went to Catholic high schools. They're a lot better than
the public schools IMO, as far as focus on learning goes.

PDW

In article , Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Vito wrote:

"Stephen Trapani" wrote

I did answer him, but maybe you'll like this better:

http://www.home4schoolgear.com/famoushomeschooler.html

http://users.safeaccess.com/olsen/famous.html


All old & out of date - from times when everybody was home schooled.

Pardon my saying, but you seem to have a bias against homeschooling. Why
else would you snip out the third link I provided, which had more
modern examples? Why else would you ignore the plethora of twentieth
century ("the age of schooling") examples in the two links above?

Even on these very incomplete lists you can see there have been plenty
of successful homeschoolers, no matter how you measure "success."

I'm an employer also. What matters most to me is past work experience

.....

homeschoolers would do well on such tests. Why wouldn't they?


Homeschoolers may do well IF they take the tests in a proctored environment.
Do they?

Definitely. I have personal experience with a child who was entering
fourth grade after being homeschooled entirely previous to that. In
standard tests, for placement, he scored at or above his age group in
every category. He got straight 'A's the whole year in school. I've
heard numerous similar stories.

I believe most colleges want to see High School transcripts before admitting
students to degree programs. Is this not true? If so, where do
homeschoolers get them. Will colleges believe parents?

Many many colleges and universities accept homeschoolers aplenty. Here's
a partial list. Note Harvad, Yale and the like are on the list:

http://learninfreedom.org/colleges_4_hmsc.html


Most job req's I see begin with "A degree in XXX from an accredited
institution plus ..." Even sub-professional jobs want a high school diploma
or GED. I guess homeschoolers can begin with a GED but the assumption tends
to be that the candidate had a problem with school.

Some jobs do require college degrees. As you can see above,
homeschoolers who want such degrees shouldn't have any trouble getting
into good universities. And don't forget, for the majority of good jobs,
a college degree is superfluous.


Homeschoolers may be better educated but if I have five ap's for one job
(typical) I'll begin by interviewing the one who looks best- and, other
things being equal, that won't be the guy with a GED. If the 1st or 2nd
applicant seems good I'll hire him/her and send the rest dear john letters.
Tain't fair but .... That's why I believe you may be hurting your kids
futures by not getting them the credentials they'll need. If you can home
school AND get the credentials by all means do so.

It makes sense if you're excluding drop outs, but if you are excluding
those who are homeschooled, surely you are making a big mistake.


Stephen

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 23:18:56 -0400, prodigal1 wrote:

wrote:

Your inference is amiss, I am a happy and contented person. I simply
do not suffer fools who blame others for their own behavior easily, and
I feel such are a detriment to the sailing world and ultimately to
those of us who sail in prudence and peace.

then I stand corrected

Amazing.......................
And, in the meantime, the people on the yacht in Vevezuela whose misfortune to
be attacked and with no homeschoolers or other children aboard started this
thread, have supposedly not heard any more from the police.

Good discussion though.

FWIW,
Our two children (now 29 and 30) who completed their high school years on the NZ
government correspondence system seem to be doing OK. Our daughter has a good
job in IT, has just bought her second house in Sydney Aus and has just gotten
engaged - unfortunately or otherwise toan Englishman (could have been worse -
could have been from the US). The reason why we sent our 13 year old back to
school was for socialisation reasons, not academic after 1 week, the school put
him up a grade - not at our behest either. You can homeschool your kids - we
took him off correspondence as we considered it too unchallenging and rather
boring/tedious.

Also FWIW - I once saw a gathering of homeschoolers on Boston Common. I was
interested to note that many said that they homeschooled their children for
religious reasons whereas in New Zealand and Australia it is generally because
we believe we can better educate our kids.
Peter

Peter Hendra wrote in
:

Also FWIW - I once saw a gathering of homeschoolers on Boston Common.
I was interested to note that many said that they homeschooled their
children for religious reasons whereas in New Zealand and Australia it
is generally because we believe we can better educate our kids.
Peter



Not long ago the local Weather Bureaucrats had the NOAA Hurricane Hunter
aircraft come to Charleston for show and tell. A bunch of us hams went out
and stood in the pouring rain all day to help with crowd control and
communications because they bussed school kids in from all over eastern SC
and Savannah schools to take the tours. About 800 kids showed up.

In the pouring down rain, it WAS noteworthy that less than 5% of the kids
from the awful SC public schools had any raingear at all, while 90% of the
homeschooler group that came in later were all dressed out in their
slickers, boots, useless umbrellas in the 30 knot winds blowing the rain
and umbrellas all over. In a practical sense, the homeschoolers were much
better prepared....and much more interested in the meteorologist's
presentation (given over my stepvan's DJ sound system because they didn't
have one).

Homeschoolers - 90
Public Schoolers - 5

(c;

PS - The navigator and I were talking about his comm problems inside the
storm, so I got a little more detailed tour than the kids did...(c;
Yes, they DO have HF SSB on the plane and yes, I did make 4 ham contacts on
20 meters from a hurricane hunter aircraft...(c;

DE W4CSC/Aeronautical Mobile

Plane needs more antenna.....(sigh)


--
Larry

You know you've had a rough night when you wake up and you're outlined in
chalk.

Peter Hendra wrote:

Also FWIW - I once saw a gathering of homeschoolers on Boston Common. I was
interested to note that many said that they homeschooled their children for
religious reasons whereas in New Zealand and Australia it is generally because
we believe we can better educate our kids.

Some homeschool to protect their children from being dehumanbized by
the behaviorism which drives the globalist workforce training system
wrongly called "education."

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 04:02:14 GMT, WaIIy wrote:

Peter Hendra wrote in
m:

Also FWIW - I once saw a gathering of homeschoolers on Boston Common.
I was interested to note that many said that they homeschooled their
children for religious reasons whereas in New Zealand and Australia it
is generally because we believe we can better educate our kids.
Peter

I'm glad you're not a judge drawing conclusions on such lame "evidence".


Pray forgive me my dear sir.

I fail to see where I drew any conclusions from "such lame "evidence"". There
was no conclusion to be drawn nor was any suggested. If your English
comprehension is such that you have trouble with basic English useage, then I
would point out that I merely made an observation and drew no conclusion
whatsoever. With a science background and well familiar with random sampling of
populations and the maths involved I would have sampled perhaps less than 0.05
percent and thus could not. Nor did I conduct a survey with properly structured
questions. I may however have hypothesised - but neglected to do even that.
Also, I have presented no "evidence" at all as there was none excepting
statements of a few people I talked to. They were the ones who told me that most
of the several hundred people present were Christians and homeschooling for
religious reasons.

As I said, I merely made an observation.

Forgive me all for this forthcoming sin but I suppose that you have similar
problems to shrub and his friends - Blair and Deputy Sherrif Howard in their
concept of what constitutes "evidence" - eg. "weapons of mass destruction"

Really, is there any need to make negative comments such as this?

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:20:18 GMT, WaIIy wrote:

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:02:46 +1000, Peter Hendra
wrote:

Forgive me all for this forthcoming sin but I suppose that you have similar
problems to shrub and his friends - Blair and Deputy Sherrif Howard in their
concept of what constitutes "evidence" - eg. "weapons of mass destruction"

Really, is there any need to make negative comments such as this?

You asked your own question and revealed your agenda all a few
sentences.

Actually, I have no agenda. I merely object to the bull**** that we are fed by
the media from the politicians.

When Australia invaded east Timor in a purely humanitarian gesture to "save the
poor East Timorese", we in Australia had to pay an extra "war tax". What most
people did not realise at the time was that plans had already been drawn up for
the building of a refinery at Darwin to cater for the expected oil from east
Timor of which nothing appeared in the media. One month after the troops
arrived, an agreement was signed by the new government. For years Australia had
kept its hands off the former Portugese colony. When the Indonesians invaded,
when 5 Australian journalists were killed by the military, when thousands of
people were slaughtered etc, etc. not a word of protest was heard. as soon as
there was evidence of oil, they sent in the troops. Why tax us and not the oil
companies.

Perhaps you should bear in mind that your president is defacto, also ours yet we
cannot vote in the American presidential elections. What he and his
administration does influences us in the rest of the world to a very large
degree - eg Middle East foreign policy, carbon emissions etc . I cannot
understand why, when anyone makes any comment that may be remotely misconstrued
as a criticism of US foreign policy, paranoia such as yours leaps to the fore. I
have heard Rumsfield stating on CNN that yes, the US gave Sadam the Weapons of
mass destruction and have read in US magazines that they also gave them the
chemiocal weapons to fight Iran (Sadam was once considered a good US ally), yet
we are still; fed bull****. I have met few anywhere, even in the Middle east who
wished him to stay in power. Why not admit to the lies and admit that it was all
for oil? Remember, Australia also invaded alongside the US and Britain. I am an
Australian as well as a New Zealand citizen and feel that I am permitted to
criticise my own government.

For the record, I am not anti-American, quite the contrary. I am looking forward
to sailing along your eastern coastline next year. Perhaps you should wear a hat
when out in the sun so as not to redden your neck.

In article ,
HarryKrause wrote:

There's nothing wrong with trade school training, but some seek higher
education in order to expand their minds and learn how to think at
higher levels.


While I may not actually disagree with you --I've lost track of this
thread-- I had to respond to this.

Higher education rarely leads to learning how to think at higher levels.
At best, it gives a little more information for the student to apply,
and possibly an alternate viewpoint in its application. Since few profs
can think at higher levels, they are themselves hobbled. (if they could
do it, they'd get paid far more doing it.)

And I'm not slamming you in particular. I just happen to be a computer
jock from way back who thinks SO differently that few of my co-workers
can follow my logic on a solution without a few hours' explanation.
(Those that can are truly scary individuals ;-)

My profs (as I try to get the pigskin) are hopeless, since they hardly
understand what they're presenting, much less the basic concepts or the
philosophy.

In my experience, there are a few educators out there that, along with
the material, teach those who are capable and ready how to think. I ran
into two: 5th and 11th grade. No one even close since.

Bringing it back to sailing, there are few who can teach others how to
sail. Most can merely point to the various elements of sailing and
sketch out how they're supposed to work together. It's up to the student
to do the heavy lifting. The good thing is that most sailing instructors
can at least do that adequately.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

"Larry W4CSC" wrote
I disagree. If public education were the "globalist workforce training
system" you say, public education would actually be teaching these kids to
DO something. It's not. It teaches them to become liberal arts college
students, a dead-end way to nowhere.

Bwahahahaha! You're absolutely right. As one "educator" quipped " We go to
elementary school to get into High school, then high school to get into
college, a bachlor degree to get a masters, a masters to get a doctorate and
a doctorate so we can teach - a closed circuit."

Vito wrote:

"Larry W4CSC" wrote

I disagree. If public education were the "globalist workforce training
system" you say, public education would actually be teaching these kids to
DO something. It's not. It teaches them to become liberal arts college
students, a dead-end way to nowhere.


Bwahahahaha! You're absolutely right. As one "educator" quipped " We go to
elementary school to get into High school, then high school to get into
college, a bachlor degree to get a masters, a masters to get a doctorate and
a doctorate so we can teach - a closed circuit."



You left out: "Even employers are fooled into thinking we are learning
something useful by requiring us to waste all this time and hiring us
off of test scores that show how good we were at wasting it!"

--
Stephen

-------

For any proposition there is always some sufficiently narrow
interpretation of its terms, such that it turns out true, and
some sufficiently wide interpretation such that it turns out
false...concept stretching will refute *any* statement, and will
leave no true statement whatsoever.
-- Imre Lakatos

Stephen Trapani wrote in
:

You left out: "Even employers are fooled into thinking we are learning
something useful by requiring us to waste all this time and hiring us
off of test scores that show how good we were at wasting it!"


It is why the Japanese, Chinese and Koreans are all whippin' our asses. A
kid has to WORK HARD to get into a Japanese high school. It isn't handed
him on a platter, he works for it, so he appreciates what it does for him
in their culture. We, on the other hand, treat all kids the same, to our
detriment. We are NOT all the same, neither are our children. How stupid
it is to treat them so. The really smart ones are bored to tears. The
ones in the middle who are motivated work hard. The lesser of them flunk,
over and over and noone cares. We blame them for flunking. We beat them
up. However, if our liberal arts education system were run by INTELLEGENT
people, instead of those who can't put batteries in a flashlight (it's
true, I used to teach electronics and knew many who couldn't), we would try
to recognize HOW the children are different, how their wants are in
different directions, and stop trying to shove them into the liberal arts
holes in the pegboard. A kid who is dying to fix complex automobile
engines....or (on topic) a marine diesel...has no opportunity until
released from his 12-year prison sentence to acquire his skills. Very few
schools have apprenticeship programs like the young boy taken under the
wings at Orange County Choppers on American Chopper is doing. We closed up
the vocational schools teaching children real skills because we don't want
them TOO INDEPENDENT or TOO SKILLED that our corporations can't turn them
into cheap slave labor (or labour if you like).

So, the geniuses running Asian schools in these three countries simply take
over the world, quietly, unendingly....while the Americans can't find a
skilled boat mechanic, plumber, brick layer, carpenter, electrician,
outboard motor mechanic, electronic technician, etc....the skilled labor
that keeps the world pumping....



--
Larry

You know you've had a rough night when you wake up and you're outlined in
chalk.

In article , Peter Hendra
wrote:

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:20:18 GMT, WaIIy wrote:

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:02:46 +1000, Peter Hendra
wrote:

Forgive me all for this forthcoming sin but I suppose that you have similar
problems to shrub and his friends - Blair and Deputy Sherrif Howard in their
concept of what constitutes "evidence" - eg. "weapons of mass destruction"

Really, is there any need to make negative comments such as this?

You asked your own question and revealed your agenda all a few
sentences.

Actually, I have no agenda. I merely object to the bull**** that we are fed by
the media from the politicians.

When Australia invaded east Timor in a purely humanitarian gesture to "save
the
poor East Timorese", we in Australia had to pay an extra "war tax". What most
people did not realise at the time was that plans had already been drawn up
for
the building of a refinery at Darwin to cater for the expected oil from east
Timor of which nothing appeared in the media. One month after the troops
arrived, an agreement was signed by the new government. For years Australia
had
kept its hands off the former Portugese colony. When the Indonesians invaded,
when 5 Australian journalists were killed by the military, when thousands of
people were slaughtered etc, etc. not a word of protest was heard. as soon as
there was evidence of oil, they sent in the troops. Why tax us and not the oil
companies.

Just because *you* and your equally ignorant associates didn't know
that there was oil there isn't proof that nobody else knew. It's been a
well known fact for decades.

The *FACT* is, we're likely to pay East Timor FAR, FAR, FAR more and
maybe have to renegotiate the seabed boundary IN THEIR FAVOUR now
they're independent. That boundary was a done deal while Indonesia had
possession/control. Australia, as a nation, was a lot better off
WITHOUT an independent, poor, problematic and likely failed state off
our NW boundary, causing aggravation with Indonesia. Nevertheless, they
did want independence and we did support them in their desires, AGAINST
OUR OWN NATIONAL INTEREST.

God, I wish people like you would learn to read something other than
Green Left Weekly. Get a brain, not everything is about oil. In this
case, it's mainly natural gas anyway, and we have vast reserves on the
NW Shelf already.

PDW

"Stephen Trapani" wrote
You left out: "Even employers are fooled into thinking we are learning
something useful by requiring us to waste all this time and hiring us
off of test scores that show how good we were at wasting it!"

Not necessarily. If I have an applicant with a "B" average in math thru
trig., chemestry and physics, and a foreign language (whether from a public
or private school or a *recognized* home study program) I can pretty much
depend on his/her having some knowledge of those subjects - enough
confidence that I'd bring them for interviews. OTOH, if a application shows
no math, science or languages in high school and "satisfactory" for grades
in dumbell English, study hall and gym - or worse if it says "home schooled"
with no backup credentials whatsoever I'd prolly keep looking.

Unfortunately, as Larry says, nobody has "shop" classes any more - classes
that teach kids to be apprentice carpenters, electricians or machinists. I
don't think this is as much politically motivated as it is fear of
liability. Many (most?) 14-18 year olds are too immature to trust with a
hammer let alone run machine tools or work with electricity. Remember,
Daniel Boone and Jesse Chisohm were doing their things by age 12 - how many
modern teens would you trust to carry a gun?