How about sailing instructors, the majority of which do
not have USCG licenses, but they are taking people out
for hire. My boss would not sign off on my documentation
for 151 days of sailing time because he was afraid he'd get
busted by the USCG!

"JG" wrote

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
JG wrote:
After a read of this... The Jones Act and related statutes require that
vessels used to transport cargo and passengers between U.S. ports be
owned by U.S. citizens, built in U.S. shipyards, and manned by U.S.
citizen crews... it seems like this doesn't really apply to the various
clubs that rent boats. Many, if not most, of the boats that are in
charter fleets in the US are foreign made (Bene's and such), although
I'm pretty sure they're owned and operated by US citizens. I'm wondering
if there is some distinction between "between U.S ports" and returning
to the same port, but even that seems like it wouldn't hold for several
clubs that have multiple facilities.

Bene's aren't made in the US?

The Jones act doesn't apply to uncrewed charters. It does, however,
apply to 6-Pak type charters, if they travel between US ports. A
daysail, or "cruise to nowhere" is probably exempt, but an overnight to a
nearby US port is not. You should probably consult with the local CG to
find out their interpretation or if they care.

IIRC, Jaxie used this to claim that a US citizen must always be on board
a documented vessel.

Small documented vessels can receive an exemption to the "foreign built"
law for the modest extortion of $300 - I forget exactly what conditions
have to be satisfied, but I know that my boat is eligible. It travels
with the vessel when sold, so sometimes you see a "for sale" add that
says "comes with Jones Act Exemption."

Maybe they are... don't know. I suppose some of them are.

Besides the 6-pak situation, do you know if this is for documented vs.
non-documented vessels or doesn't it matter?

I'll have to give the CG a call at some point.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

I think it's fairly unlikely that the CG would bother, but I can understand
his situation.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bart Senior" wrote in message
...
How about sailing instructors, the majority of which do
not have USCG licenses, but they are taking people out
for hire. My boss would not sign off on my documentation
for 151 days of sailing time because he was afraid he'd get
busted by the USCG!

"JG" wrote

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
JG wrote:
After a read of this... The Jones Act and related statutes require that
vessels used to transport cargo and passengers between U.S. ports be
owned by U.S. citizens, built in U.S. shipyards, and manned by U.S.
citizen crews... it seems like this doesn't really apply to the various
clubs that rent boats. Many, if not most, of the boats that are in
charter fleets in the US are foreign made (Bene's and such), although
I'm pretty sure they're owned and operated by US citizens. I'm
wondering if there is some distinction between "between U.S ports" and
returning to the same port, but even that seems like it wouldn't hold
for several clubs that have multiple facilities.

Bene's aren't made in the US?

The Jones act doesn't apply to uncrewed charters. It does, however,
apply to 6-Pak type charters, if they travel between US ports. A
daysail, or "cruise to nowhere" is probably exempt, but an overnight to
a nearby US port is not. You should probably consult with the local CG
to find out their interpretation or if they care.

IIRC, Jaxie used this to claim that a US citizen must always be on board
a documented vessel.

Small documented vessels can receive an exemption to the "foreign built"
law for the modest extortion of $300 - I forget exactly what conditions
have to be satisfied, but I know that my boat is eligible. It travels
with the vessel when sold, so sometimes you see a "for sale" add that
says "comes with Jones Act Exemption."

Maybe they are... don't know. I suppose some of them are.

Besides the 6-pak situation, do you know if this is for documented vs.
non-documented vessels or doesn't it matter?

I'll have to give the CG a call at some point.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

You don't need to be licensed to sign off. The small vessel sea servive
form can be signed off by owners as well.

M.


"Bart Senior" wrote in message
...
How about sailing instructors, the majority of which do
not have USCG licenses, but they are taking people out
for hire. My boss would not sign off on my documentation
for 151 days of sailing time because he was afraid he'd get
busted by the USCG!

"JG" wrote

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
JG wrote:
After a read of this... The Jones Act and related statutes require
that
vessels used to transport cargo and passengers between U.S. ports be
owned by U.S. citizens, built in U.S. shipyards, and manned by U.S.
citizen crews... it seems like this doesn't really apply to the
various
clubs that rent boats. Many, if not most, of the boats that are in
charter fleets in the US are foreign made (Bene's and such), although
I'm pretty sure they're owned and operated by US citizens. I'm
wondering
if there is some distinction between "between U.S ports" and returning
to the same port, but even that seems like it wouldn't hold for
several
clubs that have multiple facilities.

Bene's aren't made in the US?

The Jones act doesn't apply to uncrewed charters. It does, however,
apply to 6-Pak type charters, if they travel between US ports. A
daysail, or "cruise to nowhere" is probably exempt, but an overnight to
a
nearby US port is not. You should probably consult with the local CG
to
find out their interpretation or if they care.

IIRC, Jaxie used this to claim that a US citizen must always be on
board
a documented vessel.

Small documented vessels can receive an exemption to the "foreign
built"
law for the modest extortion of $300 - I forget exactly what conditions
have to be satisfied, but I know that my boat is eligible. It travels
with the vessel when sold, so sometimes you see a "for sale" add that
says "comes with Jones Act Exemption."

Maybe they are... don't know. I suppose some of them are.

Besides the 6-pak situation, do you know if this is for documented vs.
non-documented vessels or doesn't it matter?

I'll have to give the CG a call at some point.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

It doesn't matter where the hull was built as long as it's registered
properly. The Jones Act is primarily for merchant shipping, crews,
passengers, and cargo and is 'protectionest' in nature. Even so there are
some exceptions. An example is Norwegian Cruise Lines which now sails out
of Seattle to Alaska. Far as I know they are still officered by Norwegians
and crewed by people from many countries. There ship in Hawaii however,
that stays primarily within the islands has a US union crew. Another
exception is in crew make up itself. I've shipped on US Navy ships with
sailors from the Phillipines on a Phillipine passport. Both in the underway
replenishment fleet and in the contract fleet. A 'green card' is required
however for the latter. For the former, a peculiarity is the stated
requirement of Military Sealift Command that all crew be citizens and
english speaking...in practicality this does not apply to at least
Phillipine citizens. I think it's a left over sweetheart deal from the
McArthur/WWII days. A probable reason for these exceptions is the lack of
people in the US willing to go to work at sea, even though the jobs enjoy
fairly high pay not to mention the extras. ALL of these MSC ships come
under both Naval regulations (sorry no grog) and civil regulations.
Inspections by the Navy, the Coast Guard and the American Bureau of
Shipping. Coast guard has several types of articles for crew to sign.
Layberth where the ship doesn't go anywhere and has a minium caretake crew.
US Port to US Port on the same coast. US Port to US Port on a different
coast, and Foreign Articles. Rules are different for each. Cargo is another
strange area. For example for a US Navy contract crewed ship (USNS Bob Hope
a ro-ro for example) to crew up and haul cargo to the middle east the cargo
must first be offered to strictly commercial US vessels, then to other than
US commercial vessels, then to the ships you all paid for to do that job.
The way it's handled is the bid writing is so tight only ships like the
Hopeless can do the job in the time specified. Don't ask me.congress wrote
the laws. The Jones Act regularly comes under attack by the Representatives
and Senators from Hawaii who believe allowing foreign owned, flagged, and
crewed vessels to haul 48 to the islands will lower costs. That's some of
the ins and outs but none of it applies to Jon and his Bene Fleet and don't
mention it to loudly or it will be like Red Ron Dellums all over again
trying to tax recreational boats by the square footage of their sails. True
story. He thought it wasn't fair that sailboats didn't pay fuel tax.

Hope that helps a bit. It's not an easy issue but another source besides
the Coasties are the union halls, might try asking them SUP for example in
San Francisco.

M.


"JG" wrote in message
...
After a read of this... The Jones Act and related statutes require that
vessels used to transport cargo and passengers between U.S. ports be owned
by U.S. citizens, built in U.S. shipyards, and manned by U.S. citizen
crews... it seems like this doesn't really apply to the various clubs that
rent boats. Many, if not most, of the boats that are in charter fleets in
the US are foreign made (Bene's and such), although I'm pretty sure
they're
owned and operated by US citizens. I'm wondering if there is some
distinction between "between U.S ports" and returning to the same port,
but
even that seems like it wouldn't hold for several clubs that have multiple
facilities.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Cross post to ASA removed because I filter all crossposts

I've been told that my foreign built boats (Nonsuch, PDQ) can't be used for carrying
passengers for hire. However, a waiver is avialable. The site,
marad.dot.gov/smallvessel seems to be down now (I assume MARAD is still in business),
but here's a cached partial version:


SUMMARY
In order to implement the law allowing for small passenger vessel waivers, a set of
procedures has been established to expedite the waiver process. As part of the
application procedure, MARAD requires:
A non-refundable $300 application fee per waiver request.
A completed application (discussed below.)
A period of public notice, which will include the publication of the intended use of
the vessel for a period of 30-days in the Federal Register.
After the public notice period MARAD will use all sources available to determine if
the issuance of the waiver will cause an "undue adverse affect" on existing operators
and shipbuilders. If we believe that providing a waiver would cause undue damage, we
will not issue a waiver. Lastly, there is a review procedure and a waiver revocation
process if it has been determined that there was fraud at the time of application.
Almost all waiver requests are approved.
Once a waiver is obtained, it becomes part of the vessel’s documentation and stays
with the vessel if it is sold.
BASIC ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS
There are some basic requirements for a vessel to qualify for a waiver under this
program:
The vessel must be at least three years old.
The vessel must be of at least 5 net tons (approximately 24’ in length).
The vessel, when in service, cannot carry more than 12 passengers.
The intended use must be to carry passengers only. Activities such as carriage of
cargo, commercial fishing, towing, dredging and salvage do not qualify for this
program. Sport fishing is permitted as long as the fish caught are not sold
commercially.
The vessel must be owned by a U.S.-Citizen.
The vessel must meet all other U.S. Coast Guard requirements for a Coastwise Trade
Endorsement before it can engage in commercial service.
Once a waiver is received, the applicant should file for a Coastwise Trade Endorsement
for the passenger trade with the U.S. Coast Guard (USCG).
For information on meeting USCG requirements, please contact the Coast Guard’s
National Vessel Documentation Center on 1-800-799-8362.
....


"Michael" wrote in message
...
It doesn't matter where the hull was built as long as it's registered
properly. The Jones Act is primarily for merchant shipping, crews,
passengers, and cargo and is 'protectionest' in nature. Even so there are
some exceptions. An example is Norwegian Cruise Lines which now sails out
of Seattle to Alaska. Far as I know they are still officered by Norwegians
and crewed by people from many countries. There ship in Hawaii however,
that stays primarily within the islands has a US union crew. Another
exception is in crew make up itself. I've shipped on US Navy ships with
sailors from the Phillipines on a Phillipine passport. Both in the underway
replenishment fleet and in the contract fleet. A 'green card' is required
however for the latter. For the former, a peculiarity is the stated
requirement of Military Sealift Command that all crew be citizens and
english speaking...in practicality this does not apply to at least
Phillipine citizens. I think it's a left over sweetheart deal from the
McArthur/WWII days. A probable reason for these exceptions is the lack of
people in the US willing to go to work at sea, even though the jobs enjoy
fairly high pay not to mention the extras. ALL of these MSC ships come
under both Naval regulations (sorry no grog) and civil regulations.
Inspections by the Navy, the Coast Guard and the American Bureau of
Shipping. Coast guard has several types of articles for crew to sign.
Layberth where the ship doesn't go anywhere and has a minium caretake crew.
US Port to US Port on the same coast. US Port to US Port on a different
coast, and Foreign Articles. Rules are different for each. Cargo is another
strange area. For example for a US Navy contract crewed ship (USNS Bob Hope
a ro-ro for example) to crew up and haul cargo to the middle east the cargo
must first be offered to strictly commercial US vessels, then to other than
US commercial vessels, then to the ships you all paid for to do that job.
The way it's handled is the bid writing is so tight only ships like the
Hopeless can do the job in the time specified. Don't ask me.congress wrote
the laws. The Jones Act regularly comes under attack by the Representatives
and Senators from Hawaii who believe allowing foreign owned, flagged, and
crewed vessels to haul 48 to the islands will lower costs. That's some of
the ins and outs but none of it applies to Jon and his Bene Fleet and don't
mention it to loudly or it will be like Red Ron Dellums all over again
trying to tax recreational boats by the square footage of their sails. True
story. He thought it wasn't fair that sailboats didn't pay fuel tax.

Hope that helps a bit. It's not an easy issue but another source besides
the Coasties are the union halls, might try asking them SUP for example in
San Francisco.

M.


"JG" wrote in message
...
After a read of this... The Jones Act and related statutes require that
vessels used to transport cargo and passengers between U.S. ports be owned
by U.S. citizens, built in U.S. shipyards, and manned by U.S. citizen
crews... it seems like this doesn't really apply to the various clubs that
rent boats. Many, if not most, of the boats that are in charter fleets in
the US are foreign made (Bene's and such), although I'm pretty sure
they're
owned and operated by US citizens. I'm wondering if there is some
distinction between "between U.S ports" and returning to the same port,
but
even that seems like it wouldn't hold for several clubs that have multiple
facilities.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com