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#21
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I haven't followed yachts closely enough in the past couple of decades
to comment on individual designs. However, I can't remember ever seeing anything by Bob Perry that I didn't like. Brewer/Wallstrom have designed some nice boats but I know I had the "Why did they do that?" reaction much more often back when I looked at every yacht design I came across. Most of my career has been spent on metal vessels. If I were going around the world, I'd want to go in a steel or aluminum boat. I'd favor aluminum because of a more reliable compass and because you can patch it with a hand drill and sheet metal screws. Aluminum tends to bend flat and intact where steel fractures even though it is stronger in the stiffness sense. I once saw an aluminum yacht that went ashore on Nomans Land Island. The keel was torn off and one side was pounded in about five feet for three quarters of the length of the vessel. There were only about three six inch cracks that would have let water in. If she had been worth saving, she could have been made watertight and floated off with a roll of duct tape. A steel boat would have been in pieces all over the beach. The key thing I would look for is a full length skeg along the leading edge of the rudder all the way to the bottom. The directional stability comes from that fixed foil. Turning the rudder makes it a lifting surface in the direction you want to move the stern. A lot of the turning force then is created by something fixed to the hull instead of on a hinge where you have to resist it with your hands. The typical semi skeg with a bit of balance forward (as on the Endeavors) is a silly arrangement usually. There isn't enough balance on 90% of the rudders you see to effect the helm forces, the directional stability is reduced, and a line catcher created. The only rational for this kind of rudder is to look techie like an airplane. Our boat had glass added to the forward part of the rudder to increase the balance to an amount that will actually do something. 15 to 20 percent should be ahead of the hinge line. Some winter, before that trip around Newfoundland and up to Labrador, I'd like to cut it back and extend the skeg all the way down though. It's an easy conversion on most boats. For directional stability, you want lots of leading edge back there. I think my beef with a lot of Brewer/Wallstrom boats was that the cutout ahead of the rudder is often kind of a token so that there is very little leading edge. -- Roger Long "rhys" wrote in message ... On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 16:39:41 GMT, "Roger Long" wrote: Personally, I like cutaway forefoot, skeg hung, semi-full keelers. Best of all worlds if designed right. This boat designer agrees with you which is exactly why we bought the Endeavour 32. OK, Mr. Designer...I am glad I am on the right track...I seem to be a lone voice in the wilderness advocating a number of older Ted Brewer/Bob Wallstrom/Robert Perry designs G. On the used boat market, what models would you recommend "like this" but in the 38-45 foot range? I also favour steel if well constructed and coated originally, which is admittedly a big "if". Your opinion would be most appreciated. R. |
#22
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Here is a picture of how the rudder was enlarged on our boat with the
original line shown: http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Rudder.jpg The balance is still pretty minimal but you can see that there was effectively none before. The way I would modify it is shown in red. -- Roger Long |
#23
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In article ,
Stephen Trapani wrote: Hull speed is the absolute maximum that boat can travel through water. All your examples have the water moving forward also so the boat is not exceeding hull speed through the water. I thought I mentioned this before. Hope I'm not repeating myself. Hull speed is a suggestion for our boat, not the law. Though our theoretical hull speed is 6.65 knots, we regularly exceed that with aplomb, close hauled, close reach, broad reach, whatever point of sail. Spent a wonderful afternoon with 6 other sailors last season. As long as I was on the tiller, pushing her to where she likes to be, we were well above the theoretical hull speed. As we pinched to get back into the harbor, she insisted on doing over 7 knots directly into the wind (okay, about 15 degrees off). That last was our lovely lady showing off, of course, as what we did was clearly impossible. 1.34 was derived from observing boats about a century ago. Depending on the hull, that constant can be quite a bit different. As I recall, some multi-hull boats' K is in the 2 or 3 range. Xan's fat ass and sharp transom keeps her driving towards a 1.7 or so constant. -- Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
#24
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On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 09:32:25 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote: Comments below. Most of my career has been spent on metal vessels. If I were going around the world, I'd want to go in a steel or aluminum boat. I'd favor aluminum because of a more reliable compass and because you can patch it with a hand drill and sheet metal screws. Aluminum tends to bend flat and intact where steel fractures even though it is stronger in the stiffness sense. Interesting. I work with aluminum on the mast and I've fabbed up 1/4 in. backing plates for most of the deck gear, so I know simple hand tools will suffice, but usually the knock AGAINST aluminum is that it requires special welding gear and skills. I didn't think of it in terms of making a through bolted patch and running a bead of sealant around...but why not as a "get you home" metallic fothering? I once saw an aluminum yacht that went ashore on Nomans Land Island. The keel was torn off and one side was pounded in about five feet for three quarters of the length of the vessel. There were only about three six inch cracks that would have let water in. If she had been worth saving, she could have been made watertight and floated off with a roll of duct tape. A steel boat would have been in pieces all over the beach. I would think it would be worth saving for the aluminum alone...isn't "marine" aluminum a fairly expensive alloy? The key thing I would look for is a full length skeg along the leading edge of the rudder all the way to the bottom. The directional stability comes from that fixed foil. Turning the rudder makes it a lifting surface in the direction you want to move the stern. A lot of the turning force then is created by something fixed to the hull instead of on a hinge where you have to resist it with your hands. I'm a big fan of skegs for safety and directional reasons. If you ground by the stern with a spade rudder, usually it's game over. A skeg can help...maybe...to save it. The typical semi skeg with a bit of balance forward (as on the Endeavors) is a silly arrangement usually. There isn't enough balance on 90% of the rudders you see to effect the helm forces, the directional stability is reduced, and a line catcher created. The only rational for this kind of rudder is to look techie like an airplane. So you're no fan of the "Brewer Bite"? snip For directional stability, you want lots of leading edge back there. I think my beef with a lot of Brewer/Wallstrom boats was that the cutout ahead of the rudder is often kind of a token so that there is very little leading edge. I am not sure of the logic either, except that it makes otherwise traditional boats more "modern" looking on the undersides. R. |
#25
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On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 09:56:17 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote: Here is a picture of how the rudder was enlarged on our boat with the original line shown: http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Rudder.jpg The balance is still pretty minimal but you can see that there was effectively none before. The way I would modify it is shown in red. Good picture! Thanks for your thoughts. R. |
#26
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I'm a big fan of skegs for safety and directional reasons. If you
ground by the stern with a spade rudder, usually it's game over. A skeg can help...maybe...to save it. Just to clarify: That is a fixed skeg shown on my proposed modification. On spade rudders: On power boats, I favor spade rudders. If the rudder has good clearance from the hull at the top, it will often remain functional after a grounding. The shaft may bend and the boat steer funny but it will still be steerable. With a bottom bearing, a little bit of bending will usually bind the whole thing up so if is useless. In a glass boat, it will be hard to make the skeg stiff enough to support the rudder. The whole thing can flex enough that the shaft will bend and the skeg will then bind the rudder. Even in metal, the sailboat type skeg will be hard to make sufficiently stiff. It doesn't take a lot of extra metal to make a rudder stock strong to be self supporting. If I were designing a boat that was not a weight critical racer, I would make the stock large enough to be a spade rudder. The skeg would then be structurally separate with just a line guard at the bottom. Grounding damage, which usually will bend the stock aft, would then leave the boat steerable in most cases. -- Roger Long |
#27
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Stephen Trapani wrote:
Hull speed is the absolute maximum that boat can travel through water. Not really. "Hull Speed" is sort of a convenient shorthand for indicating where the graph of a vessel's speed vs power begins to get inconveniently steep. All your examples have the water moving forward also so the boat is not exceeding hull speed through the water. Even catamarans? How about planing types? DSK |
#28
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#29
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In article ,
DSK wrote: Usually making hulls non-rigid makes them slower for given power. One notable exception: a PortaBote, but that's not practical for most hulls. The hull deforms unbelievably, which is disconcerting. But, in general, it's true. -- Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
#30
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On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 05:25:11 GMT, Jere Lull wrote:
In article , DSK wrote: Usually making hulls non-rigid makes them slower for given power. One notable exception: a PortaBote, but that's not practical for most hulls. The hull deforms unbelievably, which is disconcerting. It is hard for me to believe that is an exceoption. It would be notable if so. Indeed, it would be a miracle. Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a "Religious wisdom is to wisdom as military music is to music." |
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