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informed and calculated risk
I hope you will forgive my rant but it does concern sailing. I got
onto this topic because someone here thinks taking a tiny child sailing is bad. This no-risk-nanny-state-knows-best attitude I find nauseating and I hope its purveyor is not an American. Remember that our ancestors took amazing risks with their children. Many of them took them onto leaky sailing vessels to spend months crossing oceans where the known death rate was very high. Remember that many of our ancestors piled their kids onto wagons and spent months in a very hostile environment where the death rate was very high. If you want a real perspective on this, read about the Mormon Hand Cart disaster on the plains of Wyoming and Nebraska, its a real heartbreaker. In very few cases, people did NOT have to take these extreme risks with their families but I think Americans should be thankful they did because it has been passed on as part of our national character. I am not advocating risk for any macho reasons and in fact am repulsed by macho BS risky behavior. Instead, I advocate informed and calculated risk taking. Over the years, either due to major personality flaws or the almighty trying to kill me I have managed to take part in some strange outdoor activities and in every case I saw examples of macho BS and calculated risk taking and avoidance. I have stood on the dock looking at small white caps on the water with my crew looking disgusted at me thinking I was a coward wimp because I suddenly got a bad feeling about sailing that day and decided I was not able to make good decisions. Some of these people will no longer sail with me for that reason but I still think I was right. Back when I did a lot of rock climbing, I dated a girl who also climbed and we went on a trip to climb Devils Tower in WY. Just on a whim, I wimped out and she was disgusted and never went out with me again but I think I was right not to climb. On three separate occasions I have carried 500' of cave rope up a mountain in Alabama and snaked through the canyon passages and rigged the 408' drop into Surprise Pit only to decide at the last minute not to do the pit. Now I am nearly 50 and some of my friends have been killed and some seriously injured because they gave in to macho impulses when they should have allowed reason to guide their judgement. They might have thought me a wimp when I refused to do something at particular time, but they have stopped either due to death or dumb-ass injury while I have managed to eventually do the things I wanted and even more than they ever did. One friend of mine is paralysed from the waist down, he fell 250' in a cave ...and lived...sorta. The day before the trip, he asked me to go and told me who was leading the trip. I refused to go and told him it was because I did not approve of the leaders attitude toward safety. He was dissapointed and puzzled because this leader was a world famous caver (caving is a small world, you can be world famous by knowing only 1000 ppl). The next day, he allowed his judgement to be swayed by macho crap and will pay for it the rest of his life. A few years ago, Sail magazine ran an article called "Chicken Harbor" in which they criticized people who wait for weeks at West End for "perfect weather" before crossing the Gulf Stream. This was one of the most perverted disgusting macho pieces of crap I have ever read and I wonder how many people it has killed trying to live up to such nonsense. I have never read Sail Mag since. One should never allow the perceptions of others regarding your bravery to influence your judgement. In spite of this, some might see your decisions as macho but you should discourage this and explain your assessment of the risk vs reward. My kids see me perusing the orbital photos of Mars where I explain that I think I see cave features on its water torn surface. My kids, especially my 8 yr old daughter, have loved the mild cave exploring we have done together and I tell them that someday they will be exploring caves on Mars. First she looks excited, then pensive, then scared and asks "but wouldn't we have to take a rocket to get there", "of course I say, it could take months", she replies "rockets sometimes blow up." I tell her that is true but she will have to evaluate that risk vs her urge to explore. Very young children may not remember specific events but attitudes get passed on to them very quickly. If you give them irrational reasons to be fearful, they will be. If you give them ability to evaluate risk, they will do so (This does not apply to 14 yr old boys who temporarily suspend rational judgement in favor of decisions made by Testosterone). My rant for the day, now I am going to work on my MiniCups (12' hoem built sailboats). |
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Paul Schilter wrote:
dbohara, The number one rule in scuba diving (besides rushing for the surface)is you can cancel or abort the dive at any time, no questions asked. Anyone who tries to make someone feel uncomfortable with their decision to abort isn't a friend. Paul Reminds me of the time a 'good buddy' of mine loaned me equipment and took me out into a cove off the North Atlantic ocean. We went down and I couldn't breath. I came back up and he said to try again...that I was probably panicking and trying too hard. Seemed to make sense, so I tried it again..once more couldn't breath and noticed the two other guys had disappeared. I popped to the surface, inflated my vest and snorkeled to shore. He came back a while later, checked my tank and then admitted he had forgotten to fill it. I haven't tried it since. |
Don White wrote:
went down and I couldn't breath. I came back up and he said to try again...that I was probably panicking and trying too hard. When this happened to me, my partner laffed and said, "First, you have to breathe OUT!" It was the first time I had donned SCUBA gear and, of course, I filled my lungs before going under. Paul |
Paul wrote:
Anyone who tries to make someone feel uncomfortable with their decision to abort isn't a friend. Paul Ding! We have a winner folks. _Never_ relinquish your right to exercise your own _good_ judgment. |
Don:
Are you sure this is a "friend". He didnt maybe take out an insurance policy on you did he. Maybe sometime in the distant past you ****ed him off? |
Cave diving is one of the few things I will not try. It is one of the
few sports where almost ANY mistake is fatal. I am glad some people do it but I consider it to be an elaborate form of suicide. |
dbohar,
I considered taking a course but haven't gotten around to it. Your buoyancy control has to be perfect. Just couldn't see what would be that interesting in a cave. Plus you have to reconfigure to a long hose. I might give rebreathers a go at some point but for now open circuit is fine. Paul wrote: Cave diving is one of the few things I will not try. It is one of the few sports where almost ANY mistake is fatal. I am glad some people do it but I consider it to be an elaborate form of suicide. |
Don,
Yeah you always want to keep on eye on your tank's pressure gage. Also breath off the regulator and watch the gage, it shouldn't drop any or your tank valve isn't all the way open. Since my wife is my dive buddy I try not to get us into any tight situations. Paul Don White wrote: Paul Schilter wrote: dbohara, The number one rule in scuba diving (besides rushing for the surface)is you can cancel or abort the dive at any time, no questions asked. Anyone who tries to make someone feel uncomfortable with their decision to abort isn't a friend. Paul Reminds me of the time a 'good buddy' of mine loaned me equipment and took me out into a cove off the North Atlantic ocean. We went down and I couldn't breath. I came back up and he said to try again...that I was probably panicking and trying too hard. Seemed to make sense, so I tried it again..once more couldn't breath and noticed the two other guys had disappeared. I popped to the surface, inflated my vest and snorkeled to shore. He came back a while later, checked my tank and then admitted he had forgotten to fill it. I haven't tried it since. |
I've approach whitewater canoeing/kayak with the same attitude and
experience. I've lost boating buddies because I've decided at the putin that I'm not comfortable with a particular run on a particular day, but I've considered those people not worth my time; if they won't accept my judgment about my own abilities and present condition then I'm better off without them. Whitewater demands that a paddler is on top of his game, with serious consequences if he's not. Most experienced paddlers understand this and give each other carte blanche to decide for themselves whether they are ready for a run. As soon as a suggestion, "Let's run the Gauley today." becomes an urge or taunt, "C'mon, don't be so chicken. You know you can do this.", experienced paddlers spot a jerk and tend to leave them behind. The first thing taught to new boaters is that they alone are ultimately responsible for the decision to make a run or not. I would expect the same respect from other sailors, and I will put those people who try to push me into situations I'm not ready for into the same category that pushy salesmen populate; those concerned with their own needs at the expense of others.. Padeen |
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One of my friends died due to a faulty Buoyancy compensator. He was
250' down in Little Dismal Sink and had managed to connect Little_dismal to Emerald forming the worlds longest mapped underwater cave. They were breathing some weird mix of air. To exit the cave, they must take off their tanks and push them through a constriction while still breathing through the hose attached. Suddenly, There was a cloud of silt and when it cleared they saw his light waaaaaaay above them. They were in a dome that rose over 100' with the constriction at the bottom. They slowly made their way up to him, pausing for the decrease in pressure. He was alive and still breathing and was looking around they say. However, they could not get him to go through the constriction. They even tried tying his hose to him and somehow pulling the tank through but nothing worked. They kept trying till they were nearly out of air and had to leave him. When they got back down with more air, he was dead of course. An autopsy later showed that the rapid ascent had given him a brain embolism so he was sort of brain dead when they were trying to get him through the constriction. I probably have some of these details wrong because I am not a diver but it was basically a bad BC. These guys were operating on the edge of dive technology. A good friend and good caver lost. Later, some of these same people pioneered the use of rebreathers for this same cave system and they were later used in Wakulla and in Mexico. I think the obsession of cave diving is the same for any part of the unknown. Finding some place no other human has ever seen gives you chills and makes you feel closer to the almighty than anything I can think of. Until a century ago, it was still possible to do this on earths surface so exploration by sail drove the great age of exploration. Today, there are very few unexplored places left on earths surface so people who are obsessed with exploration have to some extremes, like caves or the ocean depths or even space. Dont get me started or I'll rant all day about this. |
Remarkable story, dbohara. Do you think your friend regretted his decision
spend his life diving? Padeen |
If possible, I would think he would be happy he spent so much time
diving. He got got into dry caving because of a messy divorce and he wanted to get his mind off of it. When he learned about cave mapping, he returned to his former interest in scuba and applied this mapping skill to cave diving. When he made the first good map of spring called McBride Slough, it was a first in underwater cave mapping in being so accurate and detailed and got a lot of attention. Although his death was nearly 20 years ago, I can still see his enthusiasm and the far-away look in his eyes as he described swimming through vast hallways with drowned columnar formations stretching off into the distance out of reach of his light(You have to realize that these caves where formed when the water level was a couple hundred feet lower, the Gulf of Mexico shoreline was 50 miles furhter out 10,000 yrs ago). Being a dry caver, I could picture this but with the added experience of floating through it instead of climbing through it. The exploration-discovery obsession really had hold of him and I can see why. It is a nearly religious experience that makes people take risks that may seem extreme but it is not for macho reasons. Padeen wrote: Remarkable story, dbohara. Do you think your friend regretted his decision spend his life diving? Padeen |
I can understand that far-away look. I've often pushed my boundaries for
what I consider something worth dying for, and have lived with the premise that any death doing something I love, active and engaged, would be worthwhile, compared to dying in an auto accident, or a cancer ward. Thanks for your description of your friend's passion. Padeen wrote in message oups.com... If possible, I would think he would be happy he spent so much time diving. He got got into dry caving because of a messy divorce and he wanted to get his mind off of it. When he learned about cave mapping, he returned to his former interest in scuba and applied this mapping skill to cave diving. When he made the first good map of spring called McBride Slough, it was a first in underwater cave mapping in being so accurate and detailed and got a lot of attention. Although his death was nearly 20 years ago, I can still see his enthusiasm and the far-away look in his eyes as he described swimming through vast hallways with drowned columnar formations stretching off into the distance out of reach of his light(You have to realize that these caves where formed when the water level was a couple hundred feet lower, the Gulf of Mexico shoreline was 50 miles furhter out 10,000 yrs ago). Being a dry caver, I could picture this but with the added experience of floating through it instead of climbing through it. The exploration-discovery obsession really had hold of him and I can see why. It is a nearly religious experience that makes people take risks that may seem extreme but it is not for macho reasons. Padeen wrote: Remarkable story, dbohara. Do you think your friend regretted his decision spend his life diving? Padeen |
As both a sailing and a flying instructor I deal with these issues
quite a bit. You don't want people doing stupid macho stunts and killing themselves, but there is also such a thing as being too chicken. Beyond a certain limit you have to wonder at a person's basic ability. A pilot with little short field experience passing up a 1200 foot strip is a smart pilot. If he is unsure of getting a Skyhawk into a 2500 fot strip then I would wonder if he had the required aircraft control skills to be flying AT ALL. You can sit in "chicken harbour" because you aren't in a hurry, have been in storms and bad weather before, and would like a relaxing trip. If you are waiting because you are unsure of being able to handle anything but the calmest weather you are accident waiting to happen. Forecasts are not perfect and you WILL be caught out sooner or later. Iknew a guy who passed on going to the Bahamas in a large trawler because they didn't get a weather window in 4 MONTHS! I can't imagine there was weather THAT bad for that long in Florida. |
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On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 05:12:59 GMT, Rosalie B.
wrote: Well a trawler is quite a bit different from a sailboat. Not much faster, and quite a bit more uncomfortable in a seaway. I'm assuming that he was there in the winter, and I have seen quite a bit of bad weather pretty close together with really small weather windows. It also might be that when a weather windows did arrive, the boat wasn't provisioned (it's hard to stay 'ready' for 4 months) or they were having some problem with the dinghy motor or any one of a number of other things.. Of course he may really be chicken-little. In that case, it's just as well that he didn't go. Wouldn't it be worse for him to go if he's not capable of handling it just because of the scorn of people like you? If you've never done it before, it can be scary. That's why people try to band into groups - as if that would really help much. I have to say that the first time we went down the ICW (and we did not travel with anyone) and over to the Bahamas, I was always a little nauseated especially in the morning, but it wasn't seasickness - it was tension. And after Bob's heart attack, getting back on the boat and bringing it back home was also difficult for me. grandma Rosalie The ICW makes me nervous too! Between running aground in the center of the channel, tides, currents, obstructions, confusing marks, bridge schedules, nutty powerboats, and commercial shipping there are FAR more things to worry about than in the open ocean. I felt sorry for the guy with the trawler. He spent a lot of money on a very seaworthy boat and really wanted to see the Bahamas. I think if he had a hired a skipper for the crossing he would have discovered "Hey, this isn't THAT bad - I could do this too with some experience gained" |
joe_323 wrote:
As both a sailing and a flying instructor I deal with these issues quite a bit. You don't want people doing stupid macho stunts and killing themselves, but there is also such a thing as being too chicken. Beyond a certain limit you have to wonder at a person's basic ability. A pilot with little short field experience passing up a 1200 foot strip is a smart pilot. If he is unsure of getting a Skyhawk into a 2500 fot strip then I would wonder if he had the required aircraft control skills to be flying AT ALL. How hot, how high, how heavy ?. Getting in should be OK, but getting back out again could be problem. BTDTGTsoiled underwear. |
On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 20:13:44 +0100, Chris Newport
wrote: joe_323 wrote: As both a sailing and a flying instructor I deal with these issues quite a bit. You don't want people doing stupid macho stunts and killing themselves, but there is also such a thing as being too chicken. Beyond a certain limit you have to wonder at a person's basic ability. A pilot with little short field experience passing up a 1200 foot strip is a smart pilot. If he is unsure of getting a Skyhawk into a 2500 fot strip then I would wonder if he had the required aircraft control skills to be flying AT ALL. How hot, how high, how heavy ?. Getting in should be OK, but getting back out again could be problem. BTDTGTsoiled underwear. I used to *hate* doing rental checkouts for our Mooney out of our 2300 foot strip with the proverbial 50 foot trees at each end. There was about a 2 knot spread between stalling into the near trees or floating into the far trees. OTOH after my students soloed there I never worried about them going to other airports :) |
joe_323 wrote:
On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 20:13:44 +0100, Chris Newport How hot, how high, how heavy ?. Getting in should be OK, but getting back out again could be problem. BTDTGTsoiled underwear. I used to *hate* doing rental checkouts for our Mooney out of our 2300 foot strip with the proverbial 50 foot trees at each end. There was about a 2 knot spread between stalling into the near trees or floating into the far trees. OTOH after my students soloed there I never worried about them going to other airports :) Most of my flying was hot&high in Africa. I tried a Mooney and came to the conclusion that it was too damn slippery for my liking, and definitely not a short field candidate. It always gave me the impression that it would get away from me on finals given even half a chance. After a few worrying moments in the Bonanza I always stuck to the C182 or preferably the 690B when I could grab it. Both much better suited to visiting farm strips. OTOH, I always loved to watch the Pilastus Porter owned by the skydiving club, their pilot could get that thing down and stopped before the parachutists hit the ground. Amazing machine. |
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