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Rosalie B. April 11th 05 01:04 AM

Larry W4CSC wrote:

Evan Gatehouse wrote in
:

People that have their babies wear a lifejacket in a car seat sound a
bit much though! If the baby is strapped in the car seat, and the car
seat is attached to the boat, why bother?


* 30' boat flips from rogue wave. Adults thrown overboard. Child strapped
in car seat, car seat attached to boat is now underwater, face-down, in
inverted boat.....or on bottom of lake/river/ocean in sunken boat.

How many rogue waves are there in rivers or lakes OT one of the Great
Lakes? Even in the ocean, I haven't seen any rogue waves - relatively
rare.

** 30' boat sliced open from uncharted rock 2' underwater. Boat sinks in
seconds as adults scramble to unstrap child from stupid, non-PFD car seat.
Adults not wearing PFDs drown trying to save him.

The adults should also be wearing PFDs. I think the likelihood of
that happening is also rare - more likely where you are would be them
being run over by a freighter.

How about the hazard of a semi-truck overturning on your car? It does
happen (the instance I'm thinking of it killed the mom, but the baby
was OK), but it's pretty rare.

Any more stupid questions this afternoon?

What brand/model of infant PFD can that 8-month-old tiny baby wear that's
on your boat? If we put the baby in it and throw him overboard, assuming


First some people check the PFD out on their child (like in a pool)
before they go out. So they will know that it fits. Not necessary to
throw the kid overboard.

Second - an 8 month old baby is not *that* tiny. My four were all
over 8 lbs when born, and they went up from there. One or two of them
were walking by 8 months. So not that helpless either.

he is not strapped down to the sinking hulk headed for the bottom, will he
breathe any water into his lungs? Will his head slip through the hole if
you're not there to hold him in it?

Why bother?

Geez.....................(d^:)


grandma Rosalie

Stephen Trapani April 11th 05 04:54 AM

Larry W4CSC wrote:

Stephen Trapani wrote in
:


Well, we're talking about defended infants, defended by good parents
doing their job as best they can. No one was asking for help with
unattended infants.



Defended? Strapped in a carrier, strapped to the boat? "Go down with the
ship" is it? Someone bragged about this in this thread.


Barring very bad luck those infants can be defended, or rescued, like
one referred to in this thread was.

You really think the percentage of infants killed per activity is more
on boats than in cars? I'm guessing cars are *way* more dangerous, eg,
result in way more serious injuries and deaths per amount of
participants.


Hmm....millions of infants ride in cars/trucks/SUVs every day. How many
ride in boats....tops....100?


By now you've seen the URLs and stats. The percentage of infants killed
on the road is higher, so, still more dangerous for any one infant on
the road.

Another problem someone mentioned was the PFD problem. Our law says:

"All boats must have at least one Type I, II, III or V
personal flotation device that is U.S. Coast Guard–
approved, wearable and of the proper size for each
person onboard. Sizing for PFDs is based on body
weight and chest size.
. South Carolina law requires all children under 12 years of
age to wear a U.S. Coast Guard–approved Type I, II, III or
V PFD while on board a Class A (less than 16 ft. long)
boat or PWC. The PFD must be fastened and of the
proper size for the child."

Moot point...no baby PFD, no baby on a boat. The smallest CG-approved PFD
I've seen from Wally World or Waste Marine looks to be made for a kid of 3-
5?


If you're trying to say that rescuing an infant with or without a
flotation device is more difficult than rescuing any other person who
can't swimm, then I'm not sure I agree. My father in law told me about
his fear of the water coming from once when he was drowning and he
almosts drowned one guy trying to rescue him. An infant would be way
easier than that!

[...]
They'd be covered if they had a baby PFD stowed away in a plastic bag in
the quarter berth.

http://www.stearnsinc.com/NC_Product...tegoryID=45350
18
Cheap Stearns vest for small child...I doubt the straps will keep a BABY in
it.

http://www.mustangsurvival.com/produ...uct.php?id=397
This one from Mustang Survival fits chests 18 to 20". How big around are
little babies 5 days old? They don't look that big when they pop out of
Mom.


If you're trying to say that PFDs for infants are harder to find than
for anyone else, well, it seems you may be right. Sounds like they need
some kind of special rig. HEY SOMEONE INVENT SOMETHING! ;-)

Here's an INFLATABLE!
http://www.storesonline.com/site/405...uct/999-773260
Comes in a convenient airline seat storage pouch for the quarter berth.
"Under 35 pounds". Does that mean 14 lbs 9 oz? That's "Under 35 pounds",
isn't it? Will the baby be able to pull the ripcord? It gets dumber and
dumber. The FAA did some good. I suspect the reason for this being on the
market is the TSO forced airlines to change to new, improved child vests so
they dumped this on the market to unload them.

equipped.com has an interesting website that resulted in testing with
infants to see what worked or not:
http://www.equipped.com/avvests.htm#kidvest
I like the idea of the Hoover FV-2000 ($185-225) which is a CAPSULE that
not only protect the infant from breathing in water but isolates him from
the hypothermia that's killing Mom and Dad in their life jackets. They
mention some shortfalls but it's a great idea. The airlines are much more
afraid of the babys' lawyers than daddy is on his boat.


Hm, sounds like a good idea!

Let's send the CG inspectors around to all the posters with babies aboard
to see if they actually DO have a baby PFD I had a hard time finding on the
net, putting it on the baby to see how it fits and what his/her survival
chances are and write their sorry asses up when they produce the 7-year-
old's cutesy life vest with the Mickey Mouse and CG labels that have no
chance of saving the poor baby.....whos head slips easily through the big
hole.


Probably another good idea.

What's on YOUR boat, eh?


Just those for the four of us with a few cheap extras. So, okay, no
infants on board unless they have the right PFD! As it is now, anyone
anywhere near being able to fall in the water wears a PFD, including me.
Oh yeah, and anyone who's had more than two drinks who is anywhere near
able to fall in the water also wears a line! ;-)

Stephen

kth April 11th 05 01:11 PM

As I mentioned in another earlier posting, I found a PFD that fits
comfortably (and correctly) on my little one. The brand name is "sea
fit" purchased from west marine and was sized for infants less than 30
pounds. I mentioned I had purchased others as well but when she was a
week old this one fit the best. -We had water tested them as well.-

Most of the smaller ones you see do start at 30 pounds but if you look
you will find the smaller types. For the smallest of babies, look for
the type that has the closed back (with no flotation along the back) so
that is has a wider range of adjustment. I chose to stay away from the
types that only had the starps across the back. The one I use has
thinner flotation in the headrest, making it more comfortable, while
still doing it's job.


Padeen April 11th 05 09:07 PM

Larry, I think you're missing an important point: People who take small
children on the water are advocating the most effective PFD ever used - the
live, thinking, caring, responding, type AAA; an adult wearing a suitable
PFD with just the child's wellbeing in mind. This type provides a level of
safety no manufactured piece of cloth and floatation can ever begin to
emulate.

You won't find any of these on the shelf of any PFD store, nor will you find
CG specs for manufacturers to follow. What you can find, if you look and
listen, are experienced parents who have been taking their babies on the
water for years and have developed very safe methods for protecting the
lives of their offspring in most any life-threatening situation. This takes
the general form of having an adult wearing a PFD in constant proximity to
the child, with the child's welfare his sole responsibility in the event of
a problem.

Padeen



Jeff & Suz Nelson April 12th 05 02:22 AM

We had both our kids on board at 6 months...would have been earlier, but
they were born
after the harbour froze over. Our son was severely disabled but enjoyed
sailing for the
6 years of his life, our daughter is now 7.
Kids 0 - aprox 2 (before walking) easy to care for, use a car seat and
ensure they don't
get too much sun.
Ensure they have lots of fluids and
things to eat.
Kids 2 - 5 (help!) They walk but don't understand the dangers. Ensure
they've got a
good life jacket, have someone tend them full
time. Some people have
used netting to help keep them contained, we
used jacklines and vigilent
mom.
Kids above that...well, I'm still learning. I've always tried to give them
something to do
on the boat. Putting flemish coils in lines after we're docked, spooling up
the unloaded
winch after a tack, spotting navigation buoys (they're eyes are much better
than mine).
etc etc. Lots of snack food and lots of water. Games to play in the cabin
etc.

Good book called "Babies Aboard" by Lindsay Green has lots of usefull ideas
and comments.
Available at Amazon and I'm sure most nautical type places.

Hope this helps a little...
Cheers,
Jeff
C&C 30

"Miech" wrote in message
...
We're due in June and would like to hear from people who have experience
sailing with a 0-4 month old. Pros, cons, advice and warnings as well as
any product suggestions to purchase are greatly appreciated. We have had
fabulous feedback from our vessel-specific forum and wanted to tap the
veterans here as well.

(Please no stories about how your son started sailing with you at age 6.
Infants only please!)

Thanks so much,

Jay & Michelle
s/v Elixir
Buzzards Bay




Jeff & Suz Nelson April 12th 05 02:26 AM

Larry, read that section again on PFD's. I think you'll find a couple of
exceptions.
a) if your chest is greater than 54 inches
b) an infant.

Infant survival time in the water is very short as they get hypothermia very
very quickly.
So, the best idea is not to let them get in the water. That being said, you
can stay home
in your house or you can live life to the fullest. Everybodies gotta die
sometime, and
tragedies happen...That's life, so to speak.

Jeff

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
Stephen Trapani wrote in
:

Well, we're talking about defended infants, defended by good parents
doing their job as best they can. No one was asking for help with
unattended infants.


Defended? Strapped in a carrier, strapped to the boat? "Go down with the
ship" is it? Someone bragged about this in this thread.

You really think the percentage of infants killed per activity is more
on boats than in cars? I'm guessing cars are *way* more dangerous, eg,
result in way more serious injuries and deaths per amount of
participants.

Hmm....millions of infants ride in cars/trucks/SUVs every day. How many
ride in boats....tops....100?

Another problem someone mentioned was the PFD problem. Our law says:

"All boats must have at least one Type I, II, III or V
personal flotation device that is U.S. Coast Guard-
approved, wearable and of the proper size for each
person onboard. Sizing for PFDs is based on body
weight and chest size.
. South Carolina law requires all children under 12 years of
age to wear a U.S. Coast Guard-approved Type I, II, III or
V PFD while on board a Class A (less than 16 ft. long)
boat or PWC. The PFD must be fastened and of the
proper size for the child."

Moot point...no baby PFD, no baby on a boat. The smallest CG-approved PFD
I've seen from Wally World or Waste Marine looks to be made for a kid of
3-
5?

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/valleyoutdoors25.php
Here's a webpage from a North Dakota game warden who's laws are more
strict
than South Carolina's with some really great ideas like:
"If you don't have a PFD that fits your child, or it's too hot for them to
wear it, stay on shore."
The boat ran aground because someone was not paying attention. The poor
kid was in a carseat, not a PFD as required. Do carseats float UPRIGHT?
Interesting to test....in the worst waves and wakes you boat in?

The article says:
"Upon arrival I found two young parents tending to a newborn baby who
didn't have any type of PFD. The baby was in a car seat and thankfully all
was fine, aside from the boat, which came to rest up a steep wooded
incline, indicating a lack of attention while operating the vessel. I
still
to this day think of how haunting the memory would've been had the car
seat
been jolted out of the boat and into the lake.

For several years I checked boats and watercraft and was continually
disappointed in
compliance with PFD laws, especially the one that applies to children.

While only youngsters 10 and under must be wearing a Coast Guard approved
PFD
while in a boat, the common response was, "I couldn't find one that fits,"
or "it was too hot to put them in a PFD." While politely replying that the
law requires youngsters to wear PFDs, I was always reminded of what could
have happened if that baby in the carseat had accidentally wound up in the
lake."

The big boat lobby in SC has this requirement limited to only boats UNDER
SIXTEEN FEET that the kid has to have a PFD on under 12:
From the SCDNR rules manual:
"South Carolina law requires all children under 12 years of
age to wear a U.S. Coast Guard-approved Type I, II, III or
V PFD while on board a Class A (less than 16 ft. long)
boat or PWC. The PFD must be fastened and of the
proper size for the child."

If the 6-year-old who can't swim is standing on the bow of the 32' bubble
boat without a PFD on, the big boat lobby says that's OK. We can't
prosecute the parents, in SC, because the baby was strapped in the car
seat
which was secured to the port cockpit seating and went down when the boat
broached or pitchpoled or flipped over in the 40' Cigarette Boat going,
legally, 102 mph across the harbor.

We have a long history, by the way, of not prosecuting people with money
in
SC....

They'd be covered if they had a baby PFD stowed away in a plastic bag in
the quarter berth.

http://www.stearnsinc.com/NC_Product...tegoryID=45350
18
Cheap Stearns vest for small child...I doubt the straps will keep a BABY
in
it.

http://www.mustangsurvival.com/produ...uct.php?id=397
This one from Mustang Survival fits chests 18 to 20". How big around are
little babies 5 days old? They don't look that big when they pop out of
Mom.

Here's an INFLATABLE!
http://www.storesonline.com/site/405...uct/999-773260
Comes in a convenient airline seat storage pouch for the quarter berth.
"Under 35 pounds". Does that mean 14 lbs 9 oz? That's "Under 35 pounds",
isn't it? Will the baby be able to pull the ripcord? It gets dumber and
dumber. The FAA did some good. I suspect the reason for this being on
the
market is the TSO forced airlines to change to new, improved child vests
so
they dumped this on the market to unload them.

equipped.com has an interesting website that resulted in testing with
infants to see what worked or not:
http://www.equipped.com/avvests.htm#kidvest
I like the idea of the Hoover FV-2000 ($185-225) which is a CAPSULE that
not only protect the infant from breathing in water but isolates him from
the hypothermia that's killing Mom and Dad in their life jackets. They
mention some shortfalls but it's a great idea. The airlines are much more
afraid of the babys' lawyers than daddy is on his boat.

Let's send the CG inspectors around to all the posters with babies aboard
to see if they actually DO have a baby PFD I had a hard time finding on
the
net, putting it on the baby to see how it fits and what his/her survival
chances are and write their sorry asses up when they produce the 7-year-
old's cutesy life vest with the Mickey Mouse and CG labels that have no
chance of saving the poor baby.....whos head slips easily through the big
hole.

What's on YOUR boat, eh?





Padeen April 13th 05 08:06 AM

Interesting, J&S. Not to contradict you, as I have only anecdotal
experience, but I found my kids to be more cold resistant than most adults,
including me. Can you point me to some studies/ data that suggest this?
Thanks
Padeen



Rosalie B. April 13th 05 04:04 PM

"Padeen" wrote:

Interesting, J&S. Not to contradict you, as I have only anecdotal
experience, but I found my kids to be more cold resistant than most adults,
including me. Can you point me to some studies/ data that suggest this?
Thanks
Padeen

We are talking about babies, and not kids (children). And the
resistance to cold that is being referenced is hypothermia due to
being submerged in cold water, not just to swimming or being out in
the snow or something. I haven't read them, but here are some
references

# Sloan RE, Keating WR Cooling rates of young people swimming in
cold water. J Appl Physiol 1973; 35:371-375 [Free Full Text]
# Bar-Or O. Pediatric Sports Medicine for the Practitioner: From
Physiologic Principles to Clinical Applications. New York, NY:
Springer Verlag; 1983:259-299
# Bennett HJ, Wagner T, Fields A Acute hyponatremia and seizures in an
infant after a swimming lesson. Pediatrics 1983; 72:125-127 [Medline]
grandma Rosalie

Padeen April 13th 05 06:04 PM

Thanks for doing my homework for me, Rosalie. Though it's important to be
informed about this, I hope nobody in this group finds themselves testing
these various theories. I hope to have my grandkids aboard someday and will
look into the references you've so kindly brought to my attention.
Padeen

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
"Padeen" wrote:

Interesting, J&S. Not to contradict you, as I have only anecdotal
experience, but I found my kids to be more cold resistant than most

adults,
including me. Can you point me to some studies/ data that suggest this?
Thanks
Padeen

We are talking about babies, and not kids (children). And the
resistance to cold that is being referenced is hypothermia due to
being submerged in cold water, not just to swimming or being out in
the snow or something. I haven't read them, but here are some
references

# Sloan RE, Keating WR Cooling rates of young people swimming in
cold water. J Appl Physiol 1973; 35:371-375 [Free Full Text]
# Bar-Or O. Pediatric Sports Medicine for the Practitioner: From
Physiologic Principles to Clinical Applications. New York, NY:
Springer Verlag; 1983:259-299
# Bennett HJ, Wagner T, Fields A Acute hyponatremia and seizures in an
infant after a swimming lesson. Pediatrics 1983; 72:125-127 [Medline]
grandma Rosalie




Jeff & Suz Nelson April 16th 05 03:48 PM

Thanks...

What was suggested was to ensure that you have enough of those
Not Approved in canada square floation cushions...That way you
can try to make a raft and put the infant on top. Reality tells me
that if you in this situation, it's not going to be a happy ending
but makes Mom feel better...

Last year, a couple from our club pulled a couple of kids 14 and 16
out of the water in early May. They were attempting to canoe in
25kts of wind and it didn't work very well. They were in the water for
about 15 minutes and required a trip to the hospital to recover.
They're lifejacets weren't in good shape, but did keep them on the
surface...
apparently just long enough to be rescued.

Cheers,
Jeff

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
"Padeen" wrote:

Interesting, J&S. Not to contradict you, as I have only anecdotal
experience, but I found my kids to be more cold resistant than most
adults,
including me. Can you point me to some studies/ data that suggest this?
Thanks
Padeen

We are talking about babies, and not kids (children). And the
resistance to cold that is being referenced is hypothermia due to
being submerged in cold water, not just to swimming or being out in
the snow or something. I haven't read them, but here are some
references

# Sloan RE, Keating WR Cooling rates of young people swimming in
cold water. J Appl Physiol 1973; 35:371-375 [Free Full Text]
# Bar-Or O. Pediatric Sports Medicine for the Practitioner: From
Physiologic Principles to Clinical Applications. New York, NY:
Springer Verlag; 1983:259-299
# Bennett HJ, Wagner T, Fields A Acute hyponatremia and seizures in an
infant after a swimming lesson. Pediatrics 1983; 72:125-127 [Medline]
grandma Rosalie





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