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Buying a Sailboat
Boat Buying Sailboat
I have been doing research on boat purchasing. It has been suggested that the NADA values of boats are relative to the asking price and not the actual selling price. As I understand that these values are provided by the brokers and therefore - the greater the price the more the commission - I wouldnt know if this was the practice or not. Although I dont think that on the average older 26 ft sailing crusier it would make a difference. What is considered the average lenght of time it takes to sell a older 26 ft sailing crusier? Many of the boats I have seen lack any detailing. Namely, it can be seen by how clean the heads floor is. Most boats at the 20 year mark probably need: - rudder rebuild - standing rigging replacement - running rigging replacement - bottom paint - motor maintenance or replacement - battery replacement - many have original sails - cushion replacement and uphostering - port lights The most signicant would be deck moisture or delamination. On a older 26 ft sailing crusier that needed a recore what would you figure as a price of this repair and how much would or should it effect the purchase price? How would you figure what the value of a boat was given the above or combination thereof? Would the cost be: -what it would cost to have a third party do the work like the Yard Or -would you figure what the cost of the parts are and not consider the value of the work that you would do yourself. How would you determine what the actual worth of the boat is? As a percentage, is there a standard that you would use to make an offer less than asking price? ---------------------- "Consider an offer that is 20-40% below NADA value. Adjust your offer based on the seller's situation (see Types Of Sellers above.) If you get a remarkable deal, go with it. If not, tell the seller that you will leave your offer on the table for a couple of days." "Its always a buyer's market for used boats. You owe it to yourself to get the best deal possible. Remember, you're going to have to pay to repair some hidden things after you buy the boat. Those hidden things were likely not disclosed by the seller whom you may feel bad about "low-balling." Besides, many sellers will just be happy to get rid of their boat. Use this to your advantage. Sellers may frown at your initial offer, but secretly most will be happy to have some action." http://www.firstboat.schoolreference.com/ ---------------- -Good thoughts on the logic of "low-balling" on the purchase price. Please respond to forum...Thanks |
Michael wrote:
Boat Buying Sailboat snip alright that's enough ;-) quite ****ing around you want to buy a great old boat, buy this http://www.clic.net/~dcooper/hinterh...a%20vendre.htm boat is located just outside Windsor, Ontario on the Detroit River no relation to seller |
Some comments on the list of probable repairs: Rudder rebuild: The survey should tell you if you need a rudder rebuild. I bought a new rudder for my 33 ft boat and that cost $ 800. Standing rigging replacement: If the rigging has not been replaced it is high time after 20 years in salt water. I replaced my standing rigging one shroud at a time, without taking the mast down. Cost $500. If you take the mast down it probably doubles. Running rigging: Depends on condition, but not a high cost item Bottom paint. Maybe this can be done during the survey? But it certainly will have to be done. Motor maintenance or replacement: A rebuild diesel or a new one may cost up to $8000. So I would not buy a boat where the diesel needs replacement. Routine maintenance ( oil, filters, zincs, fliuds ) will need to be done. A boat with a bad engine is a "project boat" A new deep discharge battery can be bought for $50 to $80. So this is minor. Sails are often blown out and need to be replaced. For a 33 ft boat new sails cost $4000. But i used the old ones for a year and then replaced them, what a difference! Cushions are cosmetic. I recovered mine myself for $400 in fabric. In summary, I would not touch a boat that needed serious engine work or that had serious delamination. Boats with those problems are project boats and sometimes sre not worth getting unless you are really into this kind of work. The other items are relatively less important and you can simply discount the price of the baot for that. |
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:36:21 -0500, prodigal1 wrote:
Michael wrote: Boat Buying Sailboat snip alright that's enough ;-) quite ****ing around you want to buy a great old boat, buy this http://www.clic.net/~dcooper/hinterh...a%20vendre.htm boat is located just outside Windsor, Ontario on the Detroit River no relation to seller Why pick that one over this ODay 28 on Martha's Vineyard? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...8730 118&rd=1 There are incredible deals out there on boats this size because people are mostly after something bigger and/or newer. Being in the right place at the right time can make a big difference. My son bought a fundamentally sound Newport 27 with smooth running Atomic 4 for US$2225 last fall in Port Huron. Ryk |
Michael wrote:
Boat Buying Sailboat I have been doing research on boat purchasing. Working on a very obscure Ph.D thesis? It has been suggested that the NADA values of boats are relative to the asking price and not the actual selling price. Don't think so, AFAIK it's based on the reported sale prices. Many of the boats I have seen lack any detailing. Namely, it can be seen by how clean the heads floor is. Almost every single boat for sale will have been lacking in preventative maintenance. It's the nature of the beast... but you want to look very carefully at potential problems to avoid the nightmares that are *definitely* out there. Most boats at the 20 year mark probably need: - rudder rebuild Why? Bearing rebuild, maybe. If I suspected that a boat needed to have the rudder itself rebuilt, I'd pass... even if it was free... unless the boat had some really really special characteristics. - standing rigging replacement Again, why? Careful inspection... some boats will need standing rigging replaced, but I don't believe in simply "changing out" stuff that's perfectly good. One often hears about people replacing & up-sizing their standing rigging... this is downright stupid, unless one believes that the boat designer was a moron... in which case one should buy a different boat! - running rigging replacement Yep. You'll need to replace running rigging every so often anyway. Don't sweat it, just tot up the projected expense and subtract from your offer. - bottom paint Ditto above, except that you won't get far marking off the price for this. It's a regular maintenance item. - motor maintenance or replacement If the motor is that bad, look for a different boat. - battery replacement Why? Again, not a big deal... get a smart charger if the boat doesn't have one, and then go to a farm supply store for some truck/tractor batteries. Not much money or hassle here. - many have original sails See above, same as running rigging. OTOH if a boat has 'original sails' then it probably has not had other items replaced, maintained, or cared for, and may indicate a boat best left alone. Sails are more expensive that you'd believe. - cushion replacement and uphostering See above under "running rigging." - port lights ?? The most signicant would be deck moisture or delamination. On a older 26 ft sailing crusier that needed a recore what would you figure as a price of this repair and how much would or should it effect the purchase price? Free, or maybe they should pay you to take it off their hands. How would you figure what the value of a boat was given the above or combination thereof? Would the cost be: -what it would cost to have a third party do the work like the Yard If you're not willing & able to do the work yourself, don't get a boat. Seriously. Even a relatively small boat with some combination of the above problems will keep you in penury to the end of your days, and you'll spend far far more than the boat will ever conceivably be worth. -would you figure what the cost of the parts are and not consider the value of the work that you would do yourself. Yes... although my own work is priceless, it's time spent on the boat and thus is (mostly) recreation in itself. How would you determine what the actual worth of the boat is? By figuring how badly you want it... one way to compare is to look at what else is on the market. As a percentage, is there a standard that you would use to make an offer less than asking price? If the boat is cherry & is just what you want, 10% less. If there are 'issues' then it's roll yer own. A boat that's been on the market for a long time may change hands for a tiny fraction of the original ask price. Others simply get left for the boatyard to recycle. If you get a remarkable deal, go with it. The "deal of a lifetime" comes along about once a week. prodigal1 wrote: alright that's enough ;-) quite ****ing around you want to buy a great old boat, buy this http://www.clic.net/~dcooper/hinterh...a%20vendre.htm boat is located just outside Windsor, Ontario on the Detroit River no relation to seller Seems like a nice boat, but isn't the price a bit steep? Ryk wrote: Why pick that one over this ODay 28 on Martha's Vineyard? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...8730 118&rd=1 There are incredible deals out there on boats this size because people are mostly after something bigger and/or newer. You're kidding, right? It's true that the Hinterhoeller is a much nicer & better built boat, but is it really 3 1/2 X nicer? Consider relative costs. OTOH the HR-28 might take less updating than the O'Day, and will certainly fetch a higher price when you eventually sell it. I've seen the case made that an older higher priced higher quality boat is actually less expensive to own in the long run. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 09:42:20 -0500, DSK wrote:
Michael wrote: Boat Buying Sailboat I have been doing research on boat purchasing. Working on a very obscure Ph.D thesis? Maybe due diligents? Certainly far from obscure It has been suggested that the NADA values of boats are relative to the asking price and not the actual selling price. Don't think so, AFAIK it's based on the reported sale prices. Many of the boats I have seen lack any detailing. Namely, it can be seen by how clean the heads floor is. Almost every single boat for sale will have been lacking in preventative maintenance. It's the nature of the beast... but you want to look very carefully at potential problems to avoid the nightmares that are *definitely* out there. Most boats at the 20 year mark probably need: - rudder rebuild Why? Bearing rebuild, maybe. If I suspected that a boat needed to have the rudder itself rebuilt, I'd pass... even if it was free... unless the boat had some really really special characteristics. Many actually use bushings, although I believe that bearings also exist. Rudders probably get the most wear of any part of the boat even when docked. Keel hung rudders have long been seen as a "blue water" attribute, like full keels and heavy displacement. But they are "unbalanced" require more effort, And dont lend themselfs to steering in reverse well. A spade rudder is a considerably more of a rebuild issue than any other style. I could think of many more siginificant issues that would nix a purchase of a boat than a rudder rebuild. Yard cost could range anywhere from $900-3,000 - standing rigging replacement Again, why? Careful inspection... some boats will need standing rigging replaced, but I don't believe in simply "changing out" stuff that's perfectly good. One often hears about people replacing & up-sizing their standing rigging... this is downright stupid, unless one believes that the boat designer was a moron... in which case one should buy a different boat! Standing rigging has little to do with the designer and the reason to replace it. One guy in New Zeland actully uses galvinized standing rigging, that is in salt water, of course. Now that may seem stupid, but: 1 the metal is suppose to be stronger (Brian Toss) 2 it will show signs of failure before actual failure -cheaper to replace 3 inorder to keep it in good condition requires a heck of a lot of maintenance with coatings Many failure in the rigging actually are the clevis pins, tangs and couplings not the actual wire itself. - running rigging replacement Yep. You'll need to replace running rigging every so often anyway. Don't sweat it, just tot up the projected expense and subtract from your offer. Yep. Cost estimate? guess$300-700 26ft'er depending on block replacement - bottom paint Ditto above, except that you won't get far marking off the price for this. It's a regular maintenance item. If it is only anti-fouling yes. If it is osmosis repair - different story. This is an issue that usually nixes a boat purchase in many instances. - motor maintenance or replacement If the motor is that bad, look for a different boat. If it is an inboard, ya look for a different boat as replacement costs is $3,000-6,000 min. I like the concept of outboards on sailboats. That are like a saildrive, but not an actual saildrive but actually an outboard in a lazerette. Repair, replacement is a lesser cost with an OB. - battery replacement Why? Again, not a big deal... get a smart charger if the boat doesn't have one, and then go to a farm supply store for some truck/tractor batteries. Not much money or hassle here. If you want or need a 400aHr battery set probably over $400 - many have original sails See above, same as running rigging. OTOH if a boat has 'original sails' then it probably has not had other items replaced, maintained, or cared for, and may indicate a boat best left alone. Sails are more expensive that you'd believe. Average working life of a sail? Yes they cost more than you think. A new maint for a 26ft $1,100 plus - cushion replacement and uphostering See above under "running rigging." I have seen costs of over $1,000 for this... - port lights ?? The most signicant would be deck moisture or delamination. On a older 26 ft sailing crusier that needed a recore what would you figure as a price of this repair and how much would or should it effect the purchase price? Free, or maybe they should pay you to take it off their hands. Probably.....but it depends how extensive it is and if you like working with fiberglass....this issue would qulaify as the ultimate project boat. Problably one of the most siginificant deal nixer there is. But some can be expected on any 20 year boat, and it seems (from my research) many are willing to accept some degree of this issue. Around the stanchions or hardware not too bad but full decks, forget it. How would you figure what the value of a boat was given the above or combination thereof? Would the cost be: -what it would cost to have a third party do the work like the Yard If you're not willing & able to do the work yourself, don't get a boat. Seriously. Even a relatively small boat with some combination of the above problems will keep you in penury to the end of your days, and you'll spend far far more than the boat will ever conceivably be worth. I guess it a decision between repairing or sailing and which you enjoy more. Many thant bought boats didnt consider them "project boats" but after 1- 1 1/2 years latter, that what they have become. Yes many spend more than the boat will ever be worth like the H28 some guy suggest in this thread. And I think that when it come time for them to sell the boat they dont price it realistically. Based on boats generally that H28, although it seems to have nice ammenties, still the unseen price is probably 1/3 of the asking at best on a good day. If it was a triton in bristol condition with a new inboard, the current asking price might be close to being realistic. The guy selling it just isnt realistic or not really interested in selling it, he should read the info at the URL provided. The URL provided for the boat buying process is par excelances... -would you figure what the cost of the parts are and not consider the value of the work that you would do yourself. Yes... although my own work is priceless, it's time spent on the boat and thus is (mostly) recreation in itself. I wouldnt necessarly consider fiberglass, bottom jobs recreation....many but not all would rather have purchased a boat requiring less work in hindsight....my research shows... Its sort of the girl friend time VS "quality time" thing How would you determine what the actual worth of the boat is? By figuring how badly you want it... one way to compare is to look at what else is on the market. Hummm...The way I see it is for the age of a boat in bristol condition what would it be worth. Then reduce that by all the calculated hard costs (parts) not including your labour, but including some specilized labour (ie engine rebuilding, machining work, etc) then figure the price. A boat is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Perceived condition is subjective in many instances. As a percentage, is there a standard that you would use to make an offer less than asking price? If the boat is cherry & is just what you want, 10% less. If there are 'issues' then it's roll yer own. A boat that's been on the market for a long time may change hands for a tiny fraction of the original ask price. Others simply get left for the boatyard to recycle. Likely.... If you get a remarkable deal, go with it. The "deal of a lifetime" comes along about once a week. Not so sure about that...survey say many look for at least 6 months the average about 1 1/2 years before buying... prodigal1 wrote: alright that's enough ;-) quite ****ing around you want to buy a great old boat, buy this http://www.clic.net/~dcooper/hinterh...a%20vendre.htm boat is located just outside Windsor, Ontario on the Detroit River no relation to seller Seems like a nice boat, but isn't the price a bit steep? Not a serious seller.... Ryk wrote: Why pick that one over this ODay 28 on Martha's Vineyard? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...8730 118&rd=1 There are incredible deals out there on boats this size because people are mostly after something bigger and/or newer. You're kidding, right? It's true that the Hinterhoeller is a much nicer & better built boat, but is it really 3 1/2 X nicer? Consider relative costs. OTOH the HR-28 might take less updating than the O'Day, and will certainly fetch a higher price when you eventually sell it. I've seen the case made that an older higher priced higher quality boat is actually less expensive to own in the long run. Fresh water VS sal****er boats..... The HR28 a nice boat and design of its time although I dont like the ballast to weight ratio, for an older boat a Triton or an Alberg would be preferable to me. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Michael wrote:
about the HR28 Not a serious seller.... oh it's serious and it'll sell for close to that those who know, will look closely at such a boat plus, if you spending $US, you'd get a %20 bonus these days |
Dave wrote:
On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 19:41:13 GMT, (Michael) said: I like the concept of outboards on sailboats. That are like a saildrive, but not an actual saildrive but actually an outboard in a lazerette. Repair, replacement is a lesser cost with an OB. Had that setup for 20 years. Not that much fun wrestling it into place and taking it out when you're done for the weekend. If I were to go with an outboard again, I'd want one on a retractable mount on the stern, not one mounting in the lazarette. But for my money an inboard is the way to go. Close call, perhaps, with a 26. An outboard definitely has its charms when it comes to cost. The original design spec for the HR28 showed a tip-up outboard in the lazarette with a sliding drop-down sleeve that filled the gap when underway or at anchor. |
Michael wrote:
Maybe due diligents? Certainly far from obscure The purchasing of a boat is relatively straighforward. One can (and should IMHO) draw up a contract embodying the offer to buy the boat, similar to a sale contract on a house. It should protect the interests of both parties... the times I have drawn up such documents, of course I have tended to slant it a bit more my own way, OTOH many brokers offer a "standard contract" that is all but an open invitiation for him to pick the buyer's pocket. Perhaps you meant that you were researching *boats* with the possibility of buying one yourself in the near future? Most boats at the 20 year mark probably need: - rudder rebuild Why? Bearing rebuild, maybe. If I suspected that a boat needed to have the rudder itself rebuilt, I'd pass... even if it was free... unless the boat had some really really special characteristics. Many actually use bushings, although I believe that bearings also exist. Bushings, bearings, tomatoes, tom-ah-tows... the question is what does the boat you want have, and what shape are they in. Many boats have rather fancy double-race needle bearings for the lower rudder post "bushing." The loads here can be tremendous when sailing hard. BTW one point in favor out outboard rudders is the strength & simplicity of this configuration. .... I could think of many more siginificant issues that would nix a purchase of a boat than a rudder rebuild. If that was the only thing with an otherwise perfect (for you) boat, sure. Yard cost could range anywhere from $900-3,000 Again, IMHO is you can't do a job like this yourself you should be considering buying the boat. If you don't have the knowledge, at the vey least, how will you know if the boatyard does it *right*? - standing rigging replacement Standing rigging has little to do with the designer ??? Who do you think specifies the type, size, placement, etc etc? What I had in mind is the excessively salty type who brags about "upgrading" his standing rigging to the next larger size, because it so macho to brag about sailing in high winds. The issue here is that 1- rigging is sized to the boat's righting moment regadless of wind strength and 2- heavier rigging will dregarde the boats performance and 3- because of the difficulty in getting the tensions correct, may actually weaken the overall rig & bring down the mast. Unless one has reason to believe that either the designer didn't know what he doing, or the builder skimped, one should only replace standing rigging with the same type & size. ... One guy in New Zeland actully uses galvinized standing rigging, A lot of people here use galvanized, too. ... Now that may seem stupid, but: 1 the metal is suppose to be stronger (Brian Toss) ??? If the wire itself is slightly stronger, it's also less flexible and the connections are correspondingly weaker. 2 it will show signs of failure before actual failure -cheaper to replace Much much cheaper... the only real advantage IMHO. Many failure in the rigging actually are the clevis pins, tangs and couplings not the actual wire itself. Exactly. - running rigging replacement Yep. You'll need to replace running rigging every so often anyway. Don't sweat it, just tot up the projected expense and subtract from your offer. Yep. Cost estimate? guess$300-700 26ft'er depending on block replacement Shucks I've spent well more than that on a 19 footer... a racing boat, to be sure... - bottom paint Ditto above, except that you won't get far marking off the price for this. It's a regular maintenance item. If it is only anti-fouling yes. If it is osmosis repair - different story. Blisters are not covered under "bottom paint." Blister repair can be anything from minor annoyance to major structural nightmare. I like the concept of outboards on sailboats. I do too, up to a certain size. Beyond 26' it can be a problem both in mass of the boat & pitching out the prop. But an outboard makes the boat marvelously maneuveralbe (provided you can reach it handily to swivel it around). ... That are like a saildrive, but not an actual saildrive but actually an outboard in a lazerette. Every arrangement I've ever seen like this was a total PITA. Of course, better arrangements may exist. ... Repair, replacement is a lesser cost with an OB. Very true, but then risk of theivery or submergence or damage is higher; reliability is often lower too. - battery replacement Why? Again, not a big deal... get a smart charger if the boat doesn't have one, and then go to a farm supply store for some truck/tractor batteries. Not much money or hassle here. If you want or need a 400aHr battery set probably over $400 Not if you know where to shop. Besides, the battery itself is rarely the problem with "dead batteries." What's the point in buying new batteries if the wiring & charging are going to kill it again in short order? Average working life of a sail? Depends very much on the sail & usage. The hardest things for a sail to endure are flogging or flapping, and UV exposure. A sail that is left hoisted to slap around freely will be tatters in a few days. A sail that is left uncovered... especially in the harsh Southern sun... will be rotten in a few months if not weeks. Personally, I am rather spoiled by having had very nice racing sails. I hate seeing baggy blown out rags that kill the boat's pointing, give excessive & erratic helm, and heel it way over. Sails that get regular use should probably be replaced in 3 ~ 5 years. Yes they cost more than you think. A new maint for a 26ft $1,100 plus The most signicant would be deck moisture or delamination. On a older 26 ft sailing crusier that needed a recore what would you figure as a price of this repair and how much would or should it effect the purchase price? Free, or maybe they should pay you to take it off their hands. Probably.....but it depends how extensive it is and if you like working with fiberglass.... Does anybody really *like* working with fiberglass? I'm pretty good at it myself (pardon a little bragging) but it is out of necessity, not because I like it. I'd rather do wood work (which I'm not very good at) or mechanical work any day. ....this issue (delamination or structural repair) would qulaify as the ultimate project boat. Problably one of the most siginificant deal nixer there is. But some can be expected on any 20 year boat Depends very much on the boat & it's care. IMHO many many boats will not need significant fiberglass work... or structural work... in 40+ years much less 20. ... and it seems (from my research) many are willing to accept some degree of this issue. Sure. Some people bought AMC Gremlins, too ;) I guess it a decision between repairing or sailing and which you enjoy more. And what your budget will allow. Many people badly underestimate the cost of repairs & upgrades needed by a boat they're considering buying. How would you determine what the actual worth of the boat is? By figuring how badly you want it... one way to compare is to look at what else is on the market. Hummm...The way I see it is for the age of a boat in bristol condition what would it be worth. But that depends on the buyer, too. For example, I know a man who not only paid an already high asking price, but also paid the owner/seller handsomely to do some small upgrades & deliver the boat. This buyer had a lot of money, was looking for a particular boat in great shape (it was a nostalgia thing) and didn't have the time himself. He wanted to recapture some happy memories of sailing and had the budget to indulge himself. Later he decided it was too expensive, sold the boat at a big loss, and now crews for other people when he has time to sail. In my case, I have always bought bargain-basement boats for very cheap (ie within my budget) and fixed them up myself. But it's really sailing... both racing & cruising... with my family that I enjoy most. It's the means to an end. ... A boat is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Perceived condition is subjective in many instances. You have gained much wisdom ;) Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 10:00:10 -0400, DSK wrote:
Michael wrote: Maybe due diligents? Certainly far from obscure The purchasing of a boat is relatively straighforward. One can (and should IMHO) draw up a contract embodying the offer to buy the boat, similar to a sale contract on a house. It should protect the interests of both parties... the times I have drawn up such documents, of course I have tended to slant it a bit more my own way, OTOH many brokers offer a "standard contract" that is all but an open invitiation for him to pick the buyer's pocket. Perhaps you meant that you were researching *boats* with the possibility of buying one yourself in the near future? Most boats at the 20 year mark probably need: - rudder rebuild Why? Bearing rebuild, maybe. If I suspected that a boat needed to have the rudder itself rebuilt, I'd pass... even if it was free... unless the boat had some really really special characteristics. Many actually use bushings, although I believe that bearings also exist. Bushings, bearings, tomatoes, tom-ah-tows... the question is what does the boat you want have, and what shape are they in. Many boats have rather fancy double-race needle bearings for the lower rudder post "bushing." The loads here can be tremendous when sailing hard. Think "balanced" vs "unbalanced" rudders....power steering vs manual. I am not aware of any production boat that was built with the bearings you suggest. I though such beasts do exist for rudders.. I doubt that anyone has ever purchased a boat having everthing they want - unless it is custom built and designed for them. Buying a boat for most of us is a compromise...overall you may like the boat and many aspects of it. For example a lead vs cast iron keel. Or a spade rudder verses transom rudder, etc, etc..... BTW one point in favor out outboard rudders is the strength & simplicity of this configuration. Or a keel hung rudder.... though these rudder..by design tend not to be "balanced" rudders when the leading edge of the rudder is inline with the rudder shaft.... .... I could think of many more siginificant issues that would nix a purchase of a boat than a rudder rebuild. If that was the only thing with an otherwise perfect (for you) boat, sure. Yard cost could range anywhere from $900-3,000 Again, IMHO is you can't do a job like this yourself you should be considering buying the boat. If you don't have the knowledge, at the vey least, how will you know if the boatyard does it *right*? That can be said in virtually every situation and realm of anything just not boats... A wild guess is that 80% of boat owners dont know how to do this or 80% of any other work that may be required to be done, yet they own boats. Probably why much maintanence is to attended to, amongest other practical reasons. - standing rigging replacement Standing rigging has little to do with the designer ??? In terms of it replacement, sure designers initially determine the original config. and I have yet to see anyone change that (from an original design aspect). Very rarely would the design of the standing rigging be changed on a production boat. Most riggers want the old rigging to duplicate the new rigging. Who do you think specifies the type, size, placement, etc etc? Originally the designer, but that has nothing to do with the reason per say of the replacement when replaced, Or the original design as being the reason for the replacement. What I had in mind is the excessively salty type who brags about "upgrading" his standing rigging to the next larger size, because it so macho to brag about sailing in high winds. The issue here is that 1- rigging is sized to the boat's righting moment regadless of wind strength and 2- heavier rigging will dregarde the boats performance and 3- because of the difficulty in getting the tensions correct, may actually weaken the overall rig & bring down the mast. The Guy who circumnavigated on a Cal 25 did upgrade the standing rigging to 1/4" and did extensive mods... Yes there are downsides to upgrading the standing rigging to a larger size, one increment in size would not make a difference, negatively and probably be more of a positive depending on its use. Unless one has reason to believe that either the designer didn't know what he doing, or the builder skimped, one should only replace standing rigging with the same type & size. Generally, yes, thats what pro riggers do. Although one increment increase has no negative effect other than cost. But it is sort of like determining what the thickness of the glass layup should be,a definate cost determinate. Standard "practical rule" for anchors is what ever the size is recommended go up one size. How long should standing rigging last, at what point should you consider its replacement? ... One guy in New Zeland actully uses galvinized standing rigging, A lot of people here use galvanized, too. Here? Where? I have personally have not seen any on a standard production boat retro fitted with galvanized. But I do see the postive aspect of its use. I would rather replace it more often at that cost than figure the SS rigging will last as long as the rest of the boat. ... Now that may seem stupid, but: 1 the metal is suppose to be stronger (Brian Toss) ??? If the wire itself is slightly stronger, it's also less flexible and the connections are correspondingly weaker. Not necessarly...rod rigging isnt meant to necessarly be flexible 2 it will show signs of failure before actual failure -cheaper to replace Much much cheaper... the only real advantage IMHO. Many failure in the rigging actually are the clevis pins, tangs and couplings not the actual wire itself. Exactly. - running rigging replacement Yep. You'll need to replace running rigging every so often anyway. Don't sweat it, just tot up the projected expense and subtract from your offer. Yep. Cost estimate? guess$300-700 26ft'er depending on block replacement Shucks I've spent well more than that on a 19 footer... a racing boat, to be sure... Thats for a standard 26 production boat cruiser depending... - bottom paint Ditto above, except that you won't get far marking off the price for this. It's a regular maintenance item. If it is only anti-fouling yes. If it is osmosis repair - different story. Blisters are not covered under "bottom paint." Blister repair can be anything from minor annoyance to major structural nightmare. I like the concept of outboards on sailboats. I do too, up to a certain size. Beyond 26' it can be a problem both in mass of the boat & pitching out the prop. But an outboard makes the boat marvelously maneuveralbe (provided you can reach it handily to swivel it around). Yes. As far as I am concerned a saildrive unit is essentially an outboard with more negatives. And there are enough boats over 26ft that have them. And Outboards come in 15", 20" and 25". And outboard on a transom over 26 is NG but in a lazarette still my pref. even over 26ft ... That are like a saildrive, but not an actual saildrive but actually an outboard in a lazerette. Every arrangement I've ever seen like this was a total PITA. Of course, better arrangements may exist. That is my opinion with the outboard of the transom unless the transom has a "U" provision (cutout) for the outboard. ... Repair, replacement is a lesser cost with an OB. Very true, but then risk of theivery or submergence or damage is higher; reliability is often lower too. Point for the lazerrete config..... - battery replacement Why? Again, not a big deal... get a smart charger if the boat doesn't have one, and then go to a farm supply store for some truck/tractor batteries. Not much money or hassle here. If you want or need a 400aHr battery set probably over $400 Not if you know where to shop. Besides, the battery itself is rarely the problem with "dead batteries." What's the point in buying new batteries if the wiring & charging are going to kill it again in short order? Average working life of a sail? Depends very much on the sail & usage. The hardest things for a sail to endure are flogging or flapping, and UV exposure. A sail that is left hoisted to slap around freely will be tatters in a few days. A sail that is left uncovered... especially in the harsh Southern sun... will be rotten in a few months if not weeks. Personally, I am rather spoiled by having had very nice racing sails. I hate seeing baggy blown out rags that kill the boat's pointing, give excessive & erratic helm, and heel it way over. Sails that get regular use should probably be replaced in 3 ~ 5 years. Yes they cost more than you think. A new maint for a 26ft $1,100 plus The most signicant would be deck moisture or delamination. On a older 26 ft sailing crusier that needed a recore what would you figure as a price of this repair and how much would or should it effect the purchase price? Free, or maybe they should pay you to take it off their hands. Probably.....but it depends how extensive it is and if you like working with fiberglass.... Does anybody really *like* working with fiberglass? I'm pretty good at it myself (pardon a little bragging) but it is out of necessity, not because I like it. I'd rather do wood work (which I'm not very good at) or mechanical work any day. ....this issue (delamination or structural repair) would qulaify as the ultimate project boat. Problably one of the most siginificant deal nixer there is. But some can be expected on any 20 year boat Depends very much on the boat & it's care. IMHO many many boats will not need significant fiberglass work... or structural work... in 40+ years much less 20. Even if the damage to the deck is limited to points of hardware attachment, that is fairly significant, although not compared to most of the deck replacement. There probably isnt a single boat that does not have core issues to some degree. ... and it seems (from my research) many are willing to accept some degree of this issue. Sure. Some people bought AMC Gremlins, too ;) I guess it a decision between repairing or sailing and which you enjoy more. And what your budget will allow. Many people badly underestimate the cost of repairs & upgrades needed by a boat they're considering buying. Seems that when I figure the "needs" the final cost is more than the boat is worth....pretty standard. Boating is a pleasure that is like a consumable, problem is that many dont see it that way when they sell it. Like I refered to the URL for boat buying....says it all. How would you determine what the actual worth of the boat is? By figuring how badly you want it... one way to compare is to look at what else is on the market. Hummm...The way I see it is for the age of a boat in bristol condition what would it be worth. But that depends on the buyer, too. For example, I know a man who not only paid an already high asking price, but also paid the owner/seller handsomely to do some small upgrades & deliver the boat. This buyer had a lot of money, was looking for a particular boat in great shape (it was a nostalgia thing) and didn't have the time himself. He wanted to recapture some happy memories of sailing and had the budget to indulge himself. Later he decided it was too expensive, sold the boat at a big loss, and now crews for other people when he has time to sail. Not a common situation.... In my case, I have always bought bargain-basement boats for very cheap (ie within my budget) and fixed them up myself. But it's really sailing... both racing & cruising... with my family that I enjoy most. It's the means to an end. The economic advantage doesnt always outweight the practical downside, mileage will vary....Boat repair can be a hobby to a degree. ... A boat is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Perceived condition is subjective in many instances. You have gained much wisdom ;) Much so called "wisdom" is perception also:}} "Genius is limited and stupidity is unlimited" Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Bushings, bearings, tomatoes, tom-ah-tows... the question is what does
the boat you want have, and what shape are they in. Many boats have rather fancy double-race needle bearings for the lower rudder post "bushing." The loads here can be tremendous when sailing hard. Michael wrote: Think "balanced" vs "unbalanced" rudders....power steering vs manual. The balance area of a rudder reduces the perceived load on the helm, but does *not* reduce the load on the rudder post. I am not aware of any production boat that was built with the bearings you suggest. I though such beasts do exist for rudders.. Probably not in the 30' size range. Fancy racing boats have top-notch rudder post bearings, and of course bigger boats have to have bearings appropriate to the load... if they're well designed of course... It's a worthwhile upgrade to a boat that will spend a lot of time sailing hard on autopilot. I doubt that anyone has ever purchased a boat having everthing they want - unless it is custom built and designed for them. Even then, you just can't get everything. I think there's a law. Again, IMHO is you can't do a job like this yourself you should be considering buying the boat. If you don't have the knowledge, at the vey least, how will you know if the boatyard does it *right*? That can be said in virtually every situation and realm of anything just not boats... A wild guess is that 80% of boat owners dont know how to do this or 80% of any other work that may be required to be done, yet they own boats. IMHO that's a wild overestimate. Most boat owners I know (mostly mid-size sailboats) know how to do a wide variety of technical things and all basic maintenance. The stuff that gets done by hired help is either really demanding & technical, perhaps requiring special tools... like testing injectors or timing injector pumps... or really tedious & awfule, like sanding off old bottom paint. Standing rigging has little to do with the designer ??? In terms of it replacement, sure designers initially determine the original config. and I have yet to see anyone change that (from an original design aspect). I have. In a very few cases did it turn out to be a wise move. ... Very rarely would the design of the standing rigging be changed on a production boat. Depends on who is doing what. A a relatively common change is adding an inner stay for a staysail. What I had in mind is the excessively salty type who brags about "upgrading" his standing rigging to the next larger size, because it so macho to brag about sailing in high winds. The issue here is that 1- rigging is sized to the boat's righting moment regadless of wind strength and 2- heavier rigging will dregarde the boats performance and 3- because of the difficulty in getting the tensions correct, may actually weaken the overall rig & bring down the mast. The Guy who circumnavigated on a Cal 25 did upgrade the standing rigging to 1/4" and did extensive mods... Yep, Dave Martin. He stayed in Oriental, NC for quite a while. Some of what he did made good sense... putting on larger standing rigging did not. In fact (as I said) from an engineering standpoint it can be harmful. Where does all the added stress from this stronger rigging go? It doesn't disappear! Yes there are downsides to upgrading the standing rigging to a larger size, one increment in size would not make a difference Yes, it would. There would be a difference in weight aloft, in windage, in stress generated from the additional tension needed to keep that heavier gage rigging from shock loading, and in any event (as I said) the standing rigging loads are determined by the boat's righting moment. The strongest possible wind will not impose any more strain on it. However the heavier gage will require greater tension and will have less elasticity and will probably overstress the chainplates and will definitely place a greater compression load on the mast. I have never yet heard of anybody putting on a thicker mast because they want a tougher more seaworthy boat. In short, putting on heavier standing rig is good *only* if it was undersized originally. In any other possible case, it is detrimental to the boat's performance and seaworthiness. Period. How long should standing rigging last, at what point should you consider its replacement? Depends on type & service. The thing that really kills standing rigging is crevice corrosion in the swaged terminals. That's by far the most common point for failure. Another common one is roller furlers unlaying the forestay cable. After that would probably be fatigue from improperly toggled turnbuckles. I have also seen a rig come down when the jib sheet pulled out the cotter rings from the clevis pins. ... One guy in New Zeland actully uses galvinized standing rigging, A lot of people here use galvanized, too. Here? Where? I'm on the middle US East Coast. I have personally have not seen any on a standard production boat retro fitted with galvanized. I have. Not all that common, but maybe there's a higher percentage of people that aren't embarassed to shop at the farm & truck supply around here. .... But I do see the postive aspect of its use. I would rather replace it more often at that cost than figure the SS rigging will last as long as the rest of the boat. Get Sta-Loks. You'll never need to replace anything but the very inexpensive cones. If the wire itself is slightly stronger, it's also less flexible and the connections are correspondingly weaker. Not necessarly...rod rigging isnt meant to necessarly be flexible Yep, that's a different can o'worms. I don't have much experience with rod rigging... in fact none at all with replacing it, specifically... but it seems to be much longer lived due to the lack of swaged terminals... and anyway not very many 30' and under production boats have rod rigging, do they? As far as I am concerned a saildrive unit is essentially an outboard with more negatives. Like what? The newer saildrives are great. Less trouble, more efficient, and neater installation, than a conventional inboard.... you can put both the engine weight and the prop in more advantageous locations. The advantages of an outboard are 1- cost 2- winter storage in your closet 3- service by removing it to the shop 4- maneuverability (*if* the installation is such that the helmsman can swivel it) Pretty much everything else about them is a negative. Fuel economy & heavy weather performance are terrible. Very true, but then risk of theivery or submergence or damage is higher; reliability is often lower too. Point for the lazerrete config..... Putting the OB in a lazarette might reduce the chance of theivery, but it increases the chance of flooding... those wells get a surge up in them at every wave, your engine could go under water 500 times and you wouldn't see it. Many of the also amplify noise, and choke the engine. They keep that traditional counter stern looking sweet, though. That's been my experience with a dozen or so boats equipped with outboards in wells. YMMV In my case, I have always bought bargain-basement boats for very cheap (ie within my budget) and fixed them up myself. But it's really sailing... both racing & cruising... with my family that I enjoy most. It's the means to an end. The economic advantage doesnt always outweight the practical downside, mileage will vary....Boat repair can be a hobby to a degree. And it also gives you a boat that you know all about, and can fix, and can rely on. Much so called "wisdom" is perception also:}} "Genius is limited and stupidity is unlimited" That's an excellent quote. One of my favorites is "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt" --Bertrand Russell Fresh Breezes-- Doug King |
On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 23:12:53 -0400, DSK wrote:
Michael wrote: Think "balanced" vs "unbalanced" rudders....power steering vs manual. The balance area of a rudder reduces the perceived load on the helm, but does *not* reduce the load on the rudder post. /// Fresh Breezes-- Doug King Hmmm...seems to me that the steering torque on a rudder can be reduced, zeroed or reversed - depending on the balance area fraction selected. The rule of thumb, I seem to recall is 25% area forward for minimal torque - more than that and the torque is reversed, giving unpleasant positive feedback effect. Brian Whatcott Altus, OK |
On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 23:12:53 -0400, DSK wrote:
(snip) Michael wrote: Think "balanced" vs "unbalanced" rudders....power steering vs manual. The balance area of a rudder reduces the perceived load on the helm, but does *not* reduce the load on the rudder post. I think it would be more accurate to say that the force by the helmsman requires less physical effort with a balanced rudder. I can not think of anything that would reduce the load on a rudder post.... I am not aware of any production boat that was built with the bearings you suggest. I though such beasts do exist for rudders.. Probably not in the 30' size range. Fancy racing boats have top-notch rudder post bearings, and of course bigger boats have to have bearings appropriate to the load... if they're well designed of course... It's a worthwhile upgrade to a boat that will spend a lot of time sailing hard on autopilot. Humm.... I think I would rather have a bushing, I dont think a bearing in a water environment would last or be as reliable as a bushing... A wild guess is that 80% of boat owners dont know how to do this or 80% of any other work that may be required to be done, yet they own boats. IMHO that's a wild overestimate. Most boat owners I know (mostly mid-size sailboats) know how to do a wide variety of technical things and all basic maintenance. The stuff that gets done by hired help is either really demanding & technical, perhaps requiring special tools... like testing injectors or timing injector pumps... or really tedious & awfule, like sanding off old bottom paint. Standing rigging has little to do with the designer In terms of it replacement, sure designers initially determine the original config. and I have yet to see anyone change that (from an original design aspect). I have. In a very few cases did it turn out to be a wise move. ... Very rarely would the design of the standing rigging be changed on a production boat. Depends on who is doing what. A a relatively common change is adding an inner stay for a staysail. Ya but thats not a mod like separating two shrouds from a single chain plate, or mounting the chain plate on the outboard of the hull, etc.... a inner stay isnt a mod of the existing rig but an addition to it What I had in mind is the excessively salty type who brags about "upgrading" his standing rigging to the next larger size, because it so macho to brag about sailing in high winds. The issue here is that 1- rigging is sized to the boat's righting moment regadless of wind strength and 2- heavier rigging will dregarde the boats performance and 3- because of the difficulty in getting the tensions correct, may actually weaken the overall rig & bring down the mast. Yep, Dave Martin. He stayed in Oriental, NC for quite a while. Some of what he did made good sense... putting on larger standing rigging did not. In fact (as I said) from an engineering standpoint it can be harmful. Where does all the added stress from this stronger rigging go? It doesn't disappear! Yes there are downsides to upgrading the standing rigging to a larger size, one increment in size would not make a difference Yes, it would. There would be a difference in weight aloft, in windage, in stress generated from the additional tension needed to keep that heavier gage rigging from shock loading, and in any event (as I said) the standing rigging loads are determined by the boat's righting moment. The strongest possible wind will not impose any more strain on it. However the heavier gage will require greater tension and will have less elasticity and will probably overstress the chainplates and will definitely place a greater compression load on the mast. I dont necessarly disagree with you but from all those who have upgraded one size I have never heard any issue as a result from the end user or a rigger.... I have never yet heard of anybody putting on a thicker mast because they want a tougher more seaworthy boat. In short, putting on heavier standing rig is good *only* if it was undersized originally. In any other possible case, it is detrimental to the boat's performance and seaworthiness. Period. .... But I do see the postive aspect of its use. I would rather replace it more often at that cost than figure the SS rigging will last as long as the rest of the boat. Get Sta-Loks. You'll never need to replace anything but the very inexpensive cones. Yes they are better than the Norseman ones from the test results I have read. As far as I am concerned a saildrive unit is essentially an outboard with more negatives. Like what? The newer saildrives are great. Less trouble, more efficient, and neater installation, than a conventional inboard.... you can put both the engine weight and the prop in more advantageous locations. For the lower unit the boat must be dry docked to service it, where a OB on a laz maybe pulled at any time. COST... Is a saildrive generally prefered over a conventional IB? I dont think so, why is that? Multihulls have saildrives or OB's I would rather have the OB's check out this excellent pictoral of a OB in a laz as well as general project boat: http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/s...9&page=1&pp=15 you should go through all 15 pages The advantages of an outboard are 1- cost 2- winter storage in your closet 3- service by removing it to the shop 4- maneuverability (*if* the installation is such that the helmsman can swivel it) Pretty much everything else about them is a negative. Fuel economy & heavy weather performance are terrible. Very true, but then risk of theivery or submergence or damage is higher; reliability is often lower too. Point for the lazerrete config..... Putting the OB in a lazarette might reduce the chance of theivery, but it increases the chance of flooding... those wells get a surge up in them at every wave, your engine could go under water 500 times and you wouldn't see it. Many of the also amplify noise, and choke the engine. They keep that traditional counter stern looking sweet, though. That's been my experience with a dozen or so boats equipped with outboards in wells. YMMV In my case, I have always bought bargain-basement boats for very cheap (ie within my budget) and fixed them up myself. But it's really sailing... both racing & cruising... with my family that I enjoy most. It's the means to an end. The economic advantage doesnt always outweight the practical downside, mileage will vary....Boat repair can be a hobby to a degree. And it also gives you a boat that you know all about, and can fix, and can rely on. Yes, if you have got the time and passion http://www.bumfuzzle.com/logs11-04.htm You may be interested in the issues with a 2 year old cat on a circumnaviation by novice sailors. http://www.bumfuzzle.com/ Much so called "wisdom" is perception also:}} "Genius is limited and stupidity is unlimited" That's an excellent quote. One of my favorites is "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt" --Bertrand Russell Fresh Breezes-- Doug King |
On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 03:24:46 GMT, Brian Whatcott
wrote: On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 23:12:53 -0400, DSK wrote: Michael wrote: Think "balanced" vs "unbalanced" rudders....power steering vs manual. The balance area of a rudder reduces the perceived load on the helm, but does *not* reduce the load on the rudder post. /// Fresh Breezes-- Doug King Hmmm...seems to me that the steering torque on a rudder can be reduced, zeroed or reversed - depending on the balance area fraction selected. The rule of thumb, I seem to recall is 25% area forward for minimal torque - more than that and the torque is reversed, giving unpleasant positive feedback effect. Brian Whatcott Altus, OK On second thought does a balanced rudder put less force on the rudder post or just on the tiller? Wild guess, probably both? |
On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 23:12:53 -0400, DSK wrote:
snip As far as I am concerned a saildrive unit is essentially an outboard with more negatives. Like what? The newer saildrives are great. Less trouble, more efficient, and neater installation, than a conventional inboard.... you can put both the engine weight and the prop in more advantageous locations. The advantages of an outboard are 1- cost 2- winter storage in your closet 3- service by removing it to the shop 4- maneuverability (*if* the installation is such that the helmsman can swivel it) Saildrive issues link: http://www.cruisersforum.com/showthr... threadid=1666 |
The balance area of a rudder reduces the perceived load on the helm, but
does *not* reduce the load on the rudder post. Michael wrote: I think it would be more accurate to say that the force by the helmsman requires less physical effort with a balanced rudder. Yes, that's what I was trying to say. I can not think of anything that would reduce the load on a rudder post.... Going very slowly! I am not aware of any production boat that was built with the bearings you suggest. I though such beasts do exist for rudders.. Probably not in the 30' size range. Fancy racing boats have top-notch rudder post bearings, and of course bigger boats have to have bearings appropriate to the load... if they're well designed of course... It's a worthwhile upgrade to a boat that will spend a lot of time sailing hard on autopilot. Humm.... I think I would rather have a bushing, I dont think a bearing in a water environment would last or be as reliable as a bushing... ??? There's this new hi-tech miracle product called "grease." Of course it's assumed that the bearing will get some maintenance, and will eventually have to be replaced. In well-designed boats this is provided for. Actually modern miracle hi-tech stuff has made it very easy to re-work rudder post bearings, or bushings if you prefer. After all a bushing in this case is the same thing as a bearing. It's not even necessary to pull the rudder & post out, just polish & wax it then pour in the miracle goop. As far as I am concerned a saildrive unit is essentially an outboard with more negatives. Like what? The newer saildrives are great. Less trouble, more efficient, and neater installation, than a conventional inboard.... you can put both the engine weight and the prop in more advantageous locations. For the lower unit the boat must be dry docked to service it, So? That's true of any inboard. With a conventional drive you have a cutlass bearing which can't be serviced unless the boat is pulled. Again, it's assumed that these things are going to get proper attention during the life of the boat. ... where a OB on a laz maybe pulled at any time. COST... And if you get a trailerable boat, you can haul it out even cheaper, then take it home with you. Very inexpensive (if you already have a place to keep it, that is). Is a saildrive generally prefered over a conventional IB? I dont think so, why is that? Depends on who you're talking to. The saildrive has a lot of advantages but many people still don't like them. It's a matter of personal taste to some degree. check out this excellent pictoral of a OB in a laz as well as general project boat: http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/s...9&page=1&pp=15 I think this guy is making a few mistakes. For example, removing the shelves below the V-berth... those were almost certainly there as structural members. The cockpit drains look nice though. It's funny you should point to a Pearson Ariel as an example of how wonderful OB wells are. I sailed on one of these for years (back when they were much newer than they are now) and it is one of the boats that formed my current opinion (generally unfavorable) of OB wells. It's not the worst of the bunch, though. Thanks for the links, interesting reading & pictures. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
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On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 03:24:46 GMT, Brian Whatcott
wrote: On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 23:12:53 -0400, DSK wrote: Michael wrote: Think "balanced" vs "unbalanced" rudders....power steering vs manual. The balance area of a rudder reduces the perceived load on the helm, but does *not* reduce the load on the rudder post. /// Fresh Breezes-- Doug King Hmmm...seems to me that the steering torque on a rudder can be reduced, zeroed or reversed - depending on the balance area fraction selected. The rule of thumb, I seem to recall is 25% area forward for minimal torque - more than that and the torque is reversed, giving unpleasant positive feedback effect. Sure, but the topic was rudder bearings. They don't get loade by torque, but by radial loads from lift generated by the rudder. Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a "Nuke the gay whales for Jesus" -- anon T-shirt |
On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 12:02:39 -0400, Rodney Myrvaagnes
wrote: On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 03:24:46 GMT, Brian Whatcott wrote: On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 23:12:53 -0400, DSK wrote: Michael wrote: Think "balanced" vs "unbalanced" rudders....power steering vs manual. The balance area of a rudder reduces the perceived load on the helm, but does *not* reduce the load on the rudder post. /// Fresh Breezes-- Doug King Hmmm...seems to me that the steering torque on a rudder can be reduced, zeroed or reversed - depending on the balance area fraction selected. The rule of thumb, I seem to recall is 25% area forward for minimal torque - more than that and the torque is reversed, giving unpleasant positive feedback effect. Sure, but the topic was rudder bearings. They don't get loade by torque, but by radial loads from lift generated by the rudder. Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a Yes, you're right of course. And this was Doug's point, I think. Brian W Altus, OK |
On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 09:42:20 -0500, DSK wrote:
Michael wrote: Boat Buying Sailboat I have been doing research on boat purchasing. Working on a very obscure Ph.D thesis? Maybe due diligents? Certainly far from obscure It has been suggested that the NADA values of boats are relative to the asking price and not the actual selling price. Don't think so, AFAIK it's based on the reported sale prices. Many of the boats I have seen lack any detailing. Namely, it can be seen by how clean the heads floor is. Almost every single boat for sale will have been lacking in preventative maintenance. It's the nature of the beast... but you want to look very carefully at potential problems to avoid the nightmares that are *definitely* out there. Most boats at the 20 year mark probably need: - rudder rebuild Why? Bearing rebuild, maybe. If I suspected that a boat needed to have the rudder itself rebuilt, I'd pass... even if it was free... unless the boat had some really really special characteristics. Many actually use bushings, although I believe that bearings also exist. Rudders probably get the most wear of any part of the boat even when docked. Keel hung rudders have long been seen as a "blue water" attribute, like full keels and heavy displacement. But they are "unbalanced" require more effort, And dont lend themselfs to steering in reverse well. A spade rudder is a considerably more of a rebuild issue than any other style. I could think of many more siginificant issues that would nix a purchase of a boat than a rudder rebuild. Yard cost could range anywhere from $900-3,000 - standing rigging replacement Again, why? Careful inspection... some boats will need standing rigging replaced, but I don't believe in simply "changing out" stuff that's perfectly good. One often hears about people replacing & up-sizing their standing rigging... this is downright stupid, unless one believes that the boat designer was a moron... in which case one should buy a different boat! Standing rigging has little to do with the designer and the reason to replace it. One guy in New Zeland actually uses galvinized standing rigging, that is in salt water, of course. Now that may seem stupid, but: 1 the metal is suppose to be stronger (Brian Toss) 2 it will show signs of failure before actual failure -cheaper to replace 3 inorder to keep it in good condition requires a heck of a lot of maintenance with coatings Many failure in the rigging actually are the clevis pins, tangs and couplings not the actual wire itself. 26ft = $1,200 stainless - running rigging replacement Yep. You'll need to replace running rigging every so often anyway. Don't sweat it, just tot up the projected expense and subtract from your offer. Yep. Cost estimate? guess$300-700 26ft'er depending on block replacement - bottom paint Ditto above, except that you won't get far marking off the price for this. It's a regular maintenance item. If it is only anti-fouling yes. If it is osmosis repair - different story. This is an issue that usually nixes a boat purchase in many instances. - motor maintenance or replacement If the motor is that bad, look for a different boat. If it is an inboard, ya look for a different boat as replacement costs is $3,000-6,000 min. I like the concept of outboards on sailboats. That are like a saildrive, but not an actual saildrive but actually an outboard in a lazerette. Repair, replacement is a lesser cost with an OB. - battery replacement Why? Again, not a big deal... get a smart charger if the boat doesn't have one, and then go to a farm supply store for some truck/tractor batteries. Not much money or hassle here. If you want or need a 400aHr battery set probably over $400 many cruisers spend $1,200 for more amp hours - many have original sails See above, same as running rigging. OTOH if a boat has 'original sails' then it probably has not had other items replaced, maintained, or cared for, and may indicate a boat best left alone. Sails are more expensive that you'd believe. Average working life of a sail? Yes they cost more than you think. A new maint for a 26ft $1,100 plus - cushion replacement and uphostering See above under "running rigging." I have seen costs of over $1,000 for this...cloth and foam work - port lights ?? The most signicant would be deck moisture or delamination. On a older 26 ft sailing crusier that needed a recore what would you figure as a price of this repair and how much would or should it effect the purchase price? Free, or maybe they should pay you to take it off their hands. Probably.....but it depends how extensive it is and if you like working with fiberglass....this issue would qualify as the ultimate project boat. Problably one of the most siginificant deal nixer there is. But some can be expected on any 20 year boat, and it seems (from my research) many are willing to accept some degree of this issue. Around the stanchions or hardware not too bad but full decks, forget it. How would you figure what the value of a boat was given the above or combination thereof? Would the cost be: -what it would cost to have a third party do the work like the Yard If you're not willing & able to do the work yourself, don't get a boat. Seriously. Even a relatively small boat with some combination of the above problems will keep you in penury to the end of your days, and you'll spend far far more than the boat will ever conceivably be worth. I guess it a decision between repairing or sailing and which you enjoy more. Many that bought boats didnt consider them "project boats" but after 1- 1 1/2 years latter, that what they have become. Yes many spend more than the boat will ever be worth like the Hr28 some guy suggest in this thread. And I think that when it come time for them to sell the boat they dont price it realistically. Based on boats generally that Hr28, although it seems to have nice ammenties, still the unseen price is probably 1/3 of the asking at best on a good day. If it was a triton in bristol condition with a new inboard, the current asking price might be close to being realistic. The guy selling it just isnt realistic or not really interested in selling it, he should read the info at the URL provided. The URL provided for the boat buying process is par excelances... -would you figure what the cost of the parts are and not consider the value of the work that you would do yourself. Yes... although my own work is priceless, it's time spent on the boat and thus is (mostly) recreation in itself. I wouldnt necessarly consider fiberglass, bottom jobs recreation....many but not all would rather have purchased a boat requiring less work in hindsight....my research shows... Its sort of the girl friend time VS "quality time" thing How would you determine what the actual worth of the boat is? By figuring how badly you want it... one way to compare is to look at what else is on the market. Hummm...The way I see it is for the age of a boat in bristol condition what would it be worth. Then reduce that by all the calculated hard costs (parts) not including your labour, but including some specilized labour (ie engine rebuilding, machining work, etc) then figure the price. A boat is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Perceived and even actual condition is subjective in many instances. As a percentage, is there a standard that you would use to make an offer less than asking price? If the boat is cherry & is just what you want, 10% less. If there are 'issues' then it's roll yer own. A boat that's been on the market for a long time may change hands for a tiny fraction of the original ask price. Others simply get left for the boatyard to recycle. Likely.... If you get a remarkable deal, go with it. The "deal of a lifetime" comes along about once a week. Not so sure about that...survey say many look for at least 6 months the average about 1 1/2 years before buying... prodigal1 wrote: alright that's enough ;-) quite ****ing around you want to buy a great old boat, buy this http://www.clic.net/~dcooper/hinterh...a%20vendre.htm boat is located just outside Windsor, Ontario on the Detroit River no relation to seller Seems like a nice boat, but isn't the price a bit steep? Not a serious seller.... Ryk wrote: Why pick that one over this ODay 28 on Martha's Vineyard? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...8730 118&rd=1 There are incredible deals out there on boats this size because people are mostly after something bigger and/or newer. You're kidding, right? It's true that the Hinterhoeller is a much nicer & better built boat, but is it really 3 1/2 X nicer? Consider relative costs. OTOH the HR-28 might take less updating than the O'Day, and will certainly fetch a higher price when you eventually sell it. I've seen the case made that an older higher priced higher quality boat is actually less expensive to own in the long run. Fresh water VS sal****er boats..... The HR28 a nice boat and design of its time although I dont like the ballast to weight ratio, for an older boat a Triton or an Alberg would be preferable to me. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Michael wrote: I am not aware of any production boat that was built with the bearings you suggest. This all sounds very fascinating. I wish I had time to acquire this information formally, but that, alas, is not within my ability. The project I am working on demands so much of my time. I do occasionallly wonder if acquisition of formal certifications in such a field might make my opinion a little more respectable. but that is alli can muster right now, an anecdotal opinion that cannot be backed up otherwise. I though such beasts do exist for rudders.. o, probably only one of dozens. I doubt that anyone has ever purchased a boat having everthing they want - unless it is custom built and designed for them. Buying a boat for most of us is a compromise...overall you may like the boat and many aspects of it. For example a lead vs cast iron keel. Or a spade rudder verses transom rudder, etc, etc..... BTW one point in favor out outboard rudders is the strength & simplicity of this configuration. Or a keel hung rudder.... thanks for the info. If I have time and inclination, I will continue researching what you have provided. mk5000 "THe happy couple was in full public display of their affection, lovingly kissing in their seats for a full ten minutes before the curtain went up"--a representative |
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