Our new boat.
 

We closed on the boat that sparked the Lake Erie posts yesterday. I've set
up a section on my web site about the search and purchase for family and
friends. If anyone here is interested:

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Boat.htm

--

Roger Long

Roger Long wrote:
We closed on the boat that sparked the Lake Erie posts yesterday.

Congrats!

... I've set
up a section on my web site about the search and purchase for family and
friends.

Ditch the watery looking background. Makes the website hard to read.

... If anyone here is interested:

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Boat.htm


Hmm... looks a lot like a Morgan of slightly older vintage... bound to
be a nice boat!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 00:40:52 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

We closed on the boat that sparked the Lake Erie posts yesterday. I've set
up a section on my web site about the search and purchase for family and
friends. If anyone here is interested:

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Boat.htm

Very interesting tale. I am checking out (early stages) steel ketches
and cutters in the 38-45 foot range for a proposed circumnavigation in
4 years or so. There are a surprising number of ocean-ready metal
boats on the Great Lakes (you can't be bothered by hard chines, tho')
that have never seen salt OR are 95% finished by craftsmen
owner/builders who've died or swallowed the anchor. Lots of crap, lots
of absolute bargains, and little corrosion if done right. Also, you
can factor in that with a six-month sailing season on the Lakes, these
boats are half as worn as, say, the average Florida liveaboard.

The simple fact is that a boat owned by an indifferent owner can go to
hell in five years of hard use; a 40 year old "classic plastic" can be
made "better than factory" if a regular schedule of repair and
upgrades by a motivated and "boat-proud" owner is established. And
none of it need cut into your sailing time.

So I agree that your logic was flawless and I wish you well with what
looks like a competant coastal cruiser. With an old boat, though, you
will have to keep on top of deck core rot, bedding issues and all that
salt air finding metal coated "good enough for Michigan" but not good
enough for the Atlantic.

R.

I feel even better now that I've been down to the waterfront to get to know
my local Yamaha mechanic. I said, "2QM20" and he crossed is finger in the
air and said, "You're going to need a new engine. Those are all dying right
about now."

I told him the boat was from the Great Lakes and he said, "Oh, no problem.
In that case, it's a great engine and should be almost as good as new. You
should get 15 more years out of it easy."

BTW I'm a former sailing yacht and tall ship designer still designing
commercial power boats. Feel free to pick my brains about any boats you are
looking at.

--

Roger Long

Roger Long wrote:
I feel even better now that I've been down to the waterfront to get to know
my local Yamaha mechanic. I said, "2QM20" and he crossed is finger in the
air and said, "You're going to need a new engine. Those are all dying right
about now."

I told him the boat was from the Great Lakes and he said, "Oh, no problem.
In that case, it's a great engine and should be almost as good as new. You
should get 15 more years out of it easy."

BTW I'm a former sailing yacht and tall ship designer still designing
commercial power boats. Feel free to pick my brains about any boats you are
looking at.

Is that salt water cooled (i.e. no heat exchanger?)

Yes. I actually went in to ask about converting it to either keel cooling
or heat exchanger. They said not to bother under the circumstances. Since
that was turning down a potential grand of labor, I think they were probably
telling me the truth as they see it.

Nice thing about raw water and wet exhaust is that there is only one pump.
If something interrupts the water flow, you are alerted by the smoke and
smell of burning rubber hose before you overheat and ruin your engine:)

--

Roger Long



"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
Roger Long wrote:
I feel even better now that I've been down to the waterfront to get to
know my local Yamaha mechanic. I said, "2QM20" and he crossed is finger
in the air and said, "You're going to need a new engine. Those are all
dying right about now."

I told him the boat was from the Great Lakes and he said, "Oh, no
problem. In that case, it's a great engine and should be almost as good
as new. You should get 15 more years out of it easy."

BTW I'm a former sailing yacht and tall ship designer still designing
commercial power boats. Feel free to pick my brains about any boats you
are looking at.

Is that salt water cooled (i.e. no heat exchanger?)

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 18:53:34 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:


I told him the boat was from the Great Lakes and he said, "Oh, no problem.
In that case, it's a great engine and should be almost as good as new. You
should get 15 more years out of it easy."

That's about right, and a very good argument for freshwater cooling
via an exchanger. Even in lake water, it can't hurt to run clean
coolant instead of whatever you happen to be sailing in, which can
have goo, poo and/or mussels in it.

BTW I'm a former sailing yacht and tall ship designer still designing
commercial power boats. Feel free to pick my brains about any boats you are
looking at.

Thanks..as time progresses I'll need all the other points of view I
can handle! I can't always count on guys like Skip Gundlach being
online G.

A good friend is debating parting with his Goderich (Huromic) 41 (Bob
Wallstrom design that looks a lot like what his then-partner Ted
Brewer was designing). I've also liked the Kanter 45 Atlantic (which
is a like a stretch version of the Goderich), and I've personally
checked out a Subrero-Prince 40, a 1980 French boat that showed,
sadly, a lot of sub-deck rust. Too bad, as it was a CC pilothouse
cutter-ketch, which I think when combined with a NACA foil and
skeg-hung rudder, is just about ideal for safe world cruising with
plenty of stowage and yet not hopeless at pointing.

Of course if I win a lottery, I'd love to get a Brewer Alaska 43 (old
school!), a Shearwater 45 or an Amel SuperMaru...sigh...so I haven't
ruled out fibreglass! G

R.

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 19:30:41 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:


Nice thing about raw water and wet exhaust is that there is only one pump.
If something interrupts the water flow, you are alerted by the smoke and
smell of burning rubber hose before you overheat and ruin your engine:)

Don't count on that, as I wrecked a raw water Atomic 4 back when I was
a newbie by forgetting to open the raw water seacock. The impeller
will shred rapidly, clogging your block, which is to be avoided. My
solution was two-fold: put the engine key on a carbiner and hang on
the seacock handle (I keep it closed because I've seen two boat sink
at dock from hose failure). The other method is to install a hot-water
alarm that goes off if the manifold water gets above a certain point.
Same idea as a low-pressure oil circuit: a screeching BEEP will make
you switch off the engine first, and figure out what's died on you.

Oh, yeah, I watch my dials and stick my head over the transom now a
LOT more. Expensive and time-consuming mistake, but I was too new then
to avoid it.

R.

Checklists.

As a pilot, I deal all the time with mistakes that are easier to make than
that and can ruin your butt as well as your engine.

I'm going to goggle temperature alarms right now though. The nice thing
about a boat is that you can just buy something like that and install it.
FAA paperwork makes it almost impossible to add any kind of safety device to
an airplane that wasn't included when it was built.

--

Roger Long



"rhys" wrote in message
...


On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 19:30:41 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:


Nice thing about raw water and wet exhaust is that there is only one pump.
If something interrupts the water flow, you are alerted by the smoke and
smell of burning rubber hose before you overheat and ruin your engine:)

Don't count on that, as I wrecked a raw water Atomic 4 back when I was
a newbie by forgetting to open the raw water seacock. The impeller
will shred rapidly, clogging your block, which is to be avoided. My
solution was two-fold: put the engine key on a carbiner and hang on
the seacock handle (I keep it closed because I've seen two boat sink
at dock from hose failure). The other method is to install a hot-water
alarm that goes off if the manifold water gets above a certain point.
Same idea as a low-pressure oil circuit: a screeching BEEP will make
you switch off the engine first, and figure out what's died on you.

Oh, yeah, I watch my dials and stick my head over the transom now a
LOT more. Expensive and time-consuming mistake, but I was too new then
to avoid it.

R.

the 'key on the seacock' thing is a good idea. My Yanmar doesn't have
a key, I look for the water out the exhaust.


--
Scott Vernon
Plowville Pa _/)__/)_/)_

"rhys" wrote in message
...


On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 19:30:41 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:


Nice thing about raw water and wet exhaust is that there is only
one pump.
If something interrupts the water flow, you are alerted by the
smoke and
smell of burning rubber hose before you overheat and ruin your
engine:)

Don't count on that, as I wrecked a raw water Atomic 4 back when I
was
a newbie by forgetting to open the raw water seacock. The impeller
will shred rapidly, clogging your block, which is to be avoided. My
solution was two-fold: put the engine key on a carbiner and hang on
the seacock handle (I keep it closed because I've seen two boat sink
at dock from hose failure). The other method is to install a
hot-water
alarm that goes off if the manifold water gets above a certain
point.
Same idea as a low-pressure oil circuit: a screeching BEEP will make
you switch off the engine first, and figure out what's died on you.

Oh, yeah, I watch my dials and stick my head over the transom now a
LOT more. Expensive and time-consuming mistake, but I was too new
then
to avoid it.

R.

"rhys" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 18:53:34 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:


I told him the boat was from the Great Lakes and he said, "Oh, no
problem.
In that case, it's a great engine and should be almost as good as new.
You
should get 15 more years out of it easy."

That's about right, and a very good argument for freshwater cooling
via an exchanger. Even in lake water, it can't hurt to run clean
coolant instead of whatever you happen to be sailing in, which can
have goo, poo and/or mussels in it.

...as time progresses I'll need all the other points of view I
can handle! I can't always count on guys like Skip Gundlach being
online G.

Hey!

I resemble that remark. However, today is a good day for me to see this, as
I just winterized (in my case, draining the water out is all I have to do)
my ski boat, as we're headed into the teens this weekend.

The exhaust manifolds spewed water that looked just like the red mud bottom
of the lake. There's not enough circulation/volume, and it tends to
accumulate, so, there you have it. The water from the block and water pump
was totally clear...

You'll not likely find a freshwater cooled ski boat, and in any case, it was
the exhaust manifolds, but it sure illustrated the point!

FWIW, for the very few watching, Flying Pig is coming along agonizingly and
excruciatingly slowly and expensively. Everything expands once you get into
it, and only one project is anywhere near completion, and another, which
should have been finished over a month ago, is just now ready to proceed
smoothly, all the other hiccups (presumably) having been dealt with.

I'm accumulating pictures in the currently-about-15 project folders; once
any have finished, I'll put them up on the gallery and tell the story. At
this point I'm praying the critical ones (I'm sure the less-than-critical
likely won't be touched) will be finished in time for us to leave...

L8R

Skip and Lydia


--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

You were lucky. The general guideline from the mechanics I know is that
it takes 30 seconds to start to destroy an impeller when run dry. There
are some impellers made from fancier materials that suposedly can
be run dry for a while, but they cost 3x or so more. I also suspect that
a new impeller can survive longer. I replace my impeller every
spring as part of my normal recommissioning to try to avoid any sort of
impeller failure. I also open the seacock once in the spring and then never
close it until fall unless I am leaving the boat unattended for a long
period
of time. So starting the engine with the seacock closes is not likely.

Doug
s/v CAllista

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 17:54:02 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
said:

The impeller will self-destruct way before any temperature alarm
sounds.

Not my experience, at least on my Yanmar. Had the engine heat up enough to
shut itself down once this summer before I noticed the temp light. Pulled
the impeller this fall--no damage.

There is no substitute for good
procedures that are followed.

So true. In this case I carefully followed my checklist on day 1, but
forgot
on day 2 that I had closed the sea cock the previous night.

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 17:54:02 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:

There is no substitute for good
procedures that are followed.


Doug, hard experience made me a convert to that philosophy. G

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 18:38:27 -0500, "Scott Vernon"
wrote:

the 'key on the seacock' thing is a good idea. My Yanmar doesn't have
a key, I look for the water out the exhaust.

Wow, you mean I can steal your boat by casting off and punching a
start button? G

If not a key on the seacock, then hang a GPS, your "sailing hat", a
pair of sunglasses, whatever. The idea is that you are persuaded to
check the seacock before you fire the engine, if, like me, you have
irregular visits and don't care to leave it open.

I close every seacock on the boat, by the way, excepting the cockpit
scuppers, which are pretty massively clamped at the hull ends.
R.

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 19:21:48 -0500, "Skip Gundlach" skipgundlach sez
use my name at earthlink dot fishcatcher (net) - with apologies for
the spamtrap wrote:


You'll not likely find a freshwater cooled ski boat, and in any case, it was
the exhaust manifolds, but it sure illustrated the point!

We winterize for real in Toronto, and part of that is putting a
T-connection after the pump but before the block. This T has a hose
fitting for a garden hose and you can flush the block with city
pressure straight out the back end. The first 15-20 seconds ain't
pretty, even in a clean lake. After that, you seal that T off and run
pink antifreeze via the raw water pump until it too flies out the
back. Then fog the carb, drain the fuel pump, spoon oil down the
cylinders...and as the guy who taught me this stuff says, you can
"sleep soundly as the February blizzards howl around your frozen
boat".

FWIW, for the very few watching, Flying Pig is coming along agonizingly and
excruciatingly slowly and expensively. Everything expands once you get into
it, and only one project is anywhere near completion, and another, which
should have been finished over a month ago, is just now ready to proceed
smoothly, all the other hiccups (presumably) having been dealt with.

This can't be news: the recreational boater's "rule of three" is in
full effect. Multiply all costs by three to achieve a predictable
tally, just as the word "marine" in front of a boat gear noun implies
the same multiple.

R.

On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 14:14:52 -0500, rhys wrote:

We winterize for real in Toronto, and part of that is putting a
T-connection after the pump but before the block. This T has a hose
fitting for a garden hose and you can flush the block with city
pressure straight out the back end. The first 15-20 seconds ain't
pretty, even in a clean lake. After that, you seal that T off and run
pink antifreeze via the raw water pump until it too flies out the
back.

I have a big strainer basket mounted above the water line. Raw water
runs from the intake up to the strainer, then back down to the water
pump. As a result, I can take the top off the strainer and feed
whatever I want into the engine by pouring it into the strainer. On
haulout day I run the engine, keeping it warm until I'm in the haulout
slip, then close the seacock and pour the pink stuff into the
strainer. With the engine warm the thermostat is open enough to get
flow everywhere. Then I shut down the engine and pull the drain plugs,
confident that anything left in the system is unlikely to freeze.

The other advantage of the strainer is that it provides a very obvious
direct check point for water flow peeking up through the engine cover
in the companionway.

It may be something in the lubricity of the pink stuff, but I have had
no problems with impeller damage from modest amounts of dry running
around haulout and launch. Atomic 4 in this case.

Ryk

"rhys" wrote in message
...

the 'key on the seacock' thing is a good idea. My Yanmar doesn't
have
a key, I look for the water out the exhaust.

Wow, you mean I can steal your boat by casting off and punching a
start button? G


Yes. You could also steal it by sailing away.



If not a key on the seacock, then hang a GPS, your "sailing hat", a
pair of sunglasses, whatever. The idea is that you are persuaded to
check the seacock before you fire the engine, if, like me, you have
irregular visits and don't care to leave it open.

I close every seacock on the boat, by the way, excepting the cockpit
scuppers, which are pretty massively clamped at the hull ends.


I keep all mine closed too. After closing the engine seacock, I leave
the engine house cover off whch reminds me to open the seacock when I
return.


--
Scott Vernon
Plowville Pa _/)__/)_/)_

nice "catch" roger....

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 10:15:15 -0500, "Scott Vernon"
wrote:


Yes. You could also steal it by sailing away.

How did you know I can do that??? G



I keep all mine closed too. After closing the engine seacock, I leave
the engine house cover off whch reminds me to open the seacock when I
return.

Nice. Whatever works is good. Two boats sunk at dock in five years in
a 200-slip club here, one with a failed clamp at the head inlet, the
other with a failed hose at the raw water inlet. Both skippers got the
phone call: "dude, I think your boat's sinking..." Both could have
been prevented with closing the cocks when off the boat.

R.

Say, what about rigging a limit switch to the seacock lever and hooking it
up to a loud alarm that goes off if the starter is engaged?

--

Roger Long

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:40:11 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

Say, what about rigging a limit switch to the seacock lever and hooking it
up to a loud alarm that goes off if the starter is engaged?

That would work, but it hasn't gotten to that stage yet in my mental
deterioration G.

R.

Be a lot easier and cheaper to write yourself a note, a big note.

SV

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Say, what about rigging a limit switch to the seacock lever and
hooking it
up to a loud alarm that goes off if the starter is engaged?

--

Roger Long

We have In and OUT checklists for opening the boat and leaving it.
They are laminated in plastic.

Seacocks are part of the checklist ritual. We have never forgotten
them.

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 10:10:43 -0500, "Scott Vernon"
wrote:

Be a lot easier and cheaper to write yourself a note, a big note.

SV

"Roger Long" wrote in message
. ..
Say, what about rigging a limit switch to the seacock lever and
hooking it
up to a loud alarm that goes off if the starter is engaged?

--

Roger Long





Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a

The destruction of the World Trade Center was
a faith-based initiative. -- George Carlin

A lot of guys do that. I always thought it was a bit silly, till one
day, 15 miles from the boat it started pouring and *then* I remembered
I didn't close the cabin ports.


--
Scott Vernon
Plowville Pa _/)__/)_/)_


"Rodney Myrvaagnes" wrote in message
...
We have In and OUT checklists for opening the boat and leaving it.
They are laminated in plastic.

Seacocks are part of the checklist ritual. We have never forgotten
them.

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 10:10:43 -0500, "Scott Vernon"
wrote:

Be a lot easier and cheaper to write yourself a note, a big note.

SV

"Roger Long" wrote in message
. ..
Say, what about rigging a limit switch to the seacock lever and
hooking it
up to a loud alarm that goes off if the starter is engaged?

--

Roger Long





Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a

The destruction of the World Trade Center was
a faith-based initiative. -- George Carlin

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:49:40 GMT, wrote:

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:43:11 -0500, Rodney Myrvaagnes
wrote:

We have In and OUT checklists for opening the boat and leaving it.
They are laminated in plastic.

Seacocks are part of the checklist ritual. We have never forgotten
them.


YET.

Right, but the checklist ritual helps. Also, if the raw water intake
is blocked, the exhaust sound lets you know instantly, long before the
closed-circuit coolant gets warmed up.




Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a

The destruction of the World Trade Center was
a faith-based initiative. -- George Carlin

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 23:09:07 -0500, Rodney Myrvaagnes
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:49:40 GMT, wrote:

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:43:11 -0500, Rodney Myrvaagnes
wrote:

We have In and OUT checklists for opening the boat and leaving it.
They are laminated in plastic.

Seacocks are part of the checklist ritual. We have never forgotten
them.


YET.

Right, but the checklist ritual helps. Also, if the raw water intake
is blocked, the exhaust sound lets you know instantly, long before the
closed-circuit coolant gets warmed up.

I check for water flowing out of the exhaust as soon as I start the
engine.

Check the seacock as a part of your daily routine: oil, coolant, belt
tension, bilge, etc.. That way you know BEFORE you start the engine.
Lack of cooling water can then be traced to something else.

Jack

__________________________________________________
Jack Dale
Swiftsure Sailing Academy
Director/ISPA and CYA Instructor
http://www.swiftsuresailing.com
__________________________________________________