Southern Long Island Bays Local Knowledge
 

I used to live in Bay Shore and thoroughly enjoyed the bays in a
32-footer that drew 3 feet. There are some really nifty places to
explore -- Sunken Forest at Sailor's Haven on Fire Island, and many
other Fire Island towns. With 4 feet you'll have to be more than
judicious and VERY motivated to do it, but by watching the channels
and timing your travel to the tides, you should be OK. You WILL
ground, but usually in soft sand. One trick, at least for seeing the
Fire Island towns, is to come in the Fire Island Inlet (slack tide is
best!), make your way to a berth in one of the Fire Island towns, and
use the water taxi service or the ferries that regularly cross the bay
from the mainland (Bay Shore, Sayville and Patchogue all have ferries
going to the different towns) to see the sights, such as they are.
BTW, the ferries are big boats that all draw at least 3 or 4, maybe 5
feet. They stay in the channels.

Further East, the bays get VERY shoal, and only local knowledge will
get you through. Moriches Inlet is used by locals, but is
treacherously shoal; ditto for Shinnecock. Nonetheless, local sports
fishing guys use them routinely, because they know the shifts, which
are frequent. All of this being said, I haven't been boating there in
several years, ahving moved to Atlanta 25 years ago. Last time I was
out on the bay I was eastbound from Lindenhurst to Bay shore in a 36
foot Chris Craft, and fetched bottom twice. No harm done, beyond my
ego and a little fragility added to my friendship with the guy whose
boat I was using.

Plan well and go for it. Then go thru the Shinnecock canal (much
argument here if there's a lock or a gate; if you go, please edify us
all) up into the Peconics. Stay in Sag Harbor for a little while, go
around to Greenport for a couple days, and anchor in Deering or
Coecles Harbor and rent a bike on Shelter Island. From there run out
to Montauk, thence to Block Island. All really great places.

Also, for an unusual cruising break: if you stay over on Fire Island,
ferry over to the mainland and take the Long Island Railroad into
Manhattan for dinner and a show. An hour and a half each way, but
what a neat juxtaposition to a cruise. We used to stay at Atlantique
on Fire Island from Thursday night until Monday night during the
summer months, and I'd commute to my office in New York on Friday
mornings while my wife and kids enjoyed the beach.

It's skinny water, but not too skinny for 4 feet.

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 15:39:30 GMT, (Mindprobe)
wrote:

Plan well and go for it. Then go thru the Shinnecock canal (much
argument here if there's a lock or a gate; if you go, please edify us
all) up into the Peconics.

==========================

Been there. It's a lock.

yup, according to idiots, civil service employees and local chambers of
commerce.

nope, according to the CG and Corps of Engineers.

take your choice. Idiots on one side, professionals on the other.

From: Wayne.B
Date: 11/22/2004 11:27 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 15:39:30 GMT, (Mindprobe)
wrote:

Plan well and go for it. Then go thru the Shinnecock canal (much
argument here if there's a lock or a gate; if you go, please edify us
all) up into the Peconics.

==========================

Been there. It's a lock.

JAXAshby wrote:
yup, according to idiots, civil service employees and local chambers of
commerce.

The "civil servant" being the lock tender. Sure jaxie, there's no
reason why he would know.


nope, according to the CG and Corps of Engineers.

This is an outright lie. There is no mention of the facility on either
of their web sites. The Corps of Engineers did not build the facility,
not do they manage it.

On the other hand, the Coast Pilot describes the locks and gates in
detail. And NOAA describes the current flow in their tide tables.

So who do you believe, the "professionals" that jaxie claims told him
about this, of the ones that publish the data?




take your choice. Idiots on one side, professionals on the other.


From: Wayne.B
Date: 11/22/2004 11:27 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 15:39:30 GMT, (Mindprobe)
wrote:


Plan well and go for it. Then go thru the Shinnecock canal (much
argument here if there's a lock or a gate; if you go, please edify us
all) up into the Peconics.

==========================

Been there. It's a lock.

yup, according to idiots, civil service employees and local chambers of
commerce.

The "civil servant" being the lock tender. Sure jaxie, there's no
reason why he would know.

he is not paid to know anything but when to close the gate. just like a city
bus driver is not paid to know anything about engines but when to make the next
stop.

(JAXAshby) wrote in message ...
Been there. It's a lock.

Been there. It's a gate.

The difference is I know the difference.

Check this out,
http://www.boatli.org/locks.htm

They say it's a lock

http://www.town.southampton.ny.us/about.ihtml

The town says it's a lock

http://www.history.rochester.edu/can...06/Chap12.html

This history book says it's a lock and gives the size

The locks to be 22 feet wide, and 90 feet long between gates. . . .

http://www.americancanals.org/progress.htm

And of course the American Canal Organization says it's a lock and
they might have some experience at this.

I found many more references that say it's a lock and did not find one
that said it's a gate.
So I would say that if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and
looks like a duck, it might just be a duck.
All the best,
Robert Gainer

try the Corps of Engs and the CG, and ask for the defintion of a "lock" as to
function, and then the definition of a "gate" as to function.

of course, to Lunnies, it is made of green cheese.

geesh, guys. the damned thing is open most of the time and often is not closed
at all for extended periods of time. go down there and watch the frickin'
water flow **IN**to Peconic Bay (because the damned gate is not closed) and
then **OUT** to Hampton Bay (because that is the way it is supposed to work and
then **IN**to Peconic ....

From: (Robert Gainer)
Date: 11/24/2004 4:54 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

(JAXAshby) wrote in message
...
Been there. It's a lock.

Been there. It's a gate.

The difference is I know the difference.

Check this out,
http://www.boatli.org/locks.htm

They say it's a lock

http://www.town.southampton.ny.us/about.ihtml

The town says it's a lock

http://www.history.rochester.edu/can...06/Chap12.html

This history book says it's a lock and gives the size

The locks to be 22 feet wide, and 90 feet long between gates. . . .

http://www.americancanals.org/progress.htm

And of course the American Canal Organization says it's a lock and
they might have some experience at this.

I found many more references that say it's a lock and did not find one
that said it's a gate.
So I would say that if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and
looks like a duck, it might just be a duck.
All the best,
Robert Gainer

JAXAshby wrote:
try the Corps of Engs and the CG, and ask for the defintion of a "lock" as to
function, and then the definition of a "gate" as to function.

You still trying to beat up this poor dead horse?
No one really gives a rat's patoot if YOU don't consider it a lock.
First off, your knowledge of anything "maritime" is purely basic and
surface skimming. Secondly, considering "first off", if some people wish
to call it a lock, in disagreement to you're nonsense, what do you care?
As for the CG and corp...... well, only you would call them useless
incompetents in one thread, then "experts" in another.
Do us all a favor, Doodles. Go cuddle up with your teddybear and
hibernate for the winter.

otn

over the knee *finally* tells one and all that his posts over the years have no
value except as beer drinking conversation thusly:

From: otnmbrd
Date: 11/24/2004 8:20 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: . net

JAXAshby wrote:
try the Corps of Engs and the CG, and ask for the defintion of a "lock" as
to
function, and then the definition of a "gate" as to function.

You still trying to beat up this poor dead horse?
No one really gives a rat's patoot if YOU don't consider it a lock.
First off, your knowledge of anything "maritime" is purely basic and
surface skimming. Secondly, considering "first off", if some people wish
to call it a lock, in disagreement to you're nonsense, what do you care?
As for the CG and corp...... well, only you would call them useless
incompetents in one thread, then "experts" in another.
Do us all a favor, Doodles. Go cuddle up with your teddybear and
hibernate for the winter.

otn

Subject: Southern Long Island Bays Local Knowledge
From:

Doodles *finally* tells one and all that his post over the years have no value
even as drinking conversation thusly:


over the knee *finally* tells one and all that his posts over the years have
no
value except as beer drinking conversation thusly:


Shen

LOL Doodles, I hate using the term incompetent, but YOU are not only
incompetent in 99% of your response's content on any given subject
"maritime", but YOU are totally incompetent when it comes to "ass drag"
responses ......

otn


JAXAshby wrote:
over the knee *finally* tells one and all that his posts over the years have no
value except as beer drinking conversation thusly:

over the knee, you are drunk. still, or again?



From: otnmbrd
Date: 11/24/2004 8:59 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: et

LOL Doodles, I hate using the term incompetent, but YOU are not only
incompetent in 99% of your response's content on any given subject
"maritime", but YOU are totally incompetent when it comes to "ass drag"
responses ......

otn


JAXAshby wrote:
over the knee *finally* tells one and all that his posts over the years
have no
value except as beer drinking conversation thusly:

JAXAshby wrote:
over the knee, you are drunk. still, or again?

Keeristmas, what a stupid attempt..... later Doodles

Jaxie, you've "claimed" the CG and Corps have told you there are no
locks, but you've failed to find any reference to it on the Web. The
Corps, in fact, has had no involvement with the facility, so there is no
reason why the would ever mention it - proving you just made this up!

Numerous references have been given to a variety of sites that describe
the locks. For the third time, here's the Coast Pilot:

http://chartmaker.ncd.noaa.gov/nsd/c...-33ed-Ch10.pdf

Chart 12352
10) Shinnecock Canal, 31.5 miles southwestward of
Montauk Point, is about 1 mile long and connects
Great Peconic Bay with Shinnecock Bay. The canal is
owned and maintained by Suffolk County of New York.
It is a partly dredged cut and is protected at the north
entrance by two jetties; the east jetty is marked by a
light. In April 1985, the east timber jetty was reported
to be deteriorating. Protruding timbers and floating
debris may be encountered; caution is advised. A lock
about midway in the canal is 250 feet long, 41 feet wide,
with a depth of 12 feet over the sills. Tide gates are par-
allel to and westward of the lock. The lock gates and
tide gates are constructed so that tidal action opens
them to allow the current to set south through the
canal and closes them to prevent water from
Shinnecock Bay to flow back into Great Peconic Bay.
The lock gates are tended 24 hours and are opened me-
chanically when the tidal current is flowing northward
to allow the passage of boats. Red and green traffic lights
are at each end of the lock. Vessels are allowed to
enter the lock only on the green signal.
11) The fixed bridges and overhead power cables across
the canal have a least clearance of 22 feet. Mast-step-
ping cranes are available at both ends of the canal.



However, since jaxie doesn't believe the Coast Pilot, here's a
photograph from Google Keyhole service. You can download a demo version
- its a very slick program that allows zooming in anywhere.
www.keyhole.com
This picture clearly show the tide gates to the west and the lock to the
east. Of course, the northern gate is open - its is common for one gate
to be open - but it shows quite clearly on the picture.

http://www.sv-loki.com/shinnecock.jpg

Its pretty clear that if jaxie ever went through this canal (and that is
doubtful) he was so terrified of going through the tide gates that he
didn't notice the lock just to the East.




JAXAshby wrote:
try the Corps of Engs and the CG, and ask for the defintion of a "lock" as to
function, and then the definition of a "gate" as to function.

of course, to Lunnies, it is made of green cheese.

geesh, guys. the damned thing is open most of the time and often is not closed
at all for extended periods of time. go down there and watch the frickin'
water flow **IN**to Peconic Bay (because the damned gate is not closed) and
then **OUT** to Hampton Bay (because that is the way it is supposed to work and
then **IN**to Peconic ....


From: (Robert Gainer)
Date: 11/24/2004 4:54 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

(JAXAshby) wrote in message
...

Been there. It's a lock.

Been there. It's a gate.

The difference is I know the difference.

Check this out,
http://www.boatli.org/locks.htm

They say it's a lock

http://www.town.southampton.ny.us/about.ihtml

The town says it's a lock

http://www.history.rochester.edu/can...06/Chap12.html

This history book says it's a lock and gives the size

The locks to be 22 feet wide, and 90 feet long between gates. . . .

http://www.americancanals.org/progress.htm

And of course the American Canal Organization says it's a lock and
they might have some experience at this.

I found many more references that say it's a lock and did not find one
that said it's a gate.
So I would say that if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and
looks like a duck, it might just be a duck.
All the best,
Robert Gainer

jeffies, give it up. the damned thing is a gate, as described by both theCG
and the C of Eng. Whats more, *IF* you had ever seen the thing *OR* talked
with anyone who works adjacent to the canal you would know (well maybe not you,
jeffies, but the person of at least high two digit or more IQ would know) that
the damned gate if often left open for extended periods of time, totally
negating its intended purpose of limiting the flow of seawater in Peconic Bay.

Get your wife to drive you down there, jeffies, and take a look at the thing,
and maybe talk with those who work close by and/or regularly use the canal.

what a dumb cluck you are.

From: Jeff Morris
Date: 11/25/2004 12:07 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

Jaxie, you've "claimed" the CG and Corps have told you there are no
locks, but you've failed to find any reference to it on the Web. The
Corps, in fact, has had no involvement with the facility, so there is no
reason why the would ever mention it - proving you just made this up!

Numerous references have been given to a variety of sites that describe
the locks. For the third time, here's the Coast Pilot:

http://chartmaker.ncd.noaa.gov/nsd/c...-33ed-Ch10.pdf

Chart 12352
10) Shinnecock Canal, 31.5 miles southwestward of
Montauk Point, is about 1 mile long and connects
Great Peconic Bay with Shinnecock Bay. The canal is
owned and maintained by Suffolk County of New York.
It is a partly dredged cut and is protected at the north
entrance by two jetties; the east jetty is marked by a
light. In April 1985, the east timber jetty was reported
to be deteriorating. Protruding timbers and floating
debris may be encountered; caution is advised. A lock
about midway in the canal is 250 feet long, 41 feet wide,
with a depth of 12 feet over the sills. Tide gates are par-
allel to and westward of the lock. The lock gates and
tide gates are constructed so that tidal action opens
them to allow the current to set south through the
canal and closes them to prevent water from
Shinnecock Bay to flow back into Great Peconic Bay.
The lock gates are tended 24 hours and are opened me-
chanically when the tidal current is flowing northward
to allow the passage of boats. Red and green traffic lights
are at each end of the lock. Vessels are allowed to
enter the lock only on the green signal.
11) The fixed bridges and overhead power cables across
the canal have a least clearance of 22 feet. Mast-step-
ping cranes are available at both ends of the canal.



However, since jaxie doesn't believe the Coast Pilot, here's a
photograph from Google Keyhole service. You can download a demo version
- its a very slick program that allows zooming in anywhere.
www.keyhole.com
This picture clearly show the tide gates to the west and the lock to the
east. Of course, the northern gate is open - its is common for one gate
to be open - but it shows quite clearly on the picture.

http://www.sv-loki.com/shinnecock.jpg

Its pretty clear that if jaxie ever went through this canal (and that is
doubtful) he was so terrified of going through the tide gates that he
didn't notice the lock just to the East.




JAXAshby wrote:
try the Corps of Engs and the CG, and ask for the defintion of a "lock" as
to
function, and then the definition of a "gate" as to function.

of course, to Lunnies, it is made of green cheese.

geesh, guys. the damned thing is open most of the time and often is not
closed
at all for extended periods of time. go down there and watch the frickin'
water flow **IN**to Peconic Bay (because the damned gate is not closed) and
then **OUT** to Hampton Bay (because that is the way it is supposed to work
and
then **IN**to Peconic ....


From: (Robert Gainer)
Date: 11/24/2004 4:54 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

(JAXAshby) wrote in message
...

Been there. It's a lock.

Been there. It's a gate.

The difference is I know the difference.

Check this out,
http://www.boatli.org/locks.htm

They say it's a lock

http://www.town.southampton.ny.us/about.ihtml

The town says it's a lock

http://www.history.rochester.edu/can...06/Chap12.html

This history book says it's a lock and gives the size

The locks to be 22 feet wide, and 90 feet long between gates. . . .

http://www.americancanals.org/progress.htm

And of course the American Canal Organization says it's a lock and
they might have some experience at this.

I found many more references that say it's a lock and did not find one
that said it's a gate.
So I would say that if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and
looks like a duck, it might just be a duck.
All the best,
Robert Gainer

JAXAshby wrote:
jeffies, give it up. the damned thing is a gate, as described by both theCG
and the C of Eng.


Where do they say that, jaxie? In a dream you had? Certainly not on
the internet or in any publication! And what involvement does the Corps
of Eng have with it? You made this up and now you're lying because
you're too much of a coward to admit your blunder.


Whats more, *IF* you had ever seen the thing *OR* talked
with anyone who works adjacent to the canal you would know (well maybe not you,
jeffies, but the person of at least high two digit or more IQ would know) that
the damned gate if often left open for extended periods of time, totally
negating its intended purpose of limiting the flow of seawater in Peconic Bay.

We can all look at it Jaxie. Here's a pictu

http://www.sv-loki.com/shinnecock.jpg

Can you possibly claim this is not a lock?

As for "negating the purpose" there has been discussion about revering
the gates to allow more sea water into Peconic bay. But regardless,
that's a lock next to the tide gates. Only an idiot would claim otherwise.

jeffies, a gate is used to impede fluid flow. a lock uses two gates to move a
boat from a body of water at one level to a body of water at another level.
jeffies, I know this is hard for you to understand, so ask your wife to help
you out here, but the Peconic Bay and Hampton Bay are tidal waters. Same
tides, same moon. the gates are there to impede the flow of tidal water from
Hampton Bay ***to*** Peconic Bay (which is less salty because of river flow).
the gates are often not closed and HB water flows freely into RB. I have seen
the gates open and have seen HB water flowing towards PB at what seemed to be
about 4 knots. I have also seen the gates open with PB water flowing towards
HB at what seemed to be about 4 knots. I have also talked with employees of
the marina on the canal who stated flatly that the gates were often open for
extended periods of time.

that ain't a lock, jeffies, it is a gate. Different purposes for either. The
CG and C of Eng know the difference even if you don't jeffies.

kriste but it is tough trying to talk with 80 IQ idiots.



From: Jeff Morris
Date: 11/25/2004 10:30 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

JAXAshby wrote:
jeffies, give it up. the damned thing is a gate, as described by both
theCG
and the C of Eng.


Where do they say that, jaxie? In a dream you had? Certainly not on
the internet or in any publication! And what involvement does the Corps
of Eng have with it? You made this up and now you're lying because
you're too much of a coward to admit your blunder.


Whats more, *IF* you had ever seen the thing *OR* talked
with anyone who works adjacent to the canal you would know (well maybe not
you,
jeffies, but the person of at least high two digit or more IQ would know)
that
the damned gate if often left open for extended periods of time, totally
negating its intended purpose of limiting the flow of seawater in Peconic
Bay.

We can all look at it Jaxie. Here's a pictu

http://www.sv-loki.com/shinnecock.jpg

Can you possibly claim this is not a lock?

As for "negating the purpose" there has been discussion about revering
the gates to allow more sea water into Peconic bay. But regardless,
that's a lock next to the tide gates. Only an idiot would claim otherwise.

I would not be surprised if the gates are, at times left open in both
directions. As I've said, there has been talk reversing the gates to
allow better flushing of the bay:
http://www.savethepeconicbays.org/cc.../appendixl.doc
However, the lock tender didn't mention this when I talked to him about
the lock.

I don't think the "reversal" was done at the recent refit of the lock
gates. Note that this was a refit of the "lock gates," not the "tide
gates" nearby. They even have a picture of the lock:
http://jmoa.com/structural/portfolio.asp?ID=139

I did find one mention of the canal in a Corps of Eng report. They say:
"This canal has a tidal gate, allowing water to enter Shinnecock Bay but
not leave it." I guess you talked to a different Corps of Engineers.
http://cirp.wes.army.mil/cirp/cetns/chetn-iv42.pdf

The issue is not whether the lock is, on occasion, left open. You have
claimed many times that there is no lock, and there is only a tide gate.
However, the picture is pretty clear and proves not only that you're
wrong, but that you've never actually been there and you've been lying
about this since the beginning.

http://www.sv-loki.com/shinnecock.jpg







JAXAshby wrote:
jeffies, a gate is used to impede fluid flow. a lock uses two gates to move a
boat from a body of water at one level to a body of water at another level.
jeffies, I know this is hard for you to understand, so ask your wife to help
you out here, but the Peconic Bay and Hampton Bay are tidal waters. Same
tides, same moon. the gates are there to impede the flow of tidal water from
Hampton Bay ***to*** Peconic Bay (which is less salty because of river flow).
the gates are often not closed and HB water flows freely into RB. I have seen
the gates open and have seen HB water flowing towards PB at what seemed to be
about 4 knots. I have also seen the gates open with PB water flowing towards
HB at what seemed to be about 4 knots. I have also talked with employees of
the marina on the canal who stated flatly that the gates were often open for
extended periods of time.

that ain't a lock, jeffies, it is a gate. Different purposes for either. The
CG and C of Eng know the difference even if you don't jeffies.

kriste but it is tough trying to talk with 80 IQ idiots.




From: Jeff Morris
Date: 11/25/2004 10:30 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

JAXAshby wrote:

jeffies, give it up. the damned thing is a gate, as described by both

theCG

and the C of Eng.


Where do they say that, jaxie? In a dream you had? Certainly not on
the internet or in any publication! And what involvement does the Corps
of Eng have with it? You made this up and now you're lying because
you're too much of a coward to admit your blunder.



Whats more, *IF* you had ever seen the thing *OR* talked
with anyone who works adjacent to the canal you would know (well maybe not

you,

jeffies, but the person of at least high two digit or more IQ would know)

that

the damned gate if often left open for extended periods of time, totally
negating its intended purpose of limiting the flow of seawater in Peconic

Bay.

We can all look at it Jaxie. Here's a pictu

http://www.sv-loki.com/shinnecock.jpg

Can you possibly claim this is not a lock?

As for "negating the purpose" there has been discussion about revering
the gates to allow more sea water into Peconic bay. But regardless,
that's a lock next to the tide gates. Only an idiot would claim otherwise.

jeffie, your post below shows clearly just to what lengths you will go to
ignore ALL reality to keep your erroneous first thoughts in place. you admit
you have been shown the dictionary meanings of the words, you admit you
understand that there is no difference in water levels, you admit the gates are
often left open, you admit, the purpose of the gates was and is to prevent
saltier Hampton Bay water from entering Peconic Bay, you admit the CG says the
thing is is gate not a lock, BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT you still insist it is
lock because ********you****** looked at a picture and *******you******** can't
imagine anything with two gates that can not be a lock.

Kriste almighty, jeffies, just how is anyone going to transit the canal when
the gate is closed without opening it????????????????????? THEN you have to
have two (2) gates, otherwise the water would flow into Peconic Bay when you
opened the gate. Duh.

jeffies, sometime when you post such stew ped stuff I think you are doing it
just to be a contentious turd. Other times, I think you really don't
understand.

From: Jeff Morris
Date: 11/26/2004 8:41 AM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

I would not be surprised if the gates are, at times left open in both
directions. As I've said, there has been talk reversing the gates to
allow better flushing of the bay:
http://www.savethepeconicbays.org/cc.../appendixl.doc
However, the lock tender didn't mention this when I talked to him about
the lock.

I don't think the "reversal" was done at the recent refit of the lock
gates. Note that this was a refit of the "lock gates," not the "tide
gates" nearby. They even have a picture of the lock:
http://jmoa.com/structural/portfolio.asp?ID=139

I did find one mention of the canal in a Corps of Eng report. They say:
"This canal has a tidal gate, allowing water to enter Shinnecock Bay but
not leave it." I guess you talked to a different Corps of Engineers.
http://cirp.wes.army.mil/cirp/cetns/chetn-iv42.pdf

The issue is not whether the lock is, on occasion, left open. You have
claimed many times that there is no lock, and there is only a tide gate.
However, the picture is pretty clear and proves not only that you're
wrong, but that you've never actually been there and you've been lying
about this since the beginning.

http://www.sv-loki.com/shinnecock.jpg







JAXAshby wrote:
jeffies, a gate is used to impede fluid flow. a lock uses two gates to
move a
boat from a body of water at one level to a body of water at another level.

jeffies, I know this is hard for you to understand, so ask your wife to
help
you out here, but the Peconic Bay and Hampton Bay are tidal waters. Same
tides, same moon. the gates are there to impede the flow of tidal water
from
Hampton Bay ***to*** Peconic Bay (which is less salty because of river
flow).
the gates are often not closed and HB water flows freely into RB. I have
seen
the gates open and have seen HB water flowing towards PB at what seemed to
be
about 4 knots. I have also seen the gates open with PB water flowing
towards
HB at what seemed to be about 4 knots. I have also talked with employees
of
the marina on the canal who stated flatly that the gates were often open
for
extended periods of time.

that ain't a lock, jeffies, it is a gate. Different purposes for either.
The
CG and C of Eng know the difference even if you don't jeffies.

kriste but it is tough trying to talk with 80 IQ idiots.




From: Jeff Morris
Date: 11/25/2004 10:30 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

JAXAshby wrote:

jeffies, give it up. the damned thing is a gate, as described by both

theCG

and the C of Eng.


Where do they say that, jaxie? In a dream you had? Certainly not on
the internet or in any publication! And what involvement does the Corps
of Eng have with it? You made this up and now you're lying because
you're too much of a coward to admit your blunder.



Whats more, *IF* you had ever seen the thing *OR* talked
with anyone who works adjacent to the canal you would know (well maybe not

you,

jeffies, but the person of at least high two digit or more IQ would know)

that

the damned gate if often left open for extended periods of time, totally
negating its intended purpose of limiting the flow of seawater in Peconic

Bay.

We can all look at it Jaxie. Here's a pictu

http://www.sv-loki.com/shinnecock.jpg

Can you possibly claim this is not a lock?

As for "negating the purpose" there has been discussion about revering
the gates to allow more sea water into Peconic bay. But regardless,
that's a lock next to the tide gates. Only an idiot would claim otherwise.

Gawd Jaxie, what a blatant liar you are! Have you no shame??? Have
you ever told the truth about anything?


JAXAshby wrote:
jeffie, your post below shows clearly just to what lengths you will go to
ignore ALL reality to keep your erroneous first thoughts in place. you admit
you have been shown the dictionary meanings of the words, you admit you
understand that there is no difference in water levels,

A lie - The tide tables are pretty clear there is a significant
difference in the tide levels between the two bays. I pointed this out
early on - you seemed to claim this was impossible, but the tables don't
lie. This is just one of the many instances where you have shown your
complete ignorance of things nautical.

you admit the gates are often left open,

Another lie - I only said that I wouldn't be surprised if it happened.
You provided no evidence it does, other than your claim, which is worthless.

Of course, the lock gates were designed to automatically open when the
current runs south - I pointed that out in my first post.

you admit, the purpose of the gates was and is to prevent
saltier Hampton Bay water from entering Peconic Bay,

Another lie - I never mentioned the original purpose of the facility,
only how the Coast Pilot says they operate now. The gates and lock were
built before a Hurricane (1938?) opened Shinnecock Inlet so the
conditions have changed. The lock, BTW, was added years after the
original tide gates were built.

you admit the CG says the
thing is is gate not a lock,

Another lie - I have found no mention of the facility from the CG. You
have made this claim, but you obviously made it up. The Coast Pilot,
published by the Office of Coast Survey under NOAA is quite clear there
are tide gates and a lock.

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT you still insist it is
lock because ********you****** looked at a picture and *******you******** can't
imagine anything with two gates that can not be a lock.

I call it a lock because it is a lock. NOAA calls it a lock. The Corps
of Eng calls it a lock. The company that repaired it recently calls it
a lock. The agency that owns and maintains it calls it a lock. The
lock tender that runs it calls is a lock. Numerous reports describe it
as a lock. Several reports of transit describe it functioning as a
lock. All of this is from published sites I've provided. And a picture
of it clearly shows its a lock:

http://www.sv-loki.com/shinnecock.jpg

The only thing that is different about it is that the gates are designed
to stay open when the current runs south. And there are tide gates next
to the lock that open with the southerly current But I said that on
my very first post.



Kriste almighty, jeffies, just how is anyone going to transit the canal when
the gate is closed without opening it????????????????????? THEN you have to
have two (2) gates, otherwise the water would flow into Peconic Bay when you
opened the gate. Duh.

What? Are you claiming now that you don't know how a lock works?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA! Are you claiming it can't be a lock because its
a chamber with with gates on both ends???

perhaps you should study this for a while, jaxie:
http://www.eriecanal.org/locks.html
or maybe:
http://www.haworth-village.org.uk/na...canal-lock.asp
This one has cuter pictures:
http://www.fodc.org/info/fodclock.htm

I knew there was a fundamental problem here - you have no idea how a
lock works!!! What a bozo you are, jaxie!!!

jeffies, you finally admit the gates ar open on a an ebb tide, but then state
there is a huge difference in tide levels between the two bays.

think about it, jeffies. you just stated that the current would *not* flow
north.

jeffies, I have seen the current flow south on an ebb and north on a flood, the
gates wide open..

so, jeffies, gargble around some more, continuing to prove to one and all you
either are purposely a contentious turd or you are trying desparately to cover
your abject stewpedity.

From: Jeff Morris
Date: 11/26/2004 1:12 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

Gawd Jaxie, what a blatant liar you are! Have you no shame??? Have
you ever told the truth about anything?


JAXAshby wrote:
jeffie, your post below shows clearly just to what lengths you will go to
ignore ALL reality to keep your erroneous first thoughts in place. you
admit
you have been shown the dictionary meanings of the words, you admit you
understand that there is no difference in water levels,

A lie - The tide tables are pretty clear there is a significant
difference in the tide levels between the two bays. I pointed this out
early on - you seemed to claim this was impossible, but the tables don't
lie. This is just one of the many instances where you have shown your
complete ignorance of things nautical.

you admit the gates are often left open,

Another lie - I only said that I wouldn't be surprised if it happened.
You provided no evidence it does, other than your claim, which is worthless.

Of course, the lock gates were designed to automatically open when the
current runs south - I pointed that out in my first post.

you admit, the purpose of the gates was and is to prevent
saltier Hampton Bay water from entering Peconic Bay,

Another lie - I never mentioned the original purpose of the facility,
only how the Coast Pilot says they operate now. The gates and lock were
built before a Hurricane (1938?) opened Shinnecock Inlet so the
conditions have changed. The lock, BTW, was added years after the
original tide gates were built.

you admit the CG says the
thing is is gate not a lock,

Another lie - I have found no mention of the facility from the CG. You
have made this claim, but you obviously made it up. The Coast Pilot,
published by the Office of Coast Survey under NOAA is quite clear there
are tide gates and a lock.

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT you still insist it is
lock because ********you****** looked at a picture and *******you********
can't
imagine anything with two gates that can not be a lock.

I call it a lock because it is a lock. NOAA calls it a lock. The Corps
of Eng calls it a lock. The company that repaired it recently calls it
a lock. The agency that owns and maintains it calls it a lock. The
lock tender that runs it calls is a lock. Numerous reports describe it
as a lock. Several reports of transit describe it functioning as a
lock. All of this is from published sites I've provided. And a picture
of it clearly shows its a lock:

http://www.sv-loki.com/shinnecock.jpg

The only thing that is different about it is that the gates are designed
to stay open when the current runs south. And there are tide gates next
to the lock that open with the southerly current But I said that on
my very first post.



Kriste almighty, jeffies, just how is anyone going to transit the canal
when
the gate is closed without opening it????????????????????? THEN you have
to
have two (2) gates, otherwise the water would flow into Peconic Bay when
you
opened the gate. Duh.

What? Are you claiming now that you don't know how a lock works?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA! Are you claiming it can't be a lock because its
a chamber with with gates on both ends???

perhaps you should study this for a while, jaxie:
http://www.eriecanal.org/locks.html
or maybe:
http://www.haworth-village.org.uk/na...canal-lock.asp
This one has cuter pictures:
http://www.fodc.org/info/fodclock.htm

I knew there was a fundamental problem here - you have no idea how a
lock works!!! What a bozo you are, jaxie!!!

How can you lie like this jaxie? Don't you realize that from now
everyone knows you're a pathological liar and will never believe
anything you ever say?

JAXAshby the pathological liar wrote:
jeffies, you finally admit the gates ar open on a an ebb tide,

I said that from the beginning. From the first, and many times after
I've quoted from the Coast Pilot:
"The lock gates and
tide gates are constructed so that tidal action opens
them to allow the current to set south through the
canal and closes them to prevent water from
Shinnecock Bay to flow back into Great Peconic Bay"

but then state
there is a huge difference in tide levels between the two bays.

Yes there is - several feet or more at times, measured a few miles apart
on opposite sides of the canal. Anyone can look that up, but it seems
beyond your skills or comprehension.


think about it, jeffies. you just stated that the current would *not* flow
north.

What part of "and closes them to prevent water from
Shinnecock Bay to flow back into Great Peconic Bay" do you not
understand? I'm not making this up; this is the Coast Pilot, published
by the US Coast Survey.



jeffies, I have seen the current flow south on an ebb and north on a flood, the
gates wide open..

What you think you've seen is of no relevance here. In addition to
being a pathological liar, you have no understanding of how a lock even
works. It is doubtful that you would even know which way is north.
And, it does not bear on the issue of whether the facility is a "lock."
I've seen a lock wide open many times; they are still a lock.

Perhaps if you posted a reference to back up your claim that this is the
normal practice ... but you would never do that.

jeffies, think about if for a few weeks, ask your wife for help, then think
about it for several weeks more. maybe -- just maybe -- you might come to
understand the what you said. let me explain it to you

*you* said there is a wide difference in heights between Hampton Bay and
Peconic Bay.

Q Is this always?

A Obviously not, for if one were always higher than the other the water would
flow only one direction and that is not the case. (it would also require a
lock in the canal)

Q If the water on the HB side is higher than the PB side, why is that?

A Because the tide is flooding

Q If the tide is flooding then the height difference must be enough to require
a lock, no?

A No. In fact Peconic Bay has no lock and is open to the Atlantic Ocean to
the east and the Peconic Bay is tidal water.

Q Then Hampton Bay must not be tidal water, right?

A Hampton Bay is tidal water.

Q So, why the lock?

A No lock, the water height difference is not enough but to cause ordinary
tidal flow.

Q So why the gates?

A To reduce the saltier HB water from entering PB in large quantities.

Q Why is PB less saltier?

A PB has freshwater rivers flowing into it.

Q So, Hampton Bay must have the same water level, less tidal difference, as
PC.

A Of course. If HB water were always higher the canal would need a lock to
move boats. If PB water were always higher there would be no need to worry
about salty HB water from entering.

Q So, what is the issue

A jeffies thinks because locks have two gates anything with two gates is a
lock.

Q Is jeffies a fumb duck?

A Yes


From: Jeff Morris
Date: 11/26/2004 1:56 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

How can you lie like this jaxie? Don't you realize that from now
everyone knows you're a pathological liar and will never believe
anything you ever say?

JAXAshby the pathological liar wrote:
jeffies, you finally admit the gates ar open on a an ebb tide,

I said that from the beginning. From the first, and many times after
I've quoted from the Coast Pilot:
"The lock gates and
tide gates are constructed so that tidal action opens
them to allow the current to set south through the
canal and closes them to prevent water from
Shinnecock Bay to flow back into Great Peconic Bay"

but then state
there is a huge difference in tide levels between the two bays.

Yes there is - several feet or more at times, measured a few miles apart
on opposite sides of the canal. Anyone can look that up, but it seems
beyond your skills or comprehension.


think about it, jeffies. you just stated that the current would *not* flow
north.

What part of "and closes them to prevent water from
Shinnecock Bay to flow back into Great Peconic Bay" do you not
understand? I'm not making this up; this is the Coast Pilot, published
by the US Coast Survey.



jeffies, I have seen the current flow south on an ebb and north on a flood,
the
gates wide open..

What you think you've seen is of no relevance here. In addition to
being a pathological liar, you have no understanding of how a lock even
works. It is doubtful that you would even know which way is north.
And, it does not bear on the issue of whether the facility is a "lock."
I've seen a lock wide open many times; they are still a lock.

Perhaps if you posted a reference to back up your claim that this is the
normal practice ... but you would never do that.

Now you're just in fantasy land, jaxie.


JAXAshby wrote:
jeffies, think about if for a few weeks, ask your wife for help, then think
about it for several weeks more. maybe -- just maybe -- you might come to
understand the what you said. let me explain it to you

*you* said there is a wide difference in heights between Hampton Bay and
Peconic Bay.

If by "Hampton Bay" you mean Shinnecock Bay, yes I did. So does NOAA.
The tides in the two bays are roughly 4 hours out of sync, so the tide
difference will be substantial for much of the time. The difference can
be 2 feet or more. The two reference point I've used are Peconic Bay,
near the northern end of the canal, and near the Ponquogue Bridge, a
mile or so from the southern end.



Q Is this always?

A Obviously not, for if one were always higher than the other the water would
flow only one direction and that is not the case. (it would also require a
lock in the canal)

They obviously alternate - one side is higher, then the other.


Q If the water on the HB side is higher than the PB side, why is that?

A Because the tide is flooding

Flooding yes, but not necessarily through the Shinnecock Canal.
Shinnecock Bay is connected to the ocean through several inlets on the
south side of Long Island - it would rise and fall regardless of the
current through the canal.



Q If the tide is flooding then the height difference must be enough to require
a lock, no?

A No. In fact Peconic Bay has no lock and is open to the Atlantic Ocean to
the east and the Peconic Bay is tidal water.

A height difference does not "require" a lock. There are serious height
differences in a variety of places where there is not lock. Hell Gate
and Cape Cod Canal are two areas that have major differences across a
few miles, and there is no lock.

However, when the current is strong, it can be desirable to put a lock
in to stop the flow and allow boat traffic more often. Apparently that
is what was decided for the Shinnecock Canal, because there is a lock there.

BTW, here's a quote from an early proposal. For financial reasons, the
lock was not added until some years after the tidal gates. However, the
need was recognized early:
"A lock should be constructed at each end of the canal to retain the
water at the elevation of high tide, and make slack water between the
bays. The tide rises at this place about three feet, and as there are
about three hours’ difference in the time of high water in the bays, the
locks will be necessary to prevent a rapid current in the canal, and
will permit the passage of vessels at all times of tide."
http://www.history.rochester.edu/can...06/Chap12.html



Q Then Hampton Bay must not be tidal water, right?

A Hampton Bay is tidal water.


Again, do you mean Shinnecock Bay?

Q So, why the lock?

A No lock, the water height difference is not enough but to cause ordinary
tidal flow.


Than how do you explain the picture of the lock? Good Grief, you're
arguing that it makes no sense to put a lock there when in fact they
did! I posted the picture of it - here it is again:

http://www.sv-loki.com/shinnecock.jpg

How do you explain the picture of the repair to the lock gates, just two
years ago? If they were to remain open, why would the county spend
several million to repair them?

And what do you mean by "height difference is not enough but to cause
ordinary tidal flow"? What is "ordinary tidal flow" and how much
height difference cause that?




Q So why the gates?

A To reduce the saltier HB water from entering PB in large quantities.

Wrong! The gates were constructed to allow salt water from Peconic Bay
to enter the fresh water Shinnecock Bay in an effort to clean it since
it had become polluted. They did not want the polluted water to return
north. The Shinnecock Inlet did not exist (despite several efforts to
create it) until the the hurricane of 1938.

Now, the situation is reversed, and Shinnecock Bay is salty, and Peconic
Bay is fresher and polluted. This is why there have been proposals to
reverse the gates. This is also why I granted that they may have left
the locks open. However, although this is a possibility, I've seen no
evidence of it.

Actually, before the hurricane opened Shinnecock Inlet, the gates were
left open much of the time, and flow was allowed in both directions.
After the inlet was opened, the gates were closed to keep the water
higher in Shinnecock Bay, to prevent silting in of the inlet.



Q Why is PB less saltier?

A PB has freshwater rivers flowing into it.

It may be less salty now, but it wasn't when the gates were built.



Q So, Hampton Bay must have the same water level, less tidal difference, as
PC.
A Of course. If HB water were always higher the canal would need a lock to
move boats. If PB water were always higher there would be no need to worry
about salty HB water from entering.

And yet, the published tide tables show there is often a two foot
difference between Peconic Bay and Shinnecock Bay. Are you claiming
those are wrong too?

BTW, here's a quote from a recent magazine article:

"This problem [erosion in the canal] was solved by building tide gates
and, in 1919, a lock in the canal. The one-way tide gates -- pushed open
by high tides running south from Peconic Bay and pushed closed by high
tides running from the opposite direction -- ensure that enough water
flushes out of Peconic Bay into Shinnecock Bay to carry all the sand and
silt that would otherwise accumulate and block the canal. The lock,
rebuilt about 30 years ago, allows boats to be floated up or down to
meet the differing water levels at either end."
http://www.newsday.com/community/gui...ory-navigation




Q So, what is the issue

A jeffies thinks because locks have two gates anything with two gates is a
lock.

Isn't that what a lock is? A chamber with gates at either end? Every
comment on the facility describes it as a lock. Why do you insist it is
not?



Q Is jaxie a fumb duck?

A Yes


At least there's something we can all agree with!

[sigh] attempting discussion with jeffies is like attempting discussion with
junior high school dropout TV minister.

Reading your posts jax is getting worse and worse. Get some
professional help jax. Spend less time on the
computer and more time in therapy. You would be a happier person and we
would all benefit. I have seen your photos
and suggest you may be having a midlife crisis of some sort.
Condescending prick !

JAXAshby wrote:

[sigh] attempting discussion with jeffies is like attempting discussion with
junior high school dropout TV minister.

JAXAshby wrote:
[sigh] attempting discussion with jeffies is like attempting discussion with
junior high school dropout TV minister.


That's about as close as jaxie ever gets to admitting he was completely
wrong. Somehow I thought the picture of the lock might have been
enough to convince jaxie there really is a lock, but like a beheaded
chicken, jaxie always has to run in circles for a while longer ...

in other words, jay, you were unable to understand the posts. thanks for
telling us.

From: JayVee
Date: 11/26/2004 5:54 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

Reading your posts jax is getting worse and worse. Get some
professional help jax. Spend less time on the
computer and more time in therapy. You would be a happier person and we
would all benefit. I have seen your photos
and suggest you may be having a midlife crisis of some sort.
Condescending prick !

JAXAshby wrote:

[sigh] attempting discussion with jeffies is like attempting discussion
with
junior high school dropout TV minister.

Everyone understood the posts, except you, jaxie. After months of
talking about this you revealed that you didn't understand how a lock
even worked, nor did you even know which bodies of water were connected
by the Shinnecock Canal!


JAXAshby wrote:
in other words, jay, you were unable to understand the posts. thanks for
telling us.


From: JayVee
Date: 11/26/2004 5:54 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

Reading your posts jax is getting worse and worse. Get some
professional help jax. Spend less time on the
computer and more time in therapy. You would be a happier person and we
would all benefit. I have seen your photos
and suggest you may be having a midlife crisis of some sort.
Condescending prick !

JAXAshby wrote:


[sigh] attempting discussion with jeffies is like attempting discussion

with

junior high school dropout TV minister.

notice how junior vee takes yet another straight posting and turns it to his
preference.

From: JayVee
Date: 11/26/2004 5:54 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

Reading your posts jax is getting worse and worse. Get some
professional help jax. Spend less time on the
computer and more time in therapy. You would be a happier person and we
would all benefit. I have seen your photos
and suggest you may be having a midlife crisis of some sort.
Condescending prick !

JAXAshby wrote:

[sigh] attempting discussion with jeffies is like attempting discussion
with
junior high school dropout TV minister.

jeffies, *you* have never seen that canal and never will, not even from the
highway. what's more, your wife would never let you attempt to pass through it
because you would have to take your mast down at one end and put it back up
(something she would never allow you to do without professional help) and
because the water is shallow in the bay and the channel is too winding for you
to follow.

now, listen up jeffies. the height difference between the bays is slight the
current there never gets much above 4 knots either direction. That is less
current than either way in The Race (which has no locks and no gates across)
and less current either way than the East River (which has no locks and no
gates across) and about the current through the Verazano Narrows (which has no
locks and no gates across) and one hell of a lot less current than the Harlem
River (which has no locks and no gates across) and about the current of the
Cape Cod canal (which has no locks and no gates across) and just a bit more
current than Block Island Sound (which has no locks and no gates across).

Now, jeffies, just because some gate tender who may wish to argue for a pay
raise calls a lock a gate no more makes it a lock than some pretentious local
politician (looking for federal funds to maintain it?) calling a gate a lock.
The CG says it is not a lock and the C of Eng says it is not a lock. It is no
more a lock because it is shaped like a lock than a rubber doll is a woman
because it is shaped like a woman.

geesh, do you suppose that jeffies really does think an inflatable doll can
cook just because it is shaped like a woman? jeffies, how many orifaces does
an inflatable doll have? I have no experience with inflatable dolls and so
have to trust your experience on this.

From: Jeff Morris
Date: 11/26/2004 10:02 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

JAXAshby wrote:
jeffies, attempting rational discussion with you is like attempting rational
discusssion with a dog pile.

You're right jaxie. You're pretty pathetic by comparison in either case.

so, jeffie, are those "locks" or "gates" across The Race, or the East River, or
the Harlem River, or the Verizano Narrows, or Block Island Sound, or the Cape
Cod canal?

Gee, they all have currents equal to or greater than the Shinnecock canal.

So what did you say the purpose of a lock is, jeffies?

jeffies is the only person on the planet who walks into a phone booth believing
he will come out Superman.

From: Jeff Morris
Date: 12/5/2004 12:25 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

JAXAshby wrote:
jeffies, attempting rational discussion with you is like attempting
rational
discusssion with a dog pile.

You're right jaxie. You're pretty pathetic by comparison in either case.

JAXAshby continues to prove he's a complete idiot:

jeffies, *you* have never seen that canal and never will, not even from the
highway.

You're right. I've never seen it. Neither have you.

what's more, your wife would never let you attempt to pass through it
because you would have to take your mast down at one end and put it back up
(something she would never allow you to do without professional help)

Do you mean like we did in the Erie Canal? Of course, we did have a
professional crane operator to put it back up - this is a serious sized
mast we have. However, the Oswego Marina has a manual crane that they
allow the amateurs to use.

and
because the water is shallow in the bay and the channel is too winding for you
to follow.

Yes - very shallow. Not like the shallow water we had in Florida Bay.
But we know you're terrified of shallow water - you actually claimed it
was impossible to sail down the Chesapeake without local knowledge!



now, listen up jeffies. the height difference between the bays is slight the
current there never gets much above 4 knots either direction.

Why do all of the tide table show the height difference is often two
feet?

Here's a web site -
http://www.tides.com/cgi-bin/tcweb.exe

Even in the more modest tides right now, the difference between the
north side of the canal (Peconic Bay, Shinnecock Canal) and the south
side (Ponquogue Bridge) is about 1.5 feet at 6PM today. The printouts I
saved from 2 weeks ago show a 2 foot difference for most of the day.

And remember, I posted a link to an old report that said the tidal
difference was often 5 feet before the inlet was cut in 1938. The lock
was built some twenty years before that.


That is less
current than either way in The Race (which has no locks and no gates across)
and less current either way than the East River (which has no locks and no
gates across) and about the current through the Verazano Narrows (which has no
locks and no gates across) and one hell of a lot less current than the Harlem
River (which has no locks and no gates across) and about the current of the
Cape Cod canal (which has no locks and no gates across) and just a bit more
current than Block Island Sound (which has no locks and no gates across).

Do you have a point here or are you just trying to show your stupidity?
The decision to put in locks is a combination of factors. For
example, a 4 knot current in a channel a mile wide is a little different
from 4 knots in a cut 100 feet wide.

However, the only reason I mentioned Hell Gate was to point out that
there are numerous places the have a tidal difference of several feet
across a few miles. You seemed to think this is physically impossible.


Now, jeffies, just because some gate tender who may wish to argue for a pay
raise calls a lock a gate no more makes it a lock than some pretentious local
politician (looking for federal funds to maintain it?) calling a gate a lock.

How about the Coast Pilot? What "hidden agenda" do they have?

The CG says it is not a lock

No. They say its a lock. If you want to claim different, post a link.
Otherwise you just an idiot.

and the C of Eng says it is not a lock.

No. the C of Eng says its a lock. I even posted a reference where they
described its action. Again, you're just too much of a coward to admit
you were lying in the beginning.

It is no
more a lock because it is shaped like a lock than a rubber doll is a woman
because it is shaped like a woman.

Finally you brought up a topic where you have some knowledge. We'll
have to take your word about that.

Its a lock because it was built as a lock and continues to function as a
lock. The fact that it is only used to when the current runs north
(as I pointed out in my first post) is not relevant.

JAXAshby wrote:
so, jeffie, are those "locks" or "gates" across The Race, or the East River, or
the Harlem River, or the Verizano Narrows, or Block Island Sound, or the Cape
Cod canal?

Nope. No need for locks there, even though the tidal differences are
over 2 feet in these areas.


Gee, they all have currents equal to or greater than the Shinnecock canal.


What's your point? Each situation is different. And the locks were
added to the Shinnecock Canal before the Shinnecock Inlet was opened by
the Hurricane of '38.


So what did you say the purpose of a lock is, jeffies?


Here's a quote I'll repeat from a local magazine. If you have trouble
with the big words we can help you:

"This problem [erosion in the canal] was solved by building tide gates
and, in 1919, a lock in the canal. The one-way tide gates -- pushed open
by high tides running south from Peconic Bay and pushed closed by high
tides running from the opposite direction -- ensure that enough water
flushes out of Peconic Bay into Shinnecock Bay to carry all the sand and
silt that would otherwise accumulate and block the canal. The lock,
rebuilt about 30 years ago, allows boats to be floated up or down to
meet the differing water levels at either end."
http://www.newsday.com/community/gui...ory-navigation

jeffies, you are as stew ped as a sheet rock wall. have you -- physics major
you claim to be -- any idea that current is related to just how much difference
in water levels there are?

wanna tell again that an inflatable doll cooks because it has the shape of a
woman?

From: Jeff Morris
Date: 12/5/2004 5:31 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

JAXAshby continues to prove he's a complete idiot:

jeffies, *you* have never seen that canal and never will, not even from the
highway.

You're right. I've never seen it. Neither have you.

what's more, your wife would never let you attempt to pass through it
because you would have to take your mast down at one end and put it back up
(something she would never allow you to do without professional help)

Do you mean like we did in the Erie Canal? Of course, we did have a
professional crane operator to put it back up - this is a serious sized
mast we have. However, the Oswego Marina has a manual crane that they
allow the amateurs to use.

and
because the water is shallow in the bay and the channel is too winding for
you
to follow.

Yes - very shallow. Not like the shallow water we had in Florida Bay.
But we know you're terrified of shallow water - you actually claimed it
was impossible to sail down the Chesapeake without local knowledge!



now, listen up jeffies. the height difference between the bays is slight
the
current there never gets much above 4 knots either direction.

Why do all of the tide table show the height difference is often two
feet?

Here's a web site -
http://www.tides.com/cgi-bin/tcweb.exe

Even in the more modest tides right now, the difference between the
north side of the canal (Peconic Bay, Shinnecock Canal) and the south
side (Ponquogue Bridge) is about 1.5 feet at 6PM today. The printouts I
saved from 2 weeks ago show a 2 foot difference for most of the day.

And remember, I posted a link to an old report that said the tidal
difference was often 5 feet before the inlet was cut in 1938. The lock
was built some twenty years before that.


That is less
current than either way in The Race (which has no locks and no gates
across)
and less current either way than the East River (which has no locks and no
gates across) and about the current through the Verazano Narrows (which has
no
locks and no gates across) and one hell of a lot less current than the
Harlem
River (which has no locks and no gates across) and about the current of the
Cape Cod canal (which has no locks and no gates across) and just a bit more
current than Block Island Sound (which has no locks and no gates across).

Do you have a point here or are you just trying to show your stupidity?
The decision to put in locks is a combination of factors. For
example, a 4 knot current in a channel a mile wide is a little different
from 4 knots in a cut 100 feet wide.

However, the only reason I mentioned Hell Gate was to point out that
there are numerous places the have a tidal difference of several feet
across a few miles. You seemed to think this is physically impossible.


Now, jeffies, just because some gate tender who may wish to argue for a pay
raise calls a lock a gate no more makes it a lock than some pretentious
local
politician (looking for federal funds to maintain it?) calling a gate a
lock.

How about the Coast Pilot? What "hidden agenda" do they have?

The CG says it is not a lock

No. They say its a lock. If you want to claim different, post a link.
Otherwise you just an idiot.

and the C of Eng says it is not a lock.

No. the C of Eng says its a lock. I even posted a reference where they
described its action. Again, you're just too much of a coward to admit
you were lying in the beginning.

It is no
more a lock because it is shaped like a lock than a rubber doll is a woman
because it is shaped like a woman.

Finally you brought up a topic where you have some knowledge. We'll
have to take your word about that.

Its a lock because it was built as a lock and continues to function as a
lock. The fact that it is only used to when the current runs north
(as I pointed out in my first post) is not relevant.

jeffies, fumb duck that you are, you just quoted a newpaper reported who
clearly states that there is a LOCK there.

kriste almighty, jeffies. how does it feel to spend your entire adult life
trying to prove you are not a stew ped as the junior high school girls said you
were? jeffies, you have a wife to balance your checkbook for you. those jrhs
girls from so long ago have forgotten what you look like and really would no
longer care that you are so stew ped. quit worrying about them, jeffies and
for the kriste sakes STOP trying to prove you aren't dumber than a sheetrock
wall..

From: Jeff Morris
Date: 12/5/2004 5:43 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

JAXAshby wrote:
so, jeffie, are those "locks" or "gates" across The Race, or the East
River, or
the Harlem River, or the Verizano Narrows, or Block Island Sound, or the
Cape
Cod canal?

Nope. No need for locks there, even though the tidal differences are
over 2 feet in these areas.


Gee, they all have currents equal to or greater than the Shinnecock canal.


What's your point? Each situation is different. And the locks were
added to the Shinnecock Canal before the Shinnecock Inlet was opened by
the Hurricane of '38.


So what did you say the purpose of a lock is, jeffies?


Here's a quote I'll repeat from a local magazine. If you have trouble
with the big words we can help you:

"This problem [erosion in the canal] was solved by building tide gates
and, in 1919, a lock in the canal. The one-way tide gates -- pushed open
by high tides running south from Peconic Bay and pushed closed by high
tides running from the opposite direction -- ensure that enough water
flushes out of Peconic Bay into Shinnecock Bay to carry all the sand and
silt that would otherwise accumulate and block the canal. The lock,
rebuilt about 30 years ago, allows boats to be floated up or down to
meet the differing water levels at either end."

http://www.newsday.com/community/gui...6,0,6426268.st
ory?coll=ny-lihistory-navigation

JAXAshby wrote:
jeffies, you are as stew ped as a sheet rock wall. have you -- physics major
you claim to be -- any idea that current is related to just how much difference
in water levels there are?


Why don't you explain it to us, jaxie? You keep making a vague allusion
to your difficulty in understanding tides. So what is it - are you
saying that its impossible to have a height difference of a few feet
over a few miles?

Why don't you take a Power Squadron course, and after they explain how
to use a tide table, look up the tides on either side of Hell Gate or
the Cape Cod Canal. And then lookup the Shinnecock Canal. You may not
understand it, but you might finally believe it.

wanna tell again that an inflatable doll cooks because it has the shape of a
woman?

That's your department, jaxie.

JAXAshby wrote:
jeffies, fumb duck that you are, you just quoted a newpaper reported who
clearly states that there is a LOCK there.

Isn't that what I've been claiming all along? Are you now reversing
sides completely? You're the one who has been claiming that there isn't
a lock there.





From: Jeff Morris
Date: 12/5/2004 5:43 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

JAXAshby wrote:

so, jeffie, are those "locks" or "gates" across The Race, or the East

River, or

the Harlem River, or the Verizano Narrows, or Block Island Sound, or the

Cape

Cod canal?

Nope. No need for locks there, even though the tidal differences are
over 2 feet in these areas.


Gee, they all have currents equal to or greater than the Shinnecock canal.


What's your point? Each situation is different. And the locks were
added to the Shinnecock Canal before the Shinnecock Inlet was opened by
the Hurricane of '38.



So what did you say the purpose of a lock is, jeffies?


Here's a quote I'll repeat from a local magazine. If you have trouble
with the big words we can help you:

"This problem [erosion in the canal] was solved by building tide gates
and, in 1919, a lock in the canal. The one-way tide gates -- pushed open
by high tides running south from Peconic Bay and pushed closed by high
tides running from the opposite direction -- ensure that enough water
flushes out of Peconic Bay into Shinnecock Bay to carry all the sand and
silt that would otherwise accumulate and block the canal. The lock,
rebuilt about 30 years ago, allows boats to be floated up or down to
meet the differing water levels at either end."

http://www.newsday.com/community/gui...6,0,6426268.st

ory?coll=ny-lihistory-navigation

so, fumb duck, the shinnecock needs a "lock" because of the tidal difference,
but The Race, Hell Gate, the East River, the Verizanno Narrows, the Harlem
River, Block Island Sound, the Cape Cod canal and the Cape May canal do not
even the "tidal difference" is greater?????????????

jeffies, do you even bother to read WTF you write?

From: Jeff Morris
Date: 12/5/2004 5:43 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

JAXAshby wrote:
so, jeffie, are those "locks" or "gates" across The Race, or the East
River, or
the Harlem River, or the Verizano Narrows, or Block Island Sound, or the
Cape
Cod canal?

Nope. No need for locks there, even though the tidal differences are
over 2 feet in these areas.


Gee, they all have currents equal to or greater than the Shinnecock canal.


What's your point? Each situation is different. And the locks were
added to the Shinnecock Canal before the Shinnecock Inlet was opened by
the Hurricane of '38.


So what did you say the purpose of a lock is, jeffies?


Here's a quote I'll repeat from a local magazine. If you have trouble
with the big words we can help you:

"This problem [erosion in the canal] was solved by building tide gates
and, in 1919, a lock in the canal. The one-way tide gates -- pushed open
by high tides running south from Peconic Bay and pushed closed by high
tides running from the opposite direction -- ensure that enough water
flushes out of Peconic Bay into Shinnecock Bay to carry all the sand and
silt that would otherwise accumulate and block the canal. The lock,
rebuilt about 30 years ago, allows boats to be floated up or down to
meet the differing water levels at either end."

http://www.newsday.com/community/gui...6,0,6426268.st
ory?coll=ny-lihistory-navigation