jeffie, your post below shows clearly just to what lengths you will go to
ignore ALL reality to keep your erroneous first thoughts in place. you admit
you have been shown the dictionary meanings of the words, you admit you
understand that there is no difference in water levels, you admit the gates are
often left open, you admit, the purpose of the gates was and is to prevent
saltier Hampton Bay water from entering Peconic Bay, you admit the CG says the
thing is is gate not a lock, BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT you still insist it is
lock because ********you****** looked at a picture and *******you******** can't
imagine anything with two gates that can not be a lock.

Kriste almighty, jeffies, just how is anyone going to transit the canal when
the gate is closed without opening it????????????????????? THEN you have to
have two (2) gates, otherwise the water would flow into Peconic Bay when you
opened the gate. Duh.

jeffies, sometime when you post such stew ped stuff I think you are doing it
just to be a contentious turd. Other times, I think you really don't
understand.

From: Jeff Morris
Date: 11/26/2004 8:41 AM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

I would not be surprised if the gates are, at times left open in both
directions. As I've said, there has been talk reversing the gates to
allow better flushing of the bay:
http://www.savethepeconicbays.org/cc.../appendixl.doc
However, the lock tender didn't mention this when I talked to him about
the lock.

I don't think the "reversal" was done at the recent refit of the lock
gates. Note that this was a refit of the "lock gates," not the "tide
gates" nearby. They even have a picture of the lock:
http://jmoa.com/structural/portfolio.asp?ID=139

I did find one mention of the canal in a Corps of Eng report. They say:
"This canal has a tidal gate, allowing water to enter Shinnecock Bay but
not leave it." I guess you talked to a different Corps of Engineers.
http://cirp.wes.army.mil/cirp/cetns/chetn-iv42.pdf

The issue is not whether the lock is, on occasion, left open. You have
claimed many times that there is no lock, and there is only a tide gate.
However, the picture is pretty clear and proves not only that you're
wrong, but that you've never actually been there and you've been lying
about this since the beginning.

http://www.sv-loki.com/shinnecock.jpg







JAXAshby wrote:
jeffies, a gate is used to impede fluid flow. a lock uses two gates to
move a
boat from a body of water at one level to a body of water at another level.

jeffies, I know this is hard for you to understand, so ask your wife to
help
you out here, but the Peconic Bay and Hampton Bay are tidal waters. Same
tides, same moon. the gates are there to impede the flow of tidal water
from
Hampton Bay ***to*** Peconic Bay (which is less salty because of river
flow).
the gates are often not closed and HB water flows freely into RB. I have
seen
the gates open and have seen HB water flowing towards PB at what seemed to
be
about 4 knots. I have also seen the gates open with PB water flowing
towards
HB at what seemed to be about 4 knots. I have also talked with employees
of
the marina on the canal who stated flatly that the gates were often open
for
extended periods of time.

that ain't a lock, jeffies, it is a gate. Different purposes for either.
The
CG and C of Eng know the difference even if you don't jeffies.

kriste but it is tough trying to talk with 80 IQ idiots.




From: Jeff Morris
Date: 11/25/2004 10:30 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

JAXAshby wrote:

jeffies, give it up. the damned thing is a gate, as described by both

theCG

and the C of Eng.


Where do they say that, jaxie? In a dream you had? Certainly not on
the internet or in any publication! And what involvement does the Corps
of Eng have with it? You made this up and now you're lying because
you're too much of a coward to admit your blunder.



Whats more, *IF* you had ever seen the thing *OR* talked
with anyone who works adjacent to the canal you would know (well maybe not

you,

jeffies, but the person of at least high two digit or more IQ would know)

that

the damned gate if often left open for extended periods of time, totally
negating its intended purpose of limiting the flow of seawater in Peconic

Bay.

We can all look at it Jaxie. Here's a pictu

http://www.sv-loki.com/shinnecock.jpg

Can you possibly claim this is not a lock?

As for "negating the purpose" there has been discussion about revering
the gates to allow more sea water into Peconic bay. But regardless,
that's a lock next to the tide gates. Only an idiot would claim otherwise.

Gawd Jaxie, what a blatant liar you are! Have you no shame??? Have
you ever told the truth about anything?


JAXAshby wrote:
jeffie, your post below shows clearly just to what lengths you will go to
ignore ALL reality to keep your erroneous first thoughts in place. you admit
you have been shown the dictionary meanings of the words, you admit you
understand that there is no difference in water levels,

A lie - The tide tables are pretty clear there is a significant
difference in the tide levels between the two bays. I pointed this out
early on - you seemed to claim this was impossible, but the tables don't
lie. This is just one of the many instances where you have shown your
complete ignorance of things nautical.

you admit the gates are often left open,

Another lie - I only said that I wouldn't be surprised if it happened.
You provided no evidence it does, other than your claim, which is worthless.

Of course, the lock gates were designed to automatically open when the
current runs south - I pointed that out in my first post.

you admit, the purpose of the gates was and is to prevent
saltier Hampton Bay water from entering Peconic Bay,

Another lie - I never mentioned the original purpose of the facility,
only how the Coast Pilot says they operate now. The gates and lock were
built before a Hurricane (1938?) opened Shinnecock Inlet so the
conditions have changed. The lock, BTW, was added years after the
original tide gates were built.

you admit the CG says the
thing is is gate not a lock,

Another lie - I have found no mention of the facility from the CG. You
have made this claim, but you obviously made it up. The Coast Pilot,
published by the Office of Coast Survey under NOAA is quite clear there
are tide gates and a lock.

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT you still insist it is
lock because ********you****** looked at a picture and *******you******** can't
imagine anything with two gates that can not be a lock.

I call it a lock because it is a lock. NOAA calls it a lock. The Corps
of Eng calls it a lock. The company that repaired it recently calls it
a lock. The agency that owns and maintains it calls it a lock. The
lock tender that runs it calls is a lock. Numerous reports describe it
as a lock. Several reports of transit describe it functioning as a
lock. All of this is from published sites I've provided. And a picture
of it clearly shows its a lock:

http://www.sv-loki.com/shinnecock.jpg

The only thing that is different about it is that the gates are designed
to stay open when the current runs south. And there are tide gates next
to the lock that open with the southerly current But I said that on
my very first post.



Kriste almighty, jeffies, just how is anyone going to transit the canal when
the gate is closed without opening it????????????????????? THEN you have to
have two (2) gates, otherwise the water would flow into Peconic Bay when you
opened the gate. Duh.

What? Are you claiming now that you don't know how a lock works?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA! Are you claiming it can't be a lock because its
a chamber with with gates on both ends???

perhaps you should study this for a while, jaxie:
http://www.eriecanal.org/locks.html
or maybe:
http://www.haworth-village.org.uk/na...canal-lock.asp
This one has cuter pictures:
http://www.fodc.org/info/fodclock.htm

I knew there was a fundamental problem here - you have no idea how a
lock works!!! What a bozo you are, jaxie!!!

jeffies, you finally admit the gates ar open on a an ebb tide, but then state
there is a huge difference in tide levels between the two bays.

think about it, jeffies. you just stated that the current would *not* flow
north.

jeffies, I have seen the current flow south on an ebb and north on a flood, the
gates wide open..

so, jeffies, gargble around some more, continuing to prove to one and all you
either are purposely a contentious turd or you are trying desparately to cover
your abject stewpedity.

From: Jeff Morris
Date: 11/26/2004 1:12 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

Gawd Jaxie, what a blatant liar you are! Have you no shame??? Have
you ever told the truth about anything?


JAXAshby wrote:
jeffie, your post below shows clearly just to what lengths you will go to
ignore ALL reality to keep your erroneous first thoughts in place. you
admit
you have been shown the dictionary meanings of the words, you admit you
understand that there is no difference in water levels,

A lie - The tide tables are pretty clear there is a significant
difference in the tide levels between the two bays. I pointed this out
early on - you seemed to claim this was impossible, but the tables don't
lie. This is just one of the many instances where you have shown your
complete ignorance of things nautical.

you admit the gates are often left open,

Another lie - I only said that I wouldn't be surprised if it happened.
You provided no evidence it does, other than your claim, which is worthless.

Of course, the lock gates were designed to automatically open when the
current runs south - I pointed that out in my first post.

you admit, the purpose of the gates was and is to prevent
saltier Hampton Bay water from entering Peconic Bay,

Another lie - I never mentioned the original purpose of the facility,
only how the Coast Pilot says they operate now. The gates and lock were
built before a Hurricane (1938?) opened Shinnecock Inlet so the
conditions have changed. The lock, BTW, was added years after the
original tide gates were built.

you admit the CG says the
thing is is gate not a lock,

Another lie - I have found no mention of the facility from the CG. You
have made this claim, but you obviously made it up. The Coast Pilot,
published by the Office of Coast Survey under NOAA is quite clear there
are tide gates and a lock.

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT you still insist it is
lock because ********you****** looked at a picture and *******you********
can't
imagine anything with two gates that can not be a lock.

I call it a lock because it is a lock. NOAA calls it a lock. The Corps
of Eng calls it a lock. The company that repaired it recently calls it
a lock. The agency that owns and maintains it calls it a lock. The
lock tender that runs it calls is a lock. Numerous reports describe it
as a lock. Several reports of transit describe it functioning as a
lock. All of this is from published sites I've provided. And a picture
of it clearly shows its a lock:

http://www.sv-loki.com/shinnecock.jpg

The only thing that is different about it is that the gates are designed
to stay open when the current runs south. And there are tide gates next
to the lock that open with the southerly current But I said that on
my very first post.



Kriste almighty, jeffies, just how is anyone going to transit the canal
when
the gate is closed without opening it????????????????????? THEN you have
to
have two (2) gates, otherwise the water would flow into Peconic Bay when
you
opened the gate. Duh.

What? Are you claiming now that you don't know how a lock works?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA! Are you claiming it can't be a lock because its
a chamber with with gates on both ends???

perhaps you should study this for a while, jaxie:
http://www.eriecanal.org/locks.html
or maybe:
http://www.haworth-village.org.uk/na...canal-lock.asp
This one has cuter pictures:
http://www.fodc.org/info/fodclock.htm

I knew there was a fundamental problem here - you have no idea how a
lock works!!! What a bozo you are, jaxie!!!

How can you lie like this jaxie? Don't you realize that from now
everyone knows you're a pathological liar and will never believe
anything you ever say?

JAXAshby the pathological liar wrote:
jeffies, you finally admit the gates ar open on a an ebb tide,

I said that from the beginning. From the first, and many times after
I've quoted from the Coast Pilot:
"The lock gates and
tide gates are constructed so that tidal action opens
them to allow the current to set south through the
canal and closes them to prevent water from
Shinnecock Bay to flow back into Great Peconic Bay"

but then state
there is a huge difference in tide levels between the two bays.

Yes there is - several feet or more at times, measured a few miles apart
on opposite sides of the canal. Anyone can look that up, but it seems
beyond your skills or comprehension.


think about it, jeffies. you just stated that the current would *not* flow
north.

What part of "and closes them to prevent water from
Shinnecock Bay to flow back into Great Peconic Bay" do you not
understand? I'm not making this up; this is the Coast Pilot, published
by the US Coast Survey.



jeffies, I have seen the current flow south on an ebb and north on a flood, the
gates wide open..

What you think you've seen is of no relevance here. In addition to
being a pathological liar, you have no understanding of how a lock even
works. It is doubtful that you would even know which way is north.
And, it does not bear on the issue of whether the facility is a "lock."
I've seen a lock wide open many times; they are still a lock.

Perhaps if you posted a reference to back up your claim that this is the
normal practice ... but you would never do that.

jeffies, think about if for a few weeks, ask your wife for help, then think
about it for several weeks more. maybe -- just maybe -- you might come to
understand the what you said. let me explain it to you

*you* said there is a wide difference in heights between Hampton Bay and
Peconic Bay.

Q Is this always?

A Obviously not, for if one were always higher than the other the water would
flow only one direction and that is not the case. (it would also require a
lock in the canal)

Q If the water on the HB side is higher than the PB side, why is that?

A Because the tide is flooding

Q If the tide is flooding then the height difference must be enough to require
a lock, no?

A No. In fact Peconic Bay has no lock and is open to the Atlantic Ocean to
the east and the Peconic Bay is tidal water.

Q Then Hampton Bay must not be tidal water, right?

A Hampton Bay is tidal water.

Q So, why the lock?

A No lock, the water height difference is not enough but to cause ordinary
tidal flow.

Q So why the gates?

A To reduce the saltier HB water from entering PB in large quantities.

Q Why is PB less saltier?

A PB has freshwater rivers flowing into it.

Q So, Hampton Bay must have the same water level, less tidal difference, as
PC.

A Of course. If HB water were always higher the canal would need a lock to
move boats. If PB water were always higher there would be no need to worry
about salty HB water from entering.

Q So, what is the issue

A jeffies thinks because locks have two gates anything with two gates is a
lock.

Q Is jeffies a fumb duck?

A Yes


From: Jeff Morris
Date: 11/26/2004 1:56 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

How can you lie like this jaxie? Don't you realize that from now
everyone knows you're a pathological liar and will never believe
anything you ever say?

JAXAshby the pathological liar wrote:
jeffies, you finally admit the gates ar open on a an ebb tide,

I said that from the beginning. From the first, and many times after
I've quoted from the Coast Pilot:
"The lock gates and
tide gates are constructed so that tidal action opens
them to allow the current to set south through the
canal and closes them to prevent water from
Shinnecock Bay to flow back into Great Peconic Bay"

but then state
there is a huge difference in tide levels between the two bays.

Yes there is - several feet or more at times, measured a few miles apart
on opposite sides of the canal. Anyone can look that up, but it seems
beyond your skills or comprehension.


think about it, jeffies. you just stated that the current would *not* flow
north.

What part of "and closes them to prevent water from
Shinnecock Bay to flow back into Great Peconic Bay" do you not
understand? I'm not making this up; this is the Coast Pilot, published
by the US Coast Survey.



jeffies, I have seen the current flow south on an ebb and north on a flood,
the
gates wide open..

What you think you've seen is of no relevance here. In addition to
being a pathological liar, you have no understanding of how a lock even
works. It is doubtful that you would even know which way is north.
And, it does not bear on the issue of whether the facility is a "lock."
I've seen a lock wide open many times; they are still a lock.

Perhaps if you posted a reference to back up your claim that this is the
normal practice ... but you would never do that.

Now you're just in fantasy land, jaxie.


JAXAshby wrote:
jeffies, think about if for a few weeks, ask your wife for help, then think
about it for several weeks more. maybe -- just maybe -- you might come to
understand the what you said. let me explain it to you

*you* said there is a wide difference in heights between Hampton Bay and
Peconic Bay.

If by "Hampton Bay" you mean Shinnecock Bay, yes I did. So does NOAA.
The tides in the two bays are roughly 4 hours out of sync, so the tide
difference will be substantial for much of the time. The difference can
be 2 feet or more. The two reference point I've used are Peconic Bay,
near the northern end of the canal, and near the Ponquogue Bridge, a
mile or so from the southern end.



Q Is this always?

A Obviously not, for if one were always higher than the other the water would
flow only one direction and that is not the case. (it would also require a
lock in the canal)

They obviously alternate - one side is higher, then the other.


Q If the water on the HB side is higher than the PB side, why is that?

A Because the tide is flooding

Flooding yes, but not necessarily through the Shinnecock Canal.
Shinnecock Bay is connected to the ocean through several inlets on the
south side of Long Island - it would rise and fall regardless of the
current through the canal.



Q If the tide is flooding then the height difference must be enough to require
a lock, no?

A No. In fact Peconic Bay has no lock and is open to the Atlantic Ocean to
the east and the Peconic Bay is tidal water.

A height difference does not "require" a lock. There are serious height
differences in a variety of places where there is not lock. Hell Gate
and Cape Cod Canal are two areas that have major differences across a
few miles, and there is no lock.

However, when the current is strong, it can be desirable to put a lock
in to stop the flow and allow boat traffic more often. Apparently that
is what was decided for the Shinnecock Canal, because there is a lock there.

BTW, here's a quote from an early proposal. For financial reasons, the
lock was not added until some years after the tidal gates. However, the
need was recognized early:
"A lock should be constructed at each end of the canal to retain the
water at the elevation of high tide, and make slack water between the
bays. The tide rises at this place about three feet, and as there are
about three hours’ difference in the time of high water in the bays, the
locks will be necessary to prevent a rapid current in the canal, and
will permit the passage of vessels at all times of tide."
http://www.history.rochester.edu/can...06/Chap12.html



Q Then Hampton Bay must not be tidal water, right?

A Hampton Bay is tidal water.


Again, do you mean Shinnecock Bay?

Q So, why the lock?

A No lock, the water height difference is not enough but to cause ordinary
tidal flow.


Than how do you explain the picture of the lock? Good Grief, you're
arguing that it makes no sense to put a lock there when in fact they
did! I posted the picture of it - here it is again:

http://www.sv-loki.com/shinnecock.jpg

How do you explain the picture of the repair to the lock gates, just two
years ago? If they were to remain open, why would the county spend
several million to repair them?

And what do you mean by "height difference is not enough but to cause
ordinary tidal flow"? What is "ordinary tidal flow" and how much
height difference cause that?




Q So why the gates?

A To reduce the saltier HB water from entering PB in large quantities.

Wrong! The gates were constructed to allow salt water from Peconic Bay
to enter the fresh water Shinnecock Bay in an effort to clean it since
it had become polluted. They did not want the polluted water to return
north. The Shinnecock Inlet did not exist (despite several efforts to
create it) until the the hurricane of 1938.

Now, the situation is reversed, and Shinnecock Bay is salty, and Peconic
Bay is fresher and polluted. This is why there have been proposals to
reverse the gates. This is also why I granted that they may have left
the locks open. However, although this is a possibility, I've seen no
evidence of it.

Actually, before the hurricane opened Shinnecock Inlet, the gates were
left open much of the time, and flow was allowed in both directions.
After the inlet was opened, the gates were closed to keep the water
higher in Shinnecock Bay, to prevent silting in of the inlet.



Q Why is PB less saltier?

A PB has freshwater rivers flowing into it.

It may be less salty now, but it wasn't when the gates were built.



Q So, Hampton Bay must have the same water level, less tidal difference, as
PC.
A Of course. If HB water were always higher the canal would need a lock to
move boats. If PB water were always higher there would be no need to worry
about salty HB water from entering.

And yet, the published tide tables show there is often a two foot
difference between Peconic Bay and Shinnecock Bay. Are you claiming
those are wrong too?

BTW, here's a quote from a recent magazine article:

"This problem [erosion in the canal] was solved by building tide gates
and, in 1919, a lock in the canal. The one-way tide gates -- pushed open
by high tides running south from Peconic Bay and pushed closed by high
tides running from the opposite direction -- ensure that enough water
flushes out of Peconic Bay into Shinnecock Bay to carry all the sand and
silt that would otherwise accumulate and block the canal. The lock,
rebuilt about 30 years ago, allows boats to be floated up or down to
meet the differing water levels at either end."
http://www.newsday.com/community/gui...ory-navigation




Q So, what is the issue

A jeffies thinks because locks have two gates anything with two gates is a
lock.

Isn't that what a lock is? A chamber with gates at either end? Every
comment on the facility describes it as a lock. Why do you insist it is
not?



Q Is jaxie a fumb duck?

A Yes


At least there's something we can all agree with!

[sigh] attempting discussion with jeffies is like attempting discussion with
junior high school dropout TV minister.