furling or "Stackpack" mainsail?
 

We've started the process of buying a newer and larger boat. One of the
major choices is the method of handling the mainsail. I have no experience
with either furling, lazyjack or "dutchman" systems. I'd appreciate any
comments or experiences with any or all these options. I'm leaning right now
to a "stackpack" type system.

Thanks.

Ed

On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 15:05:47 GMT, "Ed Thomas"
wrote:
We've started the process of buying a newer and larger boat. One of the
major choices is the method of handling the mainsail. I have no experience
with either furling, lazyjack or "dutchman" systems. I'd appreciate any
comments or experiences with any or all these options. I'm leaning right now
to a "stackpack" type system.
=====================================

I had a friend who installed a "stackpack" on a C&C 34. He liked it a
lot.

I used to install a variation of Lazy Jacks on my old Cal-34 when I
was cruising with the family. It was very effective in helping to
corral the mainsail on the drop. What we did was to run a loop of 3/8
shock cord around the boom, secured on each end. When ready to drop,
we would lead each spinnaker halyard aft around the shrouds and attach
to the shock cord on each side of the boom (the shock cord had small
loops tied into it for this purpose). By raising the halyards about
12 feet, the shock cord would be lifted up and create large triangles
into which the main would drop. This requires 2 spin halyards of
course, but it does eliminate the installation of permanent clutter,
and is easy to rig, not to mention inexpensive.

I've never heard the term "stackpack" with regards to a mainsail.
Are you referring to a standard sail that is flaked on the boom,
a Dutchman type system, an EasyJack or LazyJack system?
We have in-mast furling system and are pretty happy with it. It came
on our boat. But if I had it to do myself, I'd go for an in-boom
furler. If it jams in the deployed position, it least you can get your
sail down. If the in-mast system fails and the sail is stuck deployed,
you are kind of stuck. Ours got stuck halfway deployed once but
it was not the fault of the furling. A spare halyard got caught up while
reefing and jammed. Took a while to figure out the problem but a
mighty yank on the foot cleared the problem. Real down side of both
is $$$. Previous owner said that the in-mast furling cost him around
$25K. A friend is looking into in-boom systems and says it is quite
expensive as well although I don't recall the price. Personally, I like the
in-mast system but you can't point quite as well. My previous
boat had a standard setup with EasyJacks that I built myself. Inexpensive,
versatile and worked well.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Ed Thomas" wrote in message
news:fNacd.355$UX3.155@trndny03...
We've started the process of buying a newer and larger boat. One of the
major choices is the method of handling the mainsail. I have no experience
with either furling, lazyjack or "dutchman" systems. I'd appreciate any
comments or experiences with any or all these options. I'm leaning right
now
to a "stackpack" type system.

Thanks.

Ed

I have a stackpak like system and have been very happy with it. It comes with Lazy
Jacks. Raising sail is a matter of attaching the halyard, pulling a zipper line, and
raising. Releasing the halyard allows the sail to fall about 60% of the way, it
takes a minute of work to lower it the rest of the way.

The last time I was in Norwalk, I asked the "Dutchman" to look at my system to see if
his rig would work with my stackpak, but he didn't see a way to do it. (Frankly I
didn't understand why, but could argue.) If I had to choose, I'd go with the
stackpak, because that means you'll always be using a sail cover.



"Ed Thomas" wrote in message
news:fNacd.355$UX3.155@trndny03...
We've started the process of buying a newer and larger boat. One of the
major choices is the method of handling the mainsail. I have no experience
with either furling, lazyjack or "dutchman" systems. I'd appreciate any
comments or experiences with any or all these options. I'm leaning right now
to a "stackpack" type system.

Thanks.

Ed

On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 13:55:19 -0400, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:

I've never heard the term "stackpack" with regards to a mainsail.

=====================================

It's a proprietary system by Doyle Sails:

http://www.doylesails.com/sails-stackpackmain.htm

I have sailed extensively with both boom furling and lazyjack systems and have
very firm views, all prefaced with KISS - keep it simple ... .

In boom furling is a very expensive means of doing a job very badly for the
following reasons:

* You have no outhaul control, especially when the sail is reefed, and so you
cannot vary the sail shape and draft location to suit wind and swell
conditions. Yacht will not point.

* Boom and reefing assembly is very heavy which flattens sail in light weather
when you need maximum sail shape. Yacht will not sail well in light conditions.

* When reefing/furling boom must be absolutely horizontal or sail creaps along
furler and may jam due to bunching.

* Needs at least two people reef/furl - one to crank reefing winch (hard work)
and another to lower halyard at exactly the same pace, else sail will furl
unevenly and may jam. Also needs autohelm or a third person steering.

I would urge you to look at a jiffy reefing system (also called slab reefing) in
conjunction with lazyjacks or dutchman lines. I have never used the dutchman
system so cannot comment on it.

Lazyjacks are almost fault free although you do have to watch that batten ends
do no get caught in them when hoisting sail - just drop the sail five feet to
free them, then continue.

My next mainsail will probably have full length battens, oversize batcars or
similar, firm roach, and fit the existing lazyjack system.

Finally, make sure that the sail cover is large enough. In normal cruising mode
you will not drop and flake the main as neatly as your sailmaker, so you will
need more room in the sailcover. Some sailmakers, especially Hood, seem to put
a premium on making sailcovers very small and inobtrusive.

Considering size of investment proposed you might consider sailing (even
chartering) on yachts fitted with both systems to try them yourself. Just talk
around your local yacht clubs and some helpful souls may emerge.

Hope this helps.

Graeme
sv Leonidas

But you must admit, mainsail furling and considering racing or overall speed
aside, is easy on crew or those who single hand. For example, I sailed solo
from Annapolis through the South Pacific with mainsail furling and found in
the trades sailing wing and wing the only adjustment I had to make was to
the windvane. So, down wind sailing is somewhat simplified; don't you
think? Moreover, from what I've notice, Hinckley, plus several other major
boat builders have incorporated furling mainsails as an option. Although
somewhat bias, since I have mainsail furling and consider the advantage of
not going topside to furl sails or zip covers is more than just an
opportunity, but safety for me in all conditions, I totally agree that the
investment is substantial.

"Graeme Cook" wrote in message
...
| I have sailed extensively with both boom furling and lazyjack systems and
have
| very firm views, all prefaced with KISS - keep it simple ... .
|
| In boom furling is a very expensive means of doing a job very badly for
the
| following reasons:
|
| * You have no outhaul control, especially when the sail is reefed, and so
you
| cannot vary the sail shape and draft location to suit wind and swell
| conditions. Yacht will not point.
|
| * Boom and reefing assembly is very heavy which flattens sail in light
weather
| when you need maximum sail shape. Yacht will not sail well in light
conditions.
|
| * When reefing/furling boom must be absolutely horizontal or sail creaps
along
| furler and may jam due to bunching.
|
| * Needs at least two people reef/furl - one to crank reefing winch (hard
work)
| and another to lower halyard at exactly the same pace, else sail will furl
| unevenly and may jam. Also needs autohelm or a third person steering.
|
| I would urge you to look at a jiffy reefing system (also called slab
reefing) in
| conjunction with lazyjacks or dutchman lines. I have never used the
dutchman
| system so cannot comment on it.
|
| Lazyjacks are almost fault free although you do have to watch that batten
ends
| do no get caught in them when hoisting sail - just drop the sail five feet
to
| free them, then continue.
|
| My next mainsail will probably have full length battens, oversize batcars
or
| similar, firm roach, and fit the existing lazyjack system.
|
| Finally, make sure that the sail cover is large enough. In normal
cruising mode
| you will not drop and flake the main as neatly as your sailmaker, so you
will
| need more room in the sailcover. Some sailmakers, especially Hood, seem
to put
| a premium on making sailcovers very small and inobtrusive.
|
| Considering size of investment proposed you might consider sailing (even
| chartering) on yachts fitted with both systems to try them yourself. Just
talk
| around your local yacht clubs and some helpful souls may emerge.
|
| Hope this helps.
|
| Graeme
| sv Leonidas
|

I can't see a practical way to make the zipper cooperate with
the Dutchman lines so that deploying is just a matter of pulling
the zipper line. As far as always using a sailcover, I've never seen
any situation where a sailcover isn't used. Nothing perculiar about
stackpack in that regard.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
I have a stackpak like system and have been very happy with it. It comes
with Lazy
Jacks. Raising sail is a matter of attaching the halyard, pulling a
zipper line, and
raising. Releasing the halyard allows the sail to fall about 60% of the
way, it
takes a minute of work to lower it the rest of the way.

The last time I was in Norwalk, I asked the "Dutchman" to look at my
system to see if
his rig would work with my stackpak, but he didn't see a way to do it.
(Frankly I
didn't understand why, but could argue.) If I had to choose, I'd go with
the
stackpak, because that means you'll always be using a sail cover.



"Ed Thomas" wrote in message
news:fNacd.355$UX3.155@trndny03...
We've started the process of buying a newer and larger boat. One of the
major choices is the method of handling the mainsail. I have no
experience
with either furling, lazyjack or "dutchman" systems. I'd appreciate any
comments or experiences with any or all these options. I'm leaning right
now
to a "stackpack" type system.

Thanks.

Ed

"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
I can't see a practical way to make the zipper cooperate with
the Dutchman lines so that deploying is just a matter of pulling
the zipper line.

I was think the the Dutchman lines could be relaxed (another halyard?) so that they
would lie along the mast.

As far as always using a sailcover, I've never seen
any situation where a sailcover isn't used. Nothing perculiar about
stackpack in that regard.

If you have a StackPack you don't need a sailcover. The StackPack is a permanantly
attached cover with a zipper on the top.



Doug
s/v Callista

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
I have a stackpak like system and have been very happy with it. It comes
with Lazy
Jacks. Raising sail is a matter of attaching the halyard, pulling a
zipper line, and
raising. Releasing the halyard allows the sail to fall about 60% of the
way, it
takes a minute of work to lower it the rest of the way.

The last time I was in Norwalk, I asked the "Dutchman" to look at my
system to see if
his rig would work with my stackpak, but he didn't see a way to do it.
(Frankly I
didn't understand why, but could argue.) If I had to choose, I'd go with
the
stackpak, because that means you'll always be using a sail cover.



"Ed Thomas" wrote in message
news:fNacd.355$UX3.155@trndny03...
We've started the process of buying a newer and larger boat. One of the
major choices is the method of handling the mainsail. I have no
experience
with either furling, lazyjack or "dutchman" systems. I'd appreciate any
comments or experiences with any or all these options. I'm leaning right
now
to a "stackpack" type system.

Thanks.

Ed

This past season I have been singlehanding on my Ericson 38 using a UK
main with their "Lazy Cradle" version of the doyle "Stackpack", in
combination with a Harken Battcar Batten Traveler system. I could not
be more pleased.

The Battcar system has so little friction that I can raise the main
from the helm by hand, with the winch only needed for the last 6".
When it comes time to drop the main I can cast off the halyard and the
entire main drops inside the lazy jacks-sail cover.

Storing the main is a simple matter of running the zipper forward
along the sail cover, and moving the halyard from the headboard to the
storage location on the cover. Highly recommended.

Steve Christensen
S/V Rag Doll
Midland, MI

On 17 Oct 2004 16:43:24 -0700, (Steve Christensen)
wrote:
The Battcar system has so little friction that I can raise the main
from the helm by hand, with the winch only needed for the last 6".
When it comes time to drop the main I can cast off the halyard and the
entire main drops inside the lazy jacks-sail cover.

=============================================

I was out at Nantucket several years ago and watched a 70 something
ketch sail into the harbor that was obviously equipped with Battcars
and lazy jacks. They dropped and stowed both main and mizzen in the
space of about 30 seconds. It was almost unbelievable.

No I do not agree with what you are saying.

I have rarely had to reef in the trade winds zone, predictable 15 knots from
the SE, so that is not a good example.

Try crossing the Tasman Sea or sail anywhere near New Zealand where the weather
changes frequently and quickly. The ideal time to reef is usually ten minutes
ago, so the boat is then usually overpowering. My experience is that in-boom
furling is much more effort, needs more hands and is much slower than slab
reefing in any seaway. Get the topping lift tension wrong and the sail will
roll unevenly and simply jam in a partially reefed position. You cannot drop it
further so the only solution is to raise it (always in strong and freshening
winds), adjust the topping lift tension and start again. This risk outways the
minimal risks of a tethered crew going on deck to reef or secure a sailcover
zip.

Sailing on a friends yacht I recently had the experience of having the bolt rope
pull out of the mast track resulting in the largish mainsail of a Farr 38 being
attached only at the head, tack and clew in 30 knots gusting 40. With three
aboard, no autopilot, it was a real handful to get that sail down and stowed on
the boat. In my opinion bolt ropes are dangerous on a cruising yacht and I much
prefer batcars, slugs and old style sail slides that keep the mainsail firmly
attached to the mast at all times, even when dropped.

Maybe we will agree to disagree on this.

Fair winds

Graeme

Ed Thomas wrote:
We've started the process of buying a newer and larger boat. One of the
major choices is the method of handling the mainsail. I have no experience
with either furling, lazyjack or "dutchman" systems. I'd appreciate any
comments or experiences with any or all these options. I'm leaning right now
to a "stackpack" type system.

Thanks.

Ed




I have the Dutchman sytem, only because new main sail I purchased from a
sail broker, already had it included. I had no previous experience
with this system and went ahead with the installation. I have used it
for 2 seasons and I'm really not impressed with it or the support from
The Dutchman.

My main complaint is with the upper full battens catching at the
junction of the vertical reef line and the topping lift. Mostly the
problem is with the upper most full battens and the forward guide line.

When I talked to "The Dutchman" he basically blew me off, with and
attitude, that I'm not a sail maker or a potential 'new' customer at a
boat show.

I expect my complaints and problems could have been worked out if a sail
maker were talking to "The Dutchman".

When I contacted him about about the prospect of changing main over to
loose-foot, basically was told to ask my sailmaker to look for the
information in the Dutchman manual. The sailmaker I contacted had
installed several systems but had no such manual.

Sorry, I didn't mean to make this a tyraid.

I'm getting use to the system and finding my own solutions, but I would
never spend new sail money on the system and would go with a well
thought out lazy jack system.


Steve
s/v Good Intentions

A lot depends on how big a boat you're looking for. I drive a 36 footer
with inmast furler and it's very easy to use, singlehanded or with two.
Have used the system in anything up to 45 knots and sail furls easily,
thugh you do require the proper timing if a strong gust makes the sail
flap heavily.
I've also used the normal slab-reefing method and still prefer it for a
well manned boat, though I think above 36 feet you do need at least
three crew to make sure it works fine in all circumstances.

One thing to consider (as I've just experienced) is when you want to
take down the mast, the inmast furler is a lot heavier than a normal
one, so this is something to be aware of. If anything ever happens to
the mast, there's just one thing to do: get a good wire cutter to get
rid of it, as it is very heavy and will definitely damage the hull.

Other than that, inmast reefing lacks battens so this will be negative
on performance. But as always, it's a trade-off.

Victor

Thank you all for your experiences and opinions. At this point if two boats
were close I'd go with the stackpack option over in-mast furling. If a boat
is clearly superior, in-mast furling will not disqualify it from selection.
In-mast furling seems to be more susceptible to "operator error". What did
not appear here, and what I was nervous about, was a litany of horror
stories of furling disasters.
thanks again.
Ed

I have in-mast furling. What would you consider "operator error"?
What is this litany of horor stories about furling disasters. In my
experience I have come across a few folks that have had occational
furling problems, but nothing I would consider a litany of disasters.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Ed Thomas" wrote in message
news:dpFdd.5171$WN5.3753@trndny08...
Thank you all for your experiences and opinions. At this point if two
boats
were close I'd go with the stackpack option over in-mast furling. If a
boat
is clearly superior, in-mast furling will not disqualify it from
selection.
In-mast furling seems to be more susceptible to "operator error". What did
not appear here, and what I was nervous about, was a litany of horror
stories of furling disasters.
thanks again.
Ed

Steve wrote:
[...]

I have the Dutchman sytem, only because new main sail I purchased from a
sail broker, already had it included. I had no previous experience
with this system and went ahead with the installation. I have used it
for 2 seasons and I'm really not impressed with it or the support from
The Dutchman.

Beg your pardon please, but what or who is the dutchman?

--
With Kind regards,

Jelle Boomstra

Other than sasles folk, I'd heard only negatives concerning in-mast furling
systems. I had expected to hear the same sort of thing from this newsgroup.
The almost universally positive responses concerning the different sail
handling technologies is very reassuring.

Ed
"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
I have in-mast furling. What would you consider "operator error"?
What is this litany of horor stories about furling disasters. In my
experience I have come across a few folks that have had occational
furling problems, but nothing I would consider a litany of disasters.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Ed Thomas" wrote in message
news:dpFdd.5171$WN5.3753@trndny08...
Thank you all for your experiences and opinions. At this point if two
boats
were close I'd go with the stackpack option over in-mast furling. If a
boat
is clearly superior, in-mast furling will not disqualify it from
selection.
In-mast furling seems to be more susceptible to "operator error". What
did
not appear here, and what I was nervous about, was a litany of horror
stories of furling disasters.
thanks again.
Ed

On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 05:27:24 GMT, "Ed Thomas"
wrote:
Other than sasles folk, I'd heard only negatives concerning in-mast furling
systems. I had expected to hear the same sort of thing from this newsgroup.
The almost universally positive responses concerning the different sail
handling technologies is very reassuring.

==============================================

OK, here's a few negatives. Weight aloft (increased healing and
pitching forces); Battenless main (loss of sail area and pointing
ability); Repair difficulty (key components are hidden inside the
mast and may require unstepping for repair/maintenance); Potential for
jamming at inopportune moments (like in the middle of a line squall).

Should I go on?

I have in-mast furling and would perfer the "stackpack." I have never owned
a boat or been on one with a stackpack. So is this a case of the grass is
greener on the other side?

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 05:27:24 GMT, "Ed Thomas"
wrote:
Other than sasles folk, I'd heard only negatives concerning in-mast
furling
systems. I had expected to hear the same sort of thing from this
newsgroup.
The almost universally positive responses concerning the different sail
handling technologies is very reassuring.

==============================================

OK, here's a few negatives. Weight aloft (increased healing and
pitching forces); Battenless main (loss of sail area and pointing
ability); Repair difficulty (key components are hidden inside the
mast and may require unstepping for repair/maintenance); Potential for
jamming at inopportune moments (like in the middle of a line squall).

Should I go on?

Wayne.B wrote:

OK, here's a few negatives.
snip

Potential for
jamming at inopportune moments (like in the middle of a line squall).

oh yeah, don't ya just love it when that happens

On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 18:23:01 -0500, "Rick"
wrote:

I have in-mast furling and would perfer the "stackpack." I have never owned
a boat or been on one with a stackpack. So is this a case of the grass is
greener on the other side?

====================================

I don't think so. I've heard nothing but good things about stackpacks
and my own (limited) experience with lazy jack systems has been very
positive. I'd go with full length batttens and "Batt Cars" along with
it.

"Rick" wrote in message
...
I have in-mast furling and would perfer the "stackpack." I have never
owned
a boat or been on one with a stackpack. So is this a case of the grass is
greener on the other side?

I've got a UK stackpack with lazy jacks. For a long boom and good sized
mainsail it can't be beat for convenience. On a 30' boat the mainsail cover
isn't much, but on a 40' boat it sure is. A bonus is that you don't have to
find space to stow the cover.

Ours has the biggest zipper I have ever seen which really helps when you've
dropped the mainsail in a heap. The slider is an alloy and must be about 2"
square.

--
Evan Gatehouse

you'll have to rewrite my email address to get to me
ceilydh AT 3web dot net
(fools the spammers)