On 14 Oct 2004 12:28:53 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

sure, schlackoff, a 350# draw crossbow can fire twenty bolts a minute, while a
100# longbow can fire off nearer to 100 shafts a minute.

anything you say.

Lol. That's what YOU said, not me. I just said you're way off on the
firing rate, on the low side. It doesn't take 2 men 2 minutes to
re-fire a crossbow and it doesn't take 20 seconds re-fire a longbow.
Those numbers are gross exaggerations... just like your IQ.

Steve


(Steven Shelikoff)
Date: 10/13/2004 11:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 14 Oct 2004 01:29:49 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

schlackoff, weapons of war crossbows were not the kiddie toys you are
thinking
of. They had draws, I believe, of 250 to 350 pounds, and two men with a
windlass drew them back into firing position. Hard to keep up with a
longbow
with that.

two different weapons, with the tactical advantage going to longbows because
of
their range and rate of fire.

Jox, your rate of fire on each are way off on the low side. As usual,
you are wrong.

Steve


(Steven Shelikoff)
Date: 10/13/2004 8:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 13 Oct 2004 11:12:22 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

I was just repeating what I read in the Museum that had the extensive
display
of crossbows.

btw, IIRC it took two men most of two minutes to load and fire a crossbow,
while a longbowman could pump out three shafts a minute. That made the
lowbow
the artillery of its time and the crossbow the armor-busting handgranade.

Did that tidbit about repeating rates come from the museum also? It was
obviously written by someone who has no experience firing either a
crossbow or a longbow.

Steve


Jim Richardson
Date: 10/13/2004 5:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 13 Oct 2004 01:10:16 GMT,
JAXAshby wrote:
A real crossbow bolt would be a much more
effective projectile (accuracy, range, lethality, reliability)

as a weapon of war, the biggest crossbows ever had a range of about 30
feet, as compared to about 100 years for long bows. the crossbow,
however, could penetrate a knight's armor. crossbows were outlawed
for war (except against the infidels) by some pope.


I assure you, that "as a weapon of war" crossbows are not limited in
range to 30 feet. Nor were long bows limited to 100 yards, (ignoring
obvious typo)

A good yew longbow, is capable of penetrating iron mail, at a distance
of greater than 100 yards. It's effectiveness on unarmoured targets goes
beyond that range.

A strong crossbow, with a metal prod, of about 200lbs, is quite capable
of penetrating light mail at 50 yards (not feet) The heavier quarrel
does have less effective range than a longbow or modern compound bow
shooting longer, but lighter arrows. The main advantage of the crossbow
was the simplicity of use, a longbowman took years to develope the
needed skill, crossbows could be used with far less training and
practice.

The last use of crossbows in general warfare, rather than as indigenous
weapons (like the Hmong bamboo crossbows in Vietnam) or special forces
type uses, was in the 1894-95 sino-japanese war, where many of the
chinese troops were armed with repeating crossbows, they weren't
particularly powerful, but they were interesting devices none the less,
and they were certainly lethal at a far greater range than 30 ft



--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
Step by step, day by day, machine by machine, the penguins march forward.

"Parallax" wrote
Is a crossbow considered to be a firearm? Prob not. So.........

No, but it is a "dangerous weapon". A high ranking police official once
laughed at gang bangers carrying "Numb Nuts" sticks because, as "dangerous
weapons" they come under the same laws as firearms - with one major
exception. If you get caught with a gun of dubious legality the NRA might
come to your aid. So, if in doubt, carry the real thing.

On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 02:42:02 GMT, "MMC" wrote:

Would it be possible to fling a pestilence ridden dead animal over the stone
wall with this rig? Where would you keep this animal? I would think you'd
want it close at hand, but far enough down wind....

Launch it out of the hatch in the head. That why Peggie Hall places
such importance on proper venting G

R.

On 14 Oct 2004 12:28:53 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

sure, schlackoff, a 350# draw crossbow can fire twenty bolts a minute, while a
100# longbow can fire off nearer to 100 shafts a minute.

I don't think even Robin Hood could manage to pull, aim and release in
0.6 seconds, JAX. That would be premature archeration.

Try "six per minute" and not sustained, either, as it is very tiring
to volley arrows. If you wanted to "shoot your load", a modern longbow
can loose up to 14 arrows in a minute (see

http://www.channel4.com/history/micr.../longbow1.html

but if you got six a minute for 20 minutes at say, Agincourt or other
real-life battles where the longbow was the primary offensive weapon,
you would be doing very well indeed.

R.

On 14 Oct 2004 12:34:37 GMT,
JAXAshby wrote:
well, jimmy, it is like this. I trust a museum for valid information
more than I trust you.

notice how you dropped the size of the war grade crossbow from 350#
draw to 150#, thusly dropping its already short range stopping power
to an even shorter distance and it penetration power by 60%. you also
dropped its reload time from two minutes to 3/4 of a minute.


since you were the one that came up with the 350lb figure in the first
place, I dropped nothing.... Jax evasion noted

Since you were the one that came up with the 2 min number in the first
place, I dropped nothing. further Jax evasion noted.


Your need to belittle those who disagree with you is also noted.


I agree that a museum would be a good source of info on crossbows, as
are several books, I don't know how much your blinders will let you see
though.

I suggest you not consider a crossbow as a defensive weapon. the
crossbow lost out as a weapon of war long ago, and the longbow lost
out first to artillery in a French battle in 1369.


Crossbows, despite your claim to the contrary, outlasted longbows as a
weapon in general use, in both europe, and China.

A crossbow, especially a modern design, makes a fine defensive weapon
within it's limits, which are similar in many ways to a muzzle loading
firearm. Except that the crossbow is silent in operation, usually less
restricted by law, and is also usable for tasks such as throwing a line.




--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
When the DM smiles, it's already too late.

On 14 Oct 2004 12:36:57 GMT,
JAXAshby wrote:
jim a crossbow of long ago would so easily go through metal armor of
the time at a distance of up to 30 feet, that a pope outlawed the use
of crossbows except against the infidels. the pope did not outlaw
longbows.


Finally, some accurate facts from you. But again, only half the story.

Yes, a bodkin point would penetrate mail at 30ft, and at 30 yards, and
some distance beyond. Yes, pope Innocent II declared the crossbow
"ateful to God and unfit for Christians." sometime in the 12th centyury.
What you seem to miss, is that he did so, because the crossbow leveled
the field wrt the armoured knight. Allowing any peasant to kill an
expensively trained and armoured knight.




--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
Ahhh... I see the ****-up fairy has visited us again.

On 14 Oct 2004 12:41:03 GMT,
JAXAshby wrote:
a hunting knife took even less training and worked at an even less distance.

anyone trying to "protect" their boat with a crossbow from 17 year old pirates
in loin cloths carrying rifles is taking a penknife to the fight. One wild
shot going way wide of the rifle toting boy and you bought the farm.



Not relevent to my demolishing your rediculous claims crossbows.

Would I prefer to have a decent firearm than a crossbow in most
circumstances? heck yes! But the subject began as a way around some of
the rediculous anti-gun laws in some jurisdictions.

schlackoff, weapons of war crossbows were not the kiddie toys you are
thinking of. They had draws, I believe, of 250 to 350 pounds, and two
men with a windlass drew them back into firing position. Hard to keep
up with a longbow with that.

two different weapons, with the tactical advantage going to longbows
because of their range and rate of fire.



Two different weapons alright, it sounds as if you are confusing a
crossbow ( a man portable, single person weapon) with a ballista ( a
crew served weapon)

Windlasses were common on some crossbows, particularly on the larger
ones used in sieges. But the "common" crossbow, was usually cocked with
a stirrup, or a goats foot lever. Some had a crank mechanism in the
stock, and a removeable handle like a winch (hey! back on topic! but
those were fairly uncommon, being relatively expensive to make, and the
main benefit of the crossbow was low cost, and the low training
requirements compared to other missile weapons of the pre-firearms era.




--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
Who was the sick-minded SOB who called it a "lisp"?
"What's wrong with you?" "I litthhp."
"You what?" "I *litthhp* ."










--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
Instruction ends in the schoolroom -- but education
ends only with life. -- Publilius Syrus.

What are "Numb Nuts" sticks? Do you mean numchucks?

Doug
s/v Callista

"Vito" wrote in message
...
"Parallax" wrote
Is a crossbow considered to be a firearm? Prob not. So.........

No, but it is a "dangerous weapon". A high ranking police official once
laughed at gang bangers carrying "Numb Nuts" sticks because, as "dangerous
weapons" they come under the same laws as firearms - with one major
exception. If you get caught with a gun of dubious legality the NRA might
come to your aid. So, if in doubt, carry the real thing.

rhys, I was taking schlackoff's stupid statement to its conclusion.

real figures for bows as weapons of war were about one bolt even two minutes
for the crossbow, and about 6 shafts a minute for the longbow. the crossbow
had a net effective range of about 30 feet, the longbow about 100 yards.

rhys
Date: 10/14/2004 11:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 14 Oct 2004 12:28:53 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

sure, schlackoff, a 350# draw crossbow can fire twenty bolts a minute, while
a
100# longbow can fire off nearer to 100 shafts a minute.

I don't think even Robin Hood could manage to pull, aim and release in
0.6 seconds, JAX. That would be premature archeration.

Try "six per minute" and not sustained, either, as it is very tiring
to volley arrows. If you wanted to "shoot your load", a modern longbow
can loose up to 14 arrows in a minute (see

http://www.channel4.com/history/micr.../longbow1.html

but if you got six a minute for 20 minutes at say, Agincourt or other
real-life battles where the longbow was the primary offensive weapon,
you would be doing very well indeed.

R.

[head shakes]

Jim Richardson
Date: 10/14/2004 2:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 14 Oct 2004 12:34:37 GMT,
JAXAshby wrote:
well, jimmy, it is like this. I trust a museum for valid information
more than I trust you.

notice how you dropped the size of the war grade crossbow from 350#
draw to 150#, thusly dropping its already short range stopping power
to an even shorter distance and it penetration power by 60%. you also
dropped its reload time from two minutes to 3/4 of a minute.


since you were the one that came up with the 350lb figure in the first
place, I dropped nothing.... Jax evasion noted

Since you were the one that came up with the 2 min number in the first
place, I dropped nothing. further Jax evasion noted.


Your need to belittle those who disagree with you is also noted.


I agree that a museum would be a good source of info on crossbows, as
are several books, I don't know how much your blinders will let you see
though.

I suggest you not consider a crossbow as a defensive weapon. the
crossbow lost out as a weapon of war long ago, and the longbow lost
out first to artillery in a French battle in 1369.


Crossbows, despite your claim to the contrary, outlasted longbows as a
weapon in general use, in both europe, and China.

A crossbow, especially a modern design, makes a fine defensive weapon
within it's limits, which are similar in many ways to a muzzle loading
firearm. Except that the crossbow is silent in operation, usually less
restricted by law, and is also usable for tasks such as throwing a line.




--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
When the DM smiles, it's already too late.