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The change in curvature is even more pronounced as a sailboat goes
from hull speed to planing speed, though. bull****,marke. now, go back to study hall. lunch period isn't for 45 minutes yet. geesh. |
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In article ,
says... dood, there ain't no asymptote no where. duh. never let it be said you are concerned with reality, merk. In any case, I was apparently more concerned with my English and typing classes than you. Mark Borgerson From: Mark Borgerson Date: 9/5/2004 7:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: In article , says... mark, that ain't no asymptote. duh. Duh! Perhaps you'll re-read the part below and find I never said it was an asymptote. I said there are inflection points in the power speed curve. The only asymptote I've mentioned is the one at c. Mark Borgerson From: Mark Borgerson Date: 9/3/2004 11:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: In article , says... Until you get past Mach 1, at least! ;-) after that point, there are some inflection points in the power/speed curve, IIRC. no, you don't remember any such thing. unless of course you were stoned out of your gourd in your fourth sophomore year in college. Whoa! You must have me mixed up with someone who went to UC Berkely in the 60's. My sophomore year was at UC Davis in '65 and we weren't smoking much grass at all! (although there were probaby a lot of students figuring out how to optimize the yield---Davis being a world-class agricultural school) ;-) As for inflection points, consult the definition at http://www.math.com/tables/derivatives/extrema.htm and look at the following crude graphic * * * * P * * O * * W * * E * R * * ************************************************* ******************* 0 0.5 1.0 1.5 2.0 MACH NUMBER There is an inflection point at about Mach 1. However there is no point on the graph where you get an increase in speed without an increase in power. If you look at the engine data at http://www.voodoo.cz/hornet/info.html you will find that the F-18 engines develop about 14,000 pounds thrust at full military power and 21,000 pounds at full afterburner. Yet it takes full military power to get to mach 1, but with 50% more power, you can end up at mach 1.8. Thus the inflection point just past mach 1. (Like most modern military jets prior to the F-22, the F-18 cannot sustain supersonic speeds in level flight without afterburners.) If you have more detailed power/speed curves for the transonic region, feel free to post some links to enlighten us. Mark Borgerson |
mark, you said 'asymptote", and none exists. *that* is bad English?
It seems to me more likely that you didn't have a clew what the word meant, and you used it anyway to "prove" to one and all what a genius you are. remember, the term entered this thread when some fraud claiming to be a college professor totally misused the word. mark, were that fraud? From: Mark Borgerson Date: 9/6/2004 1:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: In article , says... dood, there ain't no asymptote no where. duh. never let it be said you are concerned with reality, merk. In any case, I was apparently more concerned with my English and typing classes than you. Mark Borgerson From: Mark Borgerson Date: 9/5/2004 7:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: In article , says... mark, that ain't no asymptote. duh. Duh! Perhaps you'll re-read the part below and find I never said it was an asymptote. I said there are inflection points in the power speed curve. The only asymptote I've mentioned is the one at c. Mark Borgerson From: Mark Borgerson Date: 9/3/2004 11:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: In article , says... Until you get past Mach 1, at least! ;-) after that point, there are some inflection points in the power/speed curve, IIRC. no, you don't remember any such thing. unless of course you were stoned out of your gourd in your fourth sophomore year in college. Whoa! You must have me mixed up with someone who went to UC Berkely in the 60's. My sophomore year was at UC Davis in '65 and we weren't smoking much grass at all! (although there were probaby a lot of students figuring out how to optimize the yield---Davis being a world-class agricultural school) ;-) As for inflection points, consult the definition at http://www.math.com/tables/derivatives/extrema.htm and look at the following crude graphic * * * * P * * O * * W * * E * R * * ************************************************* ******************* 0 0.5 1.0 1.5 2.0 MACH NUMBER There is an inflection point at about Mach 1. However there is no point on the graph where you get an increase in speed without an increase in power. If you look at the engine data at http://www.voodoo.cz/hornet/info.html you will find that the F-18 engines develop about 14,000 pounds thrust at full military power and 21,000 pounds at full afterburner. Yet it takes full military power to get to mach 1, but with 50% more power, you can end up at mach 1.8. Thus the inflection point just past mach 1. (Like most modern military jets prior to the F-22, the F-18 cannot sustain supersonic speeds in level flight without afterburners.) If you have more detailed power/speed curves for the transonic region, feel free to post some links to enlighten us. Mark Borgerson |
In article ,
says... mark, you said 'asymptote", and none exists. *that* is bad English? Is that a question? I guess it is bad English to mix single and double quotation marks around a word. It seems to me more likely that you didn't have a clew what the word meant, and you used it anyway to "prove" to one and all what a genius you are. Wow-- a real sailorly pun---substituting 'clew' for 'clue'! Are you sure you aren't a few sheets to the wind? As for 'asymptote', I did post a reference to a web site defining the three types of asymptote. In case you missed it, here it is again: http://www.math.com/tables/derivatives/extrema.htm The speed of light would seem to fit the definition of a vertical asymptote, since no KNOWN amount of power will move a boat's speed past that line. However, if you have evidence to the contrary, feel free to share! remember, the term entered this thread when some fraud claiming to be a college professor totally misused the word. mark, were that fraud? If you mean was I the person claiming to be a college professor, the answer is no. If you mean 'Was that fraud' I don't know because I don't know the person who posted that. You really should ask your ISP why it keeps dropping words from your postings---sometimes rendering them incomprehensible. Mark Borgerson SNIP |
yup, you be that fraud.
From: Mark Borgerson Date: 9/6/2004 11:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: In article , says... mark, you said 'asymptote", and none exists. *that* is bad English? Is that a question? I guess it is bad English to mix single and double quotation marks around a word. It seems to me more likely that you didn't have a clew what the word meant, and you used it anyway to "prove" to one and all what a genius you are. Wow-- a real sailorly pun---substituting 'clew' for 'clue'! Are you sure you aren't a few sheets to the wind? As for 'asymptote', I did post a reference to a web site defining the three types of asymptote. In case you missed it, here it is again: http://www.math.com/tables/derivatives/extrema.htm The speed of light would seem to fit the definition of a vertical asymptote, since no KNOWN amount of power will move a boat's speed past that line. However, if you have evidence to the contrary, feel free to share! remember, the term entered this thread when some fraud claiming to be a college professor totally misused the word. mark, were that fraud? If you mean was I the person claiming to be a college professor, the answer is no. If you mean 'Was that fraud' I don't know because I don't know the person who posted that. You really should ask your ISP why it keeps dropping words from your postings---sometimes rendering them incomprehensible. Mark Borgerson SNIP |
In article ,
says... Jax, yup, you be that fraud. You really ouught to talk to your ISP. They keep substituting the words of a petulant teenager suffering from hormonal overdose for your cogent, well-supported arguments. Hey---I wonder if it works both ways?............ *********************************************** Yo Jax! I not be dat professor Man! Only in de compote in yo hwed Is dat asymptote sumpin' u see cummin' from my machine to dem words u tink u red! Wot u Red 'n wot I sed seems to be like majic changed to wat u like. But like dat dutch boy an d' dyke-- It's time to pull it out and see wat color your thumb be! Lick it 'n switch it, baby! ************************************************** *** Hmmm, I wonder if AOL translated that properly! Jax must be Google-groups deprived, or he would have the attributions straight by now. Mark Borgerson From: Mark Borgerson Date: 9/6/2004 11:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: In article , says... mark, you said 'asymptote", and none exists. *that* is bad English? Is that a question? I guess it is bad English to mix single and double quotation marks around a word. It seems to me more likely that you didn't have a clew what the word meant, and you used it anyway to "prove" to one and all what a genius you are. Wow-- a real sailorly pun---substituting 'clew' for 'clue'! Are you sure you aren't a few sheets to the wind? As for 'asymptote', I did post a reference to a web site defining the three types of asymptote. In case you missed it, here it is again: http://www.math.com/tables/derivatives/extrema.htm The speed of light would seem to fit the definition of a vertical asymptote, since no KNOWN amount of power will move a boat's speed past that line. However, if you have evidence to the contrary, feel free to share! remember, the term entered this thread when some fraud claiming to be a college professor totally misused the word. mark, were that fraud? If you mean was I the person claiming to be a college professor, the answer is no. If you mean 'Was that fraud' I don't know because I don't know the person who posted that. You really should ask your ISP why it keeps dropping words from your postings---sometimes rendering them incomprehensible. Mark Borgerson SNIP |
mark give up. the curve of hull speed has no asymptote.
that makes you a fraud. From: Mark Borgerson Date: 9/7/2004 12:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: In article , says... Jax, yup, you be that fraud. You really ouught to talk to your ISP. They keep substituting the words of a petulant teenager suffering from hormonal overdose for your cogent, well-supported arguments. Hey---I wonder if it works both ways?............ *********************************************** Yo Jax! I not be dat professor Man! Only in de compote in yo hwed Is dat asymptote sumpin' u see cummin' from my machine to dem words u tink u red! Wot u Red 'n wot I sed seems to be like majic changed to wat u like. But like dat dutch boy an d' dyke-- It's time to pull it out and see wat color your thumb be! Lick it 'n switch it, baby! ************************************************* **** Hmmm, I wonder if AOL translated that properly! Jax must be Google-groups deprived, or he would have the attributions straight by now. Mark Borgerson From: Mark Borgerson Date: 9/6/2004 11:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: In article , says... mark, you said 'asymptote", and none exists. *that* is bad English? Is that a question? I guess it is bad English to mix single and double quotation marks around a word. It seems to me more likely that you didn't have a clew what the word meant, and you used it anyway to "prove" to one and all what a genius you are. Wow-- a real sailorly pun---substituting 'clew' for 'clue'! Are you sure you aren't a few sheets to the wind? As for 'asymptote', I did post a reference to a web site defining the three types of asymptote. In case you missed it, here it is again: http://www.math.com/tables/derivatives/extrema.htm The speed of light would seem to fit the definition of a vertical asymptote, since no KNOWN amount of power will move a boat's speed past that line. However, if you have evidence to the contrary, feel free to share! remember, the term entered this thread when some fraud claiming to be a college professor totally misused the word. mark, were that fraud? If you mean was I the person claiming to be a college professor, the answer is no. If you mean 'Was that fraud' I don't know because I don't know the person who posted that. You really should ask your ISP why it keeps dropping words from your postings---sometimes rendering them incomprehensible. Mark Borgerson SNIP |
Skipper wrote:
On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:46:31 GMT, Dan Best wrote: This weekend in Olympia, Washington State, is the Harbor Days festival. During Harbor Days are the well-known tug boat races. As a sailor, I understand bow waves, hull speeds, and displacement hulls. It is a pretty good bet that the 70' tug will beat the 35' tug. I think the longer tug could win with the engine just above an idle. But it is really amazing to watch the bow wave dynamics in action. A 30 foot tug with 600 horsepower can build a HUGE bow wave and still not pass its hull speed. The waves generated in this race are far greater than the waves from cargo ships that are 10 times as long and 1,000 times larger. Boring to watch, after a very short while. The spectacle of this thread, that is. Just because a bulldozer is pushing a large pile of dirt does not mean that it has failed to exceed hull speed. Hull speed is only a theoretically derived number. It is a gauge of relative numerical relationships; it is not something like the speed of light, or even the speed of sound. It's kind of like saying hands have 5 fingers, and figuring their average length. It is not a limit, except perhaps to fuel efficiency calculations. Does bring to mind the Hobie style catamaran planing concept, though. It's kind of like squeezing a watermelon seed in snotty fingers. We need to remember there are several different factors affecting drag and dynamic forces at work in various hull types and speed regimes. Fuel consumption in a sailboat is possible to imply, but impossible to measure. I prefer to ponder the "Stove pipe submarine" and it's wake, for a starting point. It will lead us towards some interesting insights. Submarines are theoretically detectable from orbit by wake analysis, amid the chaos of wave noise. Well, it's not noise, folks, its only chaotic because we cannot measure the causative forces in sufficient detail, and that is all. If you examine bible message analysis, it soon becomes obvious that you can find any message, in any language, even looking for french in a chinese translation. It all depends on generating the right key, and mowing enough grass, as we say in the processor hall air conditioning department. Anyway, if a submarine was constructed like a pipe with a narrowed internal passage containing it's propellor, would it produce a wake, especially with a hubless fan drive? When you push against the water with a paddle, what is (are) the forces contributing to the thrust reaction developed? An amount of energy equivalent to the mass*velocity/ friction and delta vee of the vessel must be left behind in the water. It's mechanism of transformation must simply be rationalized. See, at the front of the sp sub, there must be a declivity in the water as large as the hill of water that would be left behind, and turbulent water left behind in the wake, whether organized into visible waves, as in a "normal" wake, or not, must non the less be transformable into friction heating of the water. It is a question of looking at the turbulence through the right filters, like catching a boomer by it's straight lines on the surface / filter amidst the chop. This is an example of energy being expressed purely as information analysis, or a set of data passed through an analytical filter, heating it. Time is the governing constant [?] and computational capacity limits the keys. The sump pump in the pare bit buffer must be cooled, or its conductors overheat. The wake formation of the sp sub would seem to double it's "hull speed" by removing the bulge in the middle of the vessel as it pushes through the water, or in the case of the sp sub, as it sucks itself along. Could that principle be applied to a surface piercing vessel on plane, like a sea-doo? Fuel for sailboats is free as the wind. Petroleum is fuel for engine boats. Whatever happened to the lye and aluminum refillable battery? could it be said to be in a sense hypergolic, and using water as a catalyst? Terry K Rod and reel? |
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