On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 05:08:53 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 00:06:13 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jan 2014 11:56:08 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jan 2014 09:50:54 -0700, slide wrote:

On 1/19/2014 6:17 AM, Bruce in Bangkok wrote:


And thus speaks the Pseudo Sailor. Who knows all about sailing. Why,
he once sailed, single handed too, all the way down the bay to anchor
for the night on a mud bank.


I skimmed the article but it seemed to me that the boat was poorly made.
A wave against a 'window' was all it took for the window to leak, lose
trim and other wave / ocean action put the boat out of commission. It
also seems that the rudders were attached to the stock by small set
screws. That on a vessel meant to voyage across oceans?

I was greatly impressed by one guy going for a swim under the boat. I
did sail in this area at around that time and the water is COLD.

Overall, though, it's not the behavior of the crew which I thought
deficient but the construction of the boat.

Agree. There might be a warning there about embarking on an offshore
trip with a boat of unknown "reputation."
It looks like the quality issues went beyond the set screw, which was
handled.

===

Clearly there were some issues with the boat but I believe they made a
very foolish choice to go offshore from New Jersey, in the middle of
winter, into the teeth of several North Atlantic gales. It would have
been far more prudent to go down the east coast via Chesapeake Bay
and the ICW at least as far as North Carolina. From NC you assess
the weather and wait for a window when you can cross to Bermuda with
reasonable safety. However in a boat that size, in the middle of
winter, it is far safer to go all the way to Florida via the ICW and
then head down through the Bahamas on the so called "Thornless Path"
to the Caribbean. Having made the winter trip through the Bahamas
several times in a 50 footer, even that route is something less than a
walk in the park.

I don't know what their sailing background is, so I can't speak to
that. That course and those weather conditions are "unsafe?"
Appears to me they didn't run into anything but one wave that disabled
steering. Then they also had batten problems and electrical.
Seems the boat quality was the main issue.
Even taking your southern route may have broken that boat.
But you know better than I about sailing conditions.

===

The North Atlantic in the winter time is a dangerous place. Water
temperatures are very cold, and there are usually gale force winds 20
to 30% of the time. The biggest problem however for a small boat is
that there is no nearby shelter if conditions deteriorate. You are
fully committed to being "out there". Even large, well crewed boats
in top condition get into trouble once in awhile in circumstances like
that. It only takes one major gear failure to become life
threatening, and there are a lot of things that can go wrong.

On 1/19/2014 10:06 PM, Wayne.B wrote:

===

Clearly there were some issues with the boat but I believe they made a
very foolish choice to go offshore from New Jersey, in the middle of
winter, into the teeth of several North Atlantic gales. It would have
been far more prudent to go down the east coast via Chesapeake Bay
and the ICW at least as far as North Carolina. From NC you assess
the weather and wait for a window when you can cross to Bermuda with
reasonable safety. However in a boat that size, in the middle of
winter, it is far safer to go all the way to Florida via the ICW and
then head down through the Bahamas on the so called "Thornless Path"
to the Caribbean. Having made the winter trip through the Bahamas
several times in a 50 footer, even that route is something less than a
walk in the park.


I can't agree with you because I did exactly this once myself. My
information was that the ICW was difficult to navigate and not cleared
at my almost 6' draft until south of Hampton, VA and even then it can
get dicey. While i have no personal experience in the ICW north of VA, I
can believe that a huge cat like this would be most difficult to deal
with inland. OTOH, heavy weather of 40kts isn't so extreme as that one
would expect it'd disable the boat as it did. I mean, reading the
narrative quickly as I did, it seemed to me that the boat fell apart
very much like a pro captain I met once described an O'Day doing the
same thing under him in lesser conditions.

To be fair, though, the O'Day wasn't ever represented as an offshore
vessel while presumably the cat was. I hit 40 kt conditions and while I
didn't enjoy the ride, nothing broke.

On 1/20/2014 6:48 AM, Wayne.B wrote:

===

The North Atlantic in the winter time is a dangerous place. Water
temperatures are very cold, and there are usually gale force winds 20
to 30% of the time. The biggest problem however for a small boat is
that there is no nearby shelter if conditions deteriorate. You are
fully committed to being "out there". Even large, well crewed boats
in top condition get into trouble once in awhile in circumstances like
that. It only takes one major gear failure to become life
threatening, and there are a lot of things that can go wrong.


Surprisingly, the water temps where this occurred weren't that cold when
I have been there. That is, it's not like ME or Canada but it doesn't
make for nice swimming either. As I posted, that guy was brave going
under to do the repairs of the steering.

If one part failed, I'd agree with your contention that even well crewed
/ found boats can get into trouble at 30 - 40 kts but this boat didn't
have a system failure but seemed to disassemble as it foundered around
out there.

I've been on a few cats as a guest and have been impressed with both the
vast living quarters and accompanying luxury but also the light
construction I observed.

At one yard I saw a 60' cat delivered from South Africa to its US owners
needing some major rebuilding. AFAIK, the trip was non-eventful so only
normal conditions resulted in a brand new boat needing major hull and
rudder work.

On Monday, January 20, 2014 9:29:12 AM UTC-5, slide wrote:
On 1/19/2014 10:06 PM, Wayne.B wrote:



===



Clearly there were some issues with the boat but I believe they made a

very foolish choice to go offshore from New Jersey, in the middle of

winter, into the teeth of several North Atlantic gales. It would have

been far more prudent to go down the east coast via Chesapeake Bay

and the ICW at least as far as North Carolina. From NC you assess

the weather and wait for a window when you can cross to Bermuda with

reasonable safety. However in a boat that size, in the middle of

winter, it is far safer to go all the way to Florida via the ICW and

then head down through the Bahamas on the so called "Thornless Path"

to the Caribbean. Having made the winter trip through the Bahamas

several times in a 50 footer, even that route is something less than a

walk in the park.





I can't agree with you because I did exactly this once myself. My

information was that the ICW was difficult to navigate and not cleared

at my almost 6' draft until south of Hampton, VA and even then it can

get dicey. While i have no personal experience in the ICW north of VA, I

can believe that a huge cat like this would be most difficult to deal

with inland. OTOH, heavy weather of 40kts isn't so extreme as that one

would expect it'd disable the boat as it did. I mean, reading the

narrative quickly as I did, it seemed to me that the boat fell apart

very much like a pro captain I met once described an O'Day doing the

same thing under him in lesser conditions.



To be fair, though, the O'Day wasn't ever represented as an offshore

vessel while presumably the cat was. I hit 40 kt conditions and while I

didn't enjoy the ride, nothing broke.

Sorry but your information about the ICW is wrong, 6' should be no problem. 7'+ is doable if you play the tides. And a cat that size should have no problems running the ICW with a competent person at the helm.

On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 12:19:45 -0800 (PST), "Capt.Bill"
wrote:

On Monday, January 20, 2014 9:29:12 AM UTC-5, slide wrote:
On 1/19/2014 10:06 PM, Wayne.B wrote:



===



Clearly there were some issues with the boat but I believe they made a

very foolish choice to go offshore from New Jersey, in the middle of

winter, into the teeth of several North Atlantic gales. It would have

been far more prudent to go down the east coast via Chesapeake Bay

and the ICW at least as far as North Carolina. From NC you assess

the weather and wait for a window when you can cross to Bermuda with

reasonable safety. However in a boat that size, in the middle of

winter, it is far safer to go all the way to Florida via the ICW and

then head down through the Bahamas on the so called "Thornless Path"

to the Caribbean. Having made the winter trip through the Bahamas

several times in a 50 footer, even that route is something less than a

walk in the park.





I can't agree with you because I did exactly this once myself. My

information was that the ICW was difficult to navigate and not cleared

at my almost 6' draft until south of Hampton, VA and even then it can

get dicey. While i have no personal experience in the ICW north of VA, I

can believe that a huge cat like this would be most difficult to deal

with inland. OTOH, heavy weather of 40kts isn't so extreme as that one

would expect it'd disable the boat as it did. I mean, reading the

narrative quickly as I did, it seemed to me that the boat fell apart

very much like a pro captain I met once described an O'Day doing the

same thing under him in lesser conditions.



To be fair, though, the O'Day wasn't ever represented as an offshore

vessel while presumably the cat was. I hit 40 kt conditions and while I

didn't enjoy the ride, nothing broke.

Sorry but your information about the ICW is wrong, 6' should be no problem. 7'+ is doable if you play the tides. And a cat that size should have no problems running the ICW with a competent person at the helm.


===

Yes. You have to go outside down the New Jersey coast but that is a
one day run for most people, and it's easy to wait at Atlantic
Highlands for a suitable weather window. After that everything is
deep water to Norfolk, VA. South of Norfolk there are large tug
boats and motor yachts that navigate all the way to Moorehead City, NC
which is the traditional jumping off spot for Bermuda.

On 1/20/2014 3:23 PM, Wayne.B wrote:

===

Yes. You have to go outside down the New Jersey coast but that is a
one day run for most people, and it's easy to wait at Atlantic
Highlands for a suitable weather window. After that everything is
deep water to Norfolk, VA. South of Norfolk there are large tug
boats and motor yachts that navigate all the way to Moorehead City, NC
which is the traditional jumping off spot for Bermuda.


I've done it south of Hampton.

I guess I strayed off my point that I made the same decision as these
guys did when faced with the same conditions at the same time of year. I
too hit some of these 'noreaster things and while the going wasn't
pleasant, I, single handing a 42' Tayana with no auto pilot, managed and
didn't consider myself a hero for having done so.

IMO, the difference was that my boat didn't disassemble in moderately
heavy weather as this one did. Had I faced the structural issues these
guys did, I may not have survived. The key isn't the weather or decision
but the integrity of the vessel.

On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 08:25:16 -0700, slide wrote:

The key isn't the weather or decision
but the integrity of the vessel.

===

You're right about that but I'd argue against testing the integrity of
the boat if you don't need to. Even well built boats have an
increased probability of trouble in storm force conditions. The ocean
has a way of finding the weak spots.

Another well known issue is that the boats tend to be stronger than
the people. I've been on two different boats where owners broke ribs
after being tossed across the cabin down below.

On 1/21/2014 10:07 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 08:25:16 -0700, slide wrote:

The key isn't the weather or decision
but the integrity of the vessel.

===

You're right about that but I'd argue against testing the integrity of
the boat if you don't need to. Even well built boats have an
increased probability of trouble in storm force conditions. The ocean
has a way of finding the weak spots.

Another well known issue is that the boats tend to be stronger than
the people. I've been on two different boats where owners broke ribs
after being tossed across the cabin down below.

Good point there. I have a chipped front tooth from one of my trips
across the cabin.

On Sat, 18 Jan 2014 12:21:22 -0800 (PST), "Capt.Bill"
wrote:

http://www.sailfeed.com/2014/01/heli...1/#comment-730

===

More information and commentary he

http://www.practical-sailor.com/blog/The-Short-Brutish-Life-of-a-Luxury-Cat-11328-1.html?ET=practicalsailor:e21229:102086a:&st=email

On 1/22/2014 5:44 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jan 2014 12:21:22 -0800 (PST), "Capt.Bill"
wrote:

http://www.sailfeed.com/2014/01/heli...1/#comment-730

===

More information and commentary he

http://www.practical-sailor.com/blog/The-Short-Brutish-Life-of-a-Luxury-Cat-11328-1.html?ET=practicalsailor:e21229:102086a:&st=email

Confirms my comments earlier that the boat was a three quarter million
dollar O'Day.