On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 22:21:44 -0500, Marc Auslander
wrote:

Bruce writes:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 15:41:55 -0500, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·"
åke wrote:


...

At any rate, since I crimped the connectors tighter it hasn't missed a beat.

I am just soooo freaking smart!!! Perhaps this might assist somebody else who
has been experiencing the same or similar symptoms.

Loose connections? And you are a genius to have fixed them?

Aren't you the guy who is described as having a few loose screws?

--
Cheers,
Bruce

In the computer and auto electrical repair worlds, I live by the truth
that "it's always the connector!" I see it works on boats as well :-)

Years ago, in the Apple II days, I used to "fix" computers by pulling
the cards out and pressing them back in a couple of times. Sort of
scratched the corrosion off I guess. A really serious defect was
sometimes cured by rubbing a rubber eraser across the contacts.
--
Cheers,
Bruce

On Thu, 20 Dec 2012 09:28:34 -0500, Gogarty
wrote:

In article ,
says...


On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 22:21:44 -0500, Marc Auslander
wrote:

Bruce writes:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 15:41:55 -0500, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·"
åke wrote:


...

At any rate, since I crimped the connectors tighter it hasn't missed a
beat.

I am just soooo freaking smart!!! Perhaps this might assist somebody else
who
has been experiencing the same or similar symptoms.

Loose connections? And you are a genius to have fixed them?

Aren't you the guy who is described as having a few loose screws?

--
Cheers,
Bruce

In the computer and auto electrical repair worlds, I live by the truth
that "it's always the connector!" I see it works on boats as well :-)

Years ago, in the Apple II days, I used to "fix" computers by pulling
the cards out and pressing them back in a couple of times. Sort of
scratched the corrosion off I guess. A really serious defect was
sometimes cured by rubbing a rubber eraser across the contacts.
--
Cheers,
Bruce
Back in the days of my TRS-80 computer, when it started getting flaky, pull
all the cables and wipe the male connectors with a red rubber pencil erases.
Worked great.

As for the fridge, did you evacuate all the cooland and recharge? You could
have water vapor in there.

That was someone else fixing the fridge.

But your question brings up something... The American refrigeration
people I've worked with all insisted on long periods of vacuuming
systems. the Thai's on the other hand hook the pump up, pause to light
a cigarette, and then charge it with refrigerant.

But I've never had a Thai serviced system freeze up :-)
--
Cheers,
Bruce

"Bruce" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 20 Dec 2012 09:28:34 -0500, Gogarty
wrote:

In article ,
says...


On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 22:21:44 -0500, Marc Auslander
wrote:

Bruce writes:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 15:41:55 -0500, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·"
åke wrote:


...

At any rate, since I crimped the connectors tighter it hasn't missed a
beat.

I am just soooo freaking smart!!! Perhaps this might assist somebody
else
who
has been experiencing the same or similar symptoms.

Loose connections? And you are a genius to have fixed them?

Aren't you the guy who is described as having a few loose screws?

--
Cheers,
Bruce

In the computer and auto electrical repair worlds, I live by the truth
that "it's always the connector!" I see it works on boats as well :-)

Years ago, in the Apple II days, I used to "fix" computers by pulling
the cards out and pressing them back in a couple of times. Sort of
scratched the corrosion off I guess. A really serious defect was
sometimes cured by rubbing a rubber eraser across the contacts.
--
Cheers,
Bruce
Back in the days of my TRS-80 computer, when it started getting flaky, pull
all the cables and wipe the male connectors with a red rubber pencil erases.
Worked great.

As for the fridge, did you evacuate all the cooland and recharge? You could
have water vapor in there.

That was someone else fixing the fridge.

But your question brings up something... The American refrigeration
people I've worked with all insisted on long periods of vacuuming
systems. the Thai's on the other hand hook the pump up, pause to light
a cigarette, and then charge it with refrigerant.

But I've never had a Thai serviced system freeze up :-)


Americans tend to believe the old adage that if a little is
good, a lot is better and too much is just right.

Respecting drawing a vacuum in a refrigeration system,
it can't possibly matter how long the vacuum is in place.
One minute is as good as one hour. In a vacuum one
draws out molecules. As many water molecules will be
drawn out in a vacuum held for one minute as for one hour.

American's also believe in ripping off the customer. If a
service technician can charge you and extra hour labor
while he sits and twiddles his thumbs or smokes cigarettes
he will do so.

--
Sir Gregory

On Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:09:45 -0500, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·"
Ã¥ke wrote:

"Bruce" wrote in message
.. .


But your question brings up something... The American refrigeration
people I've worked with all insisted on long periods of vacuuming
systems. the Thai's on the other hand hook the pump up, pause to light
a cigarette, and then charge it with refrigerant.

But I've never had a Thai serviced system freeze up :-)


Americans tend to believe the old adage that if a little is
good, a lot is better and too much is just right.

Respecting drawing a vacuum in a refrigeration system,
it can't possibly matter how long the vacuum is in place.
One minute is as good as one hour. In a vacuum one
draws out molecules. As many water molecules will be
drawn out in a vacuum held for one minute as for one hour.

American's also believe in ripping off the customer. If a
service technician can charge you and extra hour labor
while he sits and twiddles his thumbs or smokes cigarettes
he will do so.

Here's basically how it works. A "decent" electric vacuum pump is
capable of pulling down to about 200 microns.
The pump comes equipped with the standard vacuum gauge, which in the
U.S. is measuring inches of mercury vacuum. inHG.
Not accurate enough to measure microns. It will be bottomed when
there's still more vacuum to be had.
But a decent micron measuring gauge cost twice as much as the evac
pump. A good HVAC guy buys one.
Typically refrigeration specs call for evac no higher than 500
microns.
Since the evac pump has to work harder and takes longer to draw down
those last microns, let's say from 10000 down to 500, but the inHG
gauge needle has stopped moving, you let the pump run on for a while.
It could take the pump 10 minutes to bottom the inHG gauge, and
another half hour to actually reach 500 microns vacuum, which is what
indicates an acceptable amount of moisture has been boiled off.
Some people - like me - can "guess" by the sound of the pump when it
has stopped pulling vacuum. But without an accurate micron gauge,
it's really just guessing in the end. I usually end up letting the
pump run about 5-10 minutes after both the gauge is bottomed and
there's no tonal sound difference from the pump. But without the
micron gauge, it's voodoo anyway. I don't sweat it.
I've read that pros with micron gauges sometimes have to run the pump
for hours to get down to 500 microns. I can buy that.
In the past I've repaired my R-12 auto A/C's with no evac, and run
them for years after.
I started maintaining family cars with R134 some years ago, and wanted
to treat them better than I did my old cars. So since one of my kids
is a mech and they had an air-operated vacuum pump in his garage, I
had him do evacs at work a couple times. That was a hassle for him
and me because of timing. So I looked into buying a vacuum pump.
First thing I found is air operated vacuum pumps are plain incapable
of achieving 500 micron vacuum. Lucky to even reach 2000 microns.
And that's with a high capacity air compressor running a looong time.
So I bought a mid-level Mastercool electric.
About 120 bucks and about 30 for a couple quarts of oil, which is
important maintenance on a vacuum pump.

Now the other main part is about maintaining vacuum. That doesn't
require running the pump, but does require time. I usually let the
system set for 2-8 hours with the pump off and isolated when I'm done
pulling vacuum and before I charge. Depends on how lucky I feel.
That's to see if the system has a leak.
Again, that's mostly voodoo without a micron gauge hooked up.
The last time I maintained vacuum on the inHG for a couple hours,
after replacing the compressor and dryer, Gauge never moved.
I still lost R134 from a very small condenser leak, and a year later
the car stopped cooling.
Supposedly a micron gauge would have picked up that leak because of
its sensitivity.
But I might be wrong about that, and the condenser wasn't leaking when
I tested leakdown. No way for me to prove the timing of events.
Anyway, having your own electric evac pump and a gauge set is a good
idea for the DIY car or boat guy. Inexpensive enough to pay off the
investment. A micron gauge is kinda stretching it, and I don't plan
on buying one. I don't mind a little voodoo.

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:09:45 -0500, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·"
åke wrote:

"Bruce" wrote in message
. ..


But your question brings up something... The American refrigeration
people I've worked with all insisted on long periods of vacuuming
systems. the Thai's on the other hand hook the pump up, pause to light
a cigarette, and then charge it with refrigerant.

But I've never had a Thai serviced system freeze up :-)


Americans tend to believe the old adage that if a little is
good, a lot is better and too much is just right.

Respecting drawing a vacuum in a refrigeration system,
it can't possibly matter how long the vacuum is in place.
One minute is as good as one hour. In a vacuum one
draws out molecules. As many water molecules will be
drawn out in a vacuum held for one minute as for one hour.

American's also believe in ripping off the customer. If a
service technician can charge you and extra hour labor
while he sits and twiddles his thumbs or smokes cigarettes
he will do so.

Here's basically how it works. A "decent" electric vacuum pump is
capable of pulling down to about 200 microns.
The pump comes equipped with the standard vacuum gauge, which in the
U.S. is measuring inches of mercury vacuum. inHG.
Not accurate enough to measure microns. It will be bottomed when
there's still more vacuum to be had.
But a decent micron measuring gauge cost twice as much as the evac
pump. A good HVAC guy buys one.
Typically refrigeration specs call for evac no higher than 500
microns.
Since the evac pump has to work harder and takes longer to draw down
those last microns, let's say from 10000 down to 500, but the inHG
gauge needle has stopped moving, you let the pump run on for a while.
It could take the pump 10 minutes to bottom the inHG gauge, and
another half hour to actually reach 500 microns vacuum, which is what
indicates an acceptable amount of moisture has been boiled off.
Some people - like me - can "guess" by the sound of the pump when it
has stopped pulling vacuum. But without an accurate micron gauge,
it's really just guessing in the end. I usually end up letting the
pump run about 5-10 minutes after both the gauge is bottomed and
there's no tonal sound difference from the pump. But without the
micron gauge, it's voodoo anyway. I don't sweat it.
I've read that pros with micron gauges sometimes have to run the pump
for hours to get down to 500 microns. I can buy that.
In the past I've repaired my R-12 auto A/C's with no evac, and run
them for years after.
I started maintaining family cars with R134 some years ago, and wanted
to treat them better than I did my old cars. So since one of my kids
is a mech and they had an air-operated vacuum pump in his garage, I
had him do evacs at work a couple times. That was a hassle for him
and me because of timing. So I looked into buying a vacuum pump.
First thing I found is air operated vacuum pumps are plain incapable
of achieving 500 micron vacuum. Lucky to even reach 2000 microns.
And that's with a high capacity air compressor running a looong time.
So I bought a mid-level Mastercool electric.
About 120 bucks and about 30 for a couple quarts of oil, which is
important maintenance on a vacuum pump.

Now the other main part is about maintaining vacuum. That doesn't
require running the pump, but does require time. I usually let the
system set for 2-8 hours with the pump off and isolated when I'm done
pulling vacuum and before I charge. Depends on how lucky I feel.
That's to see if the system has a leak.
Again, that's mostly voodoo without a micron gauge hooked up.
The last time I maintained vacuum on the inHG for a couple hours,
after replacing the compressor and dryer, Gauge never moved.
I still lost R134 from a very small condenser leak, and a year later
the car stopped cooling.
Supposedly a micron gauge would have picked up that leak because of
its sensitivity.
But I might be wrong about that, and the condenser wasn't leaking when
I tested leakdown. No way for me to prove the timing of events.
Anyway, having your own electric evac pump and a gauge set is a good
idea for the DIY car or boat guy. Inexpensive enough to pay off the
investment. A micron gauge is kinda stretching it, and I don't plan
on buying one. I don't mind a little voodoo.




Thanks for the comprehensive explanation. It makes sense. So, bottom line,
the real reason to pull a vacuum for so long is:

1) subpar equipment that takes forever to get to specs

2) to check for leaks

So, it follows, then, if one knows there are no leaks and one has a decent
pump that can quickly pull the correct vacuum then one minute is as good
as one hour.

--
Sir Gregory

On Fri, 21 Dec 2012 17:40:11 -0500, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·"
Ã¥ke wrote:



Thanks for the comprehensive explanation. It makes sense. So, bottom line,
the real reason to pull a vacuum for so long is:

1) subpar equipment that takes forever to get to specs


Vacuum pumps are usually portable, meaning small, so they can't pull
down instantly. They don't take forever. Mine takes about 5-10
minutes max to bottom the gauge on a typical car. Then I run it
another 5-10 minutes to boil off more moisture and get a lower micron
count.
But it's just guessing without the micron gauge.


2) to check for leaks

So, it follows, then, if one knows there are no leaks and one has a decent
pump that can quickly pull the correct vacuum then one minute is as good
as one hour.

If you don't have a micron gauge, you don't know if you've reached the
"correct" vacuum. I'd guess you'll get better results lowering
microns by running the pump a while after the typical inHG gauge
bottoms out. No idea about long term impact, but specs typically want
it down to 500 microns. I've also read that going below 200 microns
will start boiling off the compressor oil.
Bottom line is without a micron gauge, it's voodoo.
Bottoming the inHG gauge, then running 5-10 minutes more is just how I
arrange the chicken bones. Seems to work.

On Fri, 21 Dec 2012 16:29:16 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:09:45 -0500, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·"
åke wrote:

"Bruce" wrote in message
. ..


But your question brings up something... The American refrigeration
people I've worked with all insisted on long periods of vacuuming
systems. the Thai's on the other hand hook the pump up, pause to light
a cigarette, and then charge it with refrigerant.

But I've never had a Thai serviced system freeze up :-)


Americans tend to believe the old adage that if a little is
good, a lot is better and too much is just right.

Respecting drawing a vacuum in a refrigeration system,
it can't possibly matter how long the vacuum is in place.
One minute is as good as one hour. In a vacuum one
draws out molecules. As many water molecules will be
drawn out in a vacuum held for one minute as for one hour.

American's also believe in ripping off the customer. If a
service technician can charge you and extra hour labor
while he sits and twiddles his thumbs or smokes cigarettes
he will do so.

Here's basically how it works. A "decent" electric vacuum pump is
capable of pulling down to about 200 microns.
The pump comes equipped with the standard vacuum gauge, which in the
U.S. is measuring inches of mercury vacuum. inHG.
Not accurate enough to measure microns. It will be bottomed when
there's still more vacuum to be had.
But a decent micron measuring gauge cost twice as much as the evac
pump. A good HVAC guy buys one.
Typically refrigeration specs call for evac no higher than 500
microns.
Since the evac pump has to work harder and takes longer to draw down
those last microns, let's say from 10000 down to 500, but the inHG
gauge needle has stopped moving, you let the pump run on for a while.
It could take the pump 10 minutes to bottom the inHG gauge, and
another half hour to actually reach 500 microns vacuum, which is what
indicates an acceptable amount of moisture has been boiled off.
Some people - like me - can "guess" by the sound of the pump when it
has stopped pulling vacuum. But without an accurate micron gauge,
it's really just guessing in the end. I usually end up letting the
pump run about 5-10 minutes after both the gauge is bottomed and
there's no tonal sound difference from the pump. But without the
micron gauge, it's voodoo anyway. I don't sweat it.
I've read that pros with micron gauges sometimes have to run the pump
for hours to get down to 500 microns. I can buy that.
In the past I've repaired my R-12 auto A/C's with no evac, and run
them for years after.
I started maintaining family cars with R134 some years ago, and wanted
to treat them better than I did my old cars. So since one of my kids
is a mech and they had an air-operated vacuum pump in his garage, I
had him do evacs at work a couple times. That was a hassle for him
and me because of timing. So I looked into buying a vacuum pump.
First thing I found is air operated vacuum pumps are plain incapable
of achieving 500 micron vacuum. Lucky to even reach 2000 microns.
And that's with a high capacity air compressor running a looong time.
So I bought a mid-level Mastercool electric.
About 120 bucks and about 30 for a couple quarts of oil, which is
important maintenance on a vacuum pump.

Now the other main part is about maintaining vacuum. That doesn't
require running the pump, but does require time. I usually let the
system set for 2-8 hours with the pump off and isolated when I'm done
pulling vacuum and before I charge. Depends on how lucky I feel.
That's to see if the system has a leak.
Again, that's mostly voodoo without a micron gauge hooked up.
The last time I maintained vacuum on the inHG for a couple hours,
after replacing the compressor and dryer, Gauge never moved.
I still lost R134 from a very small condenser leak, and a year later
the car stopped cooling.
Supposedly a micron gauge would have picked up that leak because of
its sensitivity.
But I might be wrong about that, and the condenser wasn't leaking when
I tested leakdown. No way for me to prove the timing of events.
Anyway, having your own electric evac pump and a gauge set is a good
idea for the DIY car or boat guy. Inexpensive enough to pay off the
investment. A micron gauge is kinda stretching it, and I don't plan
on buying one. I don't mind a little voodoo.

Actually it doesn't work that way here. Firstly, one buys the
absolutely cheapest vacuum pump that one can find. One has never hear
of a "micron gauge" so one uses the standard two gauge set. Time is
money and there is another customer waiting so vacuuming (which
produces no visible results) is done as quickly as possible - usually
until the gauge stabilizes and then load the refrigerant, and then
demonstrate the air from the evaporator is cold, shut down and get the
money. NEXT! :-)

(and damn! it seems to work :-)
--
Cheers,
Bruce

On Sat, 22 Dec 2012 08:38:31 +0700, Bruce
wrote:



Actually it doesn't work that way here. Firstly, one buys the
absolutely cheapest vacuum pump that one can find. One has never hear
of a "micron gauge" so one uses the standard two gauge set. Time is
money and there is another customer waiting so vacuuming (which
produces no visible results) is done as quickly as possible - usually
until the gauge stabilizes and then load the refrigerant, and then
demonstrate the air from the evaporator is cold, shut down and get the
money. NEXT! :-)

(and damn! it seems to work :-)

And that's why they say "Whatever works." (-:

On Fri, 21 Dec 2012 19:59:29 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sat, 22 Dec 2012 08:38:31 +0700, Bruce
wrote:



Actually it doesn't work that way here. Firstly, one buys the
absolutely cheapest vacuum pump that one can find. One has never hear
of a "micron gauge" so one uses the standard two gauge set. Time is
money and there is another customer waiting so vacuuming (which
produces no visible results) is done as quickly as possible - usually
until the gauge stabilizes and then load the refrigerant, and then
demonstrate the air from the evaporator is cold, shut down and get the
money. NEXT! :-)

(and damn! it seems to work :-)

And that's why they say "Whatever works." (-:


Years ago, in North Thailand, I used to walk past a little welding
shop where the guy did most of the work out on the sidewalk. Anyway,
one day I came walking by and the guy's got this great big single
cylinder diesel engine out on the sidewalk and one of the mounting
feet is broken off - big chunk of cast iron with the mounting bolt
hole in it. The guy's got it all "vee ed out" and propped up right
where it broke off. and he's welding it back on using regular old,
6011, mild steel welding rod.

Now, you can ask any welder and he'll tell you that you, "can't weld
cast iron with regular steel rods", but this guy is doing it :-) A few
days go buy and every day I can see he has welded a little more and
finally one day I go by and there is no big engine on the sidewalk. So
I ask the guy how it went and he, vary nonchalantly tells me he got it
finished and they took it back to the rice mill to install it. I asked
him whether he though it would hold and he told me that "none of the
other ones I've done have broken".

Now just like not vacuuming down an AC for a long time you can't weld
cast iron with mild steel rods...... but they do :-)
--
Cheers,
Bruce

On Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:09:45 -0500, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·"
åke wrote:

"Bruce" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 20 Dec 2012 09:28:34 -0500, Gogarty
wrote:

In article ,
says...


On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 22:21:44 -0500, Marc Auslander
wrote:

Bruce writes:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 15:41:55 -0500, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·"
åke wrote:


...

At any rate, since I crimped the connectors tighter it hasn't missed a
beat.

I am just soooo freaking smart!!! Perhaps this might assist somebody
else
who
has been experiencing the same or similar symptoms.

Loose connections? And you are a genius to have fixed them?

Aren't you the guy who is described as having a few loose screws?

--
Cheers,
Bruce

In the computer and auto electrical repair worlds, I live by the truth
that "it's always the connector!" I see it works on boats as well :-)

Years ago, in the Apple II days, I used to "fix" computers by pulling
the cards out and pressing them back in a couple of times. Sort of
scratched the corrosion off I guess. A really serious defect was
sometimes cured by rubbing a rubber eraser across the contacts.
--
Cheers,
Bruce
Back in the days of my TRS-80 computer, when it started getting flaky, pull
all the cables and wipe the male connectors with a red rubber pencil erases.
Worked great.

As for the fridge, did you evacuate all the cooland and recharge? You could
have water vapor in there.

That was someone else fixing the fridge.

But your question brings up something... The American refrigeration
people I've worked with all insisted on long periods of vacuuming
systems. the Thai's on the other hand hook the pump up, pause to light
a cigarette, and then charge it with refrigerant.

But I've never had a Thai serviced system freeze up :-)


Americans tend to believe the old adage that if a little is
good, a lot is better and too much is just right.

Respecting drawing a vacuum in a refrigeration system,
it can't possibly matter how long the vacuum is in place.
One minute is as good as one hour. In a vacuum one
draws out molecules. As many water molecules will be
drawn out in a vacuum held for one minute as for one hour.

American's also believe in ripping off the customer. If a
service technician can charge you and extra hour labor
while he sits and twiddles his thumbs or smokes cigarettes
he will do so.


Your concept of physics is seriously flawed. Firstly, your term vacuum
is not a very scientific one as there is essentially no such thing -
it is rather a lower then atmospheric pressure and it doesn't "draw
out molecules", rather as pressure is reduced water boils (is
vaporized) at a lower temperature which allows any water to
"evaporate" and can easily be removed from the system by flowing
toward the low pressure source.

Now; all vacuum pumps vary in efficiency and none of them is capable
of "pulling a complete vacuum" and as it takes time to completely
vaporize any water in the system, theoretically the longer one keeps
the vacuum pump running the more likely one is to evaporate all the
water in the system and remove it.

Next flaw in your argument: "American's also believe in ripping off
the customer".

While I can't argue with your supposition I can say that you have
never been ripped off compared to what will happen to you when you
arrive in one of these 3rd world, developing countries.

As soon as they see you they will identify you as a foreigner and
everyone knows that all foreigners are rich, so prices go up. I've
seen tourists, at Patong Bay on Phuket Island, paying double the price
for a colorful tee shirt that the identical tee shirt sells for in
Phuket Town, some 15 Km away. And a bus ride from Patong to Phuket
town costs less then a dollar).
--
Cheers,
Bruce