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Sail Trim
I have a brand new suit of sails.
I'm trying to learn how they are going to trim - and/or if I need to have any changes made. Yesterday, winds 23 to 15, under mainsail only... I could get all three tell tails on the leach to stream only as the luff started to shiver (sometimes fairly deep). The sailmakers said that they had added some shape. I'm wondering if this may mean too much belly in this sail. -- Richard Lamb http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sv_temptress |
Sail Trim
CaveLamb wrote:
I have a brand new suit of sails. I'm trying to learn how they are going to trim - and/or if I need to have any changes made. Yesterday, winds 23 to 15, under mainsail only... I could get all three tell tails on the leach to stream only as the luff started to shiver (sometimes fairly deep). The sailmakers said that they had added some shape. I'm wondering if this may mean too much belly in this sail. Make that 13 to 15? -- Richard Lamb http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sv_temptress |
Sail Trim
"CaveLamb" wrote in message
m... CaveLamb wrote: I have a brand new suit of sails. I'm trying to learn how they are going to trim - and/or if I need to have any changes made. Yesterday, winds 23 to 15, under mainsail only... I could get all three tell tails on the leach to stream only as the luff started to shiver (sometimes fairly deep). The sailmakers said that they had added some shape. I'm wondering if this may mean too much belly in this sail. Make that 13 to 15? Next time don't do mainsail only. Use a headsail, too. 13 to 15 you should be able to hank on a 120 or 130% genny. 100% without a doubt! As you know, the two sails on a sloop work as a team. The slot effect comes into play and this will allow the mainsail telltales to stream backwards, even the lowest one, because of the increased velocity across the windward side of the mainsail. Does the mainsail have a Cunningham cringle? If so you can flatten it some with a downhaul on the Cunningham. That lower telltale on the mainsail can be a touch nut to stream back. You just might find the optimal is the upper telltales streaming back and the lower one fluttering or going around forward into the low pressure area on the leeward side of the main there the chord is longest and the air tends to stagnate. Wilbur Hubbard |
Sail Trim
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
"CaveLamb" wrote in message m... CaveLamb wrote: I have a brand new suit of sails. I'm trying to learn how they are going to trim - and/or if I need to have any changes made. Yesterday, winds 23 to 15, under mainsail only... I could get all three tell tails on the leach to stream only as the luff started to shiver (sometimes fairly deep). The sailmakers said that they had added some shape. I'm wondering if this may mean too much belly in this sail. Make that 13 to 15? Next time don't do mainsail only. Use a headsail, too. 13 to 15 you should be able to hank on a 120 or 130% genny. 100% without a doubt! As you know, the two sails on a sloop work as a team. The slot effect comes into play and this will allow the mainsail telltales to stream backwards, even the lowest one, because of the increased velocity across the windward side of the mainsail. Does the mainsail have a Cunningham cringle? If so you can flatten it some with a downhaul on the Cunningham. That lower telltale on the mainsail can be a touch nut to stream back. You just might find the optimal is the upper telltales streaming back and the lower one fluttering or going around forward into the low pressure area on the leeward side of the main there the chord is longest and the air tends to stagnate. Wilbur Hubbard Good points. I'm studying the main first because of the new shape. It really does have noticeably deeper camber. And yes, absolutely, will look at it with the genny up before deciding anything drastic. The old main didn't do this. I could get all three streaming and not be hanging on the edge of a luff. This boat was designed with a full battened main. Very flat (by comparison) with fine entry and exit slopes... Also a pain in the butt sometimes. The genoa, which I thought was 130% is actually 143%. I'm hoping we will get to that today or tomorrow. Film at eleven? -- Richard Lamb http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sv_temptress |
Sail Trim
"CaveLamb" wrote in message
... Wilbur Hubbard wrote: "CaveLamb" wrote in message m... CaveLamb wrote: I have a brand new suit of sails. I'm trying to learn how they are going to trim - and/or if I need to have any changes made. Yesterday, winds 23 to 15, under mainsail only... I could get all three tell tails on the leach to stream only as the luff started to shiver (sometimes fairly deep). The sailmakers said that they had added some shape. I'm wondering if this may mean too much belly in this sail. Make that 13 to 15? Next time don't do mainsail only. Use a headsail, too. 13 to 15 you should be able to hank on a 120 or 130% genny. 100% without a doubt! As you know, the two sails on a sloop work as a team. The slot effect comes into play and this will allow the mainsail telltales to stream backwards, even the lowest one, because of the increased velocity across the windward side of the mainsail. Does the mainsail have a Cunningham cringle? If so you can flatten it some with a downhaul on the Cunningham. That lower telltale on the mainsail can be a touch nut to stream back. You just might find the optimal is the upper telltales streaming back and the lower one fluttering or going around forward into the low pressure area on the leeward side of the main there the chord is longest and the air tends to stagnate. Wilbur Hubbard Good points. I'm studying the main first because of the new shape. It really does have noticeably deeper camber. And yes, absolutely, will look at it with the genny up before deciding anything drastic. The old main didn't do this. I could get all three streaming and not be hanging on the edge of a luff. This boat was designed with a full battened main. Very flat (by comparison) with fine entry and exit slopes... Also a pain in the butt sometimes. The genoa, which I thought was 130% is actually 143%. I'm hoping we will get to that today or tomorrow. Film at eleven? A full batten mainsail will handle greater wind speeds before you have to reef because it is flatter and it will point a little better for the same reason. You also notice luffing way less because of the battens. A non-full batten will pull better in the lighter winds. A mainsail with a little more belly to it will probably be a little faster in 10-15 mph winds. But there should be a couple of ways to flatten it somewhat as the wind pipes up. Thus the Cunningham plus just pulling it tighter at the three corners. My new mainsail has a little more belly than the original but it does have a Cunningham cringle. Also I had it made a few inches shorter along the foot so I can outhaul it a little more before it fetches up against the outhaul hardware. It is a shelf foot the shelf of which actually closes as the outhaul is pulled tight. Relaxing the outhaul allows more belly back into it along about the lower 1/3 of the sail. Wilbur Hubbard |
Sail Trim
On Sat, 02 Jul 2011 11:02:11 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote: I have a brand new suit of sails. I'm trying to learn how they are going to trim - and/or if I need to have any changes made. Yesterday, winds 23 to 15, under mainsail only... I could get all three tell tails on the leach to stream only as the luff started to shiver (sometimes fairly deep). The sailmakers said that they had added some shape. I'm wondering if this may mean too much belly in this sail. Why did the sailmaker add belly to the sail? Something you said? Cheers, Bruce |
Sail Trim
Bruce wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jul 2011 11:02:11 -0500, CaveLamb wrote: I have a brand new suit of sails. I'm trying to learn how they are going to trim - and/or if I need to have any changes made. Yesterday, winds 13 to 15, under mainsail only... I could get all three tell tails on the leach to stream only as the luff started to shiver (sometimes fairly deep). The sailmakers said that they had added some shape. I'm wondering if this may mean too much belly in this sail. Why did the sailmaker add belly to the sail? Something you said? Cheers, Bruce I think he thought they might be too flat. This is not a common boat. Anyway, things went better today. I had a conflict between the main halyard and topping lift that wasn't letting the main all the way up yesterday. In an effort to get going I didn't notice it. LOTS better today, but the few times I tried to pinch way up all we did was luff. Nice light air drive, though. Dorothy is driving. On instruments! It's 103 today and the sun was fierce. So the shade is up even if it means she can't see up. I think she did really well though, considering. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lBYPMJbul4 I did try to pinch up way high once. But all that happened was a big luff. I can't hold 30 degrees off. Probably not even 35. 40 - maybe... A bit of history on this... This is a replacement main sail by the same loft. It was made to factory specs and didn't fit all that well. A bit short of hoist and long on the foot. (even though I measured the rig for them) So it looked like the red haired step kid in high water pants. In spite of all that, it was the best shaped sail I've ever had! And it could hold together at 30 off. I didn't have the gps tracking that day. (18 knots wind and a lot of meat on the rail!) So I don't know how much leeway she made that close. Probably horrendous... But she WAS still pulling and making 2 knots. A second problem came clearer today. it looks like the shelf is mis-formed a bit. Might that be because the tack is sliding aft a bit? When I pulled it forward it did look better. Last few pics - we do have the spec 2" of mast bend. And the sail does look good at 45 degrees. So how bad can it be??? The clew ring on the jib is bigger. Bigger enough that he shackle would not go on. I made a soft shackle for it yesterday, but she spit it out after a couple of tacks. Today I lengthened the shackle and fed it back on itself. It held even through a bit of flogging when the sheet grabbed. I think it's ok now. Like Wilbur said, the jib tamed the main tells. Just like it was supposed to... -- Richard Lamb http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sv_temptress |
Sail Trim
On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 00:43:46 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote: Bruce wrote: On Sat, 02 Jul 2011 11:02:11 -0500, CaveLamb wrote: I have a brand new suit of sails. I'm trying to learn how they are going to trim - and/or if I need to have any changes made. Yesterday, winds 13 to 15, under mainsail only... I could get all three tell tails on the leach to stream only as the luff started to shiver (sometimes fairly deep). The sailmakers said that they had added some shape. I'm wondering if this may mean too much belly in this sail. Why did the sailmaker add belly to the sail? Something you said? Cheers, Bruce I think he thought they might be too flat. This is not a common boat. Anyway, things went better today. I had a conflict between the main halyard and topping lift that wasn't letting the main all the way up yesterday. In an effort to get going I didn't notice it. LOTS better today, but the few times I tried to pinch way up all we did was luff. Nice light air drive, though. Dorothy is driving. On instruments! It's 103 today and the sun was fierce. So the shade is up even if it means she can't see up. I think she did really well though, considering. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lBYPMJbul4 I did try to pinch up way high once. But all that happened was a big luff. I can't hold 30 degrees off. Probably not even 35. 40 - maybe... A bit of history on this... This is a replacement main sail by the same loft. It was made to factory specs and didn't fit all that well. A bit short of hoist and long on the foot. (even though I measured the rig for them) So it looked like the red haired step kid in high water pants. In spite of all that, it was the best shaped sail I've ever had! And it could hold together at 30 off. I didn't have the gps tracking that day. (18 knots wind and a lot of meat on the rail!) So I don't know how much leeway she made that close. Probably horrendous... But she WAS still pulling and making 2 knots. A second problem came clearer today. it looks like the shelf is mis-formed a bit. Might that be because the tack is sliding aft a bit? When I pulled it forward it did look better. Last few pics - we do have the spec 2" of mast bend. And the sail does look good at 45 degrees. So how bad can it be??? The clew ring on the jib is bigger. Bigger enough that he shackle would not go on. I made a soft shackle for it yesterday, but she spit it out after a couple of tacks. Today I lengthened the shackle and fed it back on itself. It held even through a bit of flogging when the sheet grabbed. I think it's ok now. Like Wilbur said, the jib tamed the main tells. Just like it was supposed to... True the jib effects the main but the main should set properly with no jib up. But I'm a bit confused. Were you getting horizontal wrinkles? In which case it is probably the luff tension; or vertical wrinkles in which case you can try more outhaul or maybe more sheet tension. Clew ring on the jib too big? A cruising sailor attaches the sheets to the clew with knots :-) As for the old sail if it was too long in the foot it is pretty easy to cut and re sew the leech. In fact changing the curve of any of the edges is a pretty painless job. In the movie I can't see any luff telltails but except for the foot looking a bit loose the sail looks good to me. But you said that you had the outhaul slacked off. Is that your wife? And here I thought you told me that you were some kind of old retired guy. By the way, if you want to learn about boating find a copy of "How to build a Tin Canoe", by Robb White, mostly about sailing off the Georgia, N. Florida coast but a really good read. The author is dead now but you can get the flavor of the book by reading articles on his web site http://www.robbwhite.com/ Cheers, Bruce |
http://siteworld.pl/_/o.gif II'm angry, I'll beat!! http://siteworld.pl/_/oo.gif
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Sail Trim
Bruce wrote:
True the jib effects the main but the main should set properly with no jib up. But I'm a bit confused. Were you getting horizontal wrinkles? In which case it is probably the luff tension; or vertical wrinkles in which case you can try more outhaul or maybe more sheet tension. Clew ring on the jib too big? A cruising sailor attaches the sheets to the clew with knots :-) As for the old sail if it was too long in the foot it is pretty easy to cut and re sew the leech. In fact changing the curve of any of the edges is a pretty painless job. In the movie I can't see any luff telltails but except for the foot looking a bit loose the sail looks good to me. But you said that you had the outhaul slacked off. Is that your wife? And here I thought you told me that you were some kind of old retired guy. By the way, if you want to learn about boating find a copy of "How to build a Tin Canoe", by Robb White, mostly about sailing off the Georgia, N. Florida coast but a really good read. The author is dead now but you can get the flavor of the book by reading articles on his web site http://www.robbwhite.com/ Cheers, Bruce Aris (the fellow who owns Mariner Sails) said it was easy to change one side or the other, but not both at the same time. So he just cut a new sail. Thanks, Bruce. We'll keep working at it and get it figured out. That foot looking loose has me puzzled. Because it does. But when I tensioned it it looked worse! We had no tension on outhaul or vang in that run. It looks like the foot of the sail is trying to slide aft a bit. There is no slug at the clew, and the tack fitting doesn't pull it forward in line with the rest of the luff. It's only an inch or so. But it might need to be retained there better. Just add a slug at the bottom? And I'm going to have to come up with a gate setup at the slot where the slugs go into the mast. There is a sail stop there now, but it holds the stack up about 5 inches. I don't know if there are more slugs on this sail or what, but it sure stacks a lot taller when furled! Dorthy smiled and said to tell you that I'm not all THAT old. :) 61 now (She is considerably younger) But I don't recognize the old man in the mirror any more... -- Richard Lamb http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sv_temptress |
Sail Trim
"CaveLamb" wrote in message
m... snipped Bruce's speculation That foot looking loose has me puzzled. Because it does. But when I tensioned it it looked worse! We had no tension on outhaul or vang in that run. It looks like the foot of the sail is trying to slide aft a bit. There is no slug at the clew, and the tack fitting doesn't pull it forward in line with the rest of the luff. It's only an inch or so. But it might need to be retained there better. Just add a slug at the bottom? And I'm going to have to come up with a gate setup at the slot where the slugs go into the mast. There is a sail stop there now, but it holds the stack up about 5 inches. I don't know if there are more slugs on this sail or what, but it sure stacks a lot taller when furled! Don't add a slug at the bottom of the luff unless you know for sure that the tack hook is in line vertically with the mast track slugs. The tack of the mainsail may be placed so it is NOT in a vertical line with the mast slugs. This may be due to the fact that the tack hardware sits a few inches aft on the boom. Mine is built that way so the sail was especially cut and the tack cringle is four inches aft of the vertical line formed by the mast slugs. |o\ | \ | \ | \ | \ | \ \o________o\ But, there SHOULD be a sliding slug at or near the clew. It should slide easily and it should be lubed with silicone spray so it keeps sliding easily. The outhaul should be used to keep it from sliding forward and to flatten the sail as required. The track in the boom also needs to be kept slippery. If you have slugs or even if you have a bolt-rope in lieu of boom slugs. My mainsail has one sliding slug at the clew and a boltrope the from clew to tack. This is a true shelf-foot. When the sail is bellied out all the way the shelf assumes the perfect shape with no wrinkles. When the outhaul is pulled tight the shelf assumes several folds that make it appear to be no shelf at all. All told there is about six inches difference of foot length between flat sail and full sail. Wilbur Hubbard |
Sail Trim
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
news.com... "CaveLamb" wrote in message m... snipped Bruce's speculation That foot looking loose has me puzzled. Because it does. But when I tensioned it it looked worse! We had no tension on outhaul or vang in that run. It looks like the foot of the sail is trying to slide aft a bit. There is no slug at the clew, and the tack fitting doesn't pull it forward in line with the rest of the luff. It's only an inch or so. But it might need to be retained there better. Just add a slug at the bottom? And I'm going to have to come up with a gate setup at the slot where the slugs go into the mast. There is a sail stop there now, but it holds the stack up about 5 inches. I don't know if there are more slugs on this sail or what, but it sure stacks a lot taller when furled! Don't add a slug at the bottom of the luff unless you know for sure that the tack hook is in line vertically with the mast track slugs. The tack of the mainsail may be placed so it is NOT in a vertical line with the mast slugs. This may be due to the fact that the tack hardware sits a few inches aft on the boom. Mine is built that way so the sail was especially cut and the tack cringle is four inches aft of the vertical line formed by the mast slugs. |o\ | \ | \ | \ | \ | \ \o________o\ But, there SHOULD be a sliding slug at or near the clew. It should slide easily and it should be lubed with silicone spray so it keeps sliding easily. The outhaul should be used to keep it from sliding forward and to flatten the sail as required. The track in the boom also needs to be kept slippery. If you have slugs or even if you have a bolt-rope in lieu of boom slugs. My mainsail has one sliding slug at the clew and a boltrope the from clew to tack. This is a true shelf-foot. When the sail is bellied out all the way the shelf assumes the perfect shape with no wrinkles. When the outhaul is pulled tight the shelf assumes several folds that make it appear to be no shelf at all. All told there is about six inches difference of foot length between flat sail and full sail. Oh, one more thing. The bolt rope, if any, on the foot of the mainsail MUST be nylon so it can stretch adequately. Dacron halyard line is not suitable because it doesn't stretch enough. |
Sail Trim
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
news.com... "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message news.com... "CaveLamb" wrote in message m... snipped Bruce's speculation That foot looking loose has me puzzled. Because it does. But when I tensioned it it looked worse! We had no tension on outhaul or vang in that run. It looks like the foot of the sail is trying to slide aft a bit. There is no slug at the clew, and the tack fitting doesn't pull it forward in line with the rest of the luff. It's only an inch or so. But it might need to be retained there better. Just add a slug at the bottom? And I'm going to have to come up with a gate setup at the slot where the slugs go into the mast. There is a sail stop there now, but it holds the stack up about 5 inches. I don't know if there are more slugs on this sail or what, but it sure stacks a lot taller when furled! Don't add a slug at the bottom of the luff unless you know for sure that the tack hook is in line vertically with the mast track slugs. The tack of the mainsail may be placed so it is NOT in a vertical line with the mast slugs. This may be due to the fact that the tack hardware sits a few inches aft on the boom. Mine is built that way so the sail was especially cut and the tack cringle is four inches aft of the vertical line formed by the mast slugs. |o\ | \ | \ | \ | \ | \ \o________o\ But, there SHOULD be a sliding slug at or near the clew. It should slide easily and it should be lubed with silicone spray so it keeps sliding easily. The outhaul should be used to keep it from sliding forward and to flatten the sail as required. The track in the boom also needs to be kept slippery. If you have slugs or even if you have a bolt-rope in lieu of boom slugs. My mainsail has one sliding slug at the clew and a boltrope the from clew to tack. This is a true shelf-foot. When the sail is bellied out all the way the shelf assumes the perfect shape with no wrinkles. When the outhaul is pulled tight the shelf assumes several folds that make it appear to be no shelf at all. All told there is about six inches difference of foot length between flat sail and full sail. Oh, one more thing. The bolt rope, if any, on the foot of the mainsail MUST be nylon so it can stretch adequately. Dacron halyard line is not suitable because it doesn't stretch enough. And another thing yet. Before you put the sail cover on make sure you relax the outhaul all the way so the sail foot doesn't become permanently stretched. |
Sail Trim
"sealpejerne" wrote in message
... [image: http://siteworld.pl/_/o.gif] II'm angry, I'll beat!! [image: http://siteworld.pl/_/oo.gif] That second one looks just like what I do to Bruce in Bangkok. LOL! |
Sail Trim
Copy all that, Wilbur.
I have a boltrope with a slug at each end of the foot. The one I think I may need to add would be at the foot of the luff. (I think you had the picture of it right from what you said) The tack/luff pulls aft below the bottom luff slug, which is a bit over a foot up from the tack corner. The tack fitting is an inverted U thing that pins through the gooseneck laterally. It can swing fore/aft. So any pressure on the sail, or tension on the outhaul, pulls the bottom tack corner of the sail aft of vertical (of the rest of the luff). That seems to be the source of the odd wrinkle at the aft end of the shelf. I tied a line through the tack ring, around the mast, and pulled the foot forward an inch or two. That made the shelf look a lot better. Will take a closer look at it in the next few days and discuss it with the sail loft before messing with it though... -- Richard Lamb http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sv_temptress |
Sail Trim
"CaveLamb" wrote in message
... Copy all that, Wilbur. I have a boltrope with a slug at each end of the foot. The one I think I may need to add would be at the foot of the luff. (I think you had the picture of it right from what you said) The tack/luff pulls aft below the bottom luff slug, which is a bit over a foot up from the tack corner. The tack fitting is an inverted U thing that pins through the gooseneck laterally. It can swing fore/aft. So any pressure on the sail, or tension on the outhaul, pulls the bottom tack corner of the sail aft of vertical (of the rest of the luff). That seems to be the source of the odd wrinkle at the aft end of the shelf. I tied a line through the tack ring, around the mast, and pulled the foot forward an inch or two. That made the shelf look a lot better. Will take a closer look at it in the next few days and discuss it with the sail loft before messing with it though... My boom has a similar arrangement but with one caveat. The inverted-u tack ring on mine can be reversed. Doing so will effectively move the tack cringle fore or aft about half an inch. You might try that little trick. The reason for this arrangement with the tack connection moved somewhat aft on the boom gooseneck was due to the fact that the boom, when end-boom sheeting is employed, can be used as a roller reefing boom with the sail winding up around the boom. But, mine has mid-boom sheeting and a traveler above the companionway that precludes the wind-up function because of the mid-boom sheeting bales on the boom. But, the boom can rotate on the gooseneck and the gooseneck can also slide up and down in the sail track. I have the same situation as you do when lowering the sail. The boom sort of hangs on the lowest sail slug against the slug stop in the top of the gate with the boom about a foot lower pulling on what's left of the sail. So, since my gooseneck slides up and down in the track, I simply use the downhaul line as an uphaul to raise it up to the bottom of the gate. No more stretching of the sail and a more compact sail stack under the sail cover. The best thing about the sliding gooseneck is when hauling up the sail I use no downhaul so I just pull the sail up to the top black line on the mast. The gooseneck slides up to almost the bottom of the gate. Then after making fast the halyard I push down by hand on the boom at the gooseneck until the luff is properly tensioned according to prevailing winds and cleat off the downhaul line to keep it in place.. Simple as pie and no messing with winches to get the luff tight enough. Wilbur Hubbard |
Sail Trim
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
"CaveLamb" wrote in message ... Copy all that, Wilbur. I have a boltrope with a slug at each end of the foot. The one I think I may need to add would be at the foot of the luff. (I think you had the picture of it right from what you said) The tack/luff pulls aft below the bottom luff slug, which is a bit over a foot up from the tack corner. The tack fitting is an inverted U thing that pins through the gooseneck laterally. It can swing fore/aft. So any pressure on the sail, or tension on the outhaul, pulls the bottom tack corner of the sail aft of vertical (of the rest of the luff). That seems to be the source of the odd wrinkle at the aft end of the shelf. I tied a line through the tack ring, around the mast, and pulled the foot forward an inch or two. That made the shelf look a lot better. Will take a closer look at it in the next few days and discuss it with the sail loft before messing with it though... My boom has a similar arrangement but with one caveat. The inverted-u tack ring on mine can be reversed. Doing so will effectively move the tack cringle fore or aft about half an inch. You might try that little trick. The reason for this arrangement with the tack connection moved somewhat aft on the boom gooseneck was due to the fact that the boom, when end-boom sheeting is employed, can be used as a roller reefing boom with the sail winding up around the boom. But, mine has mid-boom sheeting and a traveler above the companionway that precludes the wind-up function because of the mid-boom sheeting bales on the boom. But, the boom can rotate on the gooseneck and the gooseneck can also slide up and down in the sail track. I have the same situation as you do when lowering the sail. The boom sort of hangs on the lowest sail slug against the slug stop in the top of the gate with the boom about a foot lower pulling on what's left of the sail. So, since my gooseneck slides up and down in the track, I simply use the downhaul line as an uphaul to raise it up to the bottom of the gate. No more stretching of the sail and a more compact sail stack under the sail cover. The best thing about the sliding gooseneck is when hauling up the sail I use no downhaul so I just pull the sail up to the top black line on the mast. The gooseneck slides up to almost the bottom of the gate. Then after making fast the halyard I push down by hand on the boom at the gooseneck until the luff is properly tensioned according to prevailing winds and cleat off the downhaul line to keep it in place.. Simple as pie and no messing with winches to get the luff tight enough. Wilbur Hubbard Small world... My Capri 18 had exactly the same system you described, except for the rotating boom. But the gooseneck did ride in the sail slot. I think that's common among trailer sailors so the boom can be easily unshipped when dropping the mast. That downhaul line was so handy. Didn't even need a Cunningham. But on the 26 the boom is fixed and my tack fitting is the same pinned either way. It flops around freely until the sail shows up and holds it in place. I need to make a gate set to close off that slot. -- Richard Lamb http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sv_temptress |
Sail Trim
On Sun, 3 Jul 2011 13:03:25 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message anews.com... "CaveLamb" wrote in message m... snipped Bruce's speculation That foot looking loose has me puzzled. Because it does. But when I tensioned it it looked worse! We had no tension on outhaul or vang in that run. It looks like the foot of the sail is trying to slide aft a bit. There is no slug at the clew, and the tack fitting doesn't pull it forward in line with the rest of the luff. It's only an inch or so. But it might need to be retained there better. Just add a slug at the bottom? And I'm going to have to come up with a gate setup at the slot where the slugs go into the mast. There is a sail stop there now, but it holds the stack up about 5 inches. I don't know if there are more slugs on this sail or what, but it sure stacks a lot taller when furled! Don't add a slug at the bottom of the luff unless you know for sure that the tack hook is in line vertically with the mast track slugs. The tack of the mainsail may be placed so it is NOT in a vertical line with the mast slugs. This may be due to the fact that the tack hardware sits a few inches aft on the boom. Mine is built that way so the sail was especially cut and the tack cringle is four inches aft of the vertical line formed by the mast slugs. |o\ | \ | \ | \ | \ | \ \o________o\ But, there SHOULD be a sliding slug at or near the clew. It should slide easily and it should be lubed with silicone spray so it keeps sliding easily. The outhaul should be used to keep it from sliding forward and to flatten the sail as required. The track in the boom also needs to be kept slippery. If you have slugs or even if you have a bolt-rope in lieu of boom slugs. My mainsail has one sliding slug at the clew and a boltrope the from clew to tack. This is a true shelf-foot. When the sail is bellied out all the way the shelf assumes the perfect shape with no wrinkles. When the outhaul is pulled tight the shelf assumes several folds that make it appear to be no shelf at all. All told there is about six inches difference of foot length between flat sail and full sail. Oh, one more thing. The bolt rope, if any, on the foot of the mainsail MUST be nylon so it can stretch adequately. Dacron halyard line is not suitable because it doesn't stretch enough. Willie, Wrong again. Assuming that the sail is attached to the boom and not loose footed, to properly rope the foot the sail is stretched, often using a tackle, and then the rope is sewn to the foot. The purpose of all this is to reinforce the foot of the sail and to limit the amount that the sail can be stretched by the out haul. As the purpose of the foot rope is to limit the stretch of the foot of the sail, using a nylon rope would defeat the basic reason for the roping as nylon rope has up to 40% stretch and it would be impossible to sew the rope to the sail to do this - it would mean that the foot would be 40% shorter with tension released. Try http://www.schattauersails.com/ultimateoffshore.html and http://www.sailmakerssupply.com/prod_detail_list/26 for additional information. Cheers, Bruce |
Sail Trim
On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 10:57:34 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote: Bruce wrote: True the jib effects the main but the main should set properly with no jib up. But I'm a bit confused. Were you getting horizontal wrinkles? In which case it is probably the luff tension; or vertical wrinkles in which case you can try more outhaul or maybe more sheet tension. Clew ring on the jib too big? A cruising sailor attaches the sheets to the clew with knots :-) As for the old sail if it was too long in the foot it is pretty easy to cut and re sew the leech. In fact changing the curve of any of the edges is a pretty painless job. In the movie I can't see any luff telltails but except for the foot looking a bit loose the sail looks good to me. But you said that you had the outhaul slacked off. Is that your wife? And here I thought you told me that you were some kind of old retired guy. By the way, if you want to learn about boating find a copy of "How to build a Tin Canoe", by Robb White, mostly about sailing off the Georgia, N. Florida coast but a really good read. The author is dead now but you can get the flavor of the book by reading articles on his web site http://www.robbwhite.com/ Cheers, Bruce Aris (the fellow who owns Mariner Sails) said it was easy to change one side or the other, but not both at the same time. So he just cut a new sail. That is true in one sense. As the sail isn't flat measuring the curve of the leech and luff is a bit iffy. Usually you stretch the side you are changing so as to lay as flat as possible and then mark and cut it. So I agree with the sail maker (lucky that :-). I was actually thinking of the sewing rather then the measuring, marking and cutting. Thanks, Bruce. We'll keep working at it and get it figured out. That foot looking loose has me puzzled. Because it does. But when I tensioned it it looked worse! We had no tension on outhaul or vang in that run. It looks like the foot of the sail is trying to slide aft a bit. There is no slug at the clew, and the tack fitting doesn't pull it forward in line with the rest of the luff. It's only an inch or so. But it might need to be retained there better. Just add a slug at the bottom? And I'm going to have to come up with a gate setup at the slot where the slugs go into the mast. There is a sail stop there now, but it holds the stack up about 5 inches. I don't know if there are more slugs on this sail or what, but it sure stacks a lot taller when furled! Dorthy smiled and said to tell you that I'm not all THAT old. :) 61 now (She is considerably younger) But I don't recognize the old man in the mirror any more... Well, she would, wouldn't she :-? Cheers, Bruce |
Sail Trim
On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 14:21:25 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote: Copy all that, Wilbur. I have a boltrope with a slug at each end of the foot. The one I think I may need to add would be at the foot of the luff. (I think you had the picture of it right from what you said) The tack/luff pulls aft below the bottom luff slug, which is a bit over a foot up from the tack corner. The tack fitting is an inverted U thing that pins through the gooseneck laterally. It can swing fore/aft. So any pressure on the sail, or tension on the outhaul, pulls the bottom tack corner of the sail aft of vertical (of the rest of the luff). That seems to be the source of the odd wrinkle at the aft end of the shelf. I tied a line through the tack ring, around the mast, and pulled the foot forward an inch or two. That made the shelf look a lot better. Will take a closer look at it in the next few days and discuss it with the sail loft before messing with it though... The tack fitting is often is built into the boom gooseneck. If you are making a new fitting (I thought I saw you on another group) you might incorporate that. See http://www.sparcraft.fr/fr/produits/...1.jpg?54682,18 for an example. If you reef using only a reefing line on the leech you can incorporate a hook at the gooseneck for the luff reefing cringle. If you are using a loose footed sail (the movie wasn't very clear) I wouldn't use a slug at either end, assuming that the gooseneck fitting holds the tack properly. Unless the sail maker tells you can I wouldn't use a slug on the clew as usually a loose footed sail is designed to be attached only at the tack and the clew. Adding one additional attaching point might concentrate stress where it wasn't intended. Cheers, Bruce |
Sail Trim
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Sail Trim
Bruce wrote:
On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 14:21:25 -0500, CaveLamb wrote: Copy all that, Wilbur. I have a boltrope with a slug at each end of the foot. The one I think I may need to add would be at the foot of the luff. (I think you had the picture of it right from what you said) The tack/luff pulls aft below the bottom luff slug, which is a bit over a foot up from the tack corner. The tack fitting is an inverted U thing that pins through the gooseneck laterally. It can swing fore/aft. So any pressure on the sail, or tension on the outhaul, pulls the bottom tack corner of the sail aft of vertical (of the rest of the luff). That seems to be the source of the odd wrinkle at the aft end of the shelf. I tied a line through the tack ring, around the mast, and pulled the foot forward an inch or two. That made the shelf look a lot better. Will take a closer look at it in the next few days and discuss it with the sail loft before messing with it though... The tack fitting is often is built into the boom gooseneck. If you are making a new fitting (I thought I saw you on another group) you might incorporate that. See http://www.sparcraft.fr/fr/produits/...1.jpg?54682,18 for an example. If you reef using only a reefing line on the leech you can incorporate a hook at the gooseneck for the luff reefing cringle. If you are using a loose footed sail (the movie wasn't very clear) I wouldn't use a slug at either end, assuming that the gooseneck fitting holds the tack properly. Unless the sail maker tells you can I wouldn't use a slug on the clew as usually a loose footed sail is designed to be attached only at the tack and the clew. Adding one additional attaching point might concentrate stress where it wasn't intended. Cheers, Bruce Hi Bruce, No, it's not loose footed. I'm far too hung-up for a loose footed main sail. :0 Yes. I understand what you are saying about an unexpected stress concentration. That's why I'll ask the loft about it before doing anything. My gooseneck is similar to the one you showed, except that the inverted U-ie is a bit further aft on mine... Sorry this pics is more from underneath. But it is in focus! Can you see that extra inch aft? http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/DSCF0080a.JPG By the way, the quote on the replacement fitting was $275. That's actually not bat for what I'd get. But it's a bit over budget at the moment. I patched up the old fitting and pt it back in service. For now... -- Richard Lamb http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sv_temptress |
Sail Trim
"Bruce" wrote in message
... On Sun, 3 Jul 2011 13:03:25 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message tanews.com... "CaveLamb" wrote in message m... snipped Bruce's speculation That foot looking loose has me puzzled. Because it does. But when I tensioned it it looked worse! We had no tension on outhaul or vang in that run. It looks like the foot of the sail is trying to slide aft a bit. There is no slug at the clew, and the tack fitting doesn't pull it forward in line with the rest of the luff. It's only an inch or so. But it might need to be retained there better. Just add a slug at the bottom? And I'm going to have to come up with a gate setup at the slot where the slugs go into the mast. There is a sail stop there now, but it holds the stack up about 5 inches. I don't know if there are more slugs on this sail or what, but it sure stacks a lot taller when furled! Don't add a slug at the bottom of the luff unless you know for sure that the tack hook is in line vertically with the mast track slugs. The tack of the mainsail may be placed so it is NOT in a vertical line with the mast slugs. This may be due to the fact that the tack hardware sits a few inches aft on the boom. Mine is built that way so the sail was especially cut and the tack cringle is four inches aft of the vertical line formed by the mast slugs. |o\ | \ | \ | \ | \ | \ \o________o\ But, there SHOULD be a sliding slug at or near the clew. It should slide easily and it should be lubed with silicone spray so it keeps sliding easily. The outhaul should be used to keep it from sliding forward and to flatten the sail as required. The track in the boom also needs to be kept slippery. If you have slugs or even if you have a bolt-rope in lieu of boom slugs. My mainsail has one sliding slug at the clew and a boltrope the from clew to tack. This is a true shelf-foot. When the sail is bellied out all the way the shelf assumes the perfect shape with no wrinkles. When the outhaul is pulled tight the shelf assumes several folds that make it appear to be no shelf at all. All told there is about six inches difference of foot length between flat sail and full sail. Oh, one more thing. The bolt rope, if any, on the foot of the mainsail MUST be nylon so it can stretch adequately. Dacron halyard line is not suitable because it doesn't stretch enough. Willie, Wrong again. Assuming that the sail is attached to the boom and not loose footed, to properly rope the foot the sail is stretched, often using a tackle, and then the rope is sewn to the foot. The purpose of all this is to reinforce the foot of the sail and to limit the amount that the sail can be stretched by the out haul. As the purpose of the foot rope is to limit the stretch of the foot of the sail, using a nylon rope would defeat the basic reason for the roping as nylon rope has up to 40% stretch and it would be impossible to sew the rope to the sail to do this - it would mean that the foot would be 40% shorter with tension released. Try http://www.schattauersails.com/ultimateoffshore.html and http://www.sailmakerssupply.com/prod_detail_list/26 for additional information. It is becoming more and more plain that you know NOTHING about a shelf-footed mainsail. Like you apparently seem to know nothing about just about all other aspects of sailing. Wilbur Hubbard |
Sail Trim
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
news.com... trim Assuming that the sail is attached to the boom and not loose footed, to properly rope the foot the sail is stretched, often using a tackle, and then the rope is sewn to the foot. Wrong! Have you ever tried 'stretching' Dacron? Just why the hell do you think Dacron is the material of choice for sails (except for spinnakers, etc)? It's precicesly because Dacron stretches very little. For the same reason, they make halyard line from dacron and other materials that barely stretch or don't stretch at all. When the nylon bolt rope is sewn into a shelf-footed main it is not pre-stretched at all. The shelf of a shelf-footed sail is not tensioned at all when the sail is properly sown. IOW, the bolt rope, if any, is relaxed and the Dacron material is actually somewhat puckered fore and aft around the bolt rope when the sail is set with a full belly. When the clew is hauled out the belly in the sail assumes less of a curve as the nylon bolt rope stretches and commences to pull flat the puckers. If it was pre-stretched as you claim then the Dacron would end up tearing when it was strained even more by the outhaul because Dacron doesn't hardly stretch by the very nature of the material. Get a clue and shut your yap when attempting to post about things you have no intimate knowledge about. Wilbur Hubbard The purpose of all this is to reinforce the foot of the sail and to limit the amount that the sail can be stretched by the out haul. As the purpose of the foot rope is to limit the stretch of the foot of the sail, using a nylon rope would defeat the basic reason for the roping as nylon rope has up to 40% stretch and it would be impossible to sew the rope to the sail to do this - it would mean that the foot would be 40% shorter with tension released. Try http://www.schattauersails.com/ultimateoffshore.html and http://www.sailmakerssupply.com/prod_detail_list/26 for additional information. It is becoming more and more plain that you know NOTHING about a shelf-footed mainsail. Like you apparently seem to know nothing about just about all other aspects of sailing. Wilbur Hubbard |
Sail Trim
On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 07:39:01 +0700, Bruce
wrote: As the purpose of the foot rope is to limit the stretch of the foot of the sail, using a nylon rope would defeat the basic reason for the roping as nylon rope has up to 40% stretch and it would be impossible to sew the rope to the sail to do this - it would mean that the foot would be 40% shorter with tension released. Just because it can be stretched to 40% elongation with_ some_ amount of force, doesn't mean that this is magically the real life figure. Been my experience with 15 to 20 foot daysailers that the bolt ropes, for all practical purposes, don't stretch much. Maybe an inch or two. Not six or seven feet. Casady |
Sail Trim
On Mon, 4 Jul 2011 10:48:40 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message anews.com... trim Assuming that the sail is attached to the boom and not loose footed, to properly rope the foot the sail is stretched, often using a tackle, and then the rope is sewn to the foot. Wrong! Have you ever tried 'stretching' Dacron? Just why the hell do you think Dacron is the material of choice for sails (except for spinnakers, etc)? It's precicesly because Dacron stretches very little. For the same reason, they make halyard line from dacron and other materials that barely stretch or don't stretch at all. When the nylon bolt rope is sewn into a shelf-footed main it is not pre-stretched at all. The shelf of a shelf-footed sail is not tensioned at all when the sail is properly sown. IOW, the bolt rope, if any, is relaxed and the Dacron material is actually somewhat puckered fore and aft around the bolt rope when the sail is set with a full belly. When the clew is hauled out the belly in the sail assumes less of a curve as the nylon bolt rope stretches and commences to pull flat the puckers. If it was pre-stretched as you claim then the Dacron would end up tearing when it was strained even more by the outhaul because Dacron doesn't hardly stretch by the very nature of the material. Get a clue and shut your yap when attempting to post about things you have no intimate knowledge about. Wilbur Hubbard You are exactly right. Dacron does not stretch very much. Thus, adding a nylon rope wouldn't accomplish anything which is why roping is done with dacron rope - usually 3 strand stuff. You seem to have some half arsed idea of what roping on a sail does - it limits the stretch of the sail and adds strength. Adding a nylon rope is about as sensible an idea as adding a rubber band would be.. Just as you did with the electrical and refrigeration problem you didn't understand how the systems work but that didn't prevent you from trying to sound like an expert and planting your foot firmly in your mouth; once again. I keep telling you, keeping your mouth shut might make people wonder if you are a fool, but opening it surely convinces them. The purpose of all this is to reinforce the foot of the sail and to limit the amount that the sail can be stretched by the out haul. As the purpose of the foot rope is to limit the stretch of the foot of the sail, using a nylon rope would defeat the basic reason for the roping as nylon rope has up to 40% stretch and it would be impossible to sew the rope to the sail to do this - it would mean that the foot would be 40% shorter with tension released. Try http://www.schattauersails.com/ultimateoffshore.html and http://www.sailmakerssupply.com/prod_detail_list/26 for additional information. It is becoming more and more plain that you know NOTHING about a shelf-footed mainsail. Like you apparently seem to know nothing about just about all other aspects of sailing. Wilbur Hubbard Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
Sail Trim
On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 23:43:13 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote: On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 07:39:01 +0700, Bruce wrote: As the purpose of the foot rope is to limit the stretch of the foot of the sail, using a nylon rope would defeat the basic reason for the roping as nylon rope has up to 40% stretch and it would be impossible to sew the rope to the sail to do this - it would mean that the foot would be 40% shorter with tension released. Just because it can be stretched to 40% elongation with_ some_ amount of force, doesn't mean that this is magically the real life figure. Been my experience with 15 to 20 foot daysailers that the bolt ropes, for all practical purposes, don't stretch much. Maybe an inch or two. Not six or seven feet. Casady Certainly. I was exaggerating in an attempt to make him stop and think. I think I even gave him a reference to a sail makers supplier who sells dacron for sail roping. I could dig out a sail makers manual and give him another reference but I doubt he'd read it. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
Sail Trim
On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 01:31:05 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote: Bruce wrote: On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 14:21:25 -0500, CaveLamb wrote: Copy all that, Wilbur. I have a boltrope with a slug at each end of the foot. The one I think I may need to add would be at the foot of the luff. (I think you had the picture of it right from what you said) The tack/luff pulls aft below the bottom luff slug, which is a bit over a foot up from the tack corner. The tack fitting is an inverted U thing that pins through the gooseneck laterally. It can swing fore/aft. So any pressure on the sail, or tension on the outhaul, pulls the bottom tack corner of the sail aft of vertical (of the rest of the luff). That seems to be the source of the odd wrinkle at the aft end of the shelf. I tied a line through the tack ring, around the mast, and pulled the foot forward an inch or two. That made the shelf look a lot better. Will take a closer look at it in the next few days and discuss it with the sail loft before messing with it though... The tack fitting is often is built into the boom gooseneck. If you are making a new fitting (I thought I saw you on another group) you might incorporate that. See http://www.sparcraft.fr/fr/produits/...1.jpg?54682,18 for an example. If you reef using only a reefing line on the leech you can incorporate a hook at the gooseneck for the luff reefing cringle. If you are using a loose footed sail (the movie wasn't very clear) I wouldn't use a slug at either end, assuming that the gooseneck fitting holds the tack properly. Unless the sail maker tells you can I wouldn't use a slug on the clew as usually a loose footed sail is designed to be attached only at the tack and the clew. Adding one additional attaching point might concentrate stress where it wasn't intended. Cheers, Bruce Hi Bruce, No, it's not loose footed. I'm far too hung-up for a loose footed main sail. :0 Yes. I understand what you are saying about an unexpected stress concentration. That's why I'll ask the loft about it before doing anything. My gooseneck is similar to the one you showed, except that the inverted U-ie is a bit further aft on mine... Sorry this pics is more from underneath. But it is in focus! Can you see that extra inch aft? http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/DSCF0080a.JPG By the way, the quote on the replacement fitting was $275. That's actually not bat for what I'd get. But it's a bit over budget at the moment. I patched up the old fitting and pt it back in service. For now... Yes, the tack hook (whatever) should be closer to the mast, but what in the world is that added link running from the fwd end of the boom to the mast? By the way, if you can weld you can make all the rigging fittings you need. I use a section of large tube and cut a half round section to fit against the mast (maybe beat it with a hammer to make it fit) and cut flat stuff to shape with a 4 inch angle grinder and weld it together with a small stick welder. You can buy welding electrodes in various alloys of stainless and thickness (small diameter = lower amperage and less burn through) and you can passivate them with many acids (I've used a strong tile cleaner) or buy a special "stainless passivating" stuff, or alternately buy a polishing head and some abrasive and polish them. To do the job correctly you should mount them to an aluminum mast using an insulating gasket and an insulating sealant for the bolts. I usually use plastic cut from any sort of flat sided plastic bottle and either sikaflex 291 or 292 or 3M 5200, either of which also makes a good thread lock :-) Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
Sail Trim
On Tue, 05 Jul 2011 18:45:01 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote: On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 23:43:13 -0500, Richard Casady wrote: On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 07:39:01 +0700, Bruce wrote: As the purpose of the foot rope is to limit the stretch of the foot of the sail, using a nylon rope would defeat the basic reason for the roping as nylon rope has up to 40% stretch and it would be impossible to sew the rope to the sail to do this - it would mean that the foot would be 40% shorter with tension released. Just because it can be stretched to 40% elongation with_ some_ amount of force, doesn't mean that this is magically the real life figure. Been my experience with 15 to 20 foot daysailers that the bolt ropes, for all practical purposes, don't stretch much. Maybe an inch or two. Not six or seven feet. Casady Certainly. I was exaggerating in an attempt to make him stop and think. I think I even gave him a reference to a sail makers supplier who sells dacron for sail roping. I could dig out a sail makers manual and give him another reference but I doubt he'd read it. It seems obviious that the rope and should stretch the same amount or the stitches would come under strain and probably break, or tear the cloth. Casady |
Sail Trim
On Tue, 05 Jul 2011 06:56:58 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote: On Tue, 05 Jul 2011 18:45:01 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok wrote: On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 23:43:13 -0500, Richard Casady wrote: On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 07:39:01 +0700, Bruce wrote: As the purpose of the foot rope is to limit the stretch of the foot of the sail, using a nylon rope would defeat the basic reason for the roping as nylon rope has up to 40% stretch and it would be impossible to sew the rope to the sail to do this - it would mean that the foot would be 40% shorter with tension released. Just because it can be stretched to 40% elongation with_ some_ amount of force, doesn't mean that this is magically the real life figure. Been my experience with 15 to 20 foot daysailers that the bolt ropes, for all practical purposes, don't stretch much. Maybe an inch or two. Not six or seven feet. Casady Certainly. I was exaggerating in an attempt to make him stop and think. I think I even gave him a reference to a sail makers supplier who sells dacron for sail roping. I could dig out a sail makers manual and give him another reference but I doubt he'd read it. It seems obviious that the rope and should stretch the same amount or the stitches would come under strain and probably break, or tear the cloth. Casady Usually you set up the sail with a bit of tension on it and then stretch the rope pretty tight and then sew them together. The idea is that when you put tension on the sail it doesn't tear. Most sails laying loose will show quite a bit of wrinkle along the foot as the rope contracts with no tension on it. Actually I'm not so sure that it is needed in this age as roller reefed mains don't have rope and jibs & etc. don't and the jib on my last boat was larger then the main. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
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