On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 12:16:58 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"CaveLamb" wrote in message
om...
Richard Casady wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 08:05:08 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote:

esterday we had a steam cleaner (8GPM @ 3000psi @ 225°F) clean the
bottom of the boat.

Not possible to have steam at those conditions. Steam has to be at
more than 1000 F to reach such pressures. If you pressurize steam to
3000 psi it will condense unless very hot. The liquid in question will
begin flash into steam as it leaves the sprayer tip. It might not be
properly called steam cleaning, but I admit that is a nitpick.

In my experience, steam cleaning uses just steam.

Casady


But wouldn't 700+ degrees have a detrimental effect on fiberglass?


You're darned tootin' it does! Those temperatures will soften it up. It'll
also cause any trapped moisture to boil out causing more holes and tiny
fractures into which sea water may ingress to cause further blisters later
on. This new 'drying out' method advocated by Skippy and a few other fools
in this group is just so destructive. Makes me wonder why ANYONE, even
morons, are stupid enough to believe it.

Wilbur Hubbard


Ah, willie-buffoon is back. And when did you turn into an expert? Is
this like your expertise in electrical theory, or refrigeration? Or is
this just something you read in a book and didn't understand? Or
perhaps a lesson on how to obtain batteries by fraudulent means?

By the way willie. for years you raved about ****ting in a bucket and
now you slipped up and bragged about your electric toilet.

The problem in being a liar is that you need a very good memory and as
the years go by the memory is the first thing to go. You can probably
look forward to your declining years being fraught with new
discoveries of your lies.

Cheers,

Bruce

"Bruce" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 12:16:58 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"CaveLamb" wrote in message
news:8YOdnRXE0KH5_WDQnZ2dnUVZ_sqdnZ2d@earthlink. com...
Richard Casady wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 08:05:08 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote:

esterday we had a steam cleaner (8GPM @ 3000psi @ 225°F) clean the
bottom of the boat.

Not possible to have steam at those conditions. Steam has to be at
more than 1000 F to reach such pressures. If you pressurize steam to
3000 psi it will condense unless very hot. The liquid in question will
begin flash into steam as it leaves the sprayer tip. It might not be
properly called steam cleaning, but I admit that is a nitpick.

In my experience, steam cleaning uses just steam.

Casady


But wouldn't 700+ degrees have a detrimental effect on fiberglass?


You're darned tootin' it does! Those temperatures will soften it up. It'll
also cause any trapped moisture to boil out causing more holes and tiny
fractures into which sea water may ingress to cause further blisters later
on. This new 'drying out' method advocated by Skippy and a few other fools
in this group is just so destructive. Makes me wonder why ANYONE, even
morons, are stupid enough to believe it.

Wilbur Hubbard


Ah, willie-buffoon is back. And when did you turn into an expert? Is
this like your expertise in electrical theory, or refrigeration? Or is
this just something you read in a book and didn't understand? Or
perhaps a lesson on how to obtain batteries by fraudulent means?

By the way willie. for years you raved about ****ting in a bucket and
now you slipped up and bragged about your electric toilet.

Heh. I wouldn't have characterized it in that fashion (your closing para),
but the same thought occurred to me :{))

L8R

Skip, back to more fiberglassing on our bone-dry (not the first WSM weep
following the PW) hull

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

Hi, all,

Concatenating replies with snippets from each...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wilbur Hubbard"

I knew I could count on you :{))

That we've removed any reasonable level of available WSMs from the hull,
following up with not only epoxy fairing but a very thick barrier coat,
we feel, should put this blister issue to rest. Even if it doesn't,
we're not going there again in our lifetime :{))


Which lifetime will, unfortunately, be necessarily abbreviated, until an
unless you decide to spend at least half the time you spend on
maintenance, learning how to sail. :-)

Actually, as you've never been aboard during our 40K or so of water miles,
you don't know how much time we spend learning to sail. That said...


What's it been now? Six months on the hard? LOL! All that time wasted on
a

Actually, we came ashore in Mid March (see the Ragged Island - Ft. Pierce
Passage report). We left for 8 days for a wedding a couple of weeks later,
and went on to grandparenting stuff (easy to do when you live ashore, not so
much when your only home is your boat, and it's in international waters most
of the time) for 5 weeks recently, arriving a week ago back in the yard.

So, you do the math - we've been working on the boat for about 8 weeks.

How long have YOU been ashore since the last time you took a 500 or more
mile sail? (That's assuming you've ever done, and doesn't count going out
for a weekend to start the ground clock over again...)

When the boat's finished, and we've done the few in-the-water chores needed,
we'll not come out again for a few years, that time for some lovely
additions to our green abilities as well as upgrades in the same step.
Likely Cartagena, at least at this conjecture.

dilapidated POS. Sad! You and Lydia could have gotten jobs and used the
money earned to buy a decent, sail away condition yacht - not some
maintenance intensive, soon-to-blister-again Morgan which is about as
low-end a boat there is.

LOL! We actually HAD jobs (well, me, not so much, but I put a lot more into
the retirement kitty than she did). It's why we LEFT - who want's an F'ing
JOB???

Onward...

From: "Richard Casady"


On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 08:05:08 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote:

esterday we had a steam cleaner (8GPM @ 3000psi @ 225°F) clean the bottom
of the boat.

Not possible to have steam at those conditions. Steam has to be at

Fair enough. However, flooding the boat under a lot of pressure with 225*
water is pretty good against 90* water :{))

more than 1000 F to reach such pressures. If you pressurize steam to
3000 psi it will condense unless very hot. The liquid in question will
begin flash into steam as it leaves the sprayer tip. It might not be

It did, indeed - and, a lot of it, at 8GPM...

properly called steam cleaning, but I admit that is a nitpick.

:{)) Nitpicking is allowed

More

----- Original Message -----
From: "CaveLamb"

But wouldn't 700+ degrees have a detrimental effect on fiberglass?

Yah, it sure would. Epoxy melts at 350...

So, anyway, fiberglassing the divots is proceeding apace. 3 days later, not
the first hint of any further WSMs on the hull, and the hull looks and feels
drier than ever before.

Indications are that's not merely suggestive, as we borrowed the yard's
meter, which we'd earlier used as we went around and marked various points'
readings. Today, they're all down, and the worst of them reads about what
the ones which were below the alarm threshold did (vs well up on the scale,
with some pegged, on the worst), and those marginal previous meter reading
points barely move the meter.

Though Wilbur, in his infinite and all-knowing wisdom, is probably right,
that this won't work, it fools the meter that other folks will use as an
indicator as to whether this is a good hull when the sad day arrives that we
have to sell her, and that's good enough for me and Lydia :{))

Meanwhile, much fairing after all the patching is finished will remain, but
all is proceeding well.

Finally, as Wilbur's called himself out, as one who used to bemuse at Cap't
Neal's contributions to this august (wait - it's not even July!) body so
very long ago, I say, "Wilbur, how about just coming along as CN? It took
several years and many heated protestations to the contrary (including "he's
my roommate") for you to own up to Gregory Hall - why not go whole hog (said
as one who lives on a boat with such a name knowing that it would be a good
thing)?" Despite your megalomania and pedantry, you (in that character,
anyway, apparently verified via the name on the proudly displayed USCG
certificate) had many valuable school sessions as well as contributions in
those past times.

L8R

Skip, still in the yard, with a REMOTE possibility of the boat on the ground
for 6 months, but I surely doubt it...

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

"Flying Pig" wrote in message
...
"Bruce" wrote in message

snippage

By the way willie. for years you raved about ****ting in a bucket and
now you slipped up and bragged about your electric toilet.

Heh. I wouldn't have characterized it in that fashion (your closing para),
but the same thought occurred to me :{))


FYI, the head is mandated by law due to the LOA of my fine yacht and
enclosed living spaces. The law says my yacht must have an installed head.
It follows that it must have an approved MSD device connected to it such as
a holding tank and or other type such as a Type I MSD like the ElectraSan.

My fine yacht meets or exceeds all legal requirement.

That being said, there IS NO LAW that mandates the legally required systems
be used. If I want to go for a swim and take a dump there ain't a thing in
the world the authorities can do about it as it isn't against the law to do
so. The old cedar bucket is against the law in a no discharge zone so it
would not be wise of me to admit to using it unless well offshore.

Get a clue, both of you.

Wilbur Hubbard

On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:23:18 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Flying Pig" wrote in message
...
"Bruce" wrote in message

snippage

By the way willie. for years you raved about ****ting in a bucket and
now you slipped up and bragged about your electric toilet.

Heh. I wouldn't have characterized it in that fashion (your closing para),
but the same thought occurred to me :{))


FYI, the head is mandated by law due to the LOA of my fine yacht and
enclosed living spaces. The law says my yacht must have an installed head.
It follows that it must have an approved MSD device connected to it such as
a holding tank and or other type such as a Type I MSD like the ElectraSan.

My fine yacht meets or exceeds all legal requirement.

That being said, there IS NO LAW that mandates the legally required systems
be used. If I want to go for a swim and take a dump there ain't a thing in
the world the authorities can do about it as it isn't against the law to do
so. The old cedar bucket is against the law in a no discharge zone so it
would not be wise of me to admit to using it unless well offshore.

Get a clue, both of you.

Wilbur Hubbard

By gosh, them Florida lawyer chaps don't miss a lick do they. A tiny
little boat like your's needs something better then a bucket?

They don't understand that a cedar bucket with a seat is a proper
pooper scooper?

Next thing is a federal funded program to install diapers on whales.
(If the Japs don't get them first)

Cheers,

Bruce

in another way...

Today we were talking with Charley, a guy who'd shown up at the side of our
boat a few days ago, looking for fiberglass work, having had 37 years of
experience in boat layup and repair. As Lydia was off the boat at the time
he knocked on the hull, I deferred speaking with him at length until she got
back.

Fast forward, as he's now working on a large boat which had been very poorly
sanded by the yard, leaving lots of divots at the same time as taking off an
inordinate amount of fiberglass.

A friend in the yard who I'd met on the internet during the very early
stages of our boat searching, predating seeing any boats at all, yet, comes
over yesterday asking if I'd met Charley, saying that he was WAY
overqualified to be in this yard, and, better yet, was putting on the same
fairing compound as we were going to be using.

Off we go to see what's up, and get an idea of how this stuff works. This
morning, we chat him up and ask him to come over and look at our boat, sort
of to look over our shoulder. I noticed that our guy who has been helping
us was at the boat, and preparing for work.

While we're showing Charley, the one who's applying AdTech, the epoxy
fairing compound we'll use, to the other boat, what we'll be doing to our
boat in the course of the repairs, our helper walks (well, sort of
half-runs) by and says, "Do you want me to leave now?"

WTF??? I say, "Of course not - what do you mean?" No comment, but instead
he hustles to the bow where he always puts his tool bin, hoists it and
nearly runs back to the car where his wife is still sitting, as she usually
does when she drops him off. Another quick trip to fetch his lunch and
drinks cooler, announcing loudly that he's leaving.

Protestations to the contrary from the three of us under the boat while this
is giong on have no effect, and he's gone.

A short while later, while I'm off doing something else related to our
goings-on, he shows up again, to fetch something he's forgotten, and blows
up at Lydia, who's cutting fiberglass patches in prep for our work today -
an activity he had been participating in each morning - when she,
short-fused as she is, yells at him for leaving that way.

"You owe me for two days' work (we paid him in full on Monday for all the
work he'd done to that date, and all the materials he'd bought), so I'm
keeping the grinder/buffer and the (10 bottles of $15) wax!"

He went on to say, "Good Luck! Cuz you're sure as Hell going to need it!"
as he stomped off. WTF???

Phone calls to his home, his and his wife's cells go unanswered. So far, 10
hours later, there's been no response to the email I sent to his wife (who
was as baffled by his behavior as we, according to Lydia, who was talking to
her during all that going on).

So, as he seems to have unceremoniously resigned, we seem likely to take
advantage of Charley, who came back later today for further consultation as
to what we should be doing before he arrived in full gear.

From watching him on the other boat, while he's more expensive than our
prior helper, he's also VERY much more qualified to do what he does, not to
mention a great deal faster, and may well end up costing less - never mind
the boo-boos we won't have to address :{))

For the morbidly curious, I append the letter I sent to his wife's email
addess after all this was under way...

L8R

Skip


--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain


Hi, Lidia,

As John's currently avoiding us, please pass this on to him:

Hi, John,

I don't know what happened today, but there are some things we should talk
about - without shouting, of course, something I do better than Lydia

First order of business is that Lydia tells me you've left the job,
permanently. I'm disappointed in you that it happened the way it did, as it
wasn't professional. The reason you were working with us in the first place
is that we thought you were a professional, and, in so many ways, you've
demonstrated that you ARE a professional.

However, your leaving today wasn't professional. A professional, if there
were issues which needed examining, would have brought them to our
attention. Your initial grab-your-stuff-and-stomp-off departure was what
made Lydia angry. Me, I just scratched my head, wondering what that was all
about I'm sorry that Lydia's anger came out when you returned to get
something you'd left the first time. I'm sure that didn't help. However...

If there were issues which needed discussion, we should have had that
discussion. If the end of that discussion wasn't satisfactory to you, you
could have said, simply, "I can't do this any more." A professional
resignation or quitting or whatever other label the end of our business
relationship might have would have had us settle accounts and go our
separate ways.

I would point out that appropriating tools and materials of ours, simply
because the last time your wages were paid up was two days ago is not only
inappropriate, it's theft. NOT PROFESSIONAL AT ALL...

Meanwhile, I believe you've jumped to some inappropriate conclusions.

When you walked up on our conversation with Charley, we were talking about
what WE - that's you, me and Lydia - were doing about our job. Not someone
else - US. With all due respect to your admittedly extensive experience,
Charley has had a similar level of experience but specifically on the type
of boat we are working with.

Two heads are better than one - and, as I surely don't know everything, I
look for informed opinions everywhere I can. That's what I was doing.
Getting confirmation that our course of action was appropriate from someone
who has been doing this SPECIFIC type of work all his working life. For what
it's worth, I've been doing that outside this yard as well. I have an
extensive network of cruising friends - people who have faced the same sort
of issues as we are - that I know from the internet. Would you stomp off
the job because I'd been speaking with one of them to gain some of their
hard-earned experience?

Secondly, I'm sure you've noticed that this is a very big job. More hands -
experienced hands - make it go a great deal faster, let alone that it makes
lighter work. Having another experienced hand aboard doesn't diminish your
skills.

So, as you've said to me so countless many times under the boat in
determining how to handle a given situation, "It's up to you. You do what
you want." If you want to have seen the last of us, then I expect our
supplies which we bought for your work - wax, polishing cloths,
sander/buffer and my vapors mask - to be returned to us, immediately.

We, in turn, will pay you for the work you've done, and, if in the last
check Lydia wrote to you, supplies you've bought were not included, we'll of
course pay you for that.

On the other hand, the reason you've been here all this time is that we
value your skills. If you can live with the fact that there may be others
involved in our project as it comes to completion, I believe you could
continue to be an asset here.

"You decide. It's up to you." - John Thomas, countless times, to Skip
Gundlach. Now it's your turn to decide...

Skip and Lydia

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

On Wed, 22 Jun 2011 20:40:06 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote:

in another way...

Today we were talking with Charley, a guy who'd shown up at the side of our
boat a few days ago, looking for fiberglass work, having had 37 years of
experience in boat layup and repair. As Lydia was off the boat at the time
he knocked on the hull, I deferred speaking with him at length until she got
back.

Fast forward, as he's now working on a large boat which had been very poorly
sanded by the yard, leaving lots of divots at the same time as taking off an
inordinate amount of fiberglass.

A friend in the yard who I'd met on the internet during the very early
stages of our boat searching, predating seeing any boats at all, yet, comes
over yesterday asking if I'd met Charley, saying that he was WAY
overqualified to be in this yard, and, better yet, was putting on the same
fairing compound as we were going to be using.

Off we go to see what's up, and get an idea of how this stuff works. This
morning, we chat him up and ask him to come over and look at our boat, sort
of to look over our shoulder. I noticed that our guy who has been helping
us was at the boat, and preparing for work.

While we're showing Charley, the one who's applying AdTech, the epoxy
fairing compound we'll use, to the other boat, what we'll be doing to our
boat in the course of the repairs, our helper walks (well, sort of
half-runs) by and says, "Do you want me to leave now?"

WTF??? I say, "Of course not - what do you mean?" No comment, but instead
he hustles to the bow where he always puts his tool bin, hoists it and
nearly runs back to the car where his wife is still sitting, as she usually
does when she drops him off. Another quick trip to fetch his lunch and
drinks cooler, announcing loudly that he's leaving.

Protestations to the contrary from the three of us under the boat while this
is giong on have no effect, and he's gone.

A short while later, while I'm off doing something else related to our
goings-on, he shows up again, to fetch something he's forgotten, and blows
up at Lydia, who's cutting fiberglass patches in prep for our work today -
an activity he had been participating in each morning - when she,
short-fused as she is, yells at him for leaving that way.

"You owe me for two days' work (we paid him in full on Monday for all the
work he'd done to that date, and all the materials he'd bought), so I'm
keeping the grinder/buffer and the (10 bottles of $15) wax!"

He went on to say, "Good Luck! Cuz you're sure as Hell going to need it!"
as he stomped off. WTF???

Phone calls to his home, his and his wife's cells go unanswered. So far, 10
hours later, there's been no response to the email I sent to his wife (who
was as baffled by his behavior as we, according to Lydia, who was talking to
her during all that going on).

So, as he seems to have unceremoniously resigned, we seem likely to take
advantage of Charley, who came back later today for further consultation as
to what we should be doing before he arrived in full gear.

From watching him on the other boat, while he's more expensive than our
prior helper, he's also VERY much more qualified to do what he does, not to
mention a great deal faster, and may well end up costing less - never mind
the boo-boos we won't have to address :{))

For the morbidly curious, I append the letter I sent to his wife's email
addess after all this was under way...

I hope I am not too far out of line, and I don't want you to see any
hint of condesension in this, but I go on the theory that publishing
an E-mail is a good way to **** someone off and I go out of my way not
to annoy a compleat nut. I am afraid to. Free advice, worth every
penny you paid for it. I realize I wasn't there.

You tale makes me happy with my 22ft aluminum boat. I can live with
the original well weathered 1979 paint. I have three grand in the
boat, including a head gasket, a grand installed. My unimployed son
did the work.

Casady

"Richard Casady" wrote


I hope I am not too far out of line, and I don't want you to see any
hint of condesension in this, but I go on the theory that publishing
an E-mail is a good way to **** someone off and I go out of my way not
to annoy a compleat nut. I am afraid to. Free advice, worth every
penny you paid for it. I realize I wasn't there.

You tale makes me happy with my 22ft aluminum boat. I can live with
the original well weathered 1979 paint. I have three grand in the
boat, including a head gasket, a grand installed. My unimployed son
did the work.

Casady

Hi, Casady,

Point taken, and no worries about being out of line - but it appeared here,
only, and John doesn't read this group (nor much of anything on the
internet/email, which is why it was his wife's address to which the letter
was sent). As well, his (wife's) email wasn't disclosed.

So, this is a discussion among those who are following our adventures. It
won't make it into my log, nor any of the forums I populate as well/either.

As it turns out, he's not a complete nut. He was having a panic attack, and
such have previously triggered grand mal siezures (he's under medication for
epilepsy, and hasn't had a siezure of any size - petite or grand - for
several years), so he was very anxious (also suffers from anxiety, I've
since learned) to get away for a bit.

We're communicating, at the moment, and I'm sure it will all work out OK,
whether he's with us as we finish or not.

However, I'll not share his response nor my reply to his mail here :{))

L8R

Skip, taking a family day today

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

"WaIIy" wrote in message
...

(clip of my last)

However, I'll not share his response nor my reply to his mail here :{))

L8R

Skip, taking a family day today

I have a copy -

Dear Skip,

You're driving me nuts.

Regards,

Your Helper

LOL!!!


--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain