Some Rube posted that current from an alternator never goes to zero.

WRONG.

1) an alternator produces alternating current.

2) alternating current alternates directions.

3) every time the current reverses, it MUST stop and go to zero.

4) if it did not stop and go to zero it could not reverse - it could not
alternate.


When you rectify this stop-and-go current through a bridge setup of diodes,
all that happens is the direction of the current is is made to flow the same
direction via the correct placement of diodes which allow current one way
but not the other. However, re-routing the current to all the same direction
(DC) does not and cannot eliminate those finite periods of time when the
original alternating current stops and reverses directions. This alternating
current is produced by the north and south poles lines of flux cutting
through a coil of wire. It goes one way, stops between poles, and then goes
back the other way.

Walk forward, then walk backward. There will be a finite period of time when
you're not moving because you have completely stopped when you reversed
directions. You can never eliminate the stop.

Wilbur Hubbard

Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
Some Rube posted that current from an alternator never goes to zero.

WRONG.

1) an alternator produces alternating current.

2) alternating current alternates directions.

3) every time the current reverses, it MUST stop and go to zero.

4) if it did not stop and go to zero it could not reverse - it could not
alternate.


When you rectify this stop-and-go current through a bridge setup of diodes,
all that happens is the direction of the current is is made to flow the same
direction via the correct placement of diodes which allow current one way
but not the other. However, re-routing the current to all the same direction
(DC) does not and cannot eliminate those finite periods of time when the
original alternating current stops and reverses directions. This alternating
current is produced by the north and south poles lines of flux cutting
through a coil of wire. It goes one way, stops between poles, and then goes
back the other way.

Walk forward, then walk backward. There will be a finite period of time when
you're not moving because you have completely stopped when you reversed
directions. You can never eliminate the stop.

Wilbur Hubbard



Have you had your flux capacitor checked lately? I think it is down a
few quartz.

In article .com,
llid says...

Some Rube posted that current from an alternator never goes to zero.

WRONG.

1) an alternator produces alternating current.

2) alternating current alternates directions.

3) every time the current reverses, it MUST stop and go to zero.

4) if it did not stop and go to zero it could not reverse - it could not
alternate.


When you rectify this stop-and-go current through a bridge setup of diodes,
all that happens is the direction of the current is is made to flow the same
direction via the correct placement of diodes which allow current one way
but not the other. However, re-routing the current to all the same direction
(DC) does not and cannot eliminate those finite periods of time when the
original alternating current stops and reverses directions. This alternating
current is produced by the north and south poles lines of flux cutting
through a coil of wire. It goes one way, stops between poles, and then goes
back the other way.

Walk forward, then walk backward. There will be a finite period of time when
you're not moving because you have completely stopped when you reversed
directions. You can never eliminate the stop.

What you've said is true for a single-phase alternator. Most auto and
marine alternators are at least 3-phase systems that combine the output
from the three phases through multiple diodes. In those systems one
phase is always providing current through the diodes and the output
voltage never drops to zero.


Mark Borgerson

"Mark Borgerson" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
llid says...

Some Rube posted that current from an alternator never goes to zero.

WRONG.

1) an alternator produces alternating current.

2) alternating current alternates directions.

3) every time the current reverses, it MUST stop and go to zero.

4) if it did not stop and go to zero it could not reverse - it could not
alternate.


When you rectify this stop-and-go current through a bridge setup of
diodes,
all that happens is the direction of the current is is made to flow the
same
direction via the correct placement of diodes which allow current one way
but not the other. However, re-routing the current to all the same
direction
(DC) does not and cannot eliminate those finite periods of time when the
original alternating current stops and reverses directions. This
alternating
current is produced by the north and south poles lines of flux cutting
through a coil of wire. It goes one way, stops between poles, and then
goes
back the other way.

Walk forward, then walk backward. There will be a finite period of time
when
you're not moving because you have completely stopped when you reversed
directions. You can never eliminate the stop.

What you've said is true for a single-phase alternator. Most auto and
marine alternators are at least 3-phase systems that combine the output
from the three phases through multiple diodes. In those systems one
phase is always providing current through the diodes and the output
voltage never drops to zero.


Mark Borgerson


I disagree! Three-phase means three current stoppages. Remember, I'm
talking current (amperage) not voltage. Voltage is just another word for
pressure. I'm talking the two-part electrical concept of amperage where you
have both pressure and flow. Without voltage, of course, you will not have
any flow. Without a circuit you will not have any amperage. When you say the
output voltage never goes to zero that's incorrect. Sure you can put a volt
meter in parallel but no volt meter in the world has a fast enough needle
(analog type) or readout (digital type) that can respond fast enough to
alternator-produced stoppages. It reads an average over a finite period of
time.

But, we are discussing amperage which is flow. I say even in a three-phase
alternator the flow MUST stop every time the current reverses in the
alternating current section prior to the rectification process. Three-phase
simply means that the current reverses three times as much per revolution.
Three stops that don't go away when the current passes through the
rectifier. Even if the phases are overlapped there still will be a finite
period of time when the current stops so it drops the overall amperage. Done
right, you are correct, it won't go to zero but it will show a reduction
provided your amp meter is responsive enough to measure it. Since none are,
they necessarily measure an average over the sampling time period.

The gauss in the magnetic field around the wire is what clamp-type amp meter
measures. It will not measure the peaks and valleys because it's just not
responsive enough. So it measures an average somewhere in the middle of the
peaks and valleys. Consequently it might read five amps when ten are really
being produced from a peak standpoint. Use the same clamp meter on a load
from a 12V battery and it will read correctly as there is true and steady DC
current to measure.

Wilbur Hubbard

In article .com,
llid says...

"Mark Borgerson" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
llid says...

Some Rube posted that current from an alternator never goes to zero.

WRONG.

1) an alternator produces alternating current.

2) alternating current alternates directions.

3) every time the current reverses, it MUST stop and go to zero.

4) if it did not stop and go to zero it could not reverse - it could not
alternate.


When you rectify this stop-and-go current through a bridge setup of
diodes,
all that happens is the direction of the current is is made to flow the
same
direction via the correct placement of diodes which allow current one way
but not the other. However, re-routing the current to all the same
direction
(DC) does not and cannot eliminate those finite periods of time when the
original alternating current stops and reverses directions. This
alternating
current is produced by the north and south poles lines of flux cutting
through a coil of wire. It goes one way, stops between poles, and then
goes
back the other way.

Walk forward, then walk backward. There will be a finite period of time
when
you're not moving because you have completely stopped when you reversed
directions. You can never eliminate the stop.

What you've said is true for a single-phase alternator. Most auto and
marine alternators are at least 3-phase systems that combine the output
from the three phases through multiple diodes. In those systems one
phase is always providing current through the diodes and the output
voltage never drops to zero.


Mark Borgerson


I disagree! Three-phase means three current stoppages. Remember, I'm
talking current (amperage) not voltage. Voltage is just another word for
pressure. I'm talking the two-part electrical concept of amperage where you
have both pressure and flow. Without voltage, of course, you will not have
any flow. Without a circuit you will not have any amperage. When you say the
output voltage never goes to zero that's incorrect. Sure you can put a volt
meter in parallel but no volt meter in the world has a fast enough needle
(analog type) or readout (digital type) that can respond fast enough to
alternator-produced stoppages. It reads an average over a finite period of
time.

But, we are discussing amperage which is flow. I say even in a three-phase
alternator the flow MUST stop every time the current reverses in the
alternating current section prior to the rectification process. Three-phase
simply means that the current reverses three times as much per revolution.
Three stops that don't go away when the current passes through the
rectifier. Even if the phases are overlapped there still will be a finite
period of time when the current stops so it drops the overall amperage. Done
right, you are correct, it won't go to zero but it will show a reduction
provided your amp meter is responsive enough to measure it. Since none are,
they necessarily measure an average over the sampling time period.

In a three-phase system, there are three separate windings that each
generate a sinusoidal waveform. They are arranged so that when one
winding is a zero voltage, the other two are not. Thus, the total
rectified voltage never drops to zero and the current also never drops
to zero. The three phases each have their own pair of diodes, so that
the three waveforms are summed together.

"Some Basic factoids about 3 phase.... Most of the electric power in
the world is 3 phase. The concept was originally conceived by Nikola
Tesla and was proven that 3 phase was far superior to single phase
power. 3 phase power is typically 150% more efficient than single phase
in the same power range. In a single phase unit the power falls to zero
three times during each cycle, in 3 phase it never drops to zero. The
power delivered to the load is the same at any instant. Also, in 3
phase the conductors need only be 75% the size of conductors for single
phase for the same power output."

http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/3_phase_basics.htm

"To provide direct current with low ripple, automotive alternators have
a three-phase winding. In addition, the pole-pieces of the rotor are
shaped (claw-pole) so as to produce a voltage waveform closer to a
square wave that, when rectified by the diodes, produces even less
ripple than the rectification of three-phase sinusoidal voltages."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternator

There's a plot of the output voltages at:

http://www.alternatorparts.com/under...lternators.htm

You can see that the voltage, and thus, the current, never
drops below about 10V.


Reading through those references will improve your understanding
of modern 3-phase alternators.



The gauss in the magnetic field around the wire is what clamp-type amp meter
measures. It will not measure the peaks and valleys because it's just not
responsive enough. So it measures an average somewhere in the middle of the
peaks and valleys. Consequently it might read five amps when ten are really
being produced from a peak standpoint. Use the same clamp meter on a load
from a 12V battery and it will read correctly as there is true and steady DC
current to measure.

The ripple on a three phase alternator output is only about 15%.

Mark Borgerson

On Mon, 9 May 2011 19:07:31 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Mark Borgerson" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
llid says...

Some Rube posted that current from an alternator never goes to zero.

WRONG.

1) an alternator produces alternating current.

2) alternating current alternates directions.

3) every time the current reverses, it MUST stop and go to zero.

4) if it did not stop and go to zero it could not reverse - it could not
alternate.


When you rectify this stop-and-go current through a bridge setup of
diodes,
all that happens is the direction of the current is is made to flow the
same
direction via the correct placement of diodes which allow current one way
but not the other. However, re-routing the current to all the same
direction
(DC) does not and cannot eliminate those finite periods of time when the
original alternating current stops and reverses directions. This
alternating
current is produced by the north and south poles lines of flux cutting
through a coil of wire. It goes one way, stops between poles, and then
goes
back the other way.

Walk forward, then walk backward. There will be a finite period of time
when
you're not moving because you have completely stopped when you reversed
directions. You can never eliminate the stop.

What you've said is true for a single-phase alternator. Most auto and
marine alternators are at least 3-phase systems that combine the output
from the three phases through multiple diodes. In those systems one
phase is always providing current through the diodes and the output
voltage never drops to zero.


Mark Borgerson


I disagree! Three-phase means three current stoppages. Remember, I'm
talking current (amperage) not voltage. Voltage is just another word for
pressure. I'm talking the two-part electrical concept of amperage where you
have both pressure and flow. Without voltage, of course, you will not have
any flow. Without a circuit you will not have any amperage. When you say the
output voltage never goes to zero that's incorrect. Sure you can put a volt
meter in parallel but no volt meter in the world has a fast enough needle
(analog type) or readout (digital type) that can respond fast enough to
alternator-produced stoppages. It reads an average over a finite period of
time.

But, we are discussing amperage which is flow. I say even in a three-phase
alternator the flow MUST stop every time the current reverses in the
alternating current section prior to the rectification process. Three-phase
simply means that the current reverses three times as much per revolution.
Three stops that don't go away when the current passes through the
rectifier. Even if the phases are overlapped there still will be a finite
period of time when the current stops so it drops the overall amperage. Done
right, you are correct, it won't go to zero but it will show a reduction
provided your amp meter is responsive enough to measure it. Since none are,
they necessarily measure an average over the sampling time period.

The gauss in the magnetic field around the wire is what clamp-type amp meter
measures. It will not measure the peaks and valleys because it's just not
responsive enough. So it measures an average somewhere in the middle of the
peaks and valleys. Consequently it might read five amps when ten are really
being produced from a peak standpoint. Use the same clamp meter on a load
from a 12V battery and it will read correctly as there is true and steady DC
current to measure.

Wilbur Hubbard


Willie-boy you're ALMOST right. Rather typical of most of your posts,
I'd say.

Now, pay attention - As the message you replied to told you (and one
has to assume that you were too stupid to comprehend) a boat, or
automobile, "alternator" is a three phase alternation and if you only
looked at the output of a single phase you would be correct. The
current would drop to zero at the moment that the stator and rotor
coils were aligned (no relative motion between the two).

HOWEVER, the automobile/boat alternator is not a single phase
alternator it is a three phase alternator with three sets of coils and
thus there are three separate electrical currents 120 degrees apart.
Since the output of these three circuits are combined in the
rectification stage you end up with a constant DC output that
fluctuates in voltage.

Now, having taken the trouble to inform you of this rather basic
electrical knowledge I might also inform you that all of this
information is available to you if you have a computer - it is all
right there on the WEB if you are just bright enough to go and look
for it. which you apparently not.

Please see http://www.bcae1.com/charging.htm which has pictures if you
have trouble understanding words. Please do visit the site and make an
effort to understand the information there before you reply.

Cheers,

Bruce

On Mon, 9 May 2011 12:35:01 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

Some Rube posted that current from an alternator never goes to zero.

WRONG.

1) an alternator produces alternating current.

2) alternating current alternates directions.

3) every time the current reverses, it MUST stop and go to zero.

4) if it did not stop and go to zero it could not reverse - it could not
alternate.


When you rectify this stop-and-go current through a bridge setup of diodes,
all that happens is the direction of the current is is made to flow the same
direction via the correct placement of diodes which allow current one way
but not the other. However, re-routing the current to all the same direction
(DC) does not and cannot eliminate those finite periods of time when the
original alternating current stops and reverses directions. This alternating
current is produced by the north and south poles lines of flux cutting
through a coil of wire. It goes one way, stops between poles, and then goes
back the other way.

Walk forward, then walk backward. There will be a finite period of time when
you're not moving because you have completely stopped when you reversed
directions. You can never eliminate the stop.

Wilbur Hubbard


Willy-boy you are certainly correct that "Lots of electrical ignorance
here" but unfortunately it is all on your side of the fence. In
another post I have taken the trouble of explaining how a three phase
alternator (the kind found in a car or boat) works. I even provide a
web site address with pictures if you are having troubles with the big
words.

Do try to visit the site and look at the pretty pictures before you
continue on demonstrating how stupid you really are.

Cheers,

Bruce

On Mon, 9 May 2011 19:07:31 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Mark Borgerson" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
llid says...

Some Rube posted that current from an alternator never goes to zero.

WRONG.

1) an alternator produces alternating current.

2) alternating current alternates directions.

3) every time the current reverses, it MUST stop and go to zero.

4) if it did not stop and go to zero it could not reverse - it could not
alternate.


When you rectify this stop-and-go current through a bridge setup of
diodes,
all that happens is the direction of the current is is made to flow the
same
direction via the correct placement of diodes which allow current one way
but not the other. However, re-routing the current to all the same
direction
(DC) does not and cannot eliminate those finite periods of time when the
original alternating current stops and reverses directions. This
alternating
current is produced by the north and south poles lines of flux cutting
through a coil of wire. It goes one way, stops between poles, and then
goes
back the other way.

Walk forward, then walk backward. There will be a finite period of time
when
you're not moving because you have completely stopped when you reversed
directions. You can never eliminate the stop.

What you've said is true for a single-phase alternator. Most auto and
marine alternators are at least 3-phase systems that combine the output
from the three phases through multiple diodes. In those systems one
phase is always providing current through the diodes and the output
voltage never drops to zero.


Mark Borgerson


I disagree! Three-phase means three current stoppages. Remember, I'm
talking current (amperage) not voltage. Voltage is just another word for
pressure. I'm talking the two-part electrical concept of amperage where you
have both pressure and flow. Without voltage, of course, you will not have
any flow. Without a circuit you will not have any amperage. When you say the
output voltage never goes to zero that's incorrect. Sure you can put a volt
meter in parallel but no volt meter in the world has a fast enough needle
(analog type) or readout (digital type) that can respond fast enough to
alternator-produced stoppages. It reads an average over a finite period of
time.

But, we are discussing amperage which is flow. I say even in a three-phase
alternator the flow MUST stop every time the current reverses in the
alternating current section prior to the rectification process. Three-phase
simply means that the current reverses three times as much per revolution.
Three stops that don't go away when the current passes through the
rectifier. Even if the phases are overlapped there still will be a finite
period of time when the current stops so it drops the overall amperage. Done
right, you are correct, it won't go to zero but it will show a reduction
provided your amp meter is responsive enough to measure it. Since none are,
they necessarily measure an average over the sampling time period.

The gauss in the magnetic field around the wire is what clamp-type amp meter
measures. It will not measure the peaks and valleys because it's just not
responsive enough. So it measures an average somewhere in the middle of the
peaks and valleys. Consequently it might read five amps when ten are really
being produced from a peak standpoint. Use the same clamp meter on a load
from a 12V battery and it will read correctly as there is true and steady DC
current to measure.

Wilbur Hubbard



In a three-phase alternator (as most automotive or marine
alternators), there are three separate AC outputs, differing in phase
(timing) by 120 degrees (1/3 of a cycle). If phase A crosses zero
going positive at a given time, phase B will do so 1/3 of a cycle
later, and phase C another third of a cycle later.

When you rectify the result, the sum of the rectified voltage or
currents _will_not_ drop to zero at any time as when any one phase
crosses zero, the other two are providing some voltage or current.


--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

In article .com,
llid says...

"Mark Borgerson" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
llid says...

Some Rube posted that current from an alternator never goes to zero.

WRONG.

1) an alternator produces alternating current.

2) alternating current alternates directions.

3) every time the current reverses, it MUST stop and go to zero.

4) if it did not stop and go to zero it could not reverse - it could not
alternate.


When you rectify this stop-and-go current through a bridge setup of
diodes,
all that happens is the direction of the current is is made to flow the
same
direction via the correct placement of diodes which allow current one way
but not the other. However, re-routing the current to all the same
direction
(DC) does not and cannot eliminate those finite periods of time when the
original alternating current stops and reverses directions. This
alternating
current is produced by the north and south poles lines of flux cutting
through a coil of wire. It goes one way, stops between poles, and then
goes
back the other way.

Walk forward, then walk backward. There will be a finite period of time
when
you're not moving because you have completely stopped when you reversed
directions. You can never eliminate the stop.

What you've said is true for a single-phase alternator. Most auto and
marine alternators are at least 3-phase systems that combine the output
from the three phases through multiple diodes. In those systems one
phase is always providing current through the diodes and the output
voltage never drops to zero.


Mark Borgerson


I disagree! Three-phase means three current stoppages. Remember, I'm
talking current (amperage) not voltage. Voltage is just another word for
pressure. I'm talking the two-part electrical concept of amperage where you
have both pressure and flow. Without voltage, of course, you will not have
any flow. Without a circuit you will not have any amperage. When you say the
output voltage never goes to zero that's incorrect. Sure you can put a volt
meter in parallel but no volt meter in the world has a fast enough needle
(analog type) or readout (digital type) that can respond fast enough to
alternator-produced stoppages. It reads an average over a finite period of
time.

But, we are discussing amperage which is flow. I say even in a three-phase
alternator the flow MUST stop every time the current reverses in the
alternating current section prior to the rectification process. Three-phase
simply means that the current reverses three times as much per revolution.
Three stops that don't go away when the current passes through the
rectifier. Even if the phases are overlapped there still will be a finite
period of time when the current stops so it drops the overall amperage. Done
right, you are correct, it won't go to zero but it will show a reduction
provided your amp meter is responsive enough to measure it. Since none are,
they necessarily measure an average over the sampling time period.

In a three-phase system, there are three separate windings that each
generate a sinusoidal waveform. They are arranged so that when one
winding is a zero voltage, the other two are not. Thus, the total
rectified voltage never drops to zero and the current also never drops
to zero. The three phases each have their own pair of diodes, so that
the three waveforms are summed together.

"Some Basic factoids about 3 phase.... Most of the electric power in
the world is 3 phase. The concept was originally conceived by Nikola
Tesla and was proven that 3 phase was far superior to single phase
power. 3 phase power is typically 150% more efficient than single phase
in the same power range. In a single phase unit the power falls to zero
three times during each cycle, in 3 phase it never drops to zero. The
power delivered to the load is the same at any instant. Also, in 3
phase the conductors need only be 75% the size of conductors for single
phase for the same power output."

http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/3_phase_basics.htm

"To provide direct current with low ripple, automotive alternators have
a three-phase winding. In addition, the pole-pieces of the rotor are
shaped (claw-pole) so as to produce a voltage waveform closer to a
square wave that, when rectified by the diodes, produces even less
ripple than the rectification of three-phase sinusoidal voltages."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternator

There's a plot of the output voltages at:

http://www.alternatorparts.com/under...lternators.htm

You can see that the voltage, and thus, the current, never
drops below about 10V.


Reading through those references will improve your understanding
of modern 3-phase alternators.



The gauss in the magnetic field around the wire is what clamp-type amp meter
measures. It will not measure the peaks and valleys because it's just not
responsive enough. So it measures an average somewhere in the middle of the
peaks and valleys. Consequently it might read five amps when ten are really
being produced from a peak standpoint. Use the same clamp meter on a load
from a 12V battery and it will read correctly as there is true and steady DC
current to measure.

The ripple on a three phase alternator output is only about 15%.

Mark Borgerson

On 5/10/2011 8:25 AM, Mark Borgerson wrote:

"Some Basic factoids about 3 phase.... Most of the electric power in
the world is 3 phase. The concept was originally conceived by Nikola
Tesla and was proven that 3 phase was far superior to single phase
power. 3 phase power is typically 150% more efficient than single phase
in the same power range. In a single phase unit the power falls to zero
three times during each cycle, in 3 phase it never drops to zero. The
power delivered to the load is the same at any instant. Also, in 3
phase the conductors need only be 75% the size of conductors for single
phase for the same power output."

http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/3_phase_basics.htm

"To provide direct current with low ripple, automotive alternators have
a three-phase winding. In addition, the pole-pieces of the rotor are
shaped (claw-pole) so as to produce a voltage waveform closer to a
square wave that, when rectified by the diodes, produces even less
ripple than the rectification of three-phase sinusoidal voltages."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternator

There's a plot of the output voltages at:

http://www.alternatorparts.com/under...lternators.htm

You can see that the voltage, and thus, the current, never
drops below about 10V.
/snip/
The ripple on a three phase alternator output is only about 15%.

Mark Borgerson


Interesting inputs. If voltage and current doesn't drop below 10 volts
(and presumably peaks at 14 volt or more?) then the power variation
might be 10X10 / 14X14 - a ratio of 1:2 possibly??

Brian W