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#1
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Cannibal
On Thu, 27 Jan 2011 18:05:49 -0800, Jessica B
wrote: On Thu, 27 Jan 2011 19:32:07 +0700, Bruce wrote: On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 12:45:51 -0800, Jessica B wrote: On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 20:07:49 +0700, Bruce wrote: On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 18:33:15 -0800, Jessica B wrote: On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 07:02:08 +0700, Bruce wrote: much snipped Sorry, but I didn't understand even 1/2 of this. Maybe one should not go sailing if you can't deal with the issues that come up, short of being run over by a tanker or something? Sounds pretty simple. Can you deal with a tsunami arrives with no warning and kills some 5,000 people in your immediate area? A 60 MPH squall that hits you at night? Of course not. A couple of things occur to me. First, I thought a tsunami was only dangerous near land. If that's the case, then how could it do damage to a boat that's sailing offshore? Second, it seems like you should be able to handle high winds. Wouldn't you be prepared for that? Why are you sleeping when there's a storm going on? snipped. A tsunami, or any other wave is simply water in motion. Depending on the length and speed of the wave, the amount of vertical movement is generally dependant on the depth of the water it is moving in. So you are correct to say that in deep water they don't have much height, but simply saying "off shore" isn't a sufficient description as you can be quite a distance "off shore" and still have relatively shallow water. in among the S.W. Thai waters, where the Tsunami did the most damage, waters are generally less then 100 ft. A "Sumatra", which might be called a line squall in other parts of the world, is a rather brisk wind that travels fairly rapidly and if at night generally is bit of a shock. In the case I mentioned I was sailing north along the E. Coast of Malaysia on a fine moonlit night with about 5 K. wind. Then, within only a few minutes it was blowing 60 miles an hour for about an hour. As in the case of the Tsunami, it has been stated that it is the worst natural disaster in Thai history. A bit hard to plan for. Squalls occur, frequently with no warning, certainly not something you can specifically prepare for other then in a general way that you know it might blow a bit. And I don't remember saying I was asleep when the squall hit. Cheers, Bruce |
#2
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Cannibal
On Fri, 28 Jan 2011 19:33:51 +0700, Bruce
wrote: On Thu, 27 Jan 2011 18:05:49 -0800, Jessica B wrote: On Thu, 27 Jan 2011 19:32:07 +0700, Bruce wrote: On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 12:45:51 -0800, Jessica B wrote: On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 20:07:49 +0700, Bruce wrote: On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 18:33:15 -0800, Jessica B wrote: On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 07:02:08 +0700, Bruce wrote: much snipped Sorry, but I didn't understand even 1/2 of this. Maybe one should not go sailing if you can't deal with the issues that come up, short of being run over by a tanker or something? Sounds pretty simple. Can you deal with a tsunami arrives with no warning and kills some 5,000 people in your immediate area? A 60 MPH squall that hits you at night? Of course not. A couple of things occur to me. First, I thought a tsunami was only dangerous near land. If that's the case, then how could it do damage to a boat that's sailing offshore? Second, it seems like you should be able to handle high winds. Wouldn't you be prepared for that? Why are you sleeping when there's a storm going on? snipped. A tsunami, or any other wave is simply water in motion. Depending on the length and speed of the wave, the amount of vertical movement is generally dependant on the depth of the water it is moving in. So you are correct to say that in deep water they don't have much height, but simply saying "off shore" isn't a sufficient description as you can be quite a distance "off shore" and still have relatively shallow water. in among the S.W. Thai waters, where the Tsunami did the most damage, waters are generally less then 100 ft. A "Sumatra", which might be called a line squall in other parts of the world, is a rather brisk wind that travels fairly rapidly and if at night generally is bit of a shock. In the case I mentioned I was sailing north along the E. Coast of Malaysia on a fine moonlit night with about 5 K. wind. Then, within only a few minutes it was blowing 60 miles an hour for about an hour. As in the case of the Tsunami, it has been stated that it is the worst natural disaster in Thai history. A bit hard to plan for. Squalls occur, frequently with no warning, certainly not something you can specifically prepare for other then in a general way that you know it might blow a bit. And I don't remember saying I was asleep when the squall hit. Cheers, Bruce Not saying you were asleep. Sorry if I implied that. As to water depth, in the middle of the ocean there's no dispute right? No damage. So, you're claim is that in 100 ft of water, the violence would be great? I recall hearing? reading? about people in their sailboat in the harbor who rode it out by getting going, then rescued a bunch of people. Seems to me you're safer moving and away from the marina, which was my point. You're saying you can't see a squall coming? You can't be prepared to deal with it? It just happens and there's nothing that can be done? Seems wrong to me.... |
#3
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Cannibal
On Fri, 28 Jan 2011 17:12:50 -0800, Jessica B
wrote: On Fri, 28 Jan 2011 19:33:51 +0700, Bruce wrote: On Thu, 27 Jan 2011 18:05:49 -0800, Jessica B wrote: On Thu, 27 Jan 2011 19:32:07 +0700, Bruce wrote: On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 12:45:51 -0800, Jessica B wrote: On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 20:07:49 +0700, Bruce wrote: On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 18:33:15 -0800, Jessica B wrote: On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 07:02:08 +0700, Bruce wrote: much snipped Sorry, but I didn't understand even 1/2 of this. Maybe one should not go sailing if you can't deal with the issues that come up, short of being run over by a tanker or something? Sounds pretty simple. Can you deal with a tsunami arrives with no warning and kills some 5,000 people in your immediate area? A 60 MPH squall that hits you at night? Of course not. A couple of things occur to me. First, I thought a tsunami was only dangerous near land. If that's the case, then how could it do damage to a boat that's sailing offshore? Second, it seems like you should be able to handle high winds. Wouldn't you be prepared for that? Why are you sleeping when there's a storm going on? snipped. A tsunami, or any other wave is simply water in motion. Depending on the length and speed of the wave, the amount of vertical movement is generally dependant on the depth of the water it is moving in. So you are correct to say that in deep water they don't have much height, but simply saying "off shore" isn't a sufficient description as you can be quite a distance "off shore" and still have relatively shallow water. in among the S.W. Thai waters, where the Tsunami did the most damage, waters are generally less then 100 ft. A "Sumatra", which might be called a line squall in other parts of the world, is a rather brisk wind that travels fairly rapidly and if at night generally is bit of a shock. In the case I mentioned I was sailing north along the E. Coast of Malaysia on a fine moonlit night with about 5 K. wind. Then, within only a few minutes it was blowing 60 miles an hour for about an hour. As in the case of the Tsunami, it has been stated that it is the worst natural disaster in Thai history. A bit hard to plan for. Squalls occur, frequently with no warning, certainly not something you can specifically prepare for other then in a general way that you know it might blow a bit. And I don't remember saying I was asleep when the squall hit. Cheers, Bruce Not saying you were asleep. Sorry if I implied that. As to water depth, in the middle of the ocean there's no dispute right? No damage. So, you're claim is that in 100 ft of water, the violence would be great? Actually in my case it was the trough that was the most noticeable. I was sitting on the cockpit combing and watching a catamaran and a mono hull, both headed toward Phi Phi and discussing, with my wife, which one would get there first when suddenly the horizon was only a very short distance away, perhaps 50 - 100 meters. By the time I could say, "What the...." the horizon was back to normal and we saw the wave hit an island some 3 miles east of us. I recall hearing? reading? about people in their sailboat in the harbor who rode it out by getting going, then rescued a bunch of people. Seems to me you're safer moving and away from the marina, which was my point. Yes, we had some friends anchored in a bay on the S.W. side of Phuket and when the water suddenly went away, as they described it, they, a bloke and his wife, started the engine and knocked the lock off the anchor winch and ran the chain overboard and headed for the ocean. They said that they got far enough off shore by the time the crest got there that they just bounced up and down a bit. You're saying you can't see a squall coming? You can't be prepared to deal with it? It just happens and there's nothing that can be done? Seems wrong to me.... I didn't say that you can't see a squall coming, in daylight but after dark they are not easy to see. After all the squall may be advancing at 60 MPH. Now if you are sailing along with, say one reef pulled in, with the wind blowing from the side of the boat - what is called a reach - then from the time you see the squall is approaching until it gets to you can be a very short time, and if it is after dark with only a light wind blowing it may hit before you even know it is coming. In the situation I described it will knock your boat down - lay it over on its side - which by itself is not particularly hazardous in a well found sloop (single masted boat), but will certainly make you sit up and take notice. Cheers, Bruce |
#4
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Cannibal
On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 19:50:52 +0700, Bruce
wrote: Sorry, but I didn't understand even 1/2 of this. Maybe one should not go sailing if you can't deal with the issues that come up, short of being run over by a tanker or something? Sounds pretty simple. Can you deal with a tsunami arrives with no warning and kills some 5,000 people in your immediate area? A 60 MPH squall that hits you at night? Of course not. A couple of things occur to me. First, I thought a tsunami was only dangerous near land. If that's the case, then how could it do damage to a boat that's sailing offshore? Second, it seems like you should be able to handle high winds. Wouldn't you be prepared for that? Why are you sleeping when there's a storm going on? snipped. A tsunami, or any other wave is simply water in motion. Depending on the length and speed of the wave, the amount of vertical movement is generally dependant on the depth of the water it is moving in. So you are correct to say that in deep water they don't have much height, but simply saying "off shore" isn't a sufficient description as you can be quite a distance "off shore" and still have relatively shallow water. in among the S.W. Thai waters, where the Tsunami did the most damage, waters are generally less then 100 ft. A "Sumatra", which might be called a line squall in other parts of the world, is a rather brisk wind that travels fairly rapidly and if at night generally is bit of a shock. In the case I mentioned I was sailing north along the E. Coast of Malaysia on a fine moonlit night with about 5 K. wind. Then, within only a few minutes it was blowing 60 miles an hour for about an hour. As in the case of the Tsunami, it has been stated that it is the worst natural disaster in Thai history. A bit hard to plan for. Squalls occur, frequently with no warning, certainly not something you can specifically prepare for other then in a general way that you know it might blow a bit. And I don't remember saying I was asleep when the squall hit. Not saying you were asleep. Sorry if I implied that. As to water depth, in the middle of the ocean there's no dispute right? No damage. So, you're claim is that in 100 ft of water, the violence would be great? Actually in my case it was the trough that was the most noticeable. I was sitting on the cockpit combing and watching a catamaran and a mono hull, both headed toward Phi Phi and discussing, with my wife, which one would get there first when suddenly the horizon was only a very short distance away, perhaps 50 - 100 meters. By the time I could say, "What the...." the horizon was back to normal and we saw the wave hit an island some 3 miles east of us. So, nothing much happened on your boat. You noticed it, but that was about it. I recall hearing? reading? about people in their sailboat in the harbor who rode it out by getting going, then rescued a bunch of people. Seems to me you're safer moving and away from the marina, which was my point. Yes, we had some friends anchored in a bay on the S.W. side of Phuket and when the water suddenly went away, as they described it, they, a bloke and his wife, started the engine and knocked the lock off the anchor winch and ran the chain overboard and headed for the ocean. They said that they got far enough off shore by the time the crest got there that they just bounced up and down a bit. Sounds like they were prepared and did the right thing...? You're saying you can't see a squall coming? You can't be prepared to deal with it? It just happens and there's nothing that can be done? Seems wrong to me.... I didn't say that you can't see a squall coming, in daylight but after dark they are not easy to see. After all the squall may be advancing at 60 MPH. Now if you are sailing along with, say one reef pulled in, with the wind blowing from the side of the boat - what is called a reach - then from the time you see the squall is approaching until it gets to you can be a very short time, and if it is after dark with only a light wind blowing it may hit before you even know it is coming. In the situation I described it will knock your boat down - lay it over on its side - which by itself is not particularly hazardous in a well found sloop (single masted boat), but will certainly make you sit up and take notice. Well, hang on a sec... I don't know what reef pulled in means, but when the wind blows against the sail, the boat leans over... knocks down? Ok. Then what? It comes back up or does it keep going? What happens if you release all the sails? If it happens at night, then ok, you got hit the first time, but then.... ? We released all the ropes when we brought them down at the end of the day... the sails and ropes just flapped around a lot and the boat stopped moving. In the book the Perfect Storm, the sailboat seems to take it long enough for the people to be rescued, and it seems like the winds in that storm are much higher than in a squall. |
#5
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Cannibal
On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 12:25:33 -0800, Jessica B
wrote: On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 19:50:52 +0700, Bruce wrote: Actually in my case it was the trough that was the most noticeable. I was sitting on the cockpit combing and watching a catamaran and a mono hull, both headed toward Phi Phi and discussing, with my wife, which one would get there first when suddenly the horizon was only a very short distance away, perhaps 50 - 100 meters. By the time I could say, "What the...." the horizon was back to normal and we saw the wave hit an island some 3 miles east of us. So, nothing much happened on your boat. You noticed it, but that was about it. Jesus, what did you expect? Had the wave arrived an hour earlier it would have crushed the boat against an island and neither I or my wife would be here to talk about it. The discussion started with your talk about being "prepared" for calamities at sea. I was simply trying to demonstrate that not everything can be prepared for. I recall hearing? reading? about people in their sailboat in the harbor who rode it out by getting going, then rescued a bunch of people. Seems to me you're safer moving and away from the marina, which was my point. Yes, we had some friends anchored in a bay on the S.W. side of Phuket and when the water suddenly went away, as they described it, they, a bloke and his wife, started the engine and knocked the lock off the anchor winch and ran the chain overboard and headed for the ocean. They said that they got far enough off shore by the time the crest got there that they just bounced up and down a bit. Sounds like they were prepared and did the right thing...? Nope. In the first place they didn't know what was happening when it occurred. All they knew was that "the water went away", as they said. Their reaction was simply to get into more water so if it continued to "go away" they would still be floating. Starting the engine... well you turn the key, so perhaps leaving the key in the switch (as nearly all Yachties do) is being prepared. Running the anchor chain out to get free of the anchor is actually being un-prepared as most people advocate tying a rope to the last link in the anchor chain so if you do run the chain all the way out you don't lose it. In the situation I described it will knock your boat down - lay it over on its side - which by itself is not particularly hazardous in a well found sloop (single masted boat), but will certainly make you sit up and take notice. Well, hang on a sec... I don't know what reef pulled in means, but when the wind blows against the sail, the boat leans over... knocks down? Ok. Then what? It comes back up or does it keep going? What happens if you release all the sails? If it happens at night, then ok, you got hit the first time, but then.... ? A knock down occurs when the wind against the sail comes from, broadly speaking, either side of the boat. If the wind suddenly blows hard enough to overcome the weight of the boat, the boat tips over. However, as the boat tips over (heels) the grip of the rudder on the water diminishes and there is less force holding the boat on its heading. What happens is that the wind forces the boat over on its side, but then the ruder is not holding the boat on its course so it turns into the wind, which decreases the wind pressure on the sails and allows the boat to right itself. We released all the ropes when we brought them down at the end of the day... the sails and ropes just flapped around a lot and the boat stopped moving. Yes, because you released the "sheets" the ropes that hold the sail against the wind pressure and allot it to just flap - like a flag. In the book the Perfect Storm, the sailboat seems to take it long enough for the people to be rescued, and it seems like the winds in that storm are much higher than in a squall. I think that you are a bit confused as "The Perfect Storm" is a book about the swordfishing boa, the Andrea Gail, out of Gloucester, Massachusetts, that sank in 1991, in a large storm in the N. Atlantic. Cheers, Bruce |
#6
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Cannibal
On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 06:06:36 +0700, Bruce
wrote: On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 12:25:33 -0800, Jessica B wrote: On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 19:50:52 +0700, Bruce wrote: Actually in my case it was the trough that was the most noticeable. I was sitting on the cockpit combing and watching a catamaran and a mono hull, both headed toward Phi Phi and discussing, with my wife, which one would get there first when suddenly the horizon was only a very short distance away, perhaps 50 - 100 meters. By the time I could say, "What the...." the horizon was back to normal and we saw the wave hit an island some 3 miles east of us. So, nothing much happened on your boat. You noticed it, but that was about it. Jesus, what did you expect? Had the wave arrived an hour earlier it would have crushed the boat against an island and neither I or my wife would be here to talk about it. The discussion started with your talk about being "prepared" for calamities at sea. I was simply trying to demonstrate that not everything can be prepared for. Bruce, I don't think I said that. I specifically talked about getting run over by a tanker. Everyone deserves to be lucky from time to time! I'm glad you and your wife are ok! I recall hearing? reading? about people in their sailboat in the harbor who rode it out by getting going, then rescued a bunch of people. Seems to me you're safer moving and away from the marina, which was my point. Yes, we had some friends anchored in a bay on the S.W. side of Phuket and when the water suddenly went away, as they described it, they, a bloke and his wife, started the engine and knocked the lock off the anchor winch and ran the chain overboard and headed for the ocean. They said that they got far enough off shore by the time the crest got there that they just bounced up and down a bit. Sounds like they were prepared and did the right thing...? Nope. In the first place they didn't know what was happening when it occurred. All they knew was that "the water went away", as they said. Their reaction was simply to get into more water so if it continued to "go away" they would still be floating. Starting the engine... well you turn the key, so perhaps leaving the key in the switch (as nearly all Yachties do) is being prepared. Running the anchor chain out to get free of the anchor is actually being un-prepared as most people advocate tying a rope to the last link in the anchor chain so if you do run the chain all the way out you don't lose it. So, they were unprepared but did the right thing? Sounds like they were prepared to do the right thing! lol In the situation I described it will knock your boat down - lay it over on its side - which by itself is not particularly hazardous in a well found sloop (single masted boat), but will certainly make you sit up and take notice. Well, hang on a sec... I don't know what reef pulled in means, but when the wind blows against the sail, the boat leans over... knocks down? Ok. Then what? It comes back up or does it keep going? What happens if you release all the sails? If it happens at night, then ok, you got hit the first time, but then.... ? A knock down occurs when the wind against the sail comes from, broadly speaking, either side of the boat. If the wind suddenly blows hard enough to overcome the weight of the boat, the boat tips over. However, as the boat tips over (heels) the grip of the rudder on the water diminishes and there is less force holding the boat on its heading. What happens is that the wind forces the boat over on its side, but then the ruder is not holding the boat on its course so it turns into the wind, which decreases the wind pressure on the sails and allows the boat to right itself. Ok, so it rights itself, and hopefully everyone is still on the boat, along with the stuff... We released all the ropes when we brought them down at the end of the day... the sails and ropes just flapped around a lot and the boat stopped moving. Yes, because you released the "sheets" the ropes that hold the sail against the wind pressure and allot it to just flap - like a flag. Ok... well, if I got heeled, then I would release those sheets! In the book the Perfect Storm, the sailboat seems to take it long enough for the people to be rescued, and it seems like the winds in that storm are much higher than in a squall. I think that you are a bit confused as "The Perfect Storm" is a book about the swordfishing boa, the Andrea Gail, out of Gloucester, Massachusetts, that sank in 1991, in a large storm in the N. Atlantic. Cheers, Bruce There was definitely a sailboat.. Satoria I think. |
#7
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Cannibal
rOn Sat, 29 Jan 2011 16:20:32 -0800, Jessica B
wrote: On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 06:06:36 +0700, Bruce wrote: On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 12:25:33 -0800, Jessica B wrote: On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 19:50:52 +0700, Bruce wrote: Actually in my case it was the trough that was the most noticeable. I was sitting on the cockpit combing and watching a catamaran and a mono hull, both headed toward Phi Phi and discussing, with my wife, which one would get there first when suddenly the horizon was only a very short distance away, perhaps 50 - 100 meters. By the time I could say, "What the...." the horizon was back to normal and we saw the wave hit an island some 3 miles east of us. So, nothing much happened on your boat. You noticed it, but that was about it. Jesus, what did you expect? Had the wave arrived an hour earlier it would have crushed the boat against an island and neither I or my wife would be here to talk about it. The discussion started with your talk about being "prepared" for calamities at sea. I was simply trying to demonstrate that not everything can be prepared for. Bruce, I don't think I said that. I specifically talked about getting run over by a tanker. Everyone deserves to be lucky from time to time! I'm glad you and your wife are ok! I recall hearing? reading? about people in their sailboat in the harbor who rode it out by getting going, then rescued a bunch of people. Seems to me you're safer moving and away from the marina, which was my point. Yes, we had some friends anchored in a bay on the S.W. side of Phuket and when the water suddenly went away, as they described it, they, a bloke and his wife, started the engine and knocked the lock off the anchor winch and ran the chain overboard and headed for the ocean. They said that they got far enough off shore by the time the crest got there that they just bounced up and down a bit. Sounds like they were prepared and did the right thing...? Nope. In the first place they didn't know what was happening when it occurred. All they knew was that "the water went away", as they said. Their reaction was simply to get into more water so if it continued to "go away" they would still be floating. Starting the engine... well you turn the key, so perhaps leaving the key in the switch (as nearly all Yachties do) is being prepared. Running the anchor chain out to get free of the anchor is actually being un-prepared as most people advocate tying a rope to the last link in the anchor chain so if you do run the chain all the way out you don't lose it. So, they were unprepared but did the right thing? Sounds like they were prepared to do the right thing! lol In the situation I described it will knock your boat down - lay it over on its side - which by itself is not particularly hazardous in a well found sloop (single masted boat), but will certainly make you sit up and take notice. Well, hang on a sec... I don't know what reef pulled in means, but when the wind blows against the sail, the boat leans over... knocks down? Ok. Then what? It comes back up or does it keep going? What happens if you release all the sails? If it happens at night, then ok, you got hit the first time, but then.... ? A knock down occurs when the wind against the sail comes from, broadly speaking, either side of the boat. If the wind suddenly blows hard enough to overcome the weight of the boat, the boat tips over. However, as the boat tips over (heels) the grip of the rudder on the water diminishes and there is less force holding the boat on its heading. What happens is that the wind forces the boat over on its side, but then the ruder is not holding the boat on its course so it turns into the wind, which decreases the wind pressure on the sails and allows the boat to right itself. Ok, so it rights itself, and hopefully everyone is still on the boat, along with the stuff... We released all the ropes when we brought them down at the end of the day... the sails and ropes just flapped around a lot and the boat stopped moving. Yes, because you released the "sheets" the ropes that hold the sail against the wind pressure and allot it to just flap - like a flag. Ok... well, if I got heeled, then I would release those sheets! In the book the Perfect Storm, the sailboat seems to take it long enough for the people to be rescued, and it seems like the winds in that storm are much higher than in a squall. I think that you are a bit confused as "The Perfect Storm" is a book about the swordfishing boa, the Andrea Gail, out of Gloucester, Massachusetts, that sank in 1991, in a large storm in the N. Atlantic. Cheers, Bruce There was definitely a sailboat.. Satoria I think. You are correct. The Satoria was in the book. The boat where the Captain said there was no emergency but the crew called in an authorized Mayday whereby the Coast Guard came out and rescued them forcing the Captain to abandon the boat (according to statement by his son). The owner/Captain searched for and found the boat essentially undamaged since abandoned and sailed it on to Florida (I believe). Cheers, Bruce |
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