Greetings fellow sailors.

As most of you know my goal is to build a zero emissions cargo
sailing vessel.
The zero emissions part will require some fancy engineering and
advanced electronic controls to capture the kinetic energy via a CVP
prop.

I can use some serious engineering support and Toyota thinks it a
good enough ideal to have people vote on it.

If you want to see it happen, please lend your support at
https://www.yourideasforgood.com/gallery

Thanks

Best Regards,
Joe B.

On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 07:20:50 -0800 (PST), Joe
wrote:

Greetings fellow sailors.

As most of you know my goal is to build a zero emissions cargo
sailing vessel.
The zero emissions part will require some fancy engineering and
advanced electronic controls to capture the kinetic energy via a CVP
prop.

I can use some serious engineering support and Toyota thinks it a
good enough ideal to have people vote on it.

If you want to see it happen, please lend your support at
https://www.yourideasforgood.com/gallery

Thanks

Best Regards,
Joe B.

Do you plan to use the captured energy to supply house loads or to use
it as recharge/propulsion when the wind dies?

On Nov 17, 10:16*am, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 07:20:50 -0800 (PST), Joe





wrote:
Greetings fellow sailors.

As most of you know my goal is to build a zero emissions cargo
sailing vessel.
The zero emissions part will require some fancy engineering and
advanced electronic controls to capture the kinetic energy via a CVP
prop.

I can use some serious engineering support and Toyota thinks it a
good enough ideal to have people vote on it.

If you want to see it happen, please lend your support at
https://www.yourideasforgood.com/gallery

Thanks

Best Regards,
Joe B.

Do you plan to use the captured energy to supply house loads or to use
it as recharge/propulsion when the wind dies?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Both would be the goal.....zero emissions. They have some very good
re-generative systems and nickel-metal hydride and lithium-ion
batteries. The boat would have plenty of room for some huge battery
banks.

Joe

"Joe" wrote in message
...
deleted some
Both would be the goal.....zero emissions. They have some very good
re-generative systems and nickel-metal hydride and lithium-ion
batteries. The boat would have plenty of room for some huge battery
banks.




What an ignorant PUTZ! Do you have the least bit of a clue how UNGREEN the
battery manufacturing process is? Do you know ANYTHING about the laws of
physics that say you CAN'T possibly break even? Do you ever use your brain
for anything other than to keep your skull from collapsing in on itself?

That's the trouble with you 'greenies.' You're so ignorant about processes.
You seem to thrive on not seeing the big picture and this justifies your
errant thinking that you can have a zero emissions anything. Hey, Joe,
here's a clue. You can't even breathe without emitting CO2 which you
greenies now call a pollutant. How hypocritical is that, Joe? If you were
really true to your green philosophy you would stop breathing and thus do
your part to reduce CO2 emissions.

So, considering your defective thought processes, of course it's easy for
you to forget all about the adverse affects of battery manufacture,
transport and disposal or recycling because none of this fits your
pie-in-the-sky imbecility and/or your ruse of a business plan.

And, do you know what's even sadder than how you operate? It's the Rubes who
are willing to support your lies because it makes them "feel" good - never
mind it does no good whatsoever for the environment.


Wilbur Hubbard

On Nov 17, 12:12*pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

...
deleted some

Both would be the goal.....zero emissions. They have some very good
re-generative systems and nickel-metal hydride and lithium-ion
batteries. The boat would have plenty of room for some huge battery
banks.

What an ignorant PUTZ! Do you have the least bit of a clue how UNGREEN the
battery manufacturing process is?

Hello Nealbur,

First thanks for your support.
Until the manufacturers can create a fuel cell that is a viable
alternative to the Li-Ion battery, it is the best technology
available. And you can recycle them.


Do you know ANYTHING about the laws of
physics that say you CAN'T possibly break even?

Who's talking about breaking even? If you have ever been sailing you
would discover about 3 out of every 4 days has good enough wind to
sail.

Do you ever use your brain
for anything other than to keep your skull from collapsing in on itself?

That's the trouble with you 'greenies.' You're so ignorant about processes.
You seem to thrive on not seeing the big picture and this justifies your
errant thinking that you can have a zero emissions anything.

uhhh, I do not consider myself a "greenie" just a sailor who wants to
usher in the next great age of sail. It is going to happen if people
outlast oil, I'm just a bit ahead of the curve.--.

Hey, Joe,
here's a clue. You can't even breathe without emitting CO2 which you
greenies now call a pollutant. How hypocritical is that, Joe? If you were
really true to your green philosophy you would stop breathing and thus do
your part to reduce CO2 emissions.

Did you know the Karkarawa indians from Galveston in the 1400's were
known for chewing tar balls from the gulf?
It helped with dental issues.


So, considering your defective thought processes, of course it's easy for
you to forget all about the adverse affects of battery manufacture,
transport and disposal or recycling because none of this fits your
pie-in-the-sky imbecility and/or your ruse of a business plan.

Did you scream at Orville and Wilbur too?


And, do you know what's even sadder than how you operate? It's the Rubes who
are willing to support your lies because it makes them "feel" good - never
mind it does no good whatsoever for the environment.

Verses letting things stay the way they are. Come on Nealbur, a zero
emission boat having to deal with safe recycling of batteries in a
controlled enviroment seems cleaner than the current state of
shipping.

The Guardian has reported on new research showing that in one year, a
single large container ship can emit cancer and asthma-causing
pollutants equivalent to that of 50 million cars. The low grade bunker
fuel used by the worlds 90,000 cargo ships contains up to 2,000 times
the amount of sulfur compared to diesel fuel used in automobiles. The
recent boom in the global trade of manufactured goods has also
resulted in a new breed of super sized container ship which consume
fuel not by the gallons, but by tons per hour, and shipping now
accounts for 90% of global trade by volume.



Wilbur Hubbard

Joe

On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 08:28:04 -0800 (PST), Joe
wrote:

Do you plan to use the captured energy to supply house loads or to use
it as recharge/propulsion when the wind dies?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Both would be the goal.....zero emissions. They have some very good
re-generative systems and nickel-metal hydride and lithium-ion
batteries. The boat would have plenty of room for some huge battery
banks.

You could probably supply house loads with just solar panels and/or
wind generators. However I'm a bit skeptical about standby
propulsion regardless of battery banks size. By the time you drag
props that are big enough to capture significant power, you'd be
adding enough drag to considerably slow the boat. On the other hand
if you are just looking for talking points in a marketing plan, what
the heck.

On Nov 17, 12:53*pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 08:28:04 -0800 (PST), Joe

wrote:
Do you plan to use the captured energy to supply house loads or to use
it as recharge/propulsion when the wind dies?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Both would be the goal.....zero emissions. They have some very good
re-generative systems and nickel-metal hydride and lithium-ion
batteries. The boat would have plenty of room for some huge battery
banks.

You could probably supply house loads with just solar panels and/or
wind generators. * However I'm a bit skeptical about standby
propulsion regardless of battery banks size. * By the time you drag
props that are big enough to capture significant power, you'd be
adding enough drag to considerably slow the boat.

From personal experience I know any drag from the prop can easily be
made up from the sails. A controllable variable pitch prop will play
an important part in tuning in the best input with the least drag.

*On the other hand
if you are just looking for talking points in a marketing plan, what
the heck.

Marketing is important for any company, but developing a heavy cargo
transport system that uses only the wind as a source of power could
change the world for the better IMO. It worked for thousands of years
before oil was discovered.and should work for thousands of years after
cheap oil.

Joe

"Joe" wrote in message
...
deleted some

Marketing is important for any company, but developing a heavy cargo
transport system that uses only the wind as a source of power could
change the world for the better IMO. It worked for thousands of years
before oil was discovered.and should work for thousands of years after
cheap oil.





Sorry, Joe, that's just more pie-in-the-sky. One of the main reasons for
motorized freight transport is reliable delivery times that are necessary
for just-in-time inventory:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_(business)


Companies these days aren't run like companies were run in the age of sail.
Companies nowadays rely heavily on just in-time-inventory and on
just-in-time delivery practices. Read the above link and get educated.


Wilbur Hubbard

In article , Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 08:28:04 -0800 (PST), Joe
wrote:

Do you plan to use the captured energy to supply house loads or to use
it as recharge/propulsion when the wind dies?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Both would be the goal.....zero emissions. They have some very good
re-generative systems and nickel-metal hydride and lithium-ion
batteries. The boat would have plenty of room for some huge battery
banks.

You could probably supply house loads with just solar panels and/or
wind generators. However I'm a bit skeptical about standby
propulsion regardless of battery banks size. By the time you drag
props that are big enough to capture significant power, you'd be
adding enough drag to considerably slow the boat. On the other hand
if you are just looking for talking points in a marketing plan, what
the heck.

quote
The GREEN MOTION system eliminates fossil fuel used by sailing
yachts in any way. Electrical energy is generated with the system and is
stored in batteries (lithium Iron Phosphate are optional). It will
generate sufficient energy to be used for propulsion, hot water, cooking
and all electrical equipment and navigation on board. When batteries are
fully charged or high speed is required (race) the lifted Motogens
eliminate the drag from the propulsion system and this increases the
speed of the yacht (between 5 - 15%).

Retractable Motogen
The electric retractable Motogen is new, light
weight, extremely efficient and better than any propulsion system ever
designed for yachts. Usable in all sailing yachts from 30 to 90 ft (9-30
m): monohull, catamaran or trimaran). Installation can be made inside
the hull in a monohull or on a retractable arm for multihull. 5 years of
extensive testing has been done with a ‘proof of concept’ sailing in
excess of 10.000 Nm.
/quote


URL:http://www.green-motion.com/

OK, it's a cat, and not up to Joe's cargo work, but some of the
technology must transfer. I don't fancy the cost of those li-ion
batteries though... but they do handle huge charging loads, charge
quickly, and deliver their full capacity, not just a small percentage of
it.

The idea of a boat that needs no fuel of any kind, other than that
required to sustain the crew, does appeal. No diesel for *anything*. I'm
sure that there are some cruisers out there who would find the cost of
one of these cats a whole lot cheaper when they factor in their diesel
usage over a few years.

Justin.

--
Justin C, by the sea.

On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 23:34:40 +0000, Justin C
wrote:

In article , Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 08:28:04 -0800 (PST), Joe
wrote:

Do you plan to use the captured energy to supply house loads or to use
it as recharge/propulsion when the wind dies?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Both would be the goal.....zero emissions. They have some very good
re-generative systems and nickel-metal hydride and lithium-ion
batteries. The boat would have plenty of room for some huge battery
banks.

You could probably supply house loads with just solar panels and/or
wind generators. However I'm a bit skeptical about standby
propulsion regardless of battery banks size. By the time you drag
props that are big enough to capture significant power, you'd be
adding enough drag to considerably slow the boat. On the other hand
if you are just looking for talking points in a marketing plan, what
the heck.

quote
The GREEN MOTION system eliminates fossil fuel used by sailing
yachts in any way. Electrical energy is generated with the system and is
stored in batteries (lithium Iron Phosphate are optional). It will
generate sufficient energy to be used for propulsion, hot water, cooking
and all electrical equipment and navigation on board. When batteries are
fully charged or high speed is required (race) the lifted Motogens
eliminate the drag from the propulsion system and this increases the
speed of the yacht (between 5 - 15%).

Retractable Motogen
The electric retractable Motogen is new, light
weight, extremely efficient and better than any propulsion system ever
designed for yachts. Usable in all sailing yachts from 30 to 90 ft (9-30
m): monohull, catamaran or trimaran). Installation can be made inside
the hull in a monohull or on a retractable arm for multihull. 5 years of
extensive testing has been done with a ‘proof of concept’ sailing in
excess of 10.000 Nm.
/quote


URL:http://www.green-motion.com/

OK, it's a cat, and not up to Joe's cargo work, but some of the
technology must transfer. I don't fancy the cost of those li-ion
batteries though... but they do handle huge charging loads, charge
quickly, and deliver their full capacity, not just a small percentage of
it.

The idea of a boat that needs no fuel of any kind, other than that
required to sustain the crew, does appeal. No diesel for *anything*. I'm
sure that there are some cruisers out there who would find the cost of
one of these cats a whole lot cheaper when they factor in their diesel
usage over a few years.

Justin.

I suspect that the estimates of drag versus speed for the generator
propeller is highly optimistic. The best estimates I can find are that
the drag from a 3 bladed prop reduces speed by about 15%, not the 5 -
15% mentioned.

My own experience changing from a three bladed feathering prop to a
three bladed fixed pitch prop was that the speed reduction was
certainly very noticable.

Fromr one source http://www.ipoa.org.uk/?p=180 (unknown provenance):

quote:
The drag of a propeller is not easy to quantify but some
generalisations are in order such as,

The drag effect increases with speed – actually it increases with
the square of the speed, so faster hulls are penalised much more than
slower ones.
The average sailing speed is reduced by about 15% by the drag of a 3
bladed propeller of a size suited to propel a particular hull. When
there is a strong wind there is often sufficient power from the sails
to overcome the drag of the propeller and hull speed is achieved. As
the wind drops, the drag of the propeller becomes more significant and
in light winds it can seriously reduce sailing speed.
unquote:

If you want to spend a couple of bucks here is what appears to be a
peer reviewed indipendent study on the effects of props on drag
fromOcean Engineering, Volume 35, Issue 1, January 2008, Pages 28-40

/2008&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search &_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_vers ion=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=a7ab84dce94c502 4bf9bc438d2397827&searchtype=a

The abstract says:

All but the smallest classes of modern keelboats are fitted with
inboard engines and consequently, when making way under sail, the
craft experience parasitic drag due to trailing propellers and
associated appendages. The variety of screw configurations used on
sailing boats includes fixed-blade, feathering, and folding set-ups,
with blades numbering two or three. Although the magnitude of the
resultant drag is thought to have a significant influence on sailing
performance, the published literature having regard to this problem is
sparse. Here, the aim was to evaluate the drag effect of fixed-blade
propellers of types commonly used on sailing craft. The results of
towing tank tests on full-scale propellers are presented for the
locked shaft condition; these are presented along with reconfigured
data from the few previously published sources. For the case in which
the propeller is allowed to rotate, tests were conducted on a typical
screw with a range of braking torques being applied. It was
hypothesised that the performance coefficients of the Wageningen
B-Screw Series could be used to characterise adequately the types of
screw of interest and that these could be extrapolated to enable
prediction of the drag of a freewheeling propeller; an assessment of
this formed part of the investigation.

Cheers,

Bruce