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Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
Greetings fellow sailors.
As most of you know my goal is to build a zero emissions cargo sailing vessel. The zero emissions part will require some fancy engineering and advanced electronic controls to capture the kinetic energy via a CVP prop. I can use some serious engineering support and Toyota thinks it a good enough ideal to have people vote on it. If you want to see it happen, please lend your support at https://www.yourideasforgood.com/gallery Thanks Best Regards, Joe B. |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 07:20:50 -0800 (PST), Joe
wrote: Greetings fellow sailors. As most of you know my goal is to build a zero emissions cargo sailing vessel. The zero emissions part will require some fancy engineering and advanced electronic controls to capture the kinetic energy via a CVP prop. I can use some serious engineering support and Toyota thinks it a good enough ideal to have people vote on it. If you want to see it happen, please lend your support at https://www.yourideasforgood.com/gallery Thanks Best Regards, Joe B. Do you plan to use the captured energy to supply house loads or to use it as recharge/propulsion when the wind dies? |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
On Nov 17, 10:16*am, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 07:20:50 -0800 (PST), Joe wrote: Greetings fellow sailors. As most of you know my goal is to build a zero emissions cargo sailing vessel. The zero emissions part will require some fancy engineering and advanced electronic controls to capture the kinetic energy via a CVP prop. I can use some serious engineering support and Toyota thinks it a good enough ideal to have people vote on it. If you want to see it happen, please lend your support at https://www.yourideasforgood.com/gallery Thanks Best Regards, Joe B. Do you plan to use the captured energy to supply house loads or to use it as recharge/propulsion when the wind dies?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Both would be the goal.....zero emissions. They have some very good re-generative systems and nickel-metal hydride and lithium-ion batteries. The boat would have plenty of room for some huge battery banks. Joe |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
"Joe" wrote in message
... deleted some Both would be the goal.....zero emissions. They have some very good re-generative systems and nickel-metal hydride and lithium-ion batteries. The boat would have plenty of room for some huge battery banks. What an ignorant PUTZ! Do you have the least bit of a clue how UNGREEN the battery manufacturing process is? Do you know ANYTHING about the laws of physics that say you CAN'T possibly break even? Do you ever use your brain for anything other than to keep your skull from collapsing in on itself? That's the trouble with you 'greenies.' You're so ignorant about processes. You seem to thrive on not seeing the big picture and this justifies your errant thinking that you can have a zero emissions anything. Hey, Joe, here's a clue. You can't even breathe without emitting CO2 which you greenies now call a pollutant. How hypocritical is that, Joe? If you were really true to your green philosophy you would stop breathing and thus do your part to reduce CO2 emissions. So, considering your defective thought processes, of course it's easy for you to forget all about the adverse affects of battery manufacture, transport and disposal or recycling because none of this fits your pie-in-the-sky imbecility and/or your ruse of a business plan. And, do you know what's even sadder than how you operate? It's the Rubes who are willing to support your lies because it makes them "feel" good - never mind it does no good whatsoever for the environment. Wilbur Hubbard |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 08:28:04 -0800 (PST), Joe
wrote: Do you plan to use the captured energy to supply house loads or to use it as recharge/propulsion when the wind dies?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Both would be the goal.....zero emissions. They have some very good re-generative systems and nickel-metal hydride and lithium-ion batteries. The boat would have plenty of room for some huge battery banks. You could probably supply house loads with just solar panels and/or wind generators. However I'm a bit skeptical about standby propulsion regardless of battery banks size. By the time you drag props that are big enough to capture significant power, you'd be adding enough drag to considerably slow the boat. On the other hand if you are just looking for talking points in a marketing plan, what the heck. |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
On Nov 17, 12:12*pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: "Joe" wrote in message ... deleted some Both would be the goal.....zero emissions. They have some very good re-generative systems and nickel-metal hydride and lithium-ion batteries. The boat would have plenty of room for some huge battery banks. What an ignorant PUTZ! Do you have the least bit of a clue how UNGREEN the battery manufacturing process is? Hello Nealbur, First thanks for your support. Until the manufacturers can create a fuel cell that is a viable alternative to the Li-Ion battery, it is the best technology available. And you can recycle them. Do you know ANYTHING about the laws of physics that say you CAN'T possibly break even? Who's talking about breaking even? If you have ever been sailing you would discover about 3 out of every 4 days has good enough wind to sail. Do you ever use your brain for anything other than to keep your skull from collapsing in on itself? That's the trouble with you 'greenies.' You're so ignorant about processes. You seem to thrive on not seeing the big picture and this justifies your errant thinking that you can have a zero emissions anything. uhhh, I do not consider myself a "greenie" just a sailor who wants to usher in the next great age of sail. It is going to happen if people outlast oil, I'm just a bit ahead of the curve.--. Hey, Joe, here's a clue. You can't even breathe without emitting CO2 which you greenies now call a pollutant. How hypocritical is that, Joe? If you were really true to your green philosophy you would stop breathing and thus do your part to reduce CO2 emissions. Did you know the Karkarawa indians from Galveston in the 1400's were known for chewing tar balls from the gulf? It helped with dental issues. So, considering your defective thought processes, of course it's easy for you to forget all about the adverse affects of battery manufacture, transport and disposal or recycling because none of this fits your pie-in-the-sky imbecility and/or your ruse of a business plan. Did you scream at Orville and Wilbur too? And, do you know what's even sadder than how you operate? It's the Rubes who are willing to support your lies because it makes them "feel" good - never mind it does no good whatsoever for the environment. Verses letting things stay the way they are. Come on Nealbur, a zero emission boat having to deal with safe recycling of batteries in a controlled enviroment seems cleaner than the current state of shipping. The Guardian has reported on new research showing that in one year, a single large container ship can emit cancer and asthma-causing pollutants equivalent to that of 50 million cars. The low grade bunker fuel used by the worlds 90,000 cargo ships contains up to 2,000 times the amount of sulfur compared to diesel fuel used in automobiles. The recent boom in the global trade of manufactured goods has also resulted in a new breed of super sized container ship which consume fuel not by the gallons, but by tons per hour, and shipping now accounts for 90% of global trade by volume. Wilbur Hubbard Joe |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
On Nov 17, 12:53*pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 08:28:04 -0800 (PST), Joe wrote: Do you plan to use the captured energy to supply house loads or to use it as recharge/propulsion when the wind dies?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Both would be the goal.....zero emissions. They have some very good re-generative systems and nickel-metal hydride and lithium-ion batteries. The boat would have plenty of room for some huge battery banks. You could probably supply house loads with just solar panels and/or wind generators. * However I'm a bit skeptical about standby propulsion regardless of battery banks size. * By the time you drag props that are big enough to capture significant power, you'd be adding enough drag to considerably slow the boat. From personal experience I know any drag from the prop can easily be made up from the sails. A controllable variable pitch prop will play an important part in tuning in the best input with the least drag. *On the other hand if you are just looking for talking points in a marketing plan, what the heck. Marketing is important for any company, but developing a heavy cargo transport system that uses only the wind as a source of power could change the world for the better IMO. It worked for thousands of years before oil was discovered.and should work for thousands of years after cheap oil. Joe |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
"Joe" wrote in message
... deleted some Marketing is important for any company, but developing a heavy cargo transport system that uses only the wind as a source of power could change the world for the better IMO. It worked for thousands of years before oil was discovered.and should work for thousands of years after cheap oil. Sorry, Joe, that's just more pie-in-the-sky. One of the main reasons for motorized freight transport is reliable delivery times that are necessary for just-in-time inventory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_(business) Companies these days aren't run like companies were run in the age of sail. Companies nowadays rely heavily on just in-time-inventory and on just-in-time delivery practices. Read the above link and get educated. Wilbur Hubbard |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
On Nov 17, 4:12*pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: "Joe" wrote in message ... deleted some *Marketing is important for any company, but developing a heavy cargo transport system that uses only the wind as a source of power could change the world for the better IMO. It worked for thousands of years before oil was discovered.and should work for thousands of years after cheap oil. Sorry, Joe, that's just more pie-in-the-sky. *One of the main reasons for motorized freight transport is reliable delivery times that are necessary for just-in-time inventory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_(business) Companies these days aren't run like companies were run in the age of sail. Companies nowadays rely heavily on just in-time-inventory and on just-in-time delivery practices. Read the above link and get educated. Wilbur Hubbard Wilbur, you ignorant slut. JIT came about in the 80's. Sail transport stopped in the teen's. Can you guess why man switched from sail to steam? Most commodies are staged in warehouses or tanks, JIT is not a factor. Had you ever sailed the open sea lately, you might want to address the issues of pollution caused by big ships. If you lived by any active harbor or port you would want to address the high levels of emissions the huge ship put out. Instead you puke out JIT. Pretty lame, but chicken bone reef standard. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldYkO... 75&playnext=1 35KW...thats alot of power, 3X's what a boat would need. There is a fellow in Europe getting 21% total boat power off a good shaft drive system. Go ahead..click the link, and push the support button Neal. Prove me wrong http://www.yourideasforgood.com/gallery?idea=523. Joe |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
In article , Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 08:28:04 -0800 (PST), Joe wrote: Do you plan to use the captured energy to supply house loads or to use it as recharge/propulsion when the wind dies?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Both would be the goal.....zero emissions. They have some very good re-generative systems and nickel-metal hydride and lithium-ion batteries. The boat would have plenty of room for some huge battery banks. You could probably supply house loads with just solar panels and/or wind generators. However I'm a bit skeptical about standby propulsion regardless of battery banks size. By the time you drag props that are big enough to capture significant power, you'd be adding enough drag to considerably slow the boat. On the other hand if you are just looking for talking points in a marketing plan, what the heck. quote The GREEN MOTION system eliminates fossil fuel used by sailing yachts in any way. Electrical energy is generated with the system and is stored in batteries (lithium Iron Phosphate are optional). It will generate sufficient energy to be used for propulsion, hot water, cooking and all electrical equipment and navigation on board. When batteries are fully charged or high speed is required (race) the lifted Motogens eliminate the drag from the propulsion system and this increases the speed of the yacht (between 5 - 15%). Retractable Motogen The electric retractable Motogen is new, light weight, extremely efficient and better than any propulsion system ever designed for yachts. Usable in all sailing yachts from 30 to 90 ft (9-30 m): monohull, catamaran or trimaran). Installation can be made inside the hull in a monohull or on a retractable arm for multihull. 5 years of extensive testing has been done with a ‘proof of concept’ sailing in excess of 10.000 Nm. /quote URL:http://www.green-motion.com/ OK, it's a cat, and not up to Joe's cargo work, but some of the technology must transfer. I don't fancy the cost of those li-ion batteries though... but they do handle huge charging loads, charge quickly, and deliver their full capacity, not just a small percentage of it. The idea of a boat that needs no fuel of any kind, other than that required to sustain the crew, does appeal. No diesel for *anything*. I'm sure that there are some cruisers out there who would find the cost of one of these cats a whole lot cheaper when they factor in their diesel usage over a few years. Justin. -- Justin C, by the sea. |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 23:34:40 +0000, Justin C
wrote: In article , Wayne.B wrote: On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 08:28:04 -0800 (PST), Joe wrote: Do you plan to use the captured energy to supply house loads or to use it as recharge/propulsion when the wind dies?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Both would be the goal.....zero emissions. They have some very good re-generative systems and nickel-metal hydride and lithium-ion batteries. The boat would have plenty of room for some huge battery banks. You could probably supply house loads with just solar panels and/or wind generators. However I'm a bit skeptical about standby propulsion regardless of battery banks size. By the time you drag props that are big enough to capture significant power, you'd be adding enough drag to considerably slow the boat. On the other hand if you are just looking for talking points in a marketing plan, what the heck. quote The GREEN MOTION system eliminates fossil fuel used by sailing yachts in any way. Electrical energy is generated with the system and is stored in batteries (lithium Iron Phosphate are optional). It will generate sufficient energy to be used for propulsion, hot water, cooking and all electrical equipment and navigation on board. When batteries are fully charged or high speed is required (race) the lifted Motogens eliminate the drag from the propulsion system and this increases the speed of the yacht (between 5 - 15%). Retractable Motogen The electric retractable Motogen is new, light weight, extremely efficient and better than any propulsion system ever designed for yachts. Usable in all sailing yachts from 30 to 90 ft (9-30 m): monohull, catamaran or trimaran). Installation can be made inside the hull in a monohull or on a retractable arm for multihull. 5 years of extensive testing has been done with a ‘proof of concept’ sailing in excess of 10.000 Nm. /quote URL:http://www.green-motion.com/ OK, it's a cat, and not up to Joe's cargo work, but some of the technology must transfer. I don't fancy the cost of those li-ion batteries though... but they do handle huge charging loads, charge quickly, and deliver their full capacity, not just a small percentage of it. The idea of a boat that needs no fuel of any kind, other than that required to sustain the crew, does appeal. No diesel for *anything*. I'm sure that there are some cruisers out there who would find the cost of one of these cats a whole lot cheaper when they factor in their diesel usage over a few years. Justin. I suspect that the estimates of drag versus speed for the generator propeller is highly optimistic. The best estimates I can find are that the drag from a 3 bladed prop reduces speed by about 15%, not the 5 - 15% mentioned. My own experience changing from a three bladed feathering prop to a three bladed fixed pitch prop was that the speed reduction was certainly very noticable. Fromr one source http://www.ipoa.org.uk/?p=180 (unknown provenance): quote: The drag of a propeller is not easy to quantify but some generalisations are in order such as, The drag effect increases with speed – actually it increases with the square of the speed, so faster hulls are penalised much more than slower ones. The average sailing speed is reduced by about 15% by the drag of a 3 bladed propeller of a size suited to propel a particular hull. When there is a strong wind there is often sufficient power from the sails to overcome the drag of the propeller and hull speed is achieved. As the wind drops, the drag of the propeller becomes more significant and in light winds it can seriously reduce sailing speed. unquote: If you want to spend a couple of bucks here is what appears to be a peer reviewed indipendent study on the effects of props on drag fromOcean Engineering, Volume 35, Issue 1, January 2008, Pages 28-40 /2008&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search &_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_vers ion=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=a7ab84dce94c502 4bf9bc438d2397827&searchtype=a The abstract says: All but the smallest classes of modern keelboats are fitted with inboard engines and consequently, when making way under sail, the craft experience parasitic drag due to trailing propellers and associated appendages. The variety of screw configurations used on sailing boats includes fixed-blade, feathering, and folding set-ups, with blades numbering two or three. Although the magnitude of the resultant drag is thought to have a significant influence on sailing performance, the published literature having regard to this problem is sparse. Here, the aim was to evaluate the drag effect of fixed-blade propellers of types commonly used on sailing craft. The results of towing tank tests on full-scale propellers are presented for the locked shaft condition; these are presented along with reconfigured data from the few previously published sources. For the case in which the propeller is allowed to rotate, tests were conducted on a typical screw with a range of braking torques being applied. It was hypothesised that the performance coefficients of the Wageningen B-Screw Series could be used to characterise adequately the types of screw of interest and that these could be extrapolated to enable prediction of the drag of a freewheeling propeller; an assessment of this formed part of the investigation. Cheers, Bruce |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
In article , Bruce wrote:
On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 23:34:40 +0000, Justin C wrote: quote The GREEN MOTION system eliminates fossil fuel used by sailing yachts in any way. Electrical energy is generated with the system and is stored in batteries (lithium Iron Phosphate are optional). It will generate sufficient energy to be used for propulsion, hot water, cooking and all electrical equipment and navigation on board. When batteries are fully charged or high speed is required (race) the lifted Motogens eliminate the drag from the propulsion system and this increases the speed of the yacht (between 5 - 15%). Retractable Motogen The electric retractable Motogen is new, light weight, extremely efficient and better than any propulsion system ever designed for yachts. Usable in all sailing yachts from 30 to 90 ft (9-30 m): monohull, catamaran or trimaran). Installation can be made inside the hull in a monohull or on a retractable arm for multihull. 5 years of extensive testing has been done with a ‘proof of concept’ sailing in excess of 10.000 Nm. /quote URL:http://www.green-motion.com/ I suspect that the estimates of drag versus speed for the generator propeller is highly optimistic. The best estimates I can find are that the drag from a 3 bladed prop reduces speed by about 15%, not the 5 - 15% mentioned. They put a small amount of current through the motors as the same time as using them to generate, this partially compensates for the drag - according to last month's Yachting Monthly feature. Justin. -- Justin C, by the sea. |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 19:20:11 +0000, Justin C
wrote: In article , Bruce wrote: On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 23:34:40 +0000, Justin C wrote: quote The GREEN MOTION system eliminates fossil fuel used by sailing yachts in any way. Electrical energy is generated with the system and is stored in batteries (lithium Iron Phosphate are optional). It will generate sufficient energy to be used for propulsion, hot water, cooking and all electrical equipment and navigation on board. When batteries are fully charged or high speed is required (race) the lifted Motogens eliminate the drag from the propulsion system and this increases the speed of the yacht (between 5 - 15%). Retractable Motogen The electric retractable Motogen is new, light weight, extremely efficient and better than any propulsion system ever designed for yachts. Usable in all sailing yachts from 30 to 90 ft (9-30 m): monohull, catamaran or trimaran). Installation can be made inside the hull in a monohull or on a retractable arm for multihull. 5 years of extensive testing has been done with a ‘proof of concept’ sailing in excess of 10.000 Nm. /quote URL:http://www.green-motion.com/ I suspect that the estimates of drag versus speed for the generator propeller is highly optimistic. The best estimates I can find are that the drag from a 3 bladed prop reduces speed by about 15%, not the 5 - 15% mentioned. They put a small amount of current through the motors as the same time as using them to generate, this partially compensates for the drag - according to last month's Yachting Monthly feature. Justin. Perhaps I'm a cynic but it sounds like pie in the sky. Of course if they put a small amount of current through the device, i.e., power it, it will result in less drag. But of course it also results in less net current generated. Frankly it sounds very much like a perpetual motion machine. Cheers, Bruce |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
In article , Bruce wrote:
On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 19:20:11 +0000, Justin C They put a small amount of current through the motors as the same time as using them to generate, this partially compensates for the drag - according to last month's Yachting Monthly feature. Perhaps I'm a cynic but it sounds like pie in the sky. I'm prepared to suspend belief, I'm only quoting from the article. However, if they have achieved what the article says, then that's something quite special. Of course if they put a small amount of current through the device, i.e., power it, it will result in less drag. But of course it also results in less net current generated. Frankly it sounds very much like a perpetual motion machine. Not quite perpetual motion, they're only claiming that they can reduce the drag of the props to 5% by supplying some power. Be sceptical, if it's for real we'll hear about it from other sources over time, even some that we trust. Justin. -- Justin C, by the sea. |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 07:19:02 +0700, Bruce
wrote: Frankly it sounds very much like a perpetual motion machine. It's definitely not perpetual motion but it does depend on a number of assumptions that may not hold true in the real world. Extracting energy from spinning props is definitely possible under the right conditions but my calculations show that the maximum power available is relatively low, quite possibly enough to supply house loads, but very unlikely enough to recharge a large battery bank. |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 21:18:30 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote: On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 07:19:02 +0700, Bruce wrote: Frankly it sounds very much like a perpetual motion machine. It's definitely not perpetual motion but it does depend on a number of assumptions that may not hold true in the real world. Extracting energy from spinning props is definitely possible under the right conditions but my calculations show that the maximum power available is relatively low, quite possibly enough to supply house loads, but very unlikely enough to recharge a large battery bank. I knew one person who had a propeller shaft driven alternator on a 40 ft. sloop and metered it's output. He said that it produced electricity but not much and removed it to install a propshaft driven bilge pump - bloody great thing it was. I used to offer to chop a hole in the hole so he could test it but he never seemed to be interested. A second had one of those towed generators and said much the same - it did produce electricity but he still needed to run the engine frequently when sailing unless he was very, very careful with the electricity. He had a vane steerer so the only "can't turn it off" he had running would have been his GPS and maybe his nav lights, but I doubt that he would use them off shore. And these were blokes who did sail off shore - used to quote speed in miles per day :-) Along shore I think it would be worse. Hopefully anyone who tries this system keeps a big outboard on board :-( Cheers, Brice |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
On Nov 19, 10:13*pm, Bruce wrote:
On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 23:34:40 +0000, Justin C wrote: In article , Wayne.B wrote: On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 08:28:04 -0800 (PST), Joe wrote: Do you plan to use the captured energy to supply house loads or to use it as recharge/propulsion when the wind dies?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Both would be the goal.....zero emissions. They have some very good re-generative systems and nickel-metal hydride and lithium-ion batteries. The boat would have plenty of room for some huge battery banks. You could probably supply house loads with just solar panels and/or wind generators. * However I'm a bit skeptical about standby propulsion regardless of battery banks size. * By the time you drag props that are big enough to capture significant power, you'd be adding enough drag to considerably slow the boat. *On the other hand if you are just looking for talking points in a marketing plan, what the heck. quote * *The GREEN MOTION system eliminates fossil fuel used by sailing yachts in any way. Electrical energy is generated with the system and is stored in batteries (lithium Iron Phosphate are optional). It will generate sufficient energy to be used for propulsion, hot water, cooking and all electrical equipment and navigation on board. When batteries are fully charged or high speed is required (race) the lifted Motogens eliminate the drag from the propulsion system and this increases the speed of the yacht (between 5 - 15%). * *Retractable Motogen * *The electric retractable Motogen is new, light weight, extremely efficient and better than any propulsion system ever designed for yachts. Usable in all sailing yachts from 30 to 90 ft (9-30 m): monohull, catamaran or trimaran). Installation can be made inside the hull in a monohull or on a retractable arm for multihull. 5 years of extensive testing has been done with a ‘proof of concept’ sailing in excess of 10.000 Nm. /quote URL:http://www.green-motion.com/ OK, it's a cat, and not up to Joe's cargo work, but some of the technology must transfer. I don't fancy the cost of those li-ion batteries though... but they do handle huge charging loads, charge quickly, and deliver their full capacity, not just a small percentage of it. The idea of a boat that needs no fuel of any kind, other than that required to sustain the crew, does appeal. No diesel for *anything*. I'm sure that there are some cruisers out there who would find the cost of one of these cats a whole lot cheaper when they factor in their diesel usage over a few years. * Justin. I suspect that the estimates of *drag versus speed for the generator propeller is highly optimistic. The best estimates I can find are that the drag from a 3 bladed prop reduces speed by about 15%, not the 5 - 15% mentioned. My own experience changing from a three bladed feathering prop to a three bladed fixed pitch prop was that the speed reduction was certainly very noticable. Fromr one sourcehttp://www.ipoa.org.uk/?p=180(unknown provenance): quote: The drag of a propeller is not easy to quantify but some generalisations are in order such as, The drag effect increases with speed – actually it increases with the square of the speed, so faster hulls are penalised much more than slower ones. This is true. You chain a single shaft on a quad screw crewboat you drop from 25kts to 11kts. The average sailing speed is reduced by about 15% by the drag of a 3 bladed propeller of a size suited to propel a particular hull. When there is a strong wind there is often sufficient power from the sails to overcome the drag of the propeller and hull speed is achieved. I think thats right on for a sailing vessel, around 15% for any displacement hull, easy to overcome with sail. As the wind drops, the drag of the propeller becomes more significant and in light winds it can seriously reduce sailing speed. unquote: If you want to spend a couple of bucks here is what appears to be a peer reviewed *indipendent study on the effects of props on drag fromOcean Engineering, Volume 35, Issue 1, January 2008, Pages 28-40 /2008&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search &_sort=d&_docanchor=&vie*w=c&_acct=C000050221&_ver sion=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=a7ab84dce94c50 *24bf9bc438d2397827&searchtype=a The abstract says: All but the smallest classes of modern keelboats are fitted with inboard engines and consequently, when making way under sail, the craft experience parasitic drag due to trailing propellers and associated appendages. The variety of screw configurations used on sailing boats includes fixed-blade, feathering, and folding set-ups, with blades numbering two or three. Although the magnitude of the resultant drag is thought to have a significant influence on sailing performance, the published literature having regard to this problem is sparse. Here, the aim was to evaluate the drag effect of fixed-blade propellers of types commonly used on sailing craft. The results of towing tank tests on full-scale propellers are presented for the locked shaft condition; these are presented along with reconfigured data from the few previously published sources. For the case in which the propeller is allowed to rotate, tests were conducted on a typical screw with a range of braking torques being applied. It was hypothesised that the performance coefficients of the Wageningen B-Screw Series could be used to characterise adequately the types of screw of interest and that these could be extrapolated to enable prediction of the drag of a freewheeling propeller; an assessment of this formed part of the investigation. Cheers, Bruce- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Do they mention the difference from a chained shaft to a free wheeling prop. I've heard a chained non turing prop provides less drag. Joe |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
On Nov 20, 1:20*pm, Justin C wrote:
In article , Bruce wrote: On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 23:34:40 +0000, Justin C wrote: quote * * * *The GREEN MOTION system eliminates fossil fuel used by sailing yachts in any way. Electrical energy is generated with the system and is stored in batteries (lithium Iron Phosphate are optional). It will generate sufficient energy to be used for propulsion, hot water, cooking and all electrical equipment and navigation on board. When batteries are fully charged or high speed is required (race) the lifted Motogens eliminate the drag from the propulsion system and this increases the speed of the yacht (between 5 - 15%). * * * *Retractable Motogen * * * *The electric retractable Motogen is new, light weight, extremely efficient and better than any propulsion system ever designed for yachts. Usable in all sailing yachts from 30 to 90 ft (9-30 m): monohull, catamaran or trimaran). Installation can be made inside the hull in a monohull or on a retractable arm for multihull. 5 years of extensive testing has been done with a ‘proof of concept’ sailing in excess of 10.000 Nm. /quote URL:http://www.green-motion.com/ I suspect that the estimates of *drag versus speed for the generator propeller is highly optimistic. The best estimates I can find are that the drag from a 3 bladed prop reduces speed by about 15%, not the 5 - 15% mentioned. They put a small amount of current through the motors as the same time as using them to generate, this partially compensates for the drag - according to last month's Yachting Monthly feature. * *Justin. -- Justin C, by the sea.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I guess they could not afford a CVP prop to reduce drag when needed. Joe |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
On Nov 20, 6:19*pm, Bruce wrote:
On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 19:20:11 +0000, Justin C wrote: In article , Bruce wrote: On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 23:34:40 +0000, Justin C wrote: quote * *The GREEN MOTION system eliminates fossil fuel used by sailing yachts in any way. Electrical energy is generated with the system and is stored in batteries (lithium Iron Phosphate are optional). It will generate sufficient energy to be used for propulsion, hot water, cooking and all electrical equipment and navigation on board. When batteries are fully charged or high speed is required (race) the lifted Motogens eliminate the drag from the propulsion system and this increases the speed of the yacht (between 5 - 15%). * *Retractable Motogen * *The electric retractable Motogen is new, light weight, extremely efficient and better than any propulsion system ever designed for yachts. Usable in all sailing yachts from 30 to 90 ft (9-30 m): monohull, catamaran or trimaran). Installation can be made inside the hull in a monohull or on a retractable arm for multihull. 5 years of extensive testing has been done with a ‘proof of concept’ sailing in excess of 10.000 Nm. /quote URL:http://www.green-motion.com/ I suspect that the estimates of *drag versus speed for the generator propeller is highly optimistic. The best estimates I can find are that the drag from a 3 bladed prop reduces speed by about 15%, not the 5 - 15% mentioned. They put a small amount of current through the motors as the same time as using them to generate, this partially compensates for the drag - according to last month's Yachting Monthly feature. * Justin. Perhaps I'm a cynic but it sounds like pie in the sky. Of course if they put a small amount of current through the device, i.e., power it, it will result in less drag. But of course it also results in less net current generated. Frankly it sounds very much like a perpetual motion machine. Cheers, Bruce- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - If they did not have sail energy input I would agree. But a full set of sails in a nice breeze can generate massive amount of power input. Joe |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 21:18:30 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote: It's definitely not perpetual motion but it does depend on a number of assumptions that may not hold true in the real world. Extracting energy from spinning props is definitely possible under the right conditions but my calculations show that the maximum power available is relatively low, quite possibly enough to supply house loads, but very unlikely enough to recharge a large battery bank. Wayne, you hit the nail on the head as they say. As most of you know I spent about 6 years living on solar and wind power, and built electric cars, trikes and motorcycles. So I'm all for renewable energy and have put my money where my mouth is. But, and a very big BUT, there are very severe limitations as to what it can do. You just can't get vast amounts of power from wind, sun and water unless you take up vast amounts of space and spend vast amounts of money. One thing that comes to mind. Recently the town here dedicated a Windspire wind generator at the library. The wind gen and everything else was donated by various companies in town. It's a 30 foot high thing that maxes at 1,200 Watts. Of course, like most that figure is with a 65 MPH wind. More like 100 Watts at the normal 15 MPH winds here. Anyway, they stated that it should save the libray about $200 a year in electric costs. Their normal electric bill is about $5,000 a year! I just had a thought that might illustrate the problem, at least as far as propulsion goes. Instead of looking at Amps or Watts directly, lets look at Horsepower. 1 HP is 746 Watts. Now, to charge a battery there are losses, and to get that 1 HP there are also motor losses. So to make it easy let's say 1 HP out is 1,000 Watts, or 1 KW, in. That's 74.6% efficientcy. Let's further say 10 HP is what we need to power the boat at a decent speed. In the real world, probably 5 KTs for a 30 footer. Our 30 footer with 10 HP motor has 16 golf cart batteries in series for 96 Volts and 21.6 KWH. This will give us 2 hours and 10 minutes of run time to a flat battery bank. Most of what I've read about using an alternator on the prop state the output is about 10 Amps, so at 13.6 Volts this is 136 Watt Hours, or ..136 KWH. Traveling 10 hours a day gives us 1.36 KWH per day. So a 10 hour sail would let us motor for 8 minutes and 10 seconds. One could hang a big prop down there, optimised to drive an alternator and maybe get 50 Amps with a large reduction in speed. That would give us about 40 minutes run time. How about solar? If we cover that entire 30 footer in solar panels, we should be able to get about 3,000 watts. At a cost of $15,000 plus controller at the current $5 per watt. This will give us between 9 KWH and 18 KWH per day, depending on latitude and season. Sooo... We can run under power from 54 mintes to 1 hour and 48 minutes per sunny day. We all know air conditioners are power hogs. A 15,000 BTU marine AC takes about 1.5 HP. So imagine generating enough power to run 6-1/2 of your AC's. That what you need to power a 30 footer. Rick |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 05:33:59 -0800 (PST), Joe
wrote: Do they mention the difference from a chained shaft to a free wheeling prop. I've heard a chained non turing prop provides less drag. Drag is only part of the issue. How much recharge power do you think can be extracted by the spinning prop? |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
In article , Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 05:33:59 -0800 (PST), Joe wrote: Do they mention the difference from a chained shaft to a free wheeling prop. I've heard a chained non turing prop provides less drag. Drag is only part of the issue. How much recharge power do you think can be extracted by the spinning prop? According to the author of the article (Yachting Monthly's technical editor, I'm sure he's not overly gullible) and the photo he published, at 8 knots they were generating 4kW. This is cutting edge stuff, most anecdotal rebuttals here have been based on old ideas and technology. Here's a bit more about it: http://www.matternetwork.com/2010/11...f-cruising.cfm Justin. -- Justin C, by the sea. |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
In article , Joe wrote:
On Nov 20, 1:20?pm, Justin C wrote: In article , Bruce wrote: On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 23:34:40 +0000, Justin C wrote: quote ? ? ? ?The GREEN MOTION system eliminates fossil fuel used by sailing yachts in any way. Electrical energy is generated with the system and is stored in batteries (lithium Iron Phosphate are optional). It will generate sufficient energy to be used for propulsion, hot water, cooking and all electrical equipment and navigation on board. When batteries are fully charged or high speed is required (race) the lifted Motogens eliminate the drag from the propulsion system and this increases the speed of the yacht (between 5 - 15%). ? ? ? ?Retractable Motogen ? ? ? ?The electric retractable Motogen is new, light weight, extremely efficient and better than any propulsion system ever designed for yachts. Usable in all sailing yachts from 30 to 90 ft (9-30 m): monohull, catamaran or trimaran). Installation can be made inside the hull in a monohull or on a retractable arm for multihull. 5 years of extensive testing has been done with a ?proof of concept? sailing in excess of 10.000 Nm. /quote URL:http://www.green-motion.com/ I suspect that the estimates of ?drag versus speed for the generator propeller is highly optimistic. The best estimates I can find are that the drag from a 3 bladed prop reduces speed by about 15%, not the 5 - 15% mentioned. They put a small amount of current through the motors as the same time as using them to generate, this partially compensates for the drag - according to last month's Yachting Monthly feature. ? ?Justin. -- Justin C, by the sea.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I guess they could not afford a CVP prop to reduce drag when needed. When not needed the motogens lift clear of the water entirely. Justin. -- Justin C, by the sea. |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 18:47:49 +0000, Justin C
wrote: This is cutting edge stuff, most anecdotal rebuttals here have been based on old ideas and technology. Here's a bit more about it: http://www.matternetwork.com/2010/11...f-cruising.cfm Several of us have done analyses based on the laws of physics, which have yet to be repealed by new technology. Water mills are well understood, have been around for a long time, and do not require the application of quantum mechanics. A 20 inch prop being dragged through water at 6 knots can generate somewhere between 1 and 4 KW of electricity depending on how optimistic your assumptions are. Even the high end number is not enough to recharge a *large* battery bank in a reasonable length of time. |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 18:49:10 +0000, Justin C
wrote: In article , Joe wrote: On Nov 20, 1:20?pm, Justin C wrote: In article , Bruce wrote: On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 23:34:40 +0000, Justin C wrote: quote ? ? ? ?The GREEN MOTION system eliminates fossil fuel used by sailing yachts in any way. Electrical energy is generated with the system and is stored in batteries (lithium Iron Phosphate are optional). It will generate sufficient energy to be used for propulsion, hot water, cooking and all electrical equipment and navigation on board. When batteries are fully charged or high speed is required (race) the lifted Motogens eliminate the drag from the propulsion system and this increases the speed of the yacht (between 5 - 15%). ? ? ? ?Retractable Motogen ? ? ? ?The electric retractable Motogen is new, light weight, extremely efficient and better than any propulsion system ever designed for yachts. Usable in all sailing yachts from 30 to 90 ft (9-30 m): monohull, catamaran or trimaran). Installation can be made inside the hull in a monohull or on a retractable arm for multihull. 5 years of extensive testing has been done with a ?proof of concept? sailing in excess of 10.000 Nm. /quote URL:http://www.green-motion.com/ I suspect that the estimates of ?drag versus speed for the generator propeller is highly optimistic. The best estimates I can find are that the drag from a 3 bladed prop reduces speed by about 15%, not the 5 - 15% mentioned. They put a small amount of current through the motors as the same time as using them to generate, this partially compensates for the drag - according to last month's Yachting Monthly feature. ? ?Justin. -- Justin C, by the sea.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I guess they could not afford a CVP prop to reduce drag when needed. When not needed the motogens lift clear of the water entirely. Justin. Then, of course, they aren't making electricity :-) Cheers, Brice |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 16:52:21 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote: On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 18:47:49 +0000, Justin C wrote: This is cutting edge stuff, most anecdotal rebuttals here have been based on old ideas and technology. Here's a bit more about it: http://www.matternetwork.com/2010/11...f-cruising.cfm Several of us have done analyses based on the laws of physics, which have yet to be repealed by new technology. Water mills are well understood, have been around for a long time, and do not require the application of quantum mechanics. A 20 inch prop being dragged through water at 6 knots can generate somewhere between 1 and 4 KW of electricity depending on how optimistic your assumptions are. Even the high end number is not enough to recharge a *large* battery bank in a reasonable length of time. The whole thing is basically ludicrous. Boats have been essentially "green" for centuries, in fact I once owned a Friendship Sloop that was. No motor, no electric lights, no navigation gear other then a compass. I sailed up and down on the coast of Maine with no real problems. Has a little one burner kerosene stove for cooking and woolen clothes for heating. The Bugis sailed their schooners around the Java Sea until relatively recently with no motor, air con, ice makers or fridges, and smaller boats still do in that area. I agree that these boats weren't completely green as they used kerosene for nav lights and cooking but likely less energy then is taken to make the batteries and motors that power that Million Dollar Cat that Justen mentioned. The real question is not how to build a yacht that uses no energy but how to find a yachtsmen that doesn't demand all those luxuries. The Pardies have sailed for years with no electricity except for batteries and no motor and while I dislike Lynn's writing you can't deny that they have made some impressive voyages - all relatively green; probably if one includes the energy needed to manufacture all the various bits needed to build a Green Boat, a far greener boat then others. What we need isn't green boats, it is green people. Cheers, Brice |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
One of the problems using the engine propeller to turn an alternator
is that the prop pitch is all wrong. By 90 degrees, in fact. |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
Bruce wrote:
On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 16:52:21 -0500, Wayne.B wrote: On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 18:47:49 +0000, Justin C wrote: This is cutting edge stuff, most anecdotal rebuttals here have been based on old ideas and technology. Here's a bit more about it: http://www.matternetwork.com/2010/11...f-cruising.cfm Several of us have done analyses based on the laws of physics, which have yet to be repealed by new technology. Water mills are well understood, have been around for a long time, and do not require the application of quantum mechanics. A 20 inch prop being dragged through water at 6 knots can generate somewhere between 1 and 4 KW of electricity depending on how optimistic your assumptions are. Even the high end number is not enough to recharge a *large* battery bank in a reasonable length of time. The whole thing is basically ludicrous. Boats have been essentially "green" for centuries, in fact I once owned a Friendship Sloop that was. No motor, no electric lights, no navigation gear other then a compass. I sailed up and down on the coast of Maine with no real problems. Has a little one burner kerosene stove for cooking and woolen clothes for heating. The Bugis sailed their schooners around the Java Sea until relatively recently with no motor, air con, ice makers or fridges, and smaller boats still do in that area. I agree that these boats weren't completely green as they used kerosene for nav lights and cooking but likely less energy then is taken to make the batteries and motors that power that Million Dollar Cat that Justen mentioned. The real question is not how to build a yacht that uses no energy but how to find a yachtsmen that doesn't demand all those luxuries. The Pardies have sailed for years with no electricity except for batteries and no motor and while I dislike Lynn's writing you can't deny that they have made some impressive voyages - all relatively green; probably if one includes the energy needed to manufacture all the various bits needed to build a Green Boat, a far greener boat then others. What we need isn't green boats, it is green people. Cheers, Brice Bingo! -- Richard Lamb email me: web site: www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 22:49:30 -0600, CaveLamb
wrote: One of the problems using the engine propeller to turn an alternator is that the prop pitch is all wrong. By 90 degrees, in fact. It works though, witness the bloke I mentioned that had an alternator belted to the propshaft.... just that it doesn't produce much power. Cheers, Brice |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
On Nov 22, 5:10*am, Bruce wrote:
On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 22:49:30 -0600, CaveLamb wrote: One of the problems using the engine propeller to turn an alternator is that the prop pitch is all wrong. By 90 degrees, in fact. It works though, witness the bloke I mentioned that had an alternator belted to the propshaft.... just that it doesn't produce much power. Cheers, Brice Why not use stone wheels too Bruce, since you are talking about stone age tech? Using a belt drive and a big alternator is not going to capture much energy anything. Now directly couple a motor/generator that consists of a stator winding employing a high pole count configuration, which allows for high copper utilization (minimizing energy loss and cost), and a hollow rotor upon which powerful rare earth permanent magnets are mounted on the outer circumference coupled to a variable pitch prop system and you can pump out some serious energy. The city buses that are using these moters claim they capture 97% of the kinetic energy developed while stopping. You are comparing apples to oranges. Joe |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 07:21:00 -0800 (PST), Joe
wrote: Now directly couple a motor/generator that consists of a stator winding employing a high pole count configuration, which allows for high copper utilization (minimizing energy loss and cost), and a hollow rotor upon which powerful rare earth permanent magnets are mounted on the outer circumference coupled to a variable pitch prop system and you can pump out some serious energy. The city buses that are using these moters claim they capture 97% of the kinetic energy developed while stopping. Regardless of the capture mechanism, even at 100% efficiency, there is only so much energy in a moving column of water and it is not a big number when you are moving at sailing speeds. Now if you could get that same column of water rolling down the side of a 1,000 ft mountain, that's a whole different story. :-) |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
On Nov 22, 9:40*am, Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 07:21:00 -0800 (PST), Joe wrote: Now directly couple a motor/generator that consists of a stator winding employing a high pole count configuration, which allows for high copper utilization (minimizing energy loss and cost), and a hollow rotor upon which powerful rare earth permanent magnets are mounted on the outer circumference coupled to a variable pitch prop system and you can pump out some serious energy. The city buses that are using these moters claim they capture 97% of the kinetic energy developed while stopping. Regardless of the capture mechanism, even at 100% efficiency, there is only so much energy in a moving column of water and it is not a big number when you are moving at sailing speeds. *Now if you could get that same column of water rolling down the side of a 1,000 ft mountain, that's a whole different story. * :-) I'm going to have to disagree with you Wayne. The amount of energy coming off a shaft at sailing speed can be huge. The drag can be offset by canvas with ease on a non-planing hull. If you capture 1 rpm of energy for every 4 rmp's generated by sail, and can store that energy you have a system that can work. Now if a bus can capture 97% of the kinetic energy by stopping then why can't a prop do the same ? About the smallest CVP system available is in the high 30's low 40" diameter. You ever chain down a shaft to a 40" prop? You better have some strong chain. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KSnH6DFA94 Not quite a 1000 ft drop but plenty of power to harness. Joe |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
On Nov 22, 10:54*am, Joe wrote:
On Nov 22, 9:40*am, Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 07:21:00 -0800 (PST), Joe wrote: Now directly couple a motor/generator that consists of a stator winding employing a high pole count configuration, which allows for high copper utilization (minimizing energy loss and cost), and a hollow rotor upon which powerful rare earth permanent magnets are mounted on the outer circumference coupled to a variable pitch prop system and you can pump out some serious energy. The city buses that are using these moters claim they capture 97% of the kinetic energy developed while stopping. Regardless of the capture mechanism, even at 100% efficiency, there is only so much energy in a moving column of water and it is not a big number when you are moving at sailing speeds. *Now if you could get that same column of water rolling down the side of a 1,000 ft mountain, that's a whole different story. * :-) * I'm going to have to disagree with you Wayne. The amount of energy coming off a shaft at sailing speed can be huge. The drag can be offset by canvas with ease on a non-planing hull. If you capture 1 rpm of energy for every 4 rmp's generated by sail, and can store that energy you have a system that can work. *Now if a bus can capture 97% of the kinetic energy by stopping then why can't a prop do the same ? About the smallest CVP system available is in the high 30's low 40" diameter. You ever chain down a shaft to a 40" prop? You better have some strong chain. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KSnH6DFA94*Not quite a 1000 ft drop but plenty of power to harness. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBWqy...ist=QL&index=1 Even better view....I like the "Steel Rat" name. Joe Joe- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 07:21:00 -0800 (PST), Joe
wrote: On Nov 22, 5:10*am, Bruce wrote: On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 22:49:30 -0600, CaveLamb wrote: One of the problems using the engine propeller to turn an alternator is that the prop pitch is all wrong. By 90 degrees, in fact. It works though, witness the bloke I mentioned that had an alternator belted to the propshaft.... just that it doesn't produce much power. Cheers, Brice Why not use stone wheels too Bruce, since you are talking about stone age tech? Using a belt drive and a big alternator is not going to capture much energy anything. Now directly couple a motor/generator that consists of a stator winding employing a high pole count configuration, which allows for high copper utilization (minimizing energy loss and cost), and a hollow rotor upon which powerful rare earth permanent magnets are mounted on the outer circumference coupled to a variable pitch prop system and you can pump out some serious energy. The city buses that are using these moters claim they capture 97% of the kinetic energy developed while stopping. You are comparing apples to oranges. Joe How does, as you say "high copper content" decrease costs? Cheers, Brice |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 08:54:03 -0800 (PST), Joe
wrote: On Nov 22, 9:40*am, Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 07:21:00 -0800 (PST), Joe wrote: Now directly couple a motor/generator that consists of a stator winding employing a high pole count configuration, which allows for high copper utilization (minimizing energy loss and cost), and a hollow rotor upon which powerful rare earth permanent magnets are mounted on the outer circumference coupled to a variable pitch prop system and you can pump out some serious energy. The city buses that are using these moters claim they capture 97% of the kinetic energy developed while stopping. Regardless of the capture mechanism, even at 100% efficiency, there is only so much energy in a moving column of water and it is not a big number when you are moving at sailing speeds. *Now if you could get that same column of water rolling down the side of a 1,000 ft mountain, that's a whole different story. * :-) I'm going to have to disagree with you Wayne. The amount of energy coming off a shaft at sailing speed can be huge. The drag can be offset by canvas with ease on a non-planing hull. If you capture 1 rpm of energy for every 4 rmp's generated by sail, and can store that energy you have a system that can work. Now if a bus can capture 97% of the kinetic energy by stopping then why can't a prop do the same ? About the smallest CVP system available is in the high 30's low 40" diameter. You ever chain down a shaft to a 40" prop? You better have some strong chain. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KSnH6DFA94 Not quite a 1000 ft drop but plenty of power to harness. Joe Are you normally obtuse, or have you always gotten your technical information from the movies? The Youtube show you recommended states that it is a 200 ton sailing boat. While your reference doesn't indicate the length of the vessel but seems to say that they were doing 9 knots. I found a reference to another 200 ton sailing vessel on the net - it was 138 feet long. The hull speed for a 138 ft. vessel is about 16 knots so your reference was sailing at abut half hull speed (56% actually). Hardly impressive. And, by the bay, how many sailing yachts have you been on that were fitted with a 40 inch propeller? Cheers, Brice |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
On Nov 22, 6:39*pm, Bruce wrote:
On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 08:54:03 -0800 (PST), Joe wrote: On Nov 22, 9:40 am, Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 07:21:00 -0800 (PST), Joe wrote: Now directly couple a motor/generator that consists of a stator winding employing a high pole count configuration, which allows for high copper utilization (minimizing energy loss and cost), and a hollow rotor upon which powerful rare earth permanent magnets are mounted on the outer circumference coupled to a variable pitch prop system and you can pump out some serious energy. The city buses that are using these moters claim they capture 97% of the kinetic energy developed while stopping. Regardless of the capture mechanism, even at 100% efficiency, there is only so much energy in a moving column of water and it is not a big number when you are moving at sailing speeds. Now if you could get that same column of water rolling down the side of a 1,000 ft mountain, that's a whole different story. :-) *I'm going to have to disagree with you Wayne. The amount of energy coming off a shaft at sailing speed can be huge. The drag can be offset by canvas with ease on a non-planing hull. If you capture 1 rpm of energy for every 4 rmp's generated by sail, and can store that energy you have a system that can work. Now if a bus can capture 97% of the kinetic energy by stopping then why can't a prop do the same ? About the smallest CVP system available is in the high 30's low 40" diameter. You ever chain down a shaft to a 40" prop? You better have some strong chain. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KSnH6DFA94*Not quite a 1000 ft drop but plenty of power to harness. Joe Are you normally obtuse, or have you always gotten your technical information from the movies? The Youtube show you recommended states that it is a 200 ton sailing boat. While your reference doesn't indicate the length of the vessel but seems to say that they were doing 9 knots. I found a reference to another 200 ton sailing vessel on the net - it was 138 feet long. The hull speed for a 138 ft. vessel is about 16 knots so your reference was sailing at abut half hull speed (56% actually). Hardly impressive. Hardly, but enough to spin a big prop without much concern of the drag the prop makes.. And, by the bay, how many sailing yachts have you been on that were fitted with a 40 inch propeller? None by the bay;0). Never been on with a CVP propellor, or cort nozzles either. Never been on one with a bow thruster , or forward looking sonar, or a kite drive either. Never been on a hydrofoil bigger than a rave...but there are ones out there. Have been on a hundred boats with 25-72 inch props and had to chain them down many times to prevent damage to the gears. As I said the power is massive and you had better have heavy chains and binders. Joe Cheers, Brice- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 17:49:24 -0800 (PST), Joe
wrote: Have been on a hundred boats with 25-72 inch props and had to chain them down many times to prevent damage to the gears. As I said the power is massive and you had better have heavy chains and binders. Joe, my trawler has 30 inch, 4 bladed props on 2 1/2 shafts. Can you suggest a procedure for safely binding/chaining a shaft while underway? I was thinking about something like 3 or 4 loops of 1 inch line terminating in a block and tackle lead to an overhead beam. |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 21:37:09 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote: On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 17:49:24 -0800 (PST), Joe wrote: Have been on a hundred boats with 25-72 inch props and had to chain them down many times to prevent damage to the gears. As I said the power is massive and you had better have heavy chains and binders. Joe, my trawler has 30 inch, 4 bladed props on 2 1/2 shafts. Can you suggest a procedure for safely binding/chaining a shaft while underway? I was thinking about something like 3 or 4 loops of 1 inch line terminating in a block and tackle lead to an overhead beam. If you are serious the usual method is to install a shaft brake. Mechanical or hydraulic disk brake. Cheers, Brice |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 17:49:24 -0800 (PST), Joe
wrote: On Nov 22, 6:39*pm, Bruce wrote: On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 08:54:03 -0800 (PST), Joe wrote: On Nov 22, 9:40 am, Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 07:21:00 -0800 (PST), Joe wrote: Now directly couple a motor/generator that consists of a stator winding employing a high pole count configuration, which allows for high copper utilization (minimizing energy loss and cost), and a hollow rotor upon which powerful rare earth permanent magnets are mounted on the outer circumference coupled to a variable pitch prop system and you can pump out some serious energy. The city buses that are using these moters claim they capture 97% of the kinetic energy developed while stopping. Regardless of the capture mechanism, even at 100% efficiency, there is only so much energy in a moving column of water and it is not a big number when you are moving at sailing speeds. Now if you could get that same column of water rolling down the side of a 1,000 ft mountain, that's a whole different story. :-) *I'm going to have to disagree with you Wayne. The amount of energy coming off a shaft at sailing speed can be huge. The drag can be offset by canvas with ease on a non-planing hull. If you capture 1 rpm of energy for every 4 rmp's generated by sail, and can store that energy you have a system that can work. Now if a bus can capture 97% of the kinetic energy by stopping then why can't a prop do the same ? About the smallest CVP system available is in the high 30's low 40" diameter. You ever chain down a shaft to a 40" prop? You better have some strong chain. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KSnH6DFA94*Not quite a 1000 ft drop but plenty of power to harness. Joe Are you normally obtuse, or have you always gotten your technical information from the movies? The Youtube show you recommended states that it is a 200 ton sailing boat. While your reference doesn't indicate the length of the vessel but seems to say that they were doing 9 knots. I found a reference to another 200 ton sailing vessel on the net - it was 138 feet long. The hull speed for a 138 ft. vessel is about 16 knots so your reference was sailing at abut half hull speed (56% actually). Hardly impressive. Hardly, but enough to spin a big prop without much concern of the drag the prop makes.. Are you serious? I've never seen anyone who doesn't care about drag. The largest ships in the world are certainly extremely concerned about it and in fact that is probably the major pitch that the paint companies have when trying to sell to those companies. The Emma Mersk brags about their super slippery paint that saves them 1,200 tons of fuel a year. The funny looking "bulb bow" that you see on most modern shipping is solely to reduce drag. And, by the bay, how many sailing yachts have you been on that were fitted with a 40 inch propeller? None by the bay;0). Never been on with a CVP propellor, or cort nozzles either. Never been on one with a bow thruster , or forward looking sonar, or a kite drive either. Never been on a hydrofoil bigger than a rave...but there are ones out there. Have been on a hundred boats with 25-72 inch props and had to chain them down many times to prevent damage to the gears. As I said the power is massive and you had better have heavy chains and binders. Joe You are undoubtedly correct in that big props turn bigger load but equally have large drag factors. Unfortunately there is no magic. You want to generate a lot of energy at sail boat speeds 7 - 8 knots and you are going to have a substantial amount of drag, which, of course, slows the boat and requires a larger prop to generate the same power, which slows the boat...... Cheers, Brice |
Hybrid Energy Drive / Eco-Sailing
On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 21:37:09 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote: On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 17:49:24 -0800 (PST), Joe wrote: Have been on a hundred boats with 25-72 inch props and had to chain them down many times to prevent damage to the gears. As I said the power is massive and you had better have heavy chains and binders. Joe, my trawler has 30 inch, 4 bladed props on 2 1/2 shafts. Can you suggest a procedure for safely binding/chaining a shaft while underway? I was thinking about something like 3 or 4 loops of 1 inch line terminating in a block and tackle lead to an overhead beam. Out of curiosity, why chain the shaft? Are you running on one engine? And, if you are how is it working for you. I tried it and it simply dropped the speed by about half :-( Cheers, Brice |
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