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The perfect boat
Maybe the perfect boat is one that is paid for. I am constantly
looking for a solution to the problems of high slip fees, trailerability, my need for shoal draft, etc. This has prompted my interest in the Presto 30 and sharpies in general. However, my old S2 was long ago paid for and with 3'10" draft can go many places most sail boats cannot go. She is also seaworthy (newish standing rigging and sails etc) and familiar. I even replaced her engine a few years ago to make her better for long trip under mostly power. The cost of a new boat would pay for many years of slip fees. Now that my daughter and her bf (probably will be her husband) have graduated and want to do some cruising, I have them to help move the old S2 about on the coast from place to place. I'll probably stay with my good old boat for awhile. |
The perfect boat
On Sun, 6 Dec 2009 20:15:05 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch
wrote: Maybe the perfect boat is one that is paid for. I am constantly looking for a solution to the problems of high slip fees, trailerability, my need for shoal draft, etc. This has prompted my interest in the Presto 30 and sharpies in general. However, my old S2 was long ago paid for and with 3'10" draft can go many places most sail boats cannot go. She is also seaworthy (newish standing rigging and sails etc) and familiar. I even replaced her engine a few years ago to make her better for long trip under mostly power. The cost of a new boat would pay for many years of slip fees. Now that my daughter and her bf (probably will be her husband) have graduated and want to do some cruising, I have them to help move the old S2 about on the coast from place to place. I'll probably stay with my good old boat for awhile. Out of curiosity, aren't there any places left where you can moor a boat. Maybe put down your own mooring and essentially anchor free? Where do fishermen keep their boats these days? Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
The perfect boat
Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
Out of curiosity, aren't there any places left where you can moor a boat. Maybe put down your own mooring and essentially anchor free? Where do fishermen keep their boats these days? There's quite a move to control mooring and even anchoring in many US harbors. Part of it are cities wishing to collect fees for moorages and part of it is due to those who buy expensive shoreside properties not wishing to have their views ruined by permanent liveabords who get some wreck of a boat and moor or anchor it as a solution to cheap rent. While there are some legal hassles over issues I'm not familiar about, the cities do seem to be winning. I even had some fights with homeowners when anchored overnight along the Inland Waterway. They'd 'protest' me blocking their view (for a night only) by shining bright spotlights on my boat making the inside quite bright and thus difficult to sleep. I do have some sympathy with the homeowners. Many of the liveaboards quite obviously pollute the area with their black and gray water plus looking at an array of boat wrecks covered with scrouged junk and laundry isn't a sight I'd like to see from my windows or yard. I'd also resent the pollution if I or my family used the backyard beach as a swimming area. |
The perfect boat
On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 11:34:07 -0700, slide
wrote: permanent liveabords who get some wreck of a boat and moor or anchor it as a solution to cheap rent. That is the crux of the problem right there. It gets worse. Eventually the boat becomes abandoned for one reason or another, and then it sinks, creating a navigational hazard and eyesore. |
The perfect boat
On Dec 7, 1:54*pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 11:34:07 -0700, slide wrote: permanent liveabords who get some wreck of a boat and moor or anchor it as a solution to cheap rent. That is the crux of the problem right there. * It gets worse. Eventually the boat becomes abandoned for one reason or another, and then it sinks, creating a navigational hazard and eyesore. You're talking about Neal right? We also have a boat dump here. People to cheap to pay for a slip anchor in the federal waterways, that way the city or state has no say. Most blow ashore and the city then has to dispose of them. The problem has compounded since hurricane Ike and hundreds of very cheap boats have hit the market. I'd say the ideal boat is one that can make a living for her crew and many others. The rest are mostly under used expensive toys. But thats just my opinion. Joe |
The perfect boat
On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 11:34:07 -0700, slide
wrote: Bruce In Bangkok wrote: Out of curiosity, aren't there any places left where you can moor a boat. Maybe put down your own mooring and essentially anchor free? Where do fishermen keep their boats these days? There's quite a move to control mooring and even anchoring in many US harbors. Part of it are cities wishing to collect fees for moorages and part of it is due to those who buy expensive shoreside properties not wishing to have their views ruined by permanent liveabords who get some wreck of a boat and moor or anchor it as a solution to cheap rent. While there are some legal hassles over issues I'm not familiar about, the cities do seem to be winning. I even had some fights with homeowners when anchored overnight along the Inland Waterway. They'd 'protest' me blocking their view (for a night only) by shining bright spotlights on my boat making the inside quite bright and thus difficult to sleep. I do have some sympathy with the homeowners. Many of the liveaboards quite obviously pollute the area with their black and gray water plus looking at an array of boat wrecks covered with scrouged junk and laundry isn't a sight I'd like to see from my windows or yard. I'd also resent the pollution if I or my family used the backyard beach as a swimming area. I wasn't particularly talking about live-a-boards. Just keeping a boat. What do fishermen do with their boats? They can't be mooring them in marinas, can they? The last time I was around the water in the U.S. was quite some time ago but then there were lobster boats moored in nearly every bay up and down the coast of Maine and I kept my boat on a mooring in a small bay where a number of lobster boats were and paid a fisherman a bit each month to keep an eye on it. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
The perfect boat
On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 14:54:40 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote: On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 11:34:07 -0700, slide wrote: permanent liveabords who get some wreck of a boat and moor or anchor it as a solution to cheap rent. That is the crux of the problem right there. It gets worse. Eventually the boat becomes abandoned for one reason or another, and then it sinks, creating a navigational hazard and eyesore. I wasn't especially talking about live-a-board. Rather a place to keep a boat that didn't cost an arm and a leg. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
The perfect boat
On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 12:06:02 -0800 (PST), Joe
wrote: On Dec 7, 1:54*pm, Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 11:34:07 -0700, slide wrote: permanent liveabords who get some wreck of a boat and moor or anchor it as a solution to cheap rent. That is the crux of the problem right there. * It gets worse. Eventually the boat becomes abandoned for one reason or another, and then it sinks, creating a navigational hazard and eyesore. You're talking about Neal right? Actually No! As far as Neil and his personas go I have most of them kill-filed and out of sight is out of mind. We also have a boat dump here. People to cheap to pay for a slip anchor in the federal waterways, that way the city or state has no say. Most blow ashore and the city then has to dispose of them. The problem has compounded since hurricane Ike and hundreds of very cheap boats have hit the market. Why do you say "too cheap to pay for a slip"? Does renting a slip somehow confer added dignity on one? I'd say the ideal boat is one that can make a living for her crew and many others. The rest are mostly under used expensive toys. But thats just my opinion. Joe And then there are those of us who have sufficient funds to live as we wish and to whom "making a living" is simply history. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
The perfect boat
On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 07:04:05 +0700, Bruce In Bangkok
wrote: On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 14:54:40 -0500, Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 11:34:07 -0700, slide wrote: permanent liveabords who get some wreck of a boat and moor or anchor it as a solution to cheap rent. That is the crux of the problem right there. It gets worse. Eventually the boat becomes abandoned for one reason or another, and then it sinks, creating a navigational hazard and eyesore. I wasn't especially talking about live-a-board. Rather a place to keep a boat that didn't cost an arm and a leg. Depends where you are. I checked a marina in Punta Gorda, FL a couple years ago and it was $3-400 a month dockage for a 26'. Water and electric included. Probably cheaper now. At the same time/area a 24' trailerable boat kept in a barn storage ran a couple hundred a month. Ramp launching was included. Twice a day before additional charge as I recall. --Vic |
The perfect boat
Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 14:54:40 -0500, Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 11:34:07 -0700, slide wrote: permanent liveabords who get some wreck of a boat and moor or anchor it as a solution to cheap rent. That is the crux of the problem right there. It gets worse. Eventually the boat becomes abandoned for one reason or another, and then it sinks, creating a navigational hazard and eyesore. I wasn't especially talking about live-a-board. Rather a place to keep a boat that didn't cost an arm and a leg. The restrictions exist partly due to the 'bum' live aboard' issue but apply to overnight anchoring as well. Frex, last time I was there, and I suppose this won't change, Vero Beach's excellent anchorage is forbidden even for a night unless you pay a fee to the city. As I said in my post, those who live on the coast objected to me anchoring off their backyards even for a night. Vero's restriction was challenged in court on some grounds out of my knowing. Vero Beach won it. That sort of restriction is rampant today. I noted it exists only where houses are. The commercial fleet isn't nearly as large as it was a few years ago. Frex, the shrimpers have been reduced dramatically by Chinese shrimp farmers. Other sorts of fishermen are reduced due to species removal or reductions. AFAIK, the northern fishermen (like Maine) are doing ok except for cod. The lobster fleet and those *#&#& pots seem darn numerous to me. Then again, it's not like I ever saw it in 1980 so I can't compare. I chatted up a few shrimpers who clearly think they are the last of the shrimp hunters. A business which has gone on for generations (they say) is now dead or dying. |
The perfect boat
Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
I wasn't particularly talking about live-a-boards. Just keeping a boat. What do fishermen do with their boats? They can't be mooring them in marinas, can they? Yes, they are in commercial docks. |
The perfect boat
"slide" wrote in message ... Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 14:54:40 -0500, Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 11:34:07 -0700, slide wrote: permanent liveabords who get some wreck of a boat and moor or anchor it as a solution to cheap rent. That is the crux of the problem right there. It gets worse. Eventually the boat becomes abandoned for one reason or another, and then it sinks, creating a navigational hazard and eyesore. I wasn't especially talking about live-a-board. Rather a place to keep a boat that didn't cost an arm and a leg. The restrictions exist partly due to the 'bum' live aboard' issue but apply to overnight anchoring as well. Frex, last time I was there, and I suppose this won't change, Vero Beach's excellent anchorage is forbidden even for a night unless you pay a fee to the city. As I said in my post, those who live on the coast objected to me anchoring off their backyards even for a night. Vero's restriction was challenged in court on some grounds out of my knowing. Vero Beach won it. That sort of restriction is rampant today. I noted it exists only where houses are. The commercial fleet isn't nearly as large as it was a few years ago. Frex, the shrimpers have been reduced dramatically by Chinese shrimp farmers. Other sorts of fishermen are reduced due to species removal or reductions. AFAIK, the northern fishermen (like Maine) are doing ok except for cod. The lobster fleet and those *#&#& pots seem darn numerous to me. Then again, it's not like I ever saw it in 1980 so I can't compare. I chatted up a few shrimpers who clearly think they are the last of the shrimp hunters. A business which has gone on for generations (they say) is now dead or dying. Yeah, the feds are cutting red snapper fishing as of 4 Jan. Lot's of people complaining that this is based on "bad science". They take no personal responsibilty for stock depletions. Just take and take and screw tomorrow. Not too long ago the state outlawed gill nets. Gill net fishermen slaughtered tons of mullet and "by-catch" (everything else that gets caught- almost nothing lives) in the harvest of mullet roe for the Japanese market. Mullet had been almopst wiped out on Floridas west coast around and north of Tampa. We saw an almost immediate increase in food fish and in mullet which are an important food for all carniverous species. I felt for the netters when this happened but was happy to see that our Gov't was doing something before the Japanese lust for anything fishy screwed Floridans permanently. |
The perfect boat
mmc wrote:
Yeah, the feds are cutting red snapper fishing as of 4 Jan. Lot's of people complaining that this is based on "bad science". They take no personal responsibilty for stock depletions. Just take and take and screw tomorrow. Not too long ago the state outlawed gill nets. Gill net fishermen slaughtered tons of mullet and "by-catch" (everything else that gets caught- almost nothing lives) in the harvest of mullet roe for the Japanese market. Mullet had been almopst wiped out on Floridas west coast around and north of Tampa. We saw an almost immediate increase in food fish and in mullet which are an important food for all carniverous species. I felt for the netters when this happened but was happy to see that our Gov't was doing something before the Japanese lust for anything fishy screwed Floridans permanently. I had nor do I have any real sympathy with the shrimpers. I would watch as they empty their nets throwing away hundreds of (now dead) animals which were collateral damage causalities. I asked them why not get into shrimp farming like the Chinese instead of letting the crop move to overseas? Their answer always was something like my father and grandfather and his father all did it this way.... I never argued with them, but am not sad to see them go either. |
The perfect boat
On Dec 9, 7:35*am, slide wrote:
mmc wrote: Yeah, the feds are cutting red snapper fishing as of 4 Jan. Lot's of people complaining that this is based on "bad science". They take no personal responsibilty for stock depletions. Just take and take and screw tomorrow. Not too long ago the state outlawed gill nets. Gill net fishermen slaughtered tons of mullet and "by-catch" (everything else that gets caught- almost nothing lives) in the harvest of mullet roe for the Japanese market. Mullet had been almopst wiped out on Floridas west coast around and north of Tampa. We saw an almost immediate increase in food fish and in mullet which are an important food for all carniverous species. I felt for the netters when this happened but was happy to see that our Gov't was doing something before the Japanese lust for anything fishy screwed Floridans permanently. I had nor do I have any real sympathy with the shrimpers. I would watch as they empty their nets throwing away hundreds of (now dead) animals which were collateral damage causalities. Slide says as he's munching down a huge platter of fried shrimp and oysters. I asked them why not get into shrimp farming like the Chinese instead of letting the crop move to overseas? Their answer always was something like my father and grandfather and his father all did it this way.... He might also have a 185K in a boat, and not be able to buy a shrimp farm due to loss of income to the Chinese slave labor shrimp farms. And what if the shrimpers go broke? Who's going to pay the 100's of millions of dollars the shrimper pay to Parks and wildlife for permits? How many thousands have you paid to replenish and restock the bays Slide? Face it the shrimpers, and fishermen and pleasure sportsmen support the protection of the stock more than any other group at all. I never argued with them, but am not sad to see them go either. Well lets hope that shrimp platter cost you a 100 bucks soon, then maybe you might give a hoot. No since in American mariners having jobs if the Chinese can do it cheaper right? I bet you drive a Toyota too huh? Joe - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
The perfect boat
Face it the shrimpers, and fishermen and pleasure sportsmen support the protection of the stock more than any other group at all. ------------ Joe, Protection of fish stocks is more in the above group's interest than anyone else's but the above are the people that make government conservation measurements necessary. They may support the protection but many do so with a bunch of hot air only. Here on Floridas Space Coast we've seen scallops, white shrimp, clams just about wiped out. As I said previously, netters were working hard to decimate mullet before the goverment stepped in. Lot's of hot air. |
The perfect boat
On Dec 9, 11:45*am, "mmc" wrote:
*Face it the shrimpers, and fishermen and pleasure sportsmen support the protection of the stock more than any other group at all. ------------ Joe, Protection of fish stocks is more in the above group's interest than anyone else's but the above are the people that make government conservation measurements necessary. IIRC you also mentioned that the Japs were the problem. If the govt wanted to fine the people that caused the mullet problems than a 1000% export tax on mullet would have been more fair, and targeted to the cause. That 1000% tax could have been used to restock and conserve. They may support the protection but many do so with a bunch of hot air only. I agree. But I've also seen and been part of re-stocking the Redfish population here along with many others that never fish. In any group you will find people just just take and never give back. But to be willing to watch a fleet of mariners just die off due to Chinese farm shrimp flooding the market, and not caring.... I find very offensive. Not to mention that a single shrimp farms inability to control a shrimp virus and desease could wipe out the whole natural shrimp stock here. Gulf and white shrimp do not do well in farms and imported stock for the farms is like rolling the dice. One discharce problem or even one seagull dropping an infected shrimp in the Gulf could kill off a whole species of shrimp. We are already seeing massive blooms of asian snakehead fish, carp, ect that are wiping out local species. Here on Floridas Space Coast we've seen scallops, white shrimp, clams just about wiped out. Got news for you MMC, the whole of the worlds oceans have just about been wiped out. So who's going to fix it? Most likely the people who depend on it, starting with the people that make a direct living at sea IMO. Someone's got to do it, and I doubt someone that could care less about a disappearing fleet is going to be the one. I saw something that was a direct result of over fishing returning from Belize. For a hundred + miles a bloom of huge jelly fish. I'm talking about everywhere you looked the water was stuffed with them for a hundred + miles, no telling how wide the bloom was. I've never seen anything like it before and have crossed the gulf many times starting in the early 80's. As I said previously, netters were working hard to decimate mullet before the goverment stepped in. As the goverment should have. But who paid for the boats to do the research that determined the netting needed to stop? Most likely same as here, the money came from fishery permits. Lot's of hot air. Is it? Joe |
The perfect boat
"Joe" wrote in message ... On Dec 9, 11:45 am, "mmc" wrote: Face it the shrimpers, and fishermen and pleasure sportsmen support the protection of the stock more than any other group at all. ------------ Joe, Protection of fish stocks is more in the above group's interest than anyone else's but the above are the people that make government conservation measurements necessary. IIRC you also mentioned that the Japs were the problem. If the govt wanted to fine the people that caused the mullet problems than a 1000% export tax on mullet would have been more fair, and targeted to the cause. That 1000% tax could have been used to restock and conserve. -------- The Japanese market was part of the proble in that instance but a much bigger problem was the irresponsible attitude of the fishermen. If left to take care of thier own industry, they'd have wiped out this important link in the food chain and caused a much greater negative impact. I also appreciate the traditional generations of professional fisher folk but there are so many more sharing a much smaller harvest and the only real choice is to either let them fish out the stock or step in before that happens. To me the second is the only option. They may support the protection but many do so with a bunch of hot air only. I agree. But I've also seen and been part of re-stocking the Redfish population here along with many others that never fish. In any group you will find people just just take and never give back. But to be willing to watch a fleet of mariners just die off due to Chinese farm shrimp flooding the market, and not caring.... I find very offensive. ------------ I think this is where a "co-op" between the industry and Gov't would make sense - come up with a plan to manage and restock before it becomes a crisis. I watched Port Canaveral go from about 70% working port to 70% cruise liner port and I hate it. I rather be downwind of a pile of scallop shells than a bus load of tourists any day. I salute you for helping with the restock! That's great. -------------. Not to mention that a single shrimp farms inability to control a shrimp virus and desease could wipe out the whole natural shrimp stock here. Gulf and white shrimp do not do well in farms and imported stock for the farms is like rolling the dice. One discharce problem or even one seagull dropping an infected shrimp in the Gulf could kill off a whole species of shrimp. We are already seeing massive blooms of asian snakehead fish, carp, ect that are wiping out local species. Here on Floridas Space Coast we've seen scallops, white shrimp, clams just about wiped out. Got news for you MMC, the whole of the worlds oceans have just about been wiped out. So who's going to fix it? Most likely the people who depend on it, starting with the people that make a direct living at sea IMO. ------------ I've been in on on the water for a lot of years and have seen a lot of change-not much of it for the good except for the Gov't stopping dumping of trash and waste and trying to regulate the take- but usually in reaction to problems rather than proactively to avoid them. About who will fix it? I don't think it will happen at all. When the mullet netters lost that livelihood? they took up crabbing and clamming and help to screw those up too. ----------- Someone's got to do it, and I doubt someone that could care less about a disappearing fleet is going to be the one. I saw something that was a direct result of over fishing returning from Belize. For a hundred + miles a bloom of huge jelly fish. I'm talking about everywhere you looked the water was stuffed with them for a hundred + miles, no telling how wide the bloom was. I've never seen anything like it before and have crossed the gulf many times starting in the early 80's. As I said previously, netters were working hard to decimate mullet before the goverment stepped in. As the goverment should have. But who paid for the boats to do the research that determined the netting needed to stop? Most likely same as here, the money came from fishery permits. Lot's of hot air. Is it? Joe ------- Thanks for a reasonable discussion Joe. |
The perfect boat
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 08:44:35 -0800 (PST), Joe
wrote: On Dec 9, 7:35*am, slide wrote: mmc wrote: Yeah, the feds are cutting red snapper fishing as of 4 Jan. Lot's of people complaining that this is based on "bad science". They take no personal responsibilty for stock depletions. Just take and take and screw tomorrow. Not too long ago the state outlawed gill nets. Gill net fishermen slaughtered tons of mullet and "by-catch" (everything else that gets caught- almost nothing lives) in the harvest of mullet roe for the Japanese market. Mullet had been almopst wiped out on Floridas west coast around and north of Tampa. We saw an almost immediate increase in food fish and in mullet which are an important food for all carniverous species. I felt for the netters when this happened but was happy to see that our Gov't was doing something before the Japanese lust for anything fishy screwed Floridans permanently. I had nor do I have any real sympathy with the shrimpers. I would watch as they empty their nets throwing away hundreds of (now dead) animals which were collateral damage causalities. Slide says as he's munching down a huge platter of fried shrimp and oysters. I asked them why not get into shrimp farming like the Chinese instead of letting the crop move to overseas? Their answer always was something like my father and grandfather and his father all did it this way.... He might also have a 185K in a boat, and not be able to buy a shrimp farm due to loss of income to the Chinese slave labor shrimp farms. And what if the shrimpers go broke? Who's going to pay the 100's of millions of dollars the shrimper pay to Parks and wildlife for permits? How many thousands have you paid to replenish and restock the bays Slide? Face it the shrimpers, and fishermen and pleasure sportsmen support the protection of the stock more than any other group at all. I never argued with them, but am not sad to see them go either. Well lets hope that shrimp platter cost you a 100 bucks soon, then maybe you might give a hoot. No since in American mariners having jobs if the Chinese can do it cheaper right? I bet you drive a Toyota too huh? Joe Of course, the Japanese, historically, and the Chinese today, are the ones buying all the US dollar bond issues from the Treasury... Do you know what happens to a nation's currency when they announce a treasury bond sale and no one buys? I agree that this is somewhat of a side run around the fish but it does serve to partially explain why the US doesn't simply ban Japanese cars, in your example, or Chinese shrimp. The problem is that the world is no longer a simple place. The U.S. is likely the Chinese' largest single customer, but the Chinese also buy a substantial amount of the U.S. debt. The U.S. buys Japanese cars and the Japanese lease the U.S. the bases in Okinawa, which apparently the U.S. considers important if the recent talks are any indication. And round and round... You ban Chinese shrimp to help the U.S. shrimp fishermen; the Chinese stop buying bonds, the dollar drops in value, fuel goes up, in U.S. dollar terms, the fisherman can't afford diesel, U.S. shrimp go up in price in the U.S. - they become a luxury food and sales drop..... the fisherman decides to quit fishing... Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
The perfect boat
On Dec 9, 3:27*pm, "mmc" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message ... On Dec 9, 11:45 am, "mmc" wrote: Face it the shrimpers, and fishermen and pleasure sportsmen support the protection of the stock more than any other group at all. ------------ Joe, Protection of fish stocks is more in the above group's interest than anyone else's but the above are the people that make government conservation measurements necessary. *IIRC you also mentioned that the Japs were the problem. If the govt wanted to fine the people that caused the mullet problems than a 1000% export tax on mullet would have been more fair, and targeted to the cause. That 1000% tax could have been used to restock and conserve. -------- The Japanese market was part of the proble in that instance but a much bigger problem was the irresponsible attitude of the fishermen. If left to take care of thier own industry, they'd have wiped out this important link in the food chain and caused a much greater negative impact. I also appreciate the traditional generations of professional fisher folk but there are so many more sharing a much smaller harvest and the only real choice is to either let them fish out the stock or step in before that happens. To me the second is the only option. here that is not so, back many years ago they stopped passing out commerical shrimp licences. Now you have to purchace that licences from an existing owner willing to sell it. You can buy his boat for next to nothing but the licences is worth around a 100K. Sort of like NY Taxi cabs plates. They may support the protection but many do so with a bunch of hot air only. I agree. But I've also seen and been part of re-stocking the Redfish population here along with many others that never fish. In any group you will find people just just take and never give back. But to be willing to watch a fleet of mariners just die off due to Chinese farm shrimp flooding the market, and not caring.... I find very offensive. ------------ I think this is where a "co-op" between the industry and Gov't would make sense - come up with a plan to manage and restock before it becomes a crisis. Thats happening everywhere. The industry and rules are heavly regulated. The FV San Jacinto drags most every day monitoring the bay and set the rules and limits and times shrimpers can fish. I watched Port Canaveral go from about 70% working port to 70% cruise liner port and I hate it. I rather be downwind of a pile of scallop shells than a bus load of tourists any day. I salute you for helping with the restock! That's great. Not me, the CCA in Corpus Christi deserves all the credit. http://www.ccatexas.org We just had a boat (among 100's) that could release fingerlings. They have done a great job in bringing back the Redfish in all Texas bays releasing 10's of millions of fish to the bays. We now have 10X the Redfish counted in the 70's. -------------. Not to mention that a single shrimp farms inability to control a shrimp virus and desease could wipe out the whole natural shrimp stock here. Gulf and white shrimp do not do well in farms and imported stock for the farms is like rolling the dice. One discharce problem or even one seagull dropping an infected shrimp in the Gulf could kill off a whole species of shrimp. We are already seeing massive blooms of asian snakehead fish, carp, ect that are wiping out local species. Here on Floridas Space Coast we've seen scallops, white shrimp, clams just about wiped out. *Got news for you MMC, the whole of the worlds oceans have just about been wiped out. So who's going to fix it? Most likely the people who depend on it, starting with the people that make a direct living at sea IMO. ------------ I've been in on on the water for a lot of years and have seen a lot of change-not much of it for the good except for the Gov't stopping dumping of trash and waste and trying to regulate the take- but usually in reaction to problems rather than proactively to avoid them. I've seen much of the opposite. The oil field is about a zero discharge industry now. When I started there often the answer was to put drums of soap on the back deck, punch holes in them and run back and forth through an oil slick to disperse it before anyone notices. Remember the tar balls that use to wash up...havent seen that in many many years now. The shrimpers have T.E.D.'s now and in Galveston we have a huge sea turtle hatchery. But we have a very long way to go to get back to the good ol days About who will fix it? I don't think it will happen at all. When the mullet netters lost that livelihood? they took up crabbing and clamming and help to screw those up too. I guess I have a bit more faith in mankind, many smart fishermen look at what happened to the cod stock up north and figured that something has to be done. I'm a firm beliver that we can manage and protect the fisheries, and if done right we can even make them better for the next generation. It's been done with the Redfish here it can be done with most any species. In my life I think I've been to one place that was pristine at the time (Diego Garcia) and it was the most awesome thing you have ever seen. 100's of types of coral forming giant reefs covered with a 1000 different types of brilliantly colored exotic fish that numbered in the millions. You could catch 30 lb red snappers everytime you dropped a hook in the water. It was heaven on earth, or hell if you ran into Hector. http://www.zianet.com/tedmorris/dg/hector.html Joe ----------- Someone's got to do it, and I doubt someone that could care less about a disappearing fleet is going to be the one. *I saw something that was a direct result of over fishing returning from Belize. For a hundred + miles a bloom of huge jelly fish. I'm talking about everywhere you looked the water was stuffed with them for a hundred + miles, no telling how wide the bloom was. I've never seen anything like it before and have crossed the gulf many times starting in the early 80's. *As I said previously, netters were working hard to decimate mullet before the goverment stepped in. As the goverment should have. But who paid for the boats to do the research that determined the netting needed to stop? Most likely same as here, the money came from fishery permits. Lot's of hot air. Is it? Joe ------- Thanks for a reasonable discussion Joe. |
The perfect boat
On Dec 9, 6:55*pm, Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 08:44:35 -0800 (PST), Joe wrote: On Dec 9, 7:35*am, slide wrote: mmc wrote: Yeah, the feds are cutting red snapper fishing as of 4 Jan. Lot's of people complaining that this is based on "bad science". They take no personal responsibilty for stock depletions. Just take and take and screw tomorrow. Not too long ago the state outlawed gill nets. Gill net fishermen slaughtered tons of mullet and "by-catch" (everything else that gets caught- almost nothing lives) in the harvest of mullet roe for the Japanese market. Mullet had been almopst wiped out on Floridas west coast around and north of Tampa. We saw an almost immediate increase in food fish and in mullet which are an important food for all carniverous species. I felt for the netters when this happened but was happy to see that our Gov't was doing something before the Japanese lust for anything fishy screwed Floridans permanently. I had nor do I have any real sympathy with the shrimpers. I would watch as they empty their nets throwing away hundreds of (now dead) animals which were collateral damage causalities. Slide says as he's munching down a huge platter of fried shrimp and oysters. I asked them why not get into shrimp farming like the Chinese instead of letting the crop move to overseas? Their answer always was something like my father and grandfather and his father all did it this way.... He might also have a 185K in a boat, and not be able to buy a shrimp farm due to loss of income to the Chinese slave labor shrimp farms. And what if the shrimpers go broke? *Who's going to pay the 100's of millions of dollars the shrimper pay to Parks and wildlife for permits? How many thousands have you paid to replenish and restock the bays Slide? Face it the shrimpers, and fishermen and pleasure sportsmen support the protection of the stock more than any other group at all. I never argued with them, but am not sad to see them go either. Well lets hope that shrimp platter cost you a 100 bucks soon, then maybe you might give a hoot. No since in American mariners having jobs if the Chinese can do it cheaper right? I bet you drive a Toyota too huh? Joe Of course, the Japanese, historically, and the Chinese today, are the ones buying all the US dollar bond issues from the Treasury... Do you know what happens to a nation's currency when they announce a treasury bond sale and no one buys? Independence day? I agree that this is somewhat of a side run around the fish but it does serve to partially explain why the US doesn't simply ban Japanese cars, in your example, or Chinese shrimp. The problem is that the world is no longer a simple place. The U.S. is likely the Chinese' largest single customer, but the Chinese also buy a substantial amount of the U.S. debt. The U.S. buys Japanese cars and the Japanese lease the U.S. the bases in Okinawa, which apparently the U.S. considers important if the recent talks are any indication. Have you heard the new name for Toyota drivers? Kamakizi's And round and round... You ban Chinese shrimp to help the U.S. shrimp fishermen; the Chinese stop buying bonds, the dollar drops in value, fuel goes up, in U.S. dollar terms, the fisherman can't afford diesel, U.S. shrimp go up in price in the U.S. - they become a luxury food and sales drop..... the fisherman decides to quit fishing... I've shrimped by sail before. America did just fine before the Japs or Chinese started buying our t notes. Selling out is not the answer IMO. Joe Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
The perfect boat
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 16:57:18 -0800 (PST), Joe
wrote: I've seen much of the opposite. The oil field is about a zero discharge industry now. When I started there often the answer was to put drums of soap on the back deck, punch holes in them and run back and forth through an oil slick to disperse it before anyone notices. When I was Oil King on my can, I once pumped about 1000 gallons of Navy Special Fuel Oil in Naples Harbor. That's heavy black stuff. It was discharged between us and the destroyer tender tied alongside. When the cry went out, I got fire hose crews fore and aft to contain the oil between ships. Then went and got some help to open the after stack and carry the 100# sacks of black sand we stored there to the rail. Dumped the sand on the oil and sank it. Some floated out into the harbor though. The boatswains still had to clean up the ship sides from bosun chairs. Lots missed liberty that day, and I was nobody's friend. But that's how it was done in "beautiful" Naples Harbor in 1966. With everybody noticing. Things sure have changed. --Vic |
The perfect boat
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 17:12:00 -0800 (PST), Joe
wrote: On Dec 9, 6:55*pm, Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 08:44:35 -0800 (PST), Joe wrote: On Dec 9, 7:35*am, slide wrote: mmc wrote: Yeah, the feds are cutting red snapper fishing as of 4 Jan. Lot's of people complaining that this is based on "bad science". They take no personal responsibilty for stock depletions. Just take and take and screw tomorrow. Not too long ago the state outlawed gill nets. Gill net fishermen slaughtered tons of mullet and "by-catch" (everything else that gets caught- almost nothing lives) in the harvest of mullet roe for the Japanese market. Mullet had been almopst wiped out on Floridas west coast around and north of Tampa. We saw an almost immediate increase in food fish and in mullet which are an important food for all carniverous species. I felt for the netters when this happened but was happy to see that our Gov't was doing something before the Japanese lust for anything fishy screwed Floridans permanently. I had nor do I have any real sympathy with the shrimpers. I would watch as they empty their nets throwing away hundreds of (now dead) animals which were collateral damage causalities. Slide says as he's munching down a huge platter of fried shrimp and oysters. I asked them why not get into shrimp farming like the Chinese instead of letting the crop move to overseas? Their answer always was something like my father and grandfather and his father all did it this way.... He might also have a 185K in a boat, and not be able to buy a shrimp farm due to loss of income to the Chinese slave labor shrimp farms. And what if the shrimpers go broke? *Who's going to pay the 100's of millions of dollars the shrimper pay to Parks and wildlife for permits? How many thousands have you paid to replenish and restock the bays Slide? Face it the shrimpers, and fishermen and pleasure sportsmen support the protection of the stock more than any other group at all. I never argued with them, but am not sad to see them go either. Well lets hope that shrimp platter cost you a 100 bucks soon, then maybe you might give a hoot. No since in American mariners having jobs if the Chinese can do it cheaper right? I bet you drive a Toyota too huh? Joe Of course, the Japanese, historically, and the Chinese today, are the ones buying all the US dollar bond issues from the Treasury... Do you know what happens to a nation's currency when they announce a treasury bond sale and no one buys? Independence day? I agree that this is somewhat of a side run around the fish but it does serve to partially explain why the US doesn't simply ban Japanese cars, in your example, or Chinese shrimp. The problem is that the world is no longer a simple place. The U.S. is likely the Chinese' largest single customer, but the Chinese also buy a substantial amount of the U.S. debt. The U.S. buys Japanese cars and the Japanese lease the U.S. the bases in Okinawa, which apparently the U.S. considers important if the recent talks are any indication. Have you heard the new name for Toyota drivers? Kamakizi's And round and round... You ban Chinese shrimp to help the U.S. shrimp fishermen; the Chinese stop buying bonds, the dollar drops in value, fuel goes up, in U.S. dollar terms, the fisherman can't afford diesel, U.S. shrimp go up in price in the U.S. - they become a luxury food and sales drop..... the fisherman decides to quit fishing... I've shrimped by sail before. America did just fine before the Japs or Chinese started buying our t notes. Selling out is not the answer IMO. Joe Sure, you did.... a while ago when the world was younger and things were simpler. Back when the U.S. manufactured what they needed and exported manufactured goods to foreign countries. Now things are different. Call the "on line help" number and you get someone in Banglaore, India. Go down to the WalMart store and everything is made in one of those cheap foreign countries. Shrimp? the Thais can grow shrimp in ponds, package them and ship them to the U.S. cheaper then you can fish them. Back in those days you could take your green dollar bills down to the Mint and redeem them for gold at $35.00/oz. today gold sells for what? Over a thousand dollars and ounce? It is a whole different world then it was back then. and it is never going to change back..... Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
The perfect boat
On Dec 10, 6:34*am, Bruce In Bangkok
wrote: On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 17:12:00 -0800 (PST), Joe wrote: On Dec 9, 6:55*pm, Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 08:44:35 -0800 (PST), Joe wrote: On Dec 9, 7:35*am, slide wrote: mmc wrote: Yeah, the feds are cutting red snapper fishing as of 4 Jan. Lot's of people complaining that this is based on "bad science". They take no personal responsibilty for stock depletions. Just take and take and screw tomorrow. Not too long ago the state outlawed gill nets. Gill net fishermen slaughtered tons of mullet and "by-catch" (everything else that gets caught- almost nothing lives) in the harvest of mullet roe for the Japanese market. Mullet had been almopst wiped out on Floridas west coast around and north of Tampa. We saw an almost immediate increase in food fish and in mullet which are an important food for all carniverous species. I felt for the netters when this happened but was happy to see that our Gov't was doing something before the Japanese lust for anything fishy screwed Floridans permanently. I had nor do I have any real sympathy with the shrimpers. I would watch as they empty their nets throwing away hundreds of (now dead) animals which were collateral damage causalities. Slide says as he's munching down a huge platter of fried shrimp and oysters. I asked them why not get into shrimp farming like the Chinese instead of letting the crop move to overseas? Their answer always was something like my father and grandfather and his father all did it this way..... He might also have a 185K in a boat, and not be able to buy a shrimp farm due to loss of income to the Chinese slave labor shrimp farms. And what if the shrimpers go broke? *Who's going to pay the 100's of millions of dollars the shrimper pay to Parks and wildlife for permits? How many thousands have you paid to replenish and restock the bays Slide? Face it the shrimpers, and fishermen and pleasure sportsmen support the protection of the stock more than any other group at all. I never argued with them, but am not sad to see them go either. Well lets hope that shrimp platter cost you a 100 bucks soon, then maybe you might give a hoot. No since in American mariners having jobs if the Chinese can do it cheaper right? I bet you drive a Toyota too huh? Joe Of course, the Japanese, historically, and the Chinese today, are the ones buying all the US dollar bond issues from the Treasury... Do you know what happens to a nation's currency when they announce a treasury bond sale and no one buys? Independence day? I agree that this is somewhat of a side run around the fish but it does serve to partially explain why the US doesn't simply ban Japanese cars, in your example, or Chinese shrimp. The problem is that the world is no longer a simple place. The U.S. is likely the Chinese' largest single customer, but the Chinese also buy a substantial amount of the U.S. debt. The U.S. buys Japanese cars and the Japanese lease the U.S. the bases in Okinawa, which apparently the U.S. considers important if the recent talks are any indication. Have you heard the new name for Toyota drivers? Kamakizi's And round and round... You ban Chinese shrimp to help the U.S. shrimp fishermen; the Chinese stop buying bonds, the dollar drops in value, fuel goes up, in U.S. dollar terms, the fisherman can't afford diesel, U.S. shrimp go up in price in the U.S. - they become a luxury food and sales drop..... the fisherman decides to quit fishing... I've shrimped by sail before. America did just fine before the Japs or Chinese started buying our t notes. Selling out is not the answer IMO. Joe Sure, you did.... a while ago when the world was younger and things were simpler. Back when the U.S. manufactured what they needed and exported manufactured goods to foreign countries. We can still do that, perhaps youve been gone to long Bruce. Take a drive across the US and you will see vast resources that have never been tapped. I think the scales are going to tip back our way because of several factor that will bring us back to where we need to be. China and all of Asia is learning fast that cheap mfg has a very big price. As they implement enviromental standards, decent wages, heathcare ect...ect and start supporting a retiring staff the playiong field will level. Now things are different. Call the "on line help" number and you get someone in Banglaore, India. Alot of that is changing as well. Dell is moving all it support back here. They found out they can hire stay at home moms for the same cost. Go down to the WalMart store and everything is made in one of those cheap foreign countries. Not everything. And if you think China will get away with keeping it's yeun at artifical low rates flooding our markets, Russia putting massive taffifs on imports.. 30% on cars for example, Indonesia requiring very expensive "Licences to import", India and Vietman just imposed massive tarrifs on steel....Dubia, Saudi.....ect...ect.......ect you are crazy. I know of many many companies bringing mfg back from China and the flood is just starting. It's like when Yamamoto said " I'm afraid we just awoke a sleeping giant." Shrimp? the Thais can grow shrimp in ponds, package them and ship them to the U.S. cheaper then you can fish them. Yeah and the Thais have no problem destroying an eco system if needed to get a fist full of greenbacks. Back in those days you could take your green dollar bills down to the Mint and redeem them for gold at $35.00/oz. today gold sells for what? Over a thousand dollars and ounce? Ed McMahn will redeem all the green you have for gold......You've been gone to long Bruce. It is a whole different world then it was back then. and it is never going to change back..... I learned to never say never. Salute, Joe Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
The perfect boat
On Dec 9, 7:22*pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 16:57:18 -0800 (PST), Joe wrote: I've seen much of the opposite. The oil field is about a zero discharge industry now. When I started there often the answer was to put drums of soap on the back deck, punch holes in them and run back and forth through an oil slick to disperse it before anyone notices. When I was Oil King on my can, I once pumped about 1000 gallons of Navy Special Fuel Oil in Naples Harbor. *That's heavy black stuff. It was discharged between us and the destroyer tender tied alongside. When the cry went out, I got fire hose crews fore and aft to contain the oil between ships. *Then went and got some help to open the after stack and carry the 100# sacks of black sand we stored there to the rail. *Dumped the sand on the oil and sank it. *Some floated out into the harbor though. *The boatswains still had to clean up the ship sides from bosun chairs. *Lots missed liberty that day, and I was nobody's friend. But that's how it was done in "beautiful" Naples Harbor in 1966. With everybody noticing. Things sure have changed. --Vic Damn Vic...I can see the slick http://www.usscharleshroan.org/image...naples1966.jpg Joe |
The perfect boat
"Joe" wrote in message
... On Dec 10, 6:34 am, Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 17:12:00 -0800 (PST), Joe wrote: On Dec 9, 6:55 pm, Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 08:44:35 -0800 (PST), Joe wrote: On Dec 9, 7:35 am, slide wrote: mmc wrote: Yeah, the feds are cutting red snapper fishing as of 4 Jan. Lot's of people complaining that this is based on "bad science". They take no personal responsibilty for stock depletions. Just take and take and screw tomorrow. Not too long ago the state outlawed gill nets. Gill net fishermen slaughtered tons of mullet and "by-catch" (everything else that gets caught- almost nothing lives) in the harvest of mullet roe for the Japanese market. Mullet had been almopst wiped out on Floridas west coast around and north of Tampa. We saw an almost immediate increase in food fish and in mullet which are an important food for all carniverous species. I felt for the netters when this happened but was happy to see that our Gov't was doing something before the Japanese lust for anything fishy screwed Floridans permanently. I had nor do I have any real sympathy with the shrimpers. I would watch as they empty their nets throwing away hundreds of (now dead) animals which were collateral damage causalities. Slide says as he's munching down a huge platter of fried shrimp and oysters. I asked them why not get into shrimp farming like the Chinese instead of letting the crop move to overseas? Their answer always was something like my father and grandfather and his father all did it this way.... He might also have a 185K in a boat, and not be able to buy a shrimp farm due to loss of income to the Chinese slave labor shrimp farms. And what if the shrimpers go broke? Who's going to pay the 100's of millions of dollars the shrimper pay to Parks and wildlife for permits? How many thousands have you paid to replenish and restock the bays Slide? Face it the shrimpers, and fishermen and pleasure sportsmen support the protection of the stock more than any other group at all. I never argued with them, but am not sad to see them go either. Well lets hope that shrimp platter cost you a 100 bucks soon, then maybe you might give a hoot. No since in American mariners having jobs if the Chinese can do it cheaper right? I bet you drive a Toyota too huh? Joe Of course, the Japanese, historically, and the Chinese today, are the ones buying all the US dollar bond issues from the Treasury... Do you know what happens to a nation's currency when they announce a treasury bond sale and no one buys? Independence day? I agree that this is somewhat of a side run around the fish but it does serve to partially explain why the US doesn't simply ban Japanese cars, in your example, or Chinese shrimp. The problem is that the world is no longer a simple place. The U.S. is likely the Chinese' largest single customer, but the Chinese also buy a substantial amount of the U.S. debt. The U.S. buys Japanese cars and the Japanese lease the U.S. the bases in Okinawa, which apparently the U.S. considers important if the recent talks are any indication. Have you heard the new name for Toyota drivers? Kamakizi's And round and round... You ban Chinese shrimp to help the U.S. shrimp fishermen; the Chinese stop buying bonds, the dollar drops in value, fuel goes up, in U.S. dollar terms, the fisherman can't afford diesel, U.S. shrimp go up in price in the U.S. - they become a luxury food and sales drop..... the fisherman decides to quit fishing... I've shrimped by sail before. America did just fine before the Japs or Chinese started buying our t notes. Selling out is not the answer IMO. Joe Sure, you did.... a while ago when the world was younger and things were simpler. Back when the U.S. manufactured what they needed and exported manufactured goods to foreign countries. We can still do that, perhaps youve been gone to long Bruce. Take a drive across the US and you will see vast resources that have never been tapped. I think the scales are going to tip back our way because of several factor that will bring us back to where we need to be. China and all of Asia is learning fast that cheap mfg has a very big price. As they implement enviromental standards, decent wages, heathcare ect...ect and start supporting a retiring staff the playiong field will level. I think this process will happen but slowly. We've exported so much of our manufacturing and we need to do so much retooling to make heavy manufactoring palatable, that I doubt we'll get much of it back. Everyone keeps harping on China's economic supremacy being just around the corner, but it isn't for many of the reasons you mention. Their growth will have to slow to be sustainable. Now things are different. Call the "on line help" number and you get someone in Banglaore, India. Alot of that is changing as well. Dell is moving all it support back here. They found out they can hire stay at home moms for the same cost. Yes. And, even though the raw numbers say that outsourcing such things is cheaper, the longer view is that it's at least the same cost if not a higher cost. We should give business added incentive to keep jobs here with both tax and other incentives. The "green" technologies (whether or not you think they're _required_ due to man-made global climage change) is one industry that we could capitalize on here. Go down to the WalMart store and everything is made in one of those cheap foreign countries. Not everything. Not everything, but it's a big number. And if you think China will get away with keeping it's yeun at artifical low rates flooding our markets, Russia putting massive taffifs on imports.. 30% on cars for example, Indonesia requiring very expensive "Licences to import", India and Vietman just imposed massive tarrifs on steel....Dubia, Saudi.....ect...ect.......ect you are crazy. I know of many many companies bringing mfg back from China and the flood is just starting. It's like when Yamamoto said " I'm afraid we just awoke a sleeping giant." It's going to be a long process. There are geopolitical issues that go beyond simple trade agreements. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
The perfect boat
wrote in message
... On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 08:58:17 -0800, "Capt. JG" wrote: "Joe" wrote in message Alot of that is changing as well. Dell is moving all it support back here. They found out they can hire stay at home moms for the same cost. Yes. And, even though the raw numbers say that outsourcing such things is cheaper, the longer view is that it's at least the same cost if not a higher cost. We should give business added incentive to keep jobs here with both tax and other incentives. The "green" technologies (whether or not you think they're _required_ due to man-made global climage change) is one industry that we could capitalize on here. Conventional tax incentives don't work to keep jobs here. That is especially true of good paying manufacturing jobs. That has been tried. However, if they started taxing corporations using a formula that made a higher "employees to profits" ratio result in a big tax benefit, it might have a chance. Obviously, if you do your manufacturing overseas, you would have a very low "employees to profits" ratio and would pay substantially higher taxes. Whatever looks best to shareholders is what will work. In the "olden days", the stock market viewed adding employees as a sign of a company's strength. Today it is considered a weakness. That is a fundemental problem that has to be changed. We're really dug ourselves a big hole. Both sides of the political divide have contributed to it. It's going to take a while to fix it, assuming the politicians have the intestinal fortitude to get it going and assuming the public holds them to it. Part of the problem is general lack of understanding of the problem, which is very complex, requiring complex, multi-faceted solutions. It is really easy to make things sound simple when they're not. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
The perfect boat
On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 06:34:08 -0800 (PST), Joe
wrote: On Dec 10, 6:34*am, Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 17:12:00 -0800 (PST), Joe wrote: On Dec 9, 6:55*pm, Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 08:44:35 -0800 (PST), Joe wrote: On Dec 9, 7:35*am, slide wrote: mmc wrote: Yeah, the feds are cutting red snapper fishing as of 4 Jan. Lot's of people complaining that this is based on "bad science". They take no personal responsibilty for stock depletions. Just take and take and screw tomorrow. Not too long ago the state outlawed gill nets. Gill net fishermen slaughtered tons of mullet and "by-catch" (everything else that gets caught- almost nothing lives) in the harvest of mullet roe for the Japanese market. Mullet had been almopst wiped out on Floridas west coast around and north of Tampa. We saw an almost immediate increase in food fish and in mullet which are an important food for all carniverous species. I felt for the netters when this happened but was happy to see that our Gov't was doing something before the Japanese lust for anything fishy screwed Floridans permanently. I had nor do I have any real sympathy with the shrimpers. I would watch as they empty their nets throwing away hundreds of (now dead) animals which were collateral damage causalities. Slide says as he's munching down a huge platter of fried shrimp and oysters. I asked them why not get into shrimp farming like the Chinese instead of letting the crop move to overseas? Their answer always was something like my father and grandfather and his father all did it this way.... He might also have a 185K in a boat, and not be able to buy a shrimp farm due to loss of income to the Chinese slave labor shrimp farms. And what if the shrimpers go broke? *Who's going to pay the 100's of millions of dollars the shrimper pay to Parks and wildlife for permits? How many thousands have you paid to replenish and restock the bays Slide? Face it the shrimpers, and fishermen and pleasure sportsmen support the protection of the stock more than any other group at all. I never argued with them, but am not sad to see them go either. Well lets hope that shrimp platter cost you a 100 bucks soon, then maybe you might give a hoot. No since in American mariners having jobs if the Chinese can do it cheaper right? I bet you drive a Toyota too huh? Joe Of course, the Japanese, historically, and the Chinese today, are the ones buying all the US dollar bond issues from the Treasury... Do you know what happens to a nation's currency when they announce a treasury bond sale and no one buys? Independence day? I agree that this is somewhat of a side run around the fish but it does serve to partially explain why the US doesn't simply ban Japanese cars, in your example, or Chinese shrimp. The problem is that the world is no longer a simple place. The U.S. is likely the Chinese' largest single customer, but the Chinese also buy a substantial amount of the U.S. debt. The U.S. buys Japanese cars and the Japanese lease the U.S. the bases in Okinawa, which apparently the U.S. considers important if the recent talks are any indication. Have you heard the new name for Toyota drivers? Kamakizi's And round and round... You ban Chinese shrimp to help the U.S. shrimp fishermen; the Chinese stop buying bonds, the dollar drops in value, fuel goes up, in U.S. dollar terms, the fisherman can't afford diesel, U.S. shrimp go up in price in the U.S. - they become a luxury food and sales drop..... the fisherman decides to quit fishing... I've shrimped by sail before. America did just fine before the Japs or Chinese started buying our t notes. Selling out is not the answer IMO. Joe Sure, you did.... a while ago when the world was younger and things were simpler. Back when the U.S. manufactured what they needed and exported manufactured goods to foreign countries. We can still do that, perhaps youve been gone to long Bruce. Take a drive across the US and you will see vast resources that have never been tapped. I think the scales are going to tip back our way because of several factor that will bring us back to where we need to be. China and all of Asia is learning fast that cheap mfg has a very big price. As they implement enviromental standards, decent wages, heathcare ect...ect and start supporting a retiring staff the playiong field will level. No the scales are not going to tip back and you, perhaps without knowing it highlight the reason. Why do you think that the wages aren't decent here? Because they aren't the high wages paid in the U.S.? Health care? Thailand has what is called the "30 baht medical plan". If you are a Thai citizen you go down to a government hospital and see the doctor. You pay 30 baht (currently $0.90) for the visit, including all medical care and medicines. This could be, for example, the same hospital that treats the King of Thailand. The mantra, "oh they are working at slave labour rates" may sound like the truth back there but if you are on the ground looking at it has an entire different look to it. Wages in most of Asia are at an all time high, the "workers" are taking home, what is to them, very nice salaries, thank you very much and in addition their tax burden is far lower both in real and relative terms than most other regions. And, of course, the cost of living is lower here then it is there. A normal workman's lunch time meal is in the neighborhood of 75 cents here in Phuket which is, I might comment, the "Gold Coast" with higher costs then in most other areas of Thailand. Medical costs? I mentioned the 30 baht scheme which is for Thai citizens however for the rest of us... I take a high blood pressure medicine, an ACE inhibitor named ZESTRIL. I pay US$ 16.66 a box. I just had a look at an on-line U.S. shop (http://www.fdarxmeds.com/buy/online/Zestril.shtml) selling the same stuff for $51.20. My wife takes a similar type of medicine Blupress at $63.00 a box at http://www.allrealmeds.com/atacand-b...ess-p-216.html My cost here $26.00. So you see, not only are your wages in the range of 25 or more times the salaries are here but your entire infrastructure is mammothly more expensive so any effort to compete seems to be doomed. And I don't even want to start on the different tax burden in countries outside the U.S. Now things are different. Call the "on line help" number and you get someone in Banglaore, India. Alot of that is changing as well. Dell is moving all it support back here. They found out they can hire stay at home moms for the same cost. Go down to the WalMart store and everything is made in one of those cheap foreign countries. Not everything. Probably not everything. Lets say, "nearly everything". And if you think China will get away with keeping it's yeun at artifical low rates flooding our markets, Russia putting massive taffifs on imports.. 30% on cars for example, Indonesia requiring very expensive "Licences to import", India and Vietman just imposed massive tarrifs on steel....Dubia, Saudi.....ect...ect.......ect you are crazy. I know of many many companies bringing mfg back from China and the flood is just starting. It's like when Yamamoto said " I'm afraid we just awoke a sleeping giant." Errr.. protective import duties are very much the norm in many places. Certainly there is a valid argument that these type of tariffs actually stifle the local development but never the less they certainly exist. Re your 30% - Thailand has an import duty of 30% on foreign made toilets. Protects the local (very well made, by the way) sanitary ware makers. Actually Yamamoto only said that in the movie... In fact historically the navy admirals argued against a war with the U.S. It was the army generals that promoted the attack on the U.S. After all they reckoned, they had decisively beaten the Russians and the Chinese why not America? How do you determine that China's currency is artificially low? I believe that the renminbi - dollar exchange rate has varied only slightly in several years. Shrimp? the Thais can grow shrimp in ponds, package them and ship them to the U.S. cheaper then you can fish them. Yeah and the Thais have no problem destroying an eco system if needed to get a fist full of greenbacks. I don't think that anyone living in the U.S. should talk about destroying an eco system. Or are you saying, "well, we destroyed ours so we know what we are talking about"? Back in those days you could take your green dollar bills down to the Mint and redeem them for gold at $35.00/oz. today gold sells for what? Over a thousand dollars and ounce? Ed McMahn will redeem all the green you have for gold......You've been gone to long Bruce. I guess I've been gone too long. Who is "Ed McMahn"? It is a whole different world then it was back then. and it is never going to change back..... I learned to never say never. Salute, Joe Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
The perfect boat
here that is not so, back many years ago they stopped passing out commerical shrimp licences. Now you have to purchace that licences from an existing owner willing to sell it. You can buy his boat for next to nothing but the licences is worth around a 100K. Sort of like NY Taxi cabs plates. --------- Sounds like a good move but unless there is a reason for the shrimp to step up production or eliminate all the other predetors, stocks will reduce annually anyway. And the "stock" NY taxi drivers rely on is increasing! ;-) ---------- Not me, the CCA in Corpus Christi deserves all the credit. http://www.ccatexas.org We just had a boat (among 100's) that could release fingerlings. They have done a great job in bringing back the Redfish in all Texas bays releasing 10's of millions of fish to the bays. We now have 10X the Redfish counted in the 70's. -------------. You helped and that is a good thing. ------------ I've seen much of the opposite. The oil field is about a zero discharge industry now. When I started there often the answer was to put drums of soap on the back deck, punch holes in them and run back and forth through an oil slick to disperse it before anyone notices. Remember the tar balls that use to wash up...havent seen that in many many years now. The shrimpers have T.E.D.'s now and in Galveston we have a huge sea turtle hatchery. But we have a very long way to go to get back to the good ol days ------------- Sounds like PR spin dude. None of this was done out of corporate kindness or any sense of responsibility. The government forced the oil company to clean up thier act and shrimpers to use TEDs. I remember the whining by a lot of FL shrimpers when the Gov made this a law. -------------- I guess I have a bit more faith in mankind, many smart fishermen look at what happened to the cod stock up north and figured that something has to be done. I'm a firm beliver that we can manage and protect the fisheries, and if done right we can even make them better for the next generation. It's been done with the Redfish here it can be done with most any species. --------------- Hope you're right and I'm wrong. --------------- In my life I think I've been to one place that was pristine at the time (Diego Garcia) and it was the most awesome thing you have ever seen. 100's of types of coral forming giant reefs covered with a 1000 different types of brilliantly colored exotic fish that numbered in the millions. You could catch 30 lb red snappers everytime you dropped a hook in the water. It was heaven on earth, or hell if you ran into Hector. http://www.zianet.com/tedmorris/dg/hector.html ---------------- I was thier in '79 on the USS Harold E Holt (FF-1074). What an awesome place. One of our mess specialists (cooks) fished all the time and one night hooked a 4-5' shark. He was pulling it back to the accomodation ladder while discussing with the deck watch how to get it aboard when a FRIGGIN HUGE hammerhead chomped it! Maybe it was Hector! Too cool. |
The perfect boat
On Dec 11, 9:20*am, "mmc" wrote:
here that is not so, back many years ago they stopped passing out commerical shrimp licences. Now you have to purchace that licences from an existing owner willing to sell it. You can buy his boat for next to nothing but the licences is worth around a 100K. Sort of like NY Taxi cabs plates. --------- Sounds like a good move but unless there is a reason for the shrimp to step up production or eliminate all the other predetors, stocks will reduce annually anyway. And the "stock" NY taxi drivers rely on is increasing! ;-) ---------- *Not me, the CCA in Corpus Christi deserves all the credit.http://www.ccatexas.org *We just had a boat (among 100's) that could release fingerlings. They have done a great job in bringing back the Redfish in all Texas bays releasing 10's of millions of fish to the bays. We now have 10X the Redfish counted in the 70's. -------------. *You helped and that is a good thing. ------------ I've seen much of the opposite. The oil field is about a zero discharge industry now. When I started there often the answer was to put drums of soap on the back deck, punch holes in them and run back and forth through an oil slick to disperse it before anyone notices. Remember the tar balls that use to wash up...havent seen that in many many years now. The shrimpers have T.E.D.'s now and in Galveston we have a huge sea turtle hatchery. But we have a very long way to go to get back to the good ol days ------------- Sounds like PR spin dude. None of this was done out of corporate kindness or any sense of responsibility. The government forced the oil company to clean up thier act and shrimpers to use TEDs. I remember the whining by a lot of FL shrimpers when the Gov made this a law. -------------- I guess I have a bit more faith in mankind, many smart fishermen look at what happened to the cod stock up north and figured that something has to be done. I'm a firm beliver that we can manage and protect the fisheries, and if done right we can even make them better for the next generation. It's been done with the Redfish here it can be done with most any species. --------------- Hope you're right and I'm wrong. --------------- * In my life I think I've been to one place that was pristine at the time (Diego Garcia) and it was the most awesome thing you have ever seen. 100's of types of coral forming giant reefs covered with a 1000 different types of brilliantly colored exotic *fish that numbered in the millions. You could catch 30 lb red snappers everytime you dropped a hook in the water. It was heaven on earth, or hell if you ran into Hector. http://www.zianet.com/tedmorris/dg/hector.html ---------------- I was thier in '79 on the USS Harold E Holt (FF-1074). What an awesome place. I was there 80-81 USS Samuel Gompers AD-37 during the Iran hostage ordeal. One of our mess specialists (cooks) fished all the time and one night hooked a 4-5' shark. He was pulling it back to the accomodation ladder while discussing with the deck watch how to get it aboard when a FRIGGIN HUGE hammerhead chomped it! Maybe it was Hector! Too cool. I never saw Hector, but swam with a ray that had about a 15 ft wing span. A friend grabbed him by the gill and he sped off, his tail cutting my leg (lower thigh) to the bone. For R&R the ship took a trip to Mauritiuis just off the souther tip of Africa, a pretty cool place as well. That was my second Wes-Pac. This is the boat I was coxswain of at Deigo: http://www.ship564.org/boats.html The sea scouts did a good job of fixin her up. Joe |
The perfect boat
"Joe" wrote in message ... On Dec 11, 9:20 am, "mmc" wrote: here that is not so, back many years ago they stopped passing out commerical shrimp licences. Now you have to purchace that licences from an existing owner willing to sell it. You can buy his boat for next to nothing but the licences is worth around a 100K. Sort of like NY Taxi cabs plates. --------- Sounds like a good move but unless there is a reason for the shrimp to step up production or eliminate all the other predetors, stocks will reduce annually anyway. And the "stock" NY taxi drivers rely on is increasing! ;-) ---------- Not me, the CCA in Corpus Christi deserves all the credit.http://www.ccatexas.org We just had a boat (among 100's) that could release fingerlings. They have done a great job in bringing back the Redfish in all Texas bays releasing 10's of millions of fish to the bays. We now have 10X the Redfish counted in the 70's. -------------. You helped and that is a good thing. ------------ I've seen much of the opposite. The oil field is about a zero discharge industry now. When I started there often the answer was to put drums of soap on the back deck, punch holes in them and run back and forth through an oil slick to disperse it before anyone notices. Remember the tar balls that use to wash up...havent seen that in many many years now. The shrimpers have T.E.D.'s now and in Galveston we have a huge sea turtle hatchery. But we have a very long way to go to get back to the good ol days ------------- Sounds like PR spin dude. None of this was done out of corporate kindness or any sense of responsibility. The government forced the oil company to clean up thier act and shrimpers to use TEDs. I remember the whining by a lot of FL shrimpers when the Gov made this a law. -------------- I guess I have a bit more faith in mankind, many smart fishermen look at what happened to the cod stock up north and figured that something has to be done. I'm a firm beliver that we can manage and protect the fisheries, and if done right we can even make them better for the next generation. It's been done with the Redfish here it can be done with most any species. --------------- Hope you're right and I'm wrong. --------------- In my life I think I've been to one place that was pristine at the time (Diego Garcia) and it was the most awesome thing you have ever seen. 100's of types of coral forming giant reefs covered with a 1000 different types of brilliantly colored exotic fish that numbered in the millions. You could catch 30 lb red snappers everytime you dropped a hook in the water. It was heaven on earth, or hell if you ran into Hector. http://www.zianet.com/tedmorris/dg/hector.html ---------------- I was thier in '79 on the USS Harold E Holt (FF-1074). What an awesome place. I was there 80-81 USS Samuel Gompers AD-37 during the Iran hostage ordeal. One of our mess specialists (cooks) fished all the time and one night hooked a 4-5' shark. He was pulling it back to the accomodation ladder while discussing with the deck watch how to get it aboard when a FRIGGIN HUGE hammerhead chomped it! Maybe it was Hector! Too cool. I never saw Hector, but swam with a ray that had about a 15 ft wing span. A friend grabbed him by the gill and he sped off, his tail cutting my leg (lower thigh) to the bone. For R&R the ship took a trip to Mauritiuis just off the souther tip of Africa, a pretty cool place as well. That was my second Wes-Pac. This is the boat I was coxswain of at Deigo: http://www.ship564.org/boats.html The sea scouts did a good job of fixin her up. Joe ---------- I think the LY Spear was the tender there when our ship was and it was during the Iran thing - we did blockade on "Gonzo Station". Small world! Sounds like a very nasty cut. Definitely lot's of sharks inside the "foot", I saw a few swim by but not the monsters. We heard a lot of shark stories from the SeaBees after losing softball games to them. Those guys got pretty good stuck on Diego with nothing else to do. Our one liberty port in the IO was Mogadishu, back before it became such a tourist hot spot. |
The perfect boat
On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 20:37:58 +0700, Bruce In Bangkok
shriecked: Medical costs? I mentioned the 30 baht scheme which is for Thai citizens however for the rest of us... I take a high blood pressure medicine, an ACE inhibitor named ZESTRIL. I pay US$ 16.66 a box. I just had a look at an on-line U.S. shop (http://www.fdarxmeds.com/buy/online/Zestril.shtml) selling the same stuff for $51.20. My wife takes a similar type of medicine Blupress at $63.00 a box at http://www.allrealmeds.com/atacand-b...ess-p-216.html My cost here $26.00. Aaargh! U wanna say you cannot afford laxative in the US??? BTW U admit you R not allowed to buy anything against Alzheimer disease and troll addiction? How sad for ur relatives 'n the neighbourgh in the Bangkog dock!!! So you see, not only are your wages in the range of 25 or more times the salaries are here but your entire infrastructure is mammothly more expensive so any effort to compete seems to be doomed. And I don't even want to start on the different tax burden in countries outside the U.S. Uhuu, especially when you're NOT on the right medication!!!! ;-) Mort, proctologist of the usenet. "Rather a poor guess as I came to Thailand 40-some years ago and have a been married to the same (Thai) woman for 42 years. Have one son, a daughter-in-law and two grand-kids (5 & 7) and have lived in our present house since 2526. Prior to building this house we lived in a purchased house in the same district for 9 years and before that in various rented houses in different towns up-country. Now that you have given us the benefit of your brilliant and penetrating insight into the life and times of Good Soldier would you like to enlighten us further about things in the Kingdom?" Ravings on 2 Mar 2009, from the GSS senile troll of sct, aka Bruce-in-Bangkok of rbc aka Gross Senile Soldier aka 'Borked Pseudo Mailed' aka LardGay aka Brian aka...YAWN!! |
The perfect boat
On Dec 17, 6:32*pm, (Magnus) wrote:
On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 20:37:58 +0700, Bruce In Bangkok shriecked: Medical costs? I mentioned the 30 baht scheme which is for Thai citizens however for the rest of us... I take a high blood pressure medicine, an ACE inhibitor named ZESTRIL. I pay US$ 16.66 a box. I just had a look at an on-line U.S. shop (http://www.fdarxmeds.com/buy/online/Zestril.shtml) selling the same stuff for $51.20. My wife takes a similar type of medicine Blupress at $63.00 a box at http://www.allrealmeds.com/atacand-b...ess-p-216.html My cost here $26.00. Aaargh! U wanna say you cannot afford laxative in the US??? BTW U admit you R not allowed to buy anything against Alzheimer disease and troll addiction? How sad for ur relatives 'n the neighbourgh in the Bangkog dock!!! I feel sorry for you I only send you that stuff if I think it is interesting. ELEVEN T WON |
The perfect boat
I know my boat needs work I now nothing about, Its a 75 so I'm sure
nothing is like new but I really enjoy sailing it, If you plan on selling your boat try to fix what you can, it will prep you for your next project (And yes unless you buy new your next boat will be a project) Even if its little fixes it still will help. I don't like sea food so I'm for no fishing...lol (the wife would slap me over this) I have the perfect boat because I've been able to sail a season for very little invested and if it works out we find something that we can live aboard I would never say mine was a mistake by any aspect. If you don't learn anything more then what to look for next time. Mario S/V "Don't Wake Me" |
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