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hpeer wrote:
Jeff wrote:
hpeer wrote:

Something else interesting is a recent Yale/George Mason report on
American attitudes towards climate change. It seems that the deniers
fall into a fairly well defined demographic:
Well paid
Home owners
Older
Well educated
White
Men

research.yale.edu/environment/uploads/CCAmericanMind.pdf

You might ask yourself if your opinion is because of your reasoned
and enlightened thoughts - or because of the group you belong to.


Fascinating report; it will take some time to go through, it but I
think you're mis-reading it. The only demographics I saw were with
regard to ALL respondents, not just the deniers.


Ah,my mistake. Similar report by Yale. The attached URL should take
you to the one with the demographics. They are in the back end. What I
found most interesting was the comparisons of TRUST. These guys don't
trust anyone excepting, perhaps, family and friends.

environment.yale.edu/uploads/6Americas2009.pdf

If fact, the report seems to be saying the the overwhelming majority
believe that Global Climate Change is real and something should be
done about it, while the deniers are a small minority, under 10% in
most of the categories.


Correct, however almost no one IS doing anything about it. This comes
out in the new report.

Since almost any national survey will have about 15% supporting any
outlandish claim (we faked the moon landings, Area 51 aliens, etc.)
its a little hard to prove anything by looking at the demographics of
a small group of deniers.


Agree. I was not trying to PROVE anything other than to ask the
gentlemen to question the source of their beliefs. Are they considered
opinions or because that is what their cohort things - peer pressure.



Ah! This is also an interesting study. But I'm not sure I buy the
"peer pressure" theory unless you include geography. For instance, the
education level for "alarmed" is not very different from "dismissive"
and income level could be explained by the gender difference, etc. Much
more significant factors are living in the "red state" areas.

I was struck by the "I do not need more information" response: 73% for
dismissive, much lower for everyone else. Its clear that the deniers
have made up their mind and are not interested in any "facts." And they
don't pay attention to energy conservation information, either.

The "trust" questions really tell it all: its clear that for deniers
this is based more on politics than reality. And of course, Fox News is
"often" more than twice the national average; Rush is 7 times the
average! This is in line with not wanting real information.
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When was the Earth hotter and what was the results? Are you talking
Dinosaur age? Just curious. It's fact, man has prospered during warm spells.
G



While your conclusion was not my point, it is correct. Nevertheless, human
life is not going to disappear from this planet because of global climate
change. Modern humans have existed on this planet for over 200,000 years. In
all that time, do you think we have not seen temperatures much hotter, and
much colder, than we now experience?

Some areas may become less habitable. Other areas may become more habitable.
Sea levels will continue to rise (as they've been doing for 12,000 years)
and some areas will receive more rainfall while others receive less. The
error lies in thinking that the Earth must remain changeless because we're
here and we (some of us) like the status quo. Sealevel must remain where it
is because I built a house on the beach! Help! A global catastrophe
approaches!

That life which refuses to adapt gets a swimming lesson.

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Gordon wrote:
When was the Earth hotter and what was the results? Are you talking
Dinosaur age? Just curious. It's fact, man has prospered during warm
spells.
G



While your conclusion was not my point, it is correct. Nevertheless,
human life is not going to disappear from this planet because of
global climate change. Modern humans have existed on this planet for
over 200,000 years. In all that time, do you think we have not seen
temperatures much hotter, and much colder, than we now experience?

Some areas may become less habitable. Other areas may become more
habitable. Sea levels will continue to rise (as they've been doing for
12,000 years) and some areas will receive more rainfall while others
receive less. The error lies in thinking that the Earth must remain
changeless because we're here and we (some of us) like the status quo.
Sealevel must remain where it is because I built a house on the beach!
Help! A global catastrophe approaches!

That life which refuses to adapt gets a swimming lesson.


Gordon,

It isn't just the absolute temperature, it is also the RATE OF CHANGE.
Clearly Earth is under stress due to our population level. The
population has got to where it is only because of the Green Revolution,
which is allowed by cheap energy. The old example is bacteria in a
petri dish.

So anyway, Earth is under stress. Humans are under increasing stress.
The cheap energy is going away. Now we have to adjust to a warmer
climate in a very short time. So it is the cumulative effects.

Then, when we look back we say "Well this or that animal survived this
or that temperature/climate." However we do NOT note that not ALL
species survived. Witness the dinos.

And others argue "Humanity will survive." Quite possibly true. Maye
2-billion, maybe 1-billion, maybe 100 million. No one knows. The
transition sounds kinda bleak.

As they say in financial fields, past gains are no guarantee of future
returns.

Or, its not the fall, its the sudden stop!
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hpeer wrote:
Gordon wrote:
When was the Earth hotter and what was the results? Are you talking
Dinosaur age? Just curious. It's fact, man has prospered during warm
spells.
G



While your conclusion was not my point, it is correct. Nevertheless,
human life is not going to disappear from this planet because of
global climate change. Modern humans have existed on this planet for
over 200,000 years. In all that time, do you think we have not seen
temperatures much hotter, and much colder, than we now experience?

Some areas may become less habitable. Other areas may become more
habitable. Sea levels will continue to rise (as they've been doing
for 12,000 years) and some areas will receive more rainfall while
others receive less. The error lies in thinking that the Earth must
remain changeless because we're here and we (some of us) like the
status quo. Sealevel must remain where it is because I built a house
on the beach! Help! A global catastrophe approaches!

That life which refuses to adapt gets a swimming lesson.


Gordon,

It isn't just the absolute temperature, it is also the RATE OF CHANGE.
Clearly Earth is under stress due to our population level. The
population has got to where it is only because of the Green Revolution,
which is allowed by cheap energy. The old example is bacteria in a
petri dish.

So anyway, Earth is under stress. Humans are under increasing stress.
The cheap energy is going away. Now we have to adjust to a warmer
climate in a very short time. So it is the cumulative effects.

Then, when we look back we say "Well this or that animal survived this
or that temperature/climate." However we do NOT note that not ALL
species survived. Witness the dinos.

And others argue "Humanity will survive." Quite possibly true. Maye
2-billion, maybe 1-billion, maybe 100 million. No one knows. The
transition sounds kinda bleak.

As they say in financial fields, past gains are no guarantee of future
returns.

Or, its not the fall, its the sudden stop!


Hpeer,
Recent reports show the earth has been cooling for the last several
years. (Must be true, I read it on the internet!)
The birthrate in the US (by US citizens)is not high enough to sustain
itself.
The US is expected to foot the bill for the problems caused by the
rest of the world?
Sorry, but as a senior citizen on a fixed retirement with my duly
elected representatives trying to takeaway my medicare which I pay for
monthly, I have no wish to solve the rest of the worlds problems by
donating (cap and trade taxes on energy) what little I take in.
Gordon
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Gordon wrote:
hpeer wrote:
Gordon wrote:
When was the Earth hotter and what was the results? Are you talking
Dinosaur age? Just curious. It's fact, man has prospered during warm
spells.
G



While your conclusion was not my point, it is correct. Nevertheless,
human life is not going to disappear from this planet because of
global climate change. Modern humans have existed on this planet for
over 200,000 years. In all that time, do you think we have not seen
temperatures much hotter, and much colder, than we now experience?

Some areas may become less habitable. Other areas may become more
habitable. Sea levels will continue to rise (as they've been doing
for 12,000 years) and some areas will receive more rainfall while
others receive less. The error lies in thinking that the Earth must
remain changeless because we're here and we (some of us) like the
status quo. Sealevel must remain where it is because I built a house
on the beach! Help! A global catastrophe approaches!

That life which refuses to adapt gets a swimming lesson.


Gordon,

It isn't just the absolute temperature, it is also the RATE OF
CHANGE. Clearly Earth is under stress due to our population level.
The population has got to where it is only because of the Green
Revolution, which is allowed by cheap energy. The old example is
bacteria in a petri dish.

So anyway, Earth is under stress. Humans are under increasing stress.
The cheap energy is going away. Now we have to adjust to a warmer
climate in a very short time. So it is the cumulative effects.

Then, when we look back we say "Well this or that animal survived this
or that temperature/climate." However we do NOT note that not ALL
species survived. Witness the dinos.

And others argue "Humanity will survive." Quite possibly true. Maye
2-billion, maybe 1-billion, maybe 100 million. No one knows. The
transition sounds kinda bleak.

As they say in financial fields, past gains are no guarantee of future
returns.

Or, its not the fall, its the sudden stop!


Hpeer,
Recent reports show the earth has been cooling for the last several
years. (Must be true, I read it on the internet!)


Yes, you can find all sorts of reports, reports to support any position
you would like to believe. Then again, the vast majority of evidence is
that GW is real. I tend to think most climate scientists are honest
people and that if the majority can agree on something then it is pretty
likely.

The birthrate in the US (by US citizens)is not high enough to sustain
itself.


True enough. It's all those pesky immigrants that keep coming here that
are the problem. What does that have to do with GW? If you are arguing
over-population, then you are only talking about the US (and other
select well off countries) and does not reflect the situation in the
rest of the world. You hear what you wish.

The US is expected to foot the bill for the problems caused by the
rest of the world?


Oh so wrong in so many ways:
A - I never said that.
B - How did the "rest of the world" cause the GW problem? We are 5% of
population but use 25% of fossil fuels, which lead to GW. Nope, sounds
like we (Western Civilization in general) were pretty much the cause.
C - So, if the West does not take a lead in solving the problem who should?

Sorry, but as a senior citizen on a fixed retirement with my duly
elected representatives trying to takeaway my medicare which I pay for
monthly, I have no wish to solve the rest of the worlds problems by
donating (cap and trade taxes on energy) what little I take in.


These are other issues Gordon. They suck. But have nothing to do with
GW. And, you are right that there are no "cheap" solutions. Your
argument is essentially "It's not fair."

Well, is it fair to leave a screwed up world to our grand kids? We grew
up admiring the "Greatest Generation." What will our legacy be? The
"Greedy Generation?" What would your Grand Pa say about that attitude?



Gordon



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"hpeer" wrote in message
...
Well, is it fair to leave a screwed up world to our grand kids? We grew
up admiring the "Greatest Generation." What will our legacy be? The
"Greedy Generation?" What would your Grand Pa say about that attitude?


Can't speak for Gordon, but both of my "Grandpas" were pretty much
isolationists who would agree with Gordon's position.

For what it's worth, I applaud the moves toward "green energy": solar,
geothermal, wind, etc., because they are cleaner, sustainable, and
progressive. But I refuse to worship at the altar of Global Warming which is
more of a religion than its adherants would like to admit. It's not enough
that we adopt some of their policies -- we have to adopt their mindset as
well. Sorry, but no. I'll think for myself, thank you very much.

--
KLC Lewis

WISCONSIN
Where It's So Cool Outside, Nobody Stays Indoors Napping
www.KLCLewisStudios.com


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On Thu, 1 Oct 2009 15:46:00 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Bruce In Bangkok"

aka Good Soldier Schweik shrieked:
On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 10:04:10 -0700, Gordon wrote:

Various eco groups have described the "Great Garbage Patch" in the
Pacific ocean. It has been described as twice the size of the
continental US located between Hawaii and Japan, or bigger than the
state of Texas located between California and Hawaii, or it is located
in the North Pacific. It consists of millions of tons of garbage
floating everywhere.
At the Seattle boat show was a raft made of plastic jugs and held
together with old fishing nets and with an old airplane fuselage as a
cabin. Supposedly, they sailed this raft to Hawaii and documented all
the garbage out there.
Does anybody believe this crap????
Can anybody find an actual cruiser that has been through this garbage
patch?
Why is it only the Pacific Ocean?
Why can't they even agree on the location and size?
Seems to me Al Gore has had another wet dream !
Gordon



Sounds like the Sargasso Sea where all those old sailing ships are
stranded.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)



I understand there is quite a large garbage patch at the Bangkok dock. . .

Wilbur Hubbard


Looks like the Brown-eyed Mullet got a lot of Friendship 'n Luv on the
Usenet!

:-)
Mort
"there are no docks in Bangkok" - by Bruce-in-Bull**** aka GSS, on 9
July 2009
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"hpeer" wrote in message
...
,

Yes, you can find all sorts of reports, reports to support any position
you would like to believe. Then again, the vast majority of evidence is
that GW is real. I tend to think most climate scientists are honest
people and that if the majority can agree on something then it is pretty
likely.


Galileo could have saved himself a lot of grief if he had gone along with
thar philosophy...


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On Mon, 5 Oct 2009 21:44:33 +0200, "Edgar"
wrote:


"hpeer" wrote in message
m...
,

Yes, you can find all sorts of reports, reports to support any position
you would like to believe. Then again, the vast majority of evidence is
that GW is real. I tend to think most climate scientists are honest
people and that if the majority can agree on something then it is pretty
likely.


Galileo could have saved himself a lot of grief if he had gone along with
thar philosophy...


Galileo's disagreement was not with science. His disagreement was with
superstitious religious zealots. The same situation exists today.

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