Radar - attitude changes
 

I think, if you poke around in the archives of this group, you'll find
a post from me about a year ago pontificating about how I couldn't
justify the cost, weight, and power draw of radar cruising in Maine. I
got along just fine with it even before GPS. I was confident of my
navigation to get in close where I was unlikely to encounter traffic,
etc., etc.

My plans for last spring's science cruise were to take me up into the
Bay of Fundy where radar was clearly required so I installed a Garmin
set up that has worked great except for one time. In August the radome
wouldn't show up on the network. No idea why and the problem never re-
occured. I was far up in Penobscot Bay when this happened and the
first thought that popped into my head was, "How am I going to get
home?" As soon as I realized what I was thinking, I had a good
chuckle. I hope it gives you a chuckle as well.

The radar has become one of my favorite things on the boat. While I
could always get from A to B reasonably safely without it, my route
was dictated by traffic avoidance . I'm now have much more route
flexibility as well as being safer. And, wow, I never realized how
many boats there are out there in the fog:) Besides, just working
with it is a lot of fun.

I went from Portland to Roque Island singlehanded seeing nothing
except for a couple hours of scale up around Matinicus. Last trip I
did another completely blind solo non-stop from Eastport to the Cows
Yard. First thing I saw was the cliffs at the Head Harbor Island
entrance. Worth every penny to be able to do that stuff.

BTW the Seaview mast mount for the Garmin 18" radomes is too long. My
jib hangs up frequently; especially downwind. I'm going to make an
adapter this winter to move it back. Look for alternatives if you are
planning a mast installation.

I think Garmin is the only way to go for small radars at this point.
If anyone is interested, I'll explain.

Radar - attitude changes
 

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
I think, if you poke around in the archives of this group, you'll find
a post from me about a year ago pontificating about how I couldn't
justify the cost, weight, and power draw of radar cruising in Maine. I
got along just fine with it even before GPS. I was confident of my
navigation to get in close where I was unlikely to encounter traffic,
etc., etc.

My plans for last spring's science cruise were to take me up into the
Bay of Fundy where radar was clearly required so I installed a Garmin
set up that has worked great except for one time. In August the radome
wouldn't show up on the network. No idea why and the problem never re-
occured. I was far up in Penobscot Bay when this happened and the
first thought that popped into my head was, "How am I going to get
home?" As soon as I realized what I was thinking, I had a good
chuckle. I hope it gives you a chuckle as well.

The radar has become one of my favorite things on the boat. While I
could always get from A to B reasonably safely without it, my route
was dictated by traffic avoidance . I'm now have much more route
flexibility as well as being safer. And, wow, I never realized how
many boats there are out there in the fog:) Besides, just working
with it is a lot of fun.

I went from Portland to Roque Island singlehanded seeing nothing
except for a couple hours of scale up around Matinicus. Last trip I
did another completely blind solo non-stop from Eastport to the Cows
Yard. First thing I saw was the cliffs at the Head Harbor Island
entrance. Worth every penny to be able to do that stuff.

BTW the Seaview mast mount for the Garmin 18" radomes is too long. My
jib hangs up frequently; especially downwind. I'm going to make an
adapter this winter to move it back. Look for alternatives if you are
planning a mast installation.

I think Garmin is the only way to go for small radars at this point.
If anyone is interested, I'll explain.


Sure... explain away!

I'm not a huge fan of radar... certainly don't need it on the bay. I suppose
if I were going up/down the coast, I'd consider it. But, we have far fewer
spots to stop/go to than on the east coast.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Radar - attitude changes
 

On Sep 27, 4:57*pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:

Sure... explain away!

I'm not a huge fan of radar...

I thought SF Bay was quite foggy. Am I wrong? Back when I was saying
I could do fine without radar in Maine I would also think, "Now if I
was someplace like SF Bay..."

I looked at the small stand alone radars of size and power draw
appropriate to my boat and learned that Garmin has done a clever thing
(muc has it pains me to say since there is much I hate about Garmin in
general). Their radars do all the signal processing up in the radome
and then turn it into a signal that runs along a standard Cat 5
computer network cable like the one that probably is plugged into the
back of your computer. A clever person could certainly hack software
to make it display on a lap top. Most of their chartplotters accept
this signal. So, for less than $200 more than a stand alone unit, I
could buy a radome and a 3205 chartplotter with charts for the entire
U.S. preloaded. I essentially got a second larger and more
sophisticated chartplotter for free and a color display instead of the
BW of comparably priced stand alone radars. Instrument space is
precious on my small boat so it was also nice not to have yet another
box.

The best thing about the set up is that the radar display can be
overlaid on the chart with the GPS position. This is a huge
improvement in situational awareness. You can figure out almost
instantly whether a blip is a buoy or a vessel as opposed to going
back and forth between a dedicated radar display and a GPS or chart
transferring ranges and bearings. When you are sailing single or
shorthanded, these workload savings reduce fatigue and improve lookout
and attention to other navigational issues.

It's very difficult to run a proper radar plot in close, complex,
waters such as along the coast of Maine. Radars of this size are not
very conducive to plotting directly on the screen although some people
do it. There are enough asterisks scattered around Maine waters that
I'm reluctant to clutter up my screen with marks as well. The chart
overlay is a great plotting substitute. You can see by watching
soundings and other landmarks if a target is just wandering around
randomly and is probably a lobster boat or maintaining a straight
course and make a good estimate of speed. If it is close to
maintaining a constant bearing, it will be pretty obvious. Switching
to full screen radar mode gives your all the standard tools which I
some times use but I have to use them a lot less because I can rule
out most targets as a CPA danger just from the chart display.

There's much more of a learning curve than I expected. I spent the
first week or two thinking "Why did I spend all this money?" I
thought the overlay was pretty useless because it was so hard to find
the little red targets in the clutter. The brain trains. Now, I
little red spot pops up and my brain zeros right in on it from six
feet away at the helm. Working with it a lot in clear weather, I
developed enough trust to do my singlehanded radar running on
autopilot trusting to the advance warning. The straighter course the
autopilot can keep, (at least when I'm standing radar watch) makes the
whole picture clearer. I have the dodger in my hand and it only adds
a couple of boat lengths to the distance in which I can spring to the
controls and do a full stop or 180 turn which is much faster in my
boat. As I said, I wouldn't sail without it now.

--
Roger

Radar - attitude changes
 

On Sun, 27 Sep 2009 13:41:09 -0700 (PDT), Roger Long
wrote:

I think, if you poke around in the archives of this group, you'll find
a post from me about a year ago pontificating about how I couldn't
justify the cost, weight, and power draw of radar cruising in Maine.

Yes. You thought I was quite foolish to have RADAR on my boat, and
couldn't understand why I thought it was good to have. G

In late June we sailed from Point Judith Pond to Wickford, RI without
being able to see more than 100 feet, and often less. Without RADAR,
we would have been stuck in Point Judith for several days. During the
entire 10 days of that trip, there was heavy fog, or fog/rain much of
the time. It did clear up while we were visiting Wickford and riding
our bikes around.

This is normal conditions for the first couple months of the season in
the Eastern LIS and Naragansett Bay areas. "Fair weather only"
sailors have a much shorter season than we do. We are often heading
out, as everyone else seems to be headed in.

Radar - attitude changes
 

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
On Sep 27, 4:57 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:

Sure... explain away!

I'm not a huge fan of radar...

I thought SF Bay was quite foggy. Am I wrong? Back when I was saying
I could do fine without radar in Maine I would also think, "Now if I
was someplace like SF Bay..."

You're right, but it's really not necessary for a couple of reasons. First,
if you have it, you have to monitor, which takes away from the enjoyment of
sailing. Second, I rarely _stay_ in the fog if I'm sailing on the bay. I
might cross through it, but I've only sailed a couple of times when you
couldn't see well enough to even consider needing it, and I've made the
choice of not going in that particular spot. Third, it's a fairly small
area. By the time you sort out what's what, you're just about done in that
area anyway. Fourth, there's lots and lots of traffic that might or might
not show up on radar, e.g., swimmers, kayaks, sailboards, and of course
tankers, fishing boats (commercial or otherwise), towboats, pilot boats, CG,
police, sheriff, and sailboats, not mention "debris" in the water. Radar
would be a distraction.

I looked at the small stand alone radars of size and power draw
appropriate to my boat and learned that Garmin has done a clever thing
(muc has it pains me to say since there is much I hate about Garmin in
general). Their radars do all the signal processing up in the radome
and then turn it into a signal that runs along a standard Cat 5
computer network cable like the one that probably is plugged into the
back of your computer. A clever person could certainly hack software
to make it display on a lap top. Most of their chartplotters accept
this signal. So, for less than $200 more than a stand alone unit, I
could buy a radome and a 3205 chartplotter with charts for the entire
U.S. preloaded. I essentially got a second larger and more
sophisticated chartplotter for free and a color display instead of the
BW of comparably priced stand alone radars. Instrument space is
precious on my small boat so it was also nice not to have yet another
box.

I like Garmin products generally. One issue is where to have the
chartplotter. I don't want something in the companion way, since people tend
to go up and down. There is a spot on the bulkhead forward of the binnacle,
but it would be a fair distance to see things. I don't have a binnacle that
would easily accept something there.

The best thing about the set up is that the radar display can be
overlaid on the chart with the GPS position. This is a huge
improvement in situational awareness. You can figure out almost
instantly whether a blip is a buoy or a vessel as opposed to going
back and forth between a dedicated radar display and a GPS or chart
transferring ranges and bearings. When you are sailing single or
shorthanded, these workload savings reduce fatigue and improve lookout
and attention to other navigational issues.

I'd definitely want an all-in-one solution if I ever got something. If I
decide to take her offshore for any length of time (coastal cruise
offshore), then I might just make the leap.

It's very difficult to run a proper radar plot in close, complex,
waters such as along the coast of Maine. Radars of this size are not
very conducive to plotting directly on the screen although some people
do it. There are enough asterisks scattered around Maine waters that
I'm reluctant to clutter up my screen with marks as well. The chart
overlay is a great plotting substitute. You can see by watching
soundings and other landmarks if a target is just wandering around
randomly and is probably a lobster boat or maintaining a straight
course and make a good estimate of speed. If it is close to
maintaining a constant bearing, it will be pretty obvious. Switching
to full screen radar mode gives your all the standard tools which I
some times use but I have to use them a lot less because I can rule
out most targets as a CPA danger just from the chart display.

There's much more of a learning curve than I expected. I spent the
first week or two thinking "Why did I spend all this money?" I
thought the overlay was pretty useless because it was so hard to find
the little red targets in the clutter. The brain trains. Now, I
little red spot pops up and my brain zeros right in on it from six
feet away at the helm. Working with it a lot in clear weather, I
developed enough trust to do my singlehanded radar running on
autopilot trusting to the advance warning. The straighter course the
autopilot can keep, (at least when I'm standing radar watch) makes the
whole picture clearer. I have the dodger in my hand and it only adds
a couple of boat lengths to the distance in which I can spring to the
controls and do a full stop or 180 turn which is much faster in my
boat. As I said, I wouldn't sail without it now.

Not quite the same thing, but on a charter boat out of La Paz, Mexico, we
had a chartplotter tied to GPS. It was a pretty simple set up, but it took
some futzing to get it to show what we wanted, and eventually we realized it
was just a distraction.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Radar - attitude changes
 

On Sun, 27 Sep 2009 15:31:00 -0700 (PDT), Roger Long
wrote:

As I said, I wouldn't sail without it now.

Yes, it's kind of addicting to be able to "see" what's around you at
all times. I cruised and raced for many years without radar, even
once passing under the bridge on Eggemoggin Reach without ever seeing
it in the fog. Then we bought our first serious powerboat 10 years
ago which had a nice Raytheon unit already installed. We quickly
learned to appreciate it at night and in inclement weather. Several
years later I had another breakthrough moment while riding on the
excursion boat from Boothbay Harbor out to Monhegan Island. That boat
had the same type of radar with one additional twist. They could
point at a target on the screen using a trackball, punch a few
buttons, and get back an on-screen data box showing the speed, course
and estimated CPA of the other vessel. Meanwhile the radar display
drew a vector line on the display showing relative direction and speed
of the target. I was immediately hooked and had to have one. Since
we were about to buy a new electronics package for our trawler I made
some inquiries about what was required. Depending on who makes your
radar it is either called an ARPA or MARPA option. It adds a few boat
bucks to the cost but is really useful and has given my wife the
confidence to stand radar watches at night by her self. Priceless!

Radar - attitude changes
 

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 27 Sep 2009 13:41:09 -0700 (PDT), Roger Long
wrote:

I think, if you poke around in the archives of this group, you'll find
a post from me about a year ago pontificating about how I couldn't
justify the cost, weight, and power draw of radar cruising in Maine.

Yes. You thought I was quite foolish to have RADAR on my boat, and
couldn't understand why I thought it was good to have. G

In late June we sailed from Point Judith Pond to Wickford, RI without
being able to see more than 100 feet, and often less. Without RADAR,
we would have been stuck in Point Judith for several days. During the
entire 10 days of that trip, there was heavy fog, or fog/rain much of
the time. It did clear up while we were visiting Wickford and riding
our bikes around.

This is normal conditions for the first couple months of the season in
the Eastern LIS and Naragansett Bay areas. "Fair weather only"
sailors have a much shorter season than we do. We are often heading
out, as everyone else seems to be headed in.

Last summer from July to end of August I was cruising the coast of Nova
Scotia.

I was glad to have an all integrated system mounted in the cockpit.

My radar attitude as changed. I found that using the radar side by side with
the plotter and watching the depth was very helpful. Having the direction
of the tide and current showing on your plotter helps.

At time when its high tide you may not see rocks (ex Brazil Rock) on your
radar screen but you will on your plotter and by validating your position
with the depth give you a warmer feeling. I have found it very practical to
plot my routes on the plotter first.

Normally radar works well in all but very bad weather conditions.
Conversely in heavy seas and heavy fog I have experienced sea clutters. The
book shows you how to control sea clutters.

While in reality I was only able to degrease and minimize the clutters.
After checking with commercial fishermen and Coast Guard vessels I learned
that this is true.

After this summer cruise I concluded that I needed to replace my radar
reflector.

Other vessels can easily interpret a small blip as part of sea clutters.
While in reality it's a small sailboat with an inadequate radar reflector.

Radar - attitude changes
 

Denis M wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sun, 27 Sep 2009 13:41:09 -0700 (PDT), Roger Long
wrote:

I think, if you poke around in the archives of this group, you'll find
a post from me about a year ago pontificating about how I couldn't
justify the cost, weight, and power draw of radar cruising in Maine.
Yes. You thought I was quite foolish to have RADAR on my boat, and
couldn't understand why I thought it was good to have. G

In late June we sailed from Point Judith Pond to Wickford, RI without
being able to see more than 100 feet, and often less. Without RADAR,
we would have been stuck in Point Judith for several days. During the
entire 10 days of that trip, there was heavy fog, or fog/rain much of
the time. It did clear up while we were visiting Wickford and riding
our bikes around.

This is normal conditions for the first couple months of the season in
the Eastern LIS and Naragansett Bay areas. "Fair weather only"
sailors have a much shorter season than we do. We are often heading
out, as everyone else seems to be headed in.

Last summer from July to end of August I was cruising the coast of Nova
Scotia.

I was glad to have an all integrated system mounted in the cockpit.

My radar attitude as changed. I found that using the radar side by side with
the plotter and watching the depth was very helpful. Having the direction
of the tide and current showing on your plotter helps.

At time when its high tide you may not see rocks (ex Brazil Rock) on your
radar screen but you will on your plotter and by validating your position
with the depth give you a warmer feeling. I have found it very practical to
plot my routes on the plotter first.

Normally radar works well in all but very bad weather conditions.
Conversely in heavy seas and heavy fog I have experienced sea clutters. The
book shows you how to control sea clutters.

While in reality I was only able to degrease and minimize the clutters.
After checking with commercial fishermen and Coast Guard vessels I learned
that this is true.

After this summer cruise I concluded that I needed to replace my radar
reflector.

Other vessels can easily interpret a small blip as part of sea clutters.
While in reality it's a small sailboat with an inadequate radar reflector.





It is a well known fact to eastern Mexico cruisers that the
electronic charts are not to be trusted and MUST be backed up with
radar. These charts were made from 1800s surveys. I understand
Worldcharts are up to date having been made from a recent survey.
As to radar reflectors. Here is a site on making your own. Haven't
been tested, but should work better than any off the shelf cheapos.
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/07/...adar/index.htm
I made mine from 10" al flashing material. Mounted it on the mizzen
spreader.
Gordon

Radar - attitude changes
 

In article ,
"Denis M" wrote:

After this summer cruise I concluded that I needed to replace my radar
reflector.

An active one will work wonders.
And (active) AIS is an even better option, provided you are aware that
only vessels over 500 tons are mandatorily fitted with one. This will
even give you the equivalent of MARPA.

HTH

Marc

--
remove bye and from mercial to get valid e-mail
http://www.heusser.com

Radar - attitude changes
 

On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 09:39:08 +0200, Marc Heusser
d wrote:

In article ,
"Denis M" wrote:

After this summer cruise I concluded that I needed to replace my radar
reflector.

An active one will work wonders.
And (active) AIS is an even better option, provided you are aware that
only vessels over 500 tons are mandatorily fitted with one. This will
even give you the equivalent of MARPA.

HTH

Marc

Those big boats can (and do) filter out all signals from AIS-B
transponders to reduce clutter on their display. You may see them, but
they still don't see you.

Radar - attitude changes
 

"Marc Heusser" d wrote in
message ...
In article ,
"Denis M" wrote:

After this summer cruise I concluded that I needed to replace my radar
reflector.

An active one will work wonders.
And (active) AIS is an even better option, provided you are aware that
only vessels over 500 tons are mandatorily fitted with one. This will
even give you the equivalent of MARPA.

HTH

Marc

--
remove bye and from mercial to get valid e-mail
http://www.heusser.com

AIS is on my wish list. MARPA works well and I like to talk about this on
another thread.

This summer in heavy fog I would acquire a target with MARPA. Then I would
monitor it.

At time the target speed was 5 knots going to 15 knots and back to 3 knots.
After 15 minutes of monitoring the target would disappear and reappeared
after. The conclusion was that it could have been a whale watching
pneumatic boat. I later checked with some owner of whale watching boats and
they stated very few boat can reach 15 knots. Beside that MARPA has work
wonder for me.

Radar - attitude changes
 

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 09:39:08 +0200, Marc Heusser
d wrote:

In article ,
"Denis M" wrote:

After this summer cruise I concluded that I needed to replace my radar
reflector.

An active one will work wonders.
And (active) AIS is an even better option, provided you are aware that
only vessels over 500 tons are mandatorily fitted with one. This will
even give you the equivalent of MARPA.

HTH

Marc

Those big boats can (and do) filter out all signals from AIS-B
transponders to reduce clutter on their display. You may see them, but
they still don't see you.

Very true, when a target is showing on the radar. I use MARPA's
information and contact the vessel with DSC. This way (hopefully) the
vessel or radar base can identify me with my MMSI number and get my GPS
position on their screen. In theory this is how it should work. I practice
it's a difference story. Most of the foreign ships have not had their
personnel trained to use DSC yet!

When practicing with friend I can track their GPS positions and they can
track me without problems.

Radar - attitude changes
 

In article ,
wrote:

Those big boats can (and do) filter out all signals from AIS-B
transponders to reduce clutter on their display. You may see them, but
they still don't see you.

If they do - they are at least at a legal disadvantage should a
collision happen.

An argument to fit an AIS-A transponder :-)

In this case an active radar reflector would be better, as it cannot be
filtered.

Marc

--
remove bye and from mercial to get valid e-mail
http://www.heusser.com

Radar - attitude changes
 

"Marc Heusser" d wrote in
message ...
In article ,
wrote:

Those big boats can (and do) filter out all signals from AIS-B
transponders to reduce clutter on their display. You may see them, but
they still don't see you.

If they do - they are at least at a legal disadvantage should a
collision happen.

An argument to fit an AIS-A transponder :-)

In this case an active radar reflector would be better, as it cannot be
filtered.

Marc

--
remove bye and from mercial to get valid e-mail
http://www.heusser.com

An active radar reflector is the way to go. The only problem is it takes
electrical power.

Power boats with a large generator have no problem.

The next best thing for a sailboat is an adequate passive radar reflector.

I am looking at the Tri Lens Radar Reflector.

It is always best to know the traffic on or close to your route.

This is best done when you are planning your route.

When this is not possible I check for traffic with the Coast Guard.

Over here we use Fundy and Halifax Traffic I visited their office and they
have the latest of equipment and land base radar antennas all around the Bay
and the gulf of Maine.

When entering narrow passages under heavy fog I prefer to make my self known
by being in radio contact with the traffic dept and the vessels in my
vicinity.

Radar - attitude changes
 

Capt. JG wrote:
I thought SF Bay was quite foggy. Am I wrong? Back when I was saying
I could do fine without radar in Maine I would also think, "Now if I
was someplace like SF Bay..."

You're right, but it's really not necessary for a couple of reasons. First,
if you have it, you have to monitor, which takes away from the enjoyment of
sailing.


This is a curious point in the rules. Since it says "if operational"
then the requirement to monitor only applies if you have it turned on.
For short trips in clear weather, I generally leave the display stashed
down below. For longer trips, I will mount it, but whether its Off, on
Standby, or Active is determined by circumstance. When I've run this by
CG "rules experts" I've always got the same answer (which is curiously
the same as the answer to other "gray area" questions I've raised):
"Your logic sounds reasonable, but remember, if there is an accident you
will have to convince the court that you did everything in your power to
prevent it."

I've long been a fan of radar and feel its required to cruise Maine, and
useful in Massachusetts. One problem now is that while in the "old
days" (before low cost radar and loran/gps) the only fools out in the
pea soup were being ultra cautious, tooting horns, going slow etc,
nowadays every rich bozo thinks he can run his sportfish at 30 knots
because the radar and GPS will keep him safe. Almost every year I've
had a close call, the worst case happening a mile off of Cape Elizabeth.
If you sail in fog, radar is needed now for defense.

Radar - attitude changes
 

On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:06:30 -0400, Jeff wrote:

One problem now is that while in the "old
days" (before low cost radar and loran/gps) the only fools out in the
pea soup were being ultra cautious, tooting horns, going slow etc,
nowadays every rich bozo thinks he can run his sportfish at 30 knots
because the radar and GPS will keep him safe.

Back in the 80s a friend of mine was bringing a new (to him) 40 ft
sailboat back from Canada in the fog. He was T-boned by a tug boat
operated by the Canadian coast guard even though both boats were
operating their radar and were aware of each other's presence. Go
figure.

Radar - attitude changes
 

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Capt. JG wrote:
I thought SF Bay was quite foggy. Am I wrong? Back when I was saying
I could do fine without radar in Maine I would also think, "Now if I
was someplace like SF Bay..."

You're right, but it's really not necessary for a couple of reasons.
First, if you have it, you have to monitor, which takes away from the
enjoyment of sailing.


This is a curious point in the rules. Since it says "if operational" then
the requirement to monitor only applies if you have it turned on. For
short trips in clear weather, I generally leave the display stashed down
below. For longer trips, I will mount it, but whether its Off, on
Standby, or Active is determined by circumstance. When I've run this by
CG "rules experts" I've always got the same answer (which is curiously the
same as the answer to other "gray area" questions I've raised): "Your
logic sounds reasonable, but remember, if there is an accident you will
have to convince the court that you did everything in your power to
prevent it."

I've long been a fan of radar and feel its required to cruise Maine, and
useful in Massachusetts. One problem now is that while in the "old days"
(before low cost radar and loran/gps) the only fools out in the pea soup
were being ultra cautious, tooting horns, going slow etc, nowadays every
rich bozo thinks he can run his sportfish at 30 knots because the radar
and GPS will keep him safe. Almost every year I've had a close call, the
worst case happening a mile off of Cape Elizabeth. If you sail in fog,
radar is needed now for defense.


Yup... it's sort of a gotcha, like many things.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Radar - attitude changes
 

On Sep 28, 7:06*pm, Jeff wrote:

I've long been a fan of radar and feel its required to cruise Maine, and
usefuOne problem now is that while in the "old
days" (before low cost radar and loran/gps) the only fools out in the
pea soup were being ultra cautious, tooting horns, going slow etc,
nowadays every rich bozo thinks he can run his sportfish at 30 knots
because the radar and GPS will keep him safe. *Almost every year I've
had a close call, the worst case happening a mile off of Cape Elizabeth.
* If you sail in fog, radar is needed now for defense.

An excellent point and a major factor in my decision to install radar
that I didn't mention. Because of this factor, I was finding the fog
routes I considered acceptably safe much more restricted when I
returned to sailing in the post GPS world.

--
Roger Long

Radar - attitude changes
 

On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:21:55 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:06:30 -0400, Jeff wrote:

One problem now is that while in the "old
days" (before low cost radar and loran/gps) the only fools out in the
pea soup were being ultra cautious, tooting horns, going slow etc,
nowadays every rich bozo thinks he can run his sportfish at 30 knots
because the radar and GPS will keep him safe.

Back in the 80s a friend of mine was bringing a new (to him) 40 ft
sailboat back from Canada in the fog. He was T-boned by a tug boat
operated by the Canadian coast guard even though both boats were
operating their radar and were aware of each other's presence. Go
figure.

The passenger liner Stockholm T-boned the Andrea Doria and about 60
died. Eventually when the blame dodging was over, the Stockholm's
third mate was said to have misread his radar.

To digress a bit: more people have died diving the wreck than died
during the sinking. One guy has taken out one party a year for more
than thirty years. He has lost 3%. It is heavily draped with fishing
tackle, of course.

Radar - attitude changes
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:06:30 -0400, Jeff wrote:

One problem now is that while in the "old
days" (before low cost radar and loran/gps) the only fools out in the
pea soup were being ultra cautious, tooting horns, going slow etc,
nowadays every rich bozo thinks he can run his sportfish at 30 knots
because the radar and GPS will keep him safe.

Back in the 80s a friend of mine was bringing a new (to him) 40 ft
sailboat back from Canada in the fog. He was T-boned by a tug boat
operated by the Canadian coast guard even though both boats were
operating their radar and were aware of each other's presence. Go
figure.

This summer while in Nova Scotia I learned that one of the sailboat got
T-boned last year.

The owner was waiting for his sailboat to be fixed. He still have problem
with his insurance.

He was motoring in heavy fog and his sailboat got T-boned by a Coast Guard
fast recue boat going at low speed.

The lawyers are still debating it. It was said that the sailboat was on
autopilot.

This summer I have learned that it is best to advise the Coast Guard Traffic
of your sail plan.

Usually the ETD, position, speed, course, destination and ETA are given. In
coastal Canadian Waters the traffic is not as heavy as in the United States
and Coast Guard Traffic will acknowledge your plan and will say report when
you get there. At time, when I was late in getting to my destination

they called me and asked for my position.

This summer we sailed in heavy fog all day under radar, plotter, paper
charts and on autopilot.

Being on autopilot gave us more time to monitor the instrument, identify
possible problem and take necessary action on time to avoid problems. The
person monitoring the instrumentations and autopilot was relieve every 30
minutes while a senior person would have a global view of the situation and
advise accordingly.

Radar - attitude changes
 

On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 11:50:37 -0300, "Denis M"
wrote:

Back in the 80s a friend of mine was bringing a new (to him) 40 ft
sailboat back from Canada in the fog. He was T-boned by a tug boat
operated by the Canadian coast guard even though both boats were
operating their radar and were aware of each other's presence. Go
figure.

This summer while in Nova Scotia I learned that one of the sailboat got
T-boned last year.

The owner was waiting for his sailboat to be fixed. He still have problem
with his insurance.

He was motoring in heavy fog and his sailboat got T-boned by a Coast Guard
fast recue boat going at low speed.

There seems to be a pattern here. :-)

Radar - attitude changes
 

I have long felt that the main goal/direction of the Rules was to address
the interaction between ships and how they are expected to be operated.
Because of this, when you get to applying the rules to recreational
vessels some things can and do become murky due to the differences as to
how the groups can and do operate (Radar use being one ..... SOP nowadays
that shipboard radar be on at all times underway)
Naturally these points can and will be argued until a particular case
goes to court and they decide the outcome.

otn





Jeff wrote in
:

Capt. JG wrote:
I thought SF Bay was quite foggy. Am I wrong? Back when I was
saying I could do fine without radar in Maine I would also think,
"Now if I was someplace like SF Bay..."

You're right, but it's really not necessary for a couple of reasons.
First, if you have it, you have to monitor, which takes away from the
enjoyment of sailing.


This is a curious point in the rules. Since it says "if operational"
then the requirement to monitor only applies if you have it turned on.
For short trips in clear weather, I generally leave the display
stashed down below. For longer trips, I will mount it, but whether
its Off, on Standby, or Active is determined by circumstance. When
I've run this by CG "rules experts" I've always got the same answer
(which is curiously the same as the answer to other "gray area"
questions I've raised): "Your logic sounds reasonable, but remember,
if there is an accident you will have to convince the court that you
did everything in your power to prevent it."

I've long been a fan of radar and feel its required to cruise Maine,
and useful in Massachusetts. One problem now is that while in the
"old days" (before low cost radar and loran/gps) the only fools out in
the pea soup were being ultra cautious, tooting horns, going slow etc,
nowadays every rich bozo thinks he can run his sportfish at 30 knots
because the radar and GPS will keep him safe. Almost every year I've
had a close call, the worst case happening a mile off of Cape
Elizabeth.
If you sail in fog, radar is needed now for defense.

Radar - attitude changes
 

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
On Sep 28, 7:06 pm, Jeff wrote:

I've long been a fan of radar and feel its required to cruise Maine, and
usefuOne problem now is that while in the "old
days" (before low cost radar and loran/gps) the only fools out in the
pea soup were being ultra cautious, tooting horns, going slow etc,
nowadays every rich bozo thinks he can run his sportfish at 30 knots
because the radar and GPS will keep him safe. Almost every year I've
had a close call, the worst case happening a mile off of Cape Elizabeth.
If you sail in fog, radar is needed now for defense.

An excellent point and a major factor in my decision to install radar
that I didn't mention. Because of this factor, I was finding the fog
routes I considered acceptably safe much more restricted when I
returned to sailing in the post GPS world.


Do you have an AIS receiver? That's something I've been thinking about
getting. For me, the issue is making sure we get out of the way as
necessary. I don't think transmitting would make much diff in the bay, since
the really big stuff isn't going to be changing course.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Radar - attitude changes
 

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 23:47:22 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
On Sep 28, 7:06 pm, Jeff wrote:

I've long been a fan of radar and feel its required to cruise Maine, and
usefuOne problem now is that while in the "old
days" (before low cost radar and loran/gps) the only fools out in the
pea soup were being ultra cautious, tooting horns, going slow etc,
nowadays every rich bozo thinks he can run his sportfish at 30 knots
because the radar and GPS will keep him safe. Almost every year I've
had a close call, the worst case happening a mile off of Cape Elizabeth.
If you sail in fog, radar is needed now for defense.

An excellent point and a major factor in my decision to install radar
that I didn't mention. Because of this factor, I was finding the fog
routes I considered acceptably safe much more restricted when I
returned to sailing in the post GPS world.


Do you have an AIS receiver? That's something I've been thinking about
getting. For me, the issue is making sure we get out of the way as
necessary. I don't think transmitting would make much diff in the bay,
since
the really big stuff isn't going to be changing course.

When sailing in poor visibility, the greatest danger seems to be from
small recreational power boats zipping around in thick fog as if
visibility was 10 miles. The commercial boats do a pretty good job of
announcing their postion heading and speed, as well as sounding the
appropriate signals. I do the same. Listening intently for even the
slightest noises is probably as important as RADAR, although not a
substitute. You need to be alert in every way at your disposal.
Otherwise, you should stay in port. During the week when most of the
center console captains are at their day jobs, things are a lot safer,
although you can never let your guard down. We also wear PFD's and
clip on in low visibility, no matter how calm conditions might be. Too
many stories of people being thrown overboard and killed in
collisions.



I certainly agree that all tools available should be used. I find lots of
people with their head stuck in their gadget (radar, gps, ais, whatever)
rather than actually looking around and listening.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Radar - attitude changes
 

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 10:12:33 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 23:47:22 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
On Sep 28, 7:06 pm, Jeff wrote:

I've long been a fan of radar and feel its required to cruise Maine,
and
usefuOne problem now is that while in the "old
days" (before low cost radar and loran/gps) the only fools out in the
pea soup were being ultra cautious, tooting horns, going slow etc,
nowadays every rich bozo thinks he can run his sportfish at 30 knots
because the radar and GPS will keep him safe. Almost every year I've
had a close call, the worst case happening a mile off of Cape
Elizabeth.
If you sail in fog, radar is needed now for defense.

An excellent point and a major factor in my decision to install radar
that I didn't mention. Because of this factor, I was finding the fog
routes I considered acceptably safe much more restricted when I
returned to sailing in the post GPS world.


Do you have an AIS receiver? That's something I've been thinking about
getting. For me, the issue is making sure we get out of the way as
necessary. I don't think transmitting would make much diff in the bay,
since
the really big stuff isn't going to be changing course.

When sailing in poor visibility, the greatest danger seems to be from
small recreational power boats zipping around in thick fog as if
visibility was 10 miles. The commercial boats do a pretty good job of
announcing their postion heading and speed, as well as sounding the
appropriate signals. I do the same. Listening intently for even the
slightest noises is probably as important as RADAR, although not a
substitute. You need to be alert in every way at your disposal.
Otherwise, you should stay in port. During the week when most of the
center console captains are at their day jobs, things are a lot safer,
although you can never let your guard down. We also wear PFD's and
clip on in low visibility, no matter how calm conditions might be. Too
many stories of people being thrown overboard and killed in
collisions.



I certainly agree that all tools available should be used. I find lots of
people with their head stuck in their gadget (radar, gps, ais, whatever)
rather than actually looking around and listening.


I don't think you can blame that on the equipment.


I don't and I didn't. I do offer some blame to those marketing the
equipment, since they want people to "rely" on their stuff, when one should
be relying on oneself.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Radar - attitude changes
 

Hello Roger,

Welcome "back" ...

It is a pleasure for me - again - to have the opportunity to read your
interesting viewpoints and comments.
Your inputs (comments and homepage and project descriptions etc.) are
most often very inspiring and relevant to me, and you seem to be very
well informed about "maritime stuff and technology" of all kinds ...

I'm curious - therefore - about your opinion - if any - on the new so
called 'broadband radar' ...

See f.ex

http://www.navico.com/en/Media/Press...oadband-Radar/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOWmWvojp98

http://www.cruisingworld.com/gear-an...000071492.html

Is it something you have studied? Considered? Seen for real?

When I read about it, I get the impression, that this is exactly what I
need as a supplement to my AIS receiver and chartplotter and the PC on
board. The material, I have seen, is - however - produced by the
respective marketing departments ... So your opinion would be highly
appreciated ... or some one elses opinion, who has specific experience
with this technology ...

--
Flemming Torp - X-342 - Denmark
Sailing in the busy "Nordic waters" may give several days with dense fog
....

"Roger Long" skrev i en meddelelse
...
On Sep 27, 4:57 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:

Sure... explain away!

I'm not a huge fan of radar...

I thought SF Bay was quite foggy. Am I wrong? Back when I was saying
I could do fine without radar in Maine I would also think, "Now if I
was someplace like SF Bay..."

I looked at the small stand alone radars of size and power draw
appropriate to my boat and learned that Garmin has done a clever thing
(muc has it pains me to say since there is much I hate about Garmin in
general). Their radars do all the signal processing up in the radome
and then turn it into a signal that runs along a standard Cat 5
computer network cable like the one that probably is plugged into the
back of your computer. A clever person could certainly hack software
to make it display on a lap top. Most of their chartplotters accept
this signal. So, for less than $200 more than a stand alone unit, I
could buy a radome and a 3205 chartplotter with charts for the entire
U.S. preloaded. I essentially got a second larger and more
sophisticated chartplotter for free and a color display instead of the
BW of comparably priced stand alone radars. Instrument space is
precious on my small boat so it was also nice not to have yet another
box.

The best thing about the set up is that the radar display can be
overlaid on the chart with the GPS position. This is a huge
improvement in situational awareness. You can figure out almost
instantly whether a blip is a buoy or a vessel as opposed to going
back and forth between a dedicated radar display and a GPS or chart
transferring ranges and bearings. When you are sailing single or
shorthanded, these workload savings reduce fatigue and improve lookout
and attention to other navigational issues.

It's very difficult to run a proper radar plot in close, complex,
waters such as along the coast of Maine. Radars of this size are not
very conducive to plotting directly on the screen although some people
do it. There are enough asterisks scattered around Maine waters that
I'm reluctant to clutter up my screen with marks as well. The chart
overlay is a great plotting substitute. You can see by watching
soundings and other landmarks if a target is just wandering around
randomly and is probably a lobster boat or maintaining a straight
course and make a good estimate of speed. If it is close to
maintaining a constant bearing, it will be pretty obvious. Switching
to full screen radar mode gives your all the standard tools which I
some times use but I have to use them a lot less because I can rule
out most targets as a CPA danger just from the chart display.

There's much more of a learning curve than I expected. I spent the
first week or two thinking "Why did I spend all this money?" I
thought the overlay was pretty useless because it was so hard to find
the little red targets in the clutter. The brain trains. Now, I
little red spot pops up and my brain zeros right in on it from six
feet away at the helm. Working with it a lot in clear weather, I
developed enough trust to do my singlehanded radar running on
autopilot trusting to the advance warning. The straighter course the
autopilot can keep, (at least when I'm standing radar watch) makes the
whole picture clearer. I have the dodger in my hand and it only adds
a couple of boat lengths to the distance in which I can spring to the
controls and do a full stop or 180 turn which is much faster in my
boat. As I said, I wouldn't sail without it now.

--
Roger

Radar - attitude changes
 

On Sep 30, 6:00*pm, "Flemming Torp" fletopkanelbolle2rp.danmark
wrote:

I'm curious - therefore - about your opinion - if any - on the new so
called 'broadband radar' ...

Sorry Torp, I haven't given broadband a thought. When I went to buy
radar last spring, some people said, "This is a terrible time to buy
radar, broadband will be here next year."

I had to say, "Yeah, but I've got to have it for this spring's trip."
I've just tried not to think about it since then and be happy with
what I have.

Hopefully, someone else here can fill us in.

--
Roger Long

Radar - attitude changes
 

Don't know much about it, but it sure looks interesting. Amazing detail if
you believe the marketing hype.

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
On Sep 30, 6:00 pm, "Flemming Torp" fletopkanelbolle2rp.danmark
wrote:

I'm curious - therefore - about your opinion - if any - on the new so
called 'broadband radar' ...

Sorry Torp, I haven't given broadband a thought. When I went to buy
radar last spring, some people said, "This is a terrible time to buy
radar, broadband will be here next year."

I had to say, "Yeah, but I've got to have it for this spring's trip."
I've just tried not to think about it since then and be happy with
what I have.

Hopefully, someone else here can fill us in.

--
Roger Long





--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Radar - attitude changes
 

On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 12:04:33 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 10:12:33 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 23:47:22 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
On Sep 28, 7:06 pm, Jeff wrote:

I've long been a fan of radar and feel its required to cruise Maine,
and
usefuOne problem now is that while in the "old
days" (before low cost radar and loran/gps) the only fools out in the
pea soup were being ultra cautious, tooting horns, going slow etc,
nowadays every rich bozo thinks he can run his sportfish at 30 knots
because the radar and GPS will keep him safe. Almost every year I've
had a close call, the worst case happening a mile off of Cape
Elizabeth.
If you sail in fog, radar is needed now for defense.

An excellent point and a major factor in my decision to install radar
that I didn't mention. Because of this factor, I was finding the fog
routes I considered acceptably safe much more restricted when I
returned to sailing in the post GPS world.


Do you have an AIS receiver? That's something I've been thinking about
getting. For me, the issue is making sure we get out of the way as
necessary. I don't think transmitting would make much diff in the bay,
since
the really big stuff isn't going to be changing course.

When sailing in poor visibility, the greatest danger seems to be from
small recreational power boats zipping around in thick fog as if
visibility was 10 miles. The commercial boats do a pretty good job of
announcing their postion heading and speed, as well as sounding the
appropriate signals. I do the same. Listening intently for even the
slightest noises is probably as important as RADAR, although not a
substitute. You need to be alert in every way at your disposal.
Otherwise, you should stay in port. During the week when most of the
center console captains are at their day jobs, things are a lot safer,
although you can never let your guard down. We also wear PFD's and
clip on in low visibility, no matter how calm conditions might be. Too
many stories of people being thrown overboard and killed in
collisions.



I certainly agree that all tools available should be used. I find lots of
people with their head stuck in their gadget (radar, gps, ais, whatever)
rather than actually looking around and listening.


I don't think you can blame that on the equipment.


I don't and I didn't. I do offer some blame to those marketing the
equipment, since they want people to "rely" on their stuff, when one should
be relying on oneself.

Huh? You think there is some sort of conspiracy to make people not pay
attention when sailing? I rely on my navigation equipment the same
way I rely on my hull not to let the water in. That's what it is there
for.

Radar - attitude changes
 

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 12:04:33 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 10:12:33 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
m...
On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 23:47:22 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
On Sep 28, 7:06 pm, Jeff wrote:

I've long been a fan of radar and feel its required to cruise Maine,
and
usefuOne problem now is that while in the "old
days" (before low cost radar and loran/gps) the only fools out in
the
pea soup were being ultra cautious, tooting horns, going slow etc,
nowadays every rich bozo thinks he can run his sportfish at 30 knots
because the radar and GPS will keep him safe. Almost every year I've
had a close call, the worst case happening a mile off of Cape
Elizabeth.
If you sail in fog, radar is needed now for defense.

An excellent point and a major factor in my decision to install radar
that I didn't mention. Because of this factor, I was finding the fog
routes I considered acceptably safe much more restricted when I
returned to sailing in the post GPS world.


Do you have an AIS receiver? That's something I've been thinking about
getting. For me, the issue is making sure we get out of the way as
necessary. I don't think transmitting would make much diff in the bay,
since
the really big stuff isn't going to be changing course.

When sailing in poor visibility, the greatest danger seems to be from
small recreational power boats zipping around in thick fog as if
visibility was 10 miles. The commercial boats do a pretty good job of
announcing their postion heading and speed, as well as sounding the
appropriate signals. I do the same. Listening intently for even the
slightest noises is probably as important as RADAR, although not a
substitute. You need to be alert in every way at your disposal.
Otherwise, you should stay in port. During the week when most of the
center console captains are at their day jobs, things are a lot safer,
although you can never let your guard down. We also wear PFD's and
clip on in low visibility, no matter how calm conditions might be. Too
many stories of people being thrown overboard and killed in
collisions.



I certainly agree that all tools available should be used. I find lots
of
people with their head stuck in their gadget (radar, gps, ais, whatever)
rather than actually looking around and listening.


I don't think you can blame that on the equipment.


I don't and I didn't. I do offer some blame to those marketing the
equipment, since they want people to "rely" on their stuff, when one
should
be relying on oneself.

Huh? You think there is some sort of conspiracy to make people not pay
attention when sailing? I rely on my navigation equipment the same
way I rely on my hull not to let the water in. That's what it is there
for.

I think they're trying to sell their wares. I'm assuming you check your
seacocks occasionally. Not to many boat manufacturers promote that when
selling the hull.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Radar - attitude changes
 

On Thu, 1 Oct 2009 00:00:30 +0200, "Flemming Torp"
fletopkanelbolle2rp.danmark wrote:

I'm curious - therefore - about your opinion - if any - on the new so
called 'broadband radar' ...

The reports I've gotten have not been all that positive. Apparently
it does what it says on short ranges under a mile but is pretty much
useless on targets more than a mile away. If you already have a good
long range radar it might make a good hi-res supplement for close
quarters.