Rig Types
Hey I have been doing some research on diffrent rig types for the
livaboard my wife and I plan to buy in the next 4 years and I was wondering what some of you reccommend. Or if you had any first hand experience. Some of the rigs we have been looking in to a Cats ketch Yawl or ketch Schooner Junk I would love to get some feed back thanks! |
Rig Types
silverdragon wrote:
Hey I have been doing some research on diffrent rig types for the livaboard my wife and I plan to buy in the next 4 years and I was wondering what some of you reccommend. Or if you had any first hand experience. Some of the rigs we have been looking in to a Cats ketch Yawl or ketch Schooner Junk I would love to get some feed back thanks! Cat or junk rig hands down. Simple, less rigging, less winches easy to sail, great for cruising. G |
Rig Types
"Gordon" wrote in message
m... silverdragon wrote: Hey I have been doing some research on diffrent rig types for the livaboard my wife and I plan to buy in the next 4 years and I was wondering what some of you reccommend. Or if you had any first hand experience. Some of the rigs we have been looking in to a Cats ketch Yawl or ketch Schooner Junk I would love to get some feed back thanks! Cat or junk rig hands down. Simple, less rigging, less winches easy to sail, great for cruising. G I agree with the cat, but the yawl or ketch is also quite viable. The sails are smaller and easier to handle, you get decent performance, and you have more sail configuration options. I don't know enough about junk rigs to comment, but from the pics I've seen, you have a gaff, so that means weight aloft you don't need. A nice configuration is a cutter-rig ketch... lots of combos. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Rig Types
On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 11:29:01 -0700 (PDT), silverdragon
wrote: Hey I have been doing some research on diffrent rig types for the livaboard my wife and I plan to buy in the next 4 years and I was wondering what some of you reccommend. Or if you had any first hand experience. Some of the rigs we have been looking in to a Cats ketch Yawl or ketch Schooner Junk I would love to get some feed back thanks! How big a boat? Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
Rig Types
wrote:
Hey I have been doing some research on diffrent rig types for the livaboard my wife and I plan to buy in the next 4 years and I was wondering what some of you reccommend. Or if you had any first hand experience. Some of the rigs we have been looking in to a Cats ketch Yawl or ketch Schooner Junk I would love to get some feed back thanks! Bruce In Bangkok wrote: How big a boat? Excellent question Another important one that needs to be answered is "What kind of sailing do you intend to do? Each has it's advantages and disadvantages. However, since the boat marktplace is flooded with masthead sloops, that is what 99% buy... it's a cost-effective solution. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Rig Types
On Aug 25, 5:02*pm, Bruce In Bangkok
wrote: On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 11:29:01 -0700 (PDT), silverdragon wrote: Hey I have been doing some research on diffrent rig types for the livaboard my wife and I plan to buy in the next 4 years and I was wondering what some of you reccommend. Or if you had any first hand experience. Some of the rigs we have been looking in to a Cats ketch Yawl or ketch Schooner Junk I would love to get some feed back thanks! How big a boat? Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) Probably around a 40ft, and we will be using it for blue water cruising, ocean crossing and a full time live aboard. Is it viable to buy a ketch and then convert it to a cats ketch? How different is a cats ketch to sail then a sloop or a cutter? -Eric Taylor |
Rig Types
"silverdragon" wrote in message ... Probably around a 40ft, and we will be using it for blue water cruising, ocean crossing and a full time live aboard. Is it viable to buy a ketch and then convert it to a cats ketch? How different is a cats ketch to sail then a sloop or a cutter? -Eric Taylor If you're talking "Cat Ketch," you're basically talking about a Freedom, and a conversion is unlikely to be either wise or affordable. The Freedom rig is unique and the boat is designed for it. Any other ketch, on the other hand, will probably be a traditional stayed rig (few excceptions). I personally prefer a ketch, but have always had a soft spot in my heart (and possibly my head) for the modern Junk rig, preferably in either ketch or schooner configuration. The two-masted rig gives a lot of options in sail and sail balance that is difficult or impossible to achieve with a single-masted rig. Of course, every boat is a compromise, and the ketch and schooner rigs are usually less weatherly than sloops. If you can sail within 30 degrees of the wind, you're doing well. Works for me. -- KLC Lewis WISCONSIN Where It's So Cool Outside, Nobody Stays Indoors Napping www.KLCLewisStudios.com |
Rig Types
Look at a WHITBY 42. They are a ketch rig..
silverdragon wrote: On Aug 25, 5:02 pm, Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 11:29:01 -0700 (PDT), silverdragon wrote: Hey I have been doing some research on diffrent rig types for the livaboard my wife and I plan to buy in the next 4 years and I was wondering what some of you reccommend. Or if you had any first hand experience. Some of the rigs we have been looking in to a Cats ketch Yawl or ketch Schooner Junk I would love to get some feed back thanks! How big a boat? Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) Probably around a 40ft, and we will be using it for blue water cruising, ocean crossing and a full time live aboard. Is it viable to buy a ketch and then convert it to a cats ketch? How different is a cats ketch to sail then a sloop or a cutter? -Eric Taylor |
Rig Types
silverdragon wrote:
Hey I have been doing some research on diffrent rig types for the livaboard my wife and I plan to buy in the next 4 years and I was wondering what some of you reccommend. Or if you had any first hand experience. Some of the rigs we have been looking in to a Cats ketch Yawl or ketch Schooner Junk I would love to get some feed back thanks! What do you sail now? |
Rig Types
"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
... In a 40 ft boat, you're talking about small sails in any configuration. Any multi-mast configuration will not point well because the mizzen is masked by the main. Off the wind, no problem, but close to the wind is where the sloop has the hands down advantage. There is only so much righting moment and if you share that across multiple masts and one mast is effectively disabled by the main, serious sail area and close haul drive is sacrificed. Additionally, 2 masts require more sails. Sails need sail bags and sail bags need storage space. With a 40' boat, storage space is at a premium for liveaboard use. That size is great for a vacation, but as a permanent home, many creature comforts will have to be sacrificed and your dream soon gets old. You are in the dream stage now where all you can see is the bow wave in crystal clear waters. You have no idea how much **** you end up carrying and the frustration that sets in when you can't carry more. Add to that, the misery of carrying your dirty laundry through the rain to the nearest Laundromat and this idealistic scenario you now envisage goes to hell in a hand basket. You will need a bigger boat if your dream is to survive and they don't come cheap. Steve Interesting perspective. I tend to agree with the space limitations, although it really depends on the 40-footer. Many people sail a ketch with missen and jib, and they don't even bother with the main. The sail size on a sloop, at least for the main, is usually larger than a ketch of similar size, but not grossly different, again, depending on the boat. You do have more sail options, perhaps more easily attained with a ketch/yawl. There's more weight in the wrong place and you can't sail up wind as well. Those instances should be kept to a minimum anyway to enhance crew rest. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Rig Types
"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message ... In a 40 ft boat, you're talking about small sails in any configuration. Any multi-mast configuration will not point well because the mizzen is masked by the main. Off the wind, no problem, but close to the wind is where the sloop has the hands down advantage. There is only so much righting moment and if you share that across multiple masts and one mast is effectively disabled by the main, serious sail area and close haul drive is sacrificed. Additionally, 2 masts require more sails. Sails need sail bags and sail bags need storage space. With a 40' boat, storage space is at a premium for liveaboard use. That size is great for a vacation, but as a permanent home, many creature comforts will have to be sacrificed and your dream soon gets old. You are in the dream stage now where all you can see is the bow wave in crystal clear waters. You have no idea how much **** you end up carrying and the frustration that sets in when you can't carry more. Add to that, the misery of carrying your dirty laundry through the rain to the nearest Laundromat and this idealistic scenario you now envisage goes to hell in a hand basket. You will need a bigger boat if your dream is to survive and they don't come cheap. Steve I would have to say that "small" is relative. My CT41 ketch had a main and genny that were big enough that I had to be VERY careful about reefing before the wind picked up too much or they could be too much for me to handle. The sails on my Rawson 30 ketch are small compared with anything larger than a Sabot (well, almost), but they fit her nicely and I can set enough light air sail to keep moving if there's even a breath of wind. As for the main blanketing the mizzen, this doesn't affect pointing ability, only the effectiveness of the mizzen itself when sailing close hauled, and isn't needed anyway. An older narrower-beamed ketch can outpoing many newer sloops of the very beamy variety with wide spreaders and shrouds. Of course, the narrower beam will also translate into less space down below. Everything on a boat is a compromise. -- KLC Lewis WISCONSIN Where It's So Cool Outside, Nobody Stays Indoors Napping www.KLCLewisStudios.com |
Rig Types
In a 40 ft boat, you're talking about small sails in any configuration. Any multi-mast configuration will not point well because
the mizzen is masked by the main. Off the wind, no problem, but close to the wind is where the sloop has the hands down advantage. There is only so much righting moment and if you share that across multiple masts and one mast is effectively disabled by the main, serious sail area and close haul drive is sacrificed. Additionally, 2 masts require more sails. Sails need sail bags and sail bags need storage space. With a 40' boat, storage space is at a premium for liveaboard use. That size is great for a vacation, but as a permanent home, many creature comforts will have to be sacrificed and your dream soon gets old. You are in the dream stage now where all you can see is the bow wave in crystal clear waters. You have no idea how much **** you end up carrying and the frustration that sets in when you can't carry more. Add to that, the misery of carrying your dirty laundry through the rain to the nearest Laundromat and this idealistic scenario you now envisage goes to hell in a hand basket. You will need a bigger boat if your dream is to survive and they don't come cheap. Steve "silverdragon" wrote in message ... Hey I have been doing some research on diffrent rig types for the livaboard my wife and I plan to buy in the next 4 years and I was wondering what some of you reccommend. Or if you had any first hand experience. Some of the rigs we have been looking in to a Cats ketch Yawl or ketch Schooner Junk I would love to get some feed back thanks! |
Rig Types
On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 11:01:16 -0700 (PDT), silverdragon
wrote: On Aug 25, 5:02*pm, Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 11:29:01 -0700 (PDT), silverdragon wrote: Hey I have been doing some research on diffrent rig types for the livaboard my wife and I plan to buy in the next 4 years and I was wondering what some of you reccommend. Or if you had any first hand experience. Some of the rigs we have been looking in to a Cats ketch Yawl or ketch Schooner Junk I would love to get some feed back thanks! How big a boat? Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) Probably around a 40ft, and we will be using it for blue water cruising, ocean crossing and a full time live aboard. Is it viable to buy a ketch and then convert it to a cats ketch? How different is a cats ketch to sail then a sloop or a cutter? -Eric Taylor If you buy a specific rigged boat and then decide to change the rig you are talking about some fairly extensive modification. changing to a Cat Ketch would likely entail moving one or both masts. Which would entail possible modification of the hull to support the mast, relocation of chain plates, possible added reinforcement of the hull to attach the chain plates, and so on. A logical question would be, since most of the common rigs have sailed the oceans with, apparently equal success, what would be the advantage of modifying a perfectly seaworthy boat into what might turn out to be a miserable mismatched monstrosity? Given that the mast head sloop, or 3/4 rig are probably the most commonly seen smaller boat one might give some thought to why... And to give additional thought to what advantage a different type of rig might have? If it were me and I have lived aboard for more then ten years, I would give much more thought to the hull type. Cat or mono hull; center or aft cockpit; location of hatches and ports, etc. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
Rig Types
On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 22:22:26 -0700, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote: In a 40 ft boat, you're talking about small sails in any configuration. Any multi-mast configuration will not point well because the mizzen is masked by the main. Off the wind, no problem, but close to the wind is where the sloop has the hands down advantage. There is only so much righting moment and if you share that across multiple masts and one mast is effectively disabled by the main, serious sail area and close haul drive is sacrificed. Additionally, 2 masts require more sails. Sails need sail bags and sail bags need storage space. With a 40' boat, storage space is at a premium for liveaboard use. That size is great for a vacation, but as a permanent home, many creature comforts will have to be sacrificed and your dream soon gets old. Steve, must you always play devil's advocate? Big / Small is in the eye of the beholder. In our cruising live-aboard life we've run into all kinds of people and boats. I guess the bottom of the line was a very happy couple with two pre-teen kids that lived and cruised on a 24-footer. They said they wouldn't have a bigger boat if someone gave it to them. They cited the extra costs involved (it seems cost goes up by the cube of the LOA). The other end of the spectrum was a young couple on a 80-foot power boat. They were looking at a 95-footer because they needed more room. I'd say we met over 100 full time cruisers / live-aboards and about half, if not more, were under 30-feet. Very few were over 40-feet. Our current home is 'Valkyrie', a Pearson Rhodes 41 yawl. It's "lean" and probably translates more to a "normal" 33-footer re living space. We have not sacrificed any creature comforts. We have a king size berth, shower for 2, HD TV, well equipped galley with fridge and feezer, etc. We all gripe about stowage space and all wish we had more. This was true when we cruised for a year aboard a 22-footer, a couple months aboard a 52-footer, 3 years aboard a 35-footer and now. You go with what you can afford and what feels right. Sometimes I wish home was a 30-footer for simpler and less expensive. Steve also wrote: You are in the dream stage now where all you can see is the bow wave in crystal clear waters. You have no idea how much **** you end up carrying and the frustration that sets in when you can't carry more. Add to that, the misery of carrying your dirty laundry through the rain to the nearest Laundromat and this idealistic scenario you now envisage goes to hell in a hand basket. You will need a bigger boat if your dream is to survive and they don't come cheap. Oh come on. I will agree that many wind up carting a load of what's really junk. We have two basic rules in that regard. 1 - If there's no place to put it out of the way, it goes. No junk piled up on settees, etc. 2 - With the exception of engine parts, rigging spares, sails, that sort of stuff, if it hasn't been used in 6 months, it goes. Many do find it difficult to simplify in that regard. Most learn after a while, but some never do. We've been aboard boats where you have to literaly crawl over piles of crap. Some of these boats met your definition of big enough. Uh, Steve... Why not wait until it quits raining to do the laundry? BTW, we do have a washing machine of sorts on board. It's a neat bucket like thing with a motor to agitate the clothes. A plumber's helper and a 5-gallon bucket does just as well with a bit more effort. Heck, we even have a "dryer" - it's a clothes line reel mounted under the hardtop. I think a "dream is to survive" is all wrong. We're living our "dream to enjoy life" aboard our floating home. To finally get to the question of the original poster. All rigs work almost equally well. Some have an advantage under certain conditions, others have the advantage under other conditions. If I had the pick of anything I wanted, I'd go with a ketch for two reasons. It's handy for sailing under jib and mizzen when it's blowing and the mizzen can be used at anchor in a current to keep pointed into the wind and waves, preferably with a mizzen "anchor" sail. I did find that unless the wind was +/- 20 deg or so from abeam it wasn't worth it to hoist the mizzen. But then, is it easier to hoist the mizzen on that windy day or to reef the main? Having said that, it really isn't a big deal. 'Valkyrie' is a yawl and the mizzen is used only as a "pole" for the TV antenna, wind generator and some of the solar panels. Part of the reason is the mizzen was apparently dismasted during her racing career and re-welded back together. There's also some pretty bad dings a few feet above deck. I really don't trust the integrity. But the main reason is a yawl is a pain in the butt. You wind up playing monkey a lot since the boom extends out way past the stern. Add to that she has a pair of running backstays that have to be handled. So we're really a sloop with 20 sq. ft. less sail area than the "factory" sloop. While there are junk and cat advocates I don't really care for either rig. Junk rigs are very, very easy to handle with a good winch, but those I've come across do very poorly to windward. Cats seem to be a bit on the slow side and have a huge sail to handle compared to the other rigs. That "slot" between the jib and main makes a big difference. Of course, this is all my opinion and applies only to me. It's based on only one example each of those rigs. Everybody complains that now most makes of cars seem to look the same. There's a reason for that. The laws of aerodynamics dictate the shapes to get the best gas mileage. I think it's probably the same reason the vast majority of sailboats are sloops. It's relatively simple and it works well. Rick |
Rig Types
On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 08:33:22 -0500, Rick Morel
wrote: Cats seem to be a bit on the slow side and have a huge sail to handle compared to the other rigs One of the first boats I ever sailed was a C scow. Cat rigged, running back stays. There has never been a slow scow. Casady |
Rig Types
"Rick Morel" wrote in message ... On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 22:22:26 -0700, "Steve Lusardi" wrote: In a 40 ft boat, you're talking about small sails in any configuration. Any multi-mast configuration will not point well because the mizzen is masked by the main. Off the wind, no problem, but close to the wind is where the sloop has the hands down advantage. There is only so much righting moment and if you share that across multiple masts and one mast is effectively disabled by the main, serious sail area and close haul drive is sacrificed. Additionally, 2 masts require more sails. Sails need sail bags and sail bags need storage space. With a 40' boat, storage space is at a premium for liveaboard use. That size is great for a vacation, but as a permanent home, many creature comforts will have to be sacrificed and your dream soon gets old. Steve, must you always play devil's advocate? Big / Small is in the eye of the beholder. In our cruising live-aboard life we've run into all kinds of people and boats. I guess the bottom of the line was a very happy couple with two pre-teen kids that lived and cruised on a 24-footer. They said they wouldn't have a bigger boat if someone gave it to them. They cited the extra costs involved (it seems cost goes up by the cube of the LOA). The other end of the spectrum was a young couple on a 80-foot power boat. They were looking at a 95-footer because they needed more room. I'd say we met over 100 full time cruisers / live-aboards and about half, if not more, were under 30-feet. Very few were over 40-feet. Our current home is 'Valkyrie', a Pearson Rhodes 41 yawl. It's "lean" and probably translates more to a "normal" 33-footer re living space. We have not sacrificed any creature comforts. We have a king size berth, shower for 2, HD TV, well equipped galley with fridge and feezer, etc. We all gripe about stowage space and all wish we had more. This was true when we cruised for a year aboard a 22-footer, a couple months aboard a 52-footer, 3 years aboard a 35-footer and now. You go with what you can afford and what feels right. Sometimes I wish home was a 30-footer for simpler and less expensive. Steve also wrote: You are in the dream stage now where all you can see is the bow wave in crystal clear waters. You have no idea how much **** you end up carrying and the frustration that sets in when you can't carry more. Add to that, the misery of carrying your dirty laundry through the rain to the nearest Laundromat and this idealistic scenario you now envisage goes to hell in a hand basket. You will need a bigger boat if your dream is to survive and they don't come cheap. Oh come on. I will agree that many wind up carting a load of what's really junk. We have two basic rules in that regard. 1 - If there's no place to put it out of the way, it goes. No junk piled up on settees, etc. 2 - With the exception of engine parts, rigging spares, sails, that sort of stuff, if it hasn't been used in 6 months, it goes. Many do find it difficult to simplify in that regard. Most learn after a while, but some never do. We've been aboard boats where you have to literaly crawl over piles of crap. Some of these boats met your definition of big enough. Uh, Steve... Why not wait until it quits raining to do the laundry? BTW, we do have a washing machine of sorts on board. It's a neat bucket like thing with a motor to agitate the clothes. A plumber's helper and a 5-gallon bucket does just as well with a bit more effort. Heck, we even have a "dryer" - it's a clothes line reel mounted under the hardtop. I think a "dream is to survive" is all wrong. We're living our "dream to enjoy life" aboard our floating home. To finally get to the question of the original poster. All rigs work almost equally well. Some have an advantage under certain conditions, others have the advantage under other conditions. If I had the pick of anything I wanted, I'd go with a ketch for two reasons. It's handy for sailing under jib and mizzen when it's blowing and the mizzen can be used at anchor in a current to keep pointed into the wind and waves, preferably with a mizzen "anchor" sail. I did find that unless the wind was +/- 20 deg or so from abeam it wasn't worth it to hoist the mizzen. But then, is it easier to hoist the mizzen on that windy day or to reef the main? Having said that, it really isn't a big deal. 'Valkyrie' is a yawl and the mizzen is used only as a "pole" for the TV antenna, wind generator and some of the solar panels. Part of the reason is the mizzen was apparently dismasted during her racing career and re-welded back together. There's also some pretty bad dings a few feet above deck. I really don't trust the integrity. But the main reason is a yawl is a pain in the butt. You wind up playing monkey a lot since the boom extends out way past the stern. Add to that she has a pair of running backstays that have to be handled. So we're really a sloop with 20 sq. ft. less sail area than the "factory" sloop. While there are junk and cat advocates I don't really care for either rig. Junk rigs are very, very easy to handle with a good winch, but those I've come across do very poorly to windward. Cats seem to be a bit on the slow side and have a huge sail to handle compared to the other rigs. That "slot" between the jib and main makes a big difference. Of course, this is all my opinion and applies only to me. It's based on only one example each of those rigs. Everybody complains that now most makes of cars seem to look the same. There's a reason for that. The laws of aerodynamics dictate the shapes to get the best gas mileage. I think it's probably the same reason the vast majority of sailboats are sloops. It's relatively simple and it works well. Rick I sail on a 72ft LOA staysail ketch, far too big for 2 to sail, although we can manage with 3 up. With the extra forestay, and runners, we can carry the whole lot in up to 30 knots apparent wind when closehauled, but handling the sails is beyond 2 persons. We have a powerful autohelm and that allows us reduce canvas fairly quickly when shorthanded. I would say 45-foot would be the max. for a man and wife team. We also have powered everything, including the jib roller reefing and main halyard hoist. The huge accomodation makes the boat ideal as a liveaboard, even for just 2 souls. Your wife would love the freezer, big enough for a whole cow! You simply have to compromise when it comes to the sailing bit, and go for something you can both handle. I love the staysail ketch rig, with it's many configurations for different wind stengths and points of sailing. Dennis. |
Rig Types
On Aug 27, 1:22*am, "Steve Lusardi" wrote:
In a 40 ft boat, you're talking about small sails in any configuration. That's relative. It's a function of gear & conditions. If you're sweating over stock (undersized) winches & a poor deck layout, a 30-footer will have sails that seem impossibly big. You are in the dream stage now where all you can see is the bow wave in crystal clear waters. You have no idea how much **** you end up carrying and the frustration that sets in when you can't carry more. Add to that, the misery of carrying your dirty laundry through the rain to the nearest Laundromat and this idealistic scenario you now envisage goes to hell in a hand basket. You will need a bigger boat if your dream is to survive and they don't come cheap. 1st of all, not everybody wants/needs a "McMansion On The Blue" so they can take it all with them. 2nd there are 40 footers and then there are 40 footers. Displacment is a much better guide to 'size' of a vessel than length. It's also true that a liveaboard cruiser must be a different proposition than a part-time cruiser or vacation sailer. You need mor spare parts & tools, a better galley & head, fewer bunks. Personally, I have seen few cruising boats that had enough room for books. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:39 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 BoatBanter.com