Batteries, again, sorry
 

On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 08:22:29 -0700, wrote:



snip

Now trapped in a high pressure environment, at some point, the bacteria
explodes, releasing its internal load of really small toxins onto the
surface of the membrane where it can, because of its tiny size crude
molecules pass through the membrane with the H2O, contaminating the
outlet water. The key, I'm told, is the high pressure, which rips many
biologicals apart into tiny pieces. I don't see why this is not a
possible scenario and a source of possible sickness for the drinkers.

Doesn't happen. The bacteria normally is not "trapped". The little
bugger is spun around and bounced around, then spit out of the reject
line.

That's *one* possibility of course, but with millions of opportunities,
over time, many of the little buggers do get "caught".

Okay, I guess I took too far a stance in the opposite direction.
Agreed that many will get "caught" - it's as incorrect to say none
will as it is to say all will. However, the point of the flow rate is
to wash these away.

BTW, the poor little creature would implode, not explode.

Well, considering its fluid filled, how would it implode? It will be
lysed in either event.

Definition of lysed: The disintegration of a cell resulting from
destruction of its membrane by a chemical substance, especially an
antibody or enzyme

I honestly don't see how this would apply, unless it's a normal event
of decomposition? Is that it? I plead ignorance and welcome any info.

Implode/explode. Okay, I'll go with both are impossible because it's
fluid filled. This then negates any effect of high (or low) ambient
pressure in either event, so that argument is thrown out.

snip

Again, all this is flushed out after a few minutes. It's simply a
matter of rejecting the first few minutes of product water.

Dumping the first few minutes of product is always a good idea.

Actually I would say it's a necessary idea. Wait, that reads
sarcastic. I don't mean it that way. I simply mean that I think it's
a necessary part of using an RO system.


Rather than play theory, here's the results of my real world
experience cruising and supplying water from RO:

Last go round I made on average 5 gallons of water per day for 2
years. That's a total of 3,650 gallons of drinking water with 36,500
gallons of reject water passing across the membrane and going
overboard. Very little of that total 40,150 gallons of water was
"clean sea water"; most of it came from bays, a bit from rivers. Some
very silty.

The setup included 2 prefilters - a 20 micron followed by a 5 micron.
The filters were inspected and cleaned frequently, and replaced as
necessary.

The routine, as above, was to reject the first few minutes, test, then
route to the tanks. The first good half gallon or so went into a
container, then this water was run through the system at shutdown.

A biocide treatment was done when the watermaker wasn't going to be
used within a couple days (The total time period was more than 2
years).

The membrane never got an acid and/or alkyline treatment. The reason
is product water flow was basically the same at the end as at the
beginning. I didn't have a flow meter then (I do now on the new boat),
but every two weeks I measured how long it took to fill the shutdown
container to a half gallon mark. It normally varied by a few minutes,
depending on temperture, etc. That one was a 1.5 GPH unit. I now have
a 3.4 GPH.

Now maybe I was lucky, or maybe it was the care and attention I took.
The manufacturer did not recommend the cleaning treatments unless
necessary.

A couple points. I now have a TDS meter, but the best "tester" is a
human. Smell, then taste.

Don't get a too big watermaker. Size it to run at least a couple hours
a day, and run it every day to top off the tank. Membrane fouling and
all that bad stuff happen when they're idle.

It bears repeating. If you don't run it every day, or at least every
two or three days, you will have problems. Do the biocide treatment
(pickle it!) if you're not going to run it for more than a few days.


Thousands (tens of thousands? hundreds of thousands?) of people drink
RO water every day. On boats, ships, islands, Israel, and now
California from processed sewerage water. I guess some get sick from
it. It would be interesting to see what percentage compared to those
that get sick from city water and bottled water.

Rick Morel

Batteries, again, sorry
 

On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 07:59:35 -0500, Rick Morel
wrote:

Implode/explode. Okay, I'll go with both are impossible because it's
fluid filled. This then negates any effect of high (or low) ambient
pressure in either event, so that argument is thrown out.

If you put them in pure water the salts inside the cell will suck in
water. Osmosis. The cell membrane will become tighter, although I
don't know about actually exploding. Depends on the cell, I think.

Casady

Batteries, again, sorry
 

In article ,
says...
wrote in :

What good are units if you can't use them to confuse everyone? :-)

Keith Hughes



"If we knew what we were doing, we couldn't call it research!"
Albert Einstein


Maybe that works for mathematics. For the physical sciences, I would
probably change it a bit:

"If we knew the results of this experiement beforehand, we wouldn't call
it research."

You can know how to set up the experiment without knowing the results
ahead of time.


Mark Borgerson

Batteries, again, sorry
 

In article ,
says...
In article ,
says...
The heck with this battery water stuff. Go Lithium-ion!
http://www.genasun.com/genasunbattery.shtml
Only 5 grand a pop!
Gordon

Which raises a question about battery-driven cars. Those LiH batteries
don't last very long in my laptop computer. How long will they last in a
car given normal neglect?


Hybrid cars are designed to keep the batteries between 70 and 100
percent charged at all times. That won't be so easy with
an all-electric car. However, they may have the system
set up to use less than the full capacity of the batteries to
prolong the life.


Mark Borgerson

Batteries, again, sorry
 

Rick Morel wrote:
On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 08:22:29 -0700, wrote:


snip

snip

BTW, the poor little creature would implode, not explode.
Well, considering its fluid filled, how would it implode? It will be
lysed in either event.

Definition of lysed: The disintegration of a cell resulting from
destruction of its membrane by a chemical substance, especially an
antibody or enzyme

This is *one* definition. There are a number of others, and it is
commonly used for any action, mechanical/chemical/biochemical, that
ruptures the cell wall/membrane releasing the cell contents. It's from
the Greek "lysis" which just means a loosening, setting free, releasing,
or dissolution.


I honestly don't see how this would apply, unless it's a normal event
of decomposition? Is that it? I plead ignorance and welcome any info.

Yes, it is primarily through decomposition. As a biofilm forms on the
membrane (a layer of growing critters), the base, or underlying
organisms get farther and farther away from the source of nutrients (the
water flow) and they die. They then decompose, but instead of getting
flushed away by the water flow, their detritus gets trapped by the layer
of living and dying bugs above them. More food for the growing bugs.

Implode/explode. Okay, I'll go with both are impossible because it's
fluid filled. This then negates any effect of high (or low) ambient
pressure in either event, so that argument is thrown out.
snip
Again, all this is flushed out after a few minutes. It's simply a
matter of rejecting the first few minutes of product water.
Dumping the first few minutes of product is always a good idea.

Actually I would say it's a necessary idea. Wait, that reads
sarcastic. I don't mean it that way. I simply mean that I think it's
a necessary part of using an RO system.

Depends on whether or not you want your first drink of the day
"fortified" or not ;-)



Rather than play theory, here's the results of my real world
experience cruising and supplying water from RO:

Well, it's not theory. It's 25+ years experience with qualifying high
purity water systems, all of which utilized RO as one part of the
purification process.


snip

Don't get a too big watermaker. Size it to run at least a couple hours
a day, and run it every day to top off the tank. Membrane fouling and
all that bad stuff happen when they're idle.

Happens whether they're idle or not, but your point is well taken. My
experience is with units in the 2000-3000gph range, typically running
24/7 with treated city water as feed. Still require routine cleaning,
and biocide treatment. Stagnant water is *always* a bad idea...


It bears repeating. If you don't run it every day, or at least every
two or three days, you will have problems. Do the biocide treatment
(pickle it!) if you're not going to run it for more than a few days.


Thousands (tens of thousands? hundreds of thousands?) of people drink
RO water every day. On boats, ships, islands, Israel, and now
California from processed sewerage water. I guess some get sick from
it. It would be interesting to see what percentage compared to those
that get sick from city water and bottled water.

I doubt you'll find *one* case of sickness from drinking water made from
a properly maintained RO system. But it does bear repeating that RO is
a very good incubator for water bugs if not maintained and operated
sensibly. Not that hard to do as you obviously have experienced.

Keith Hughes

Batteries, again, sorry
 

"Mark Borgerson" wrote in message
g...
In article ,
says...
In article ,
says...
The heck with this battery water stuff. Go Lithium-ion!
http://www.genasun.com/genasunbattery.shtml
Only 5 grand a pop!
Gordon

Which raises a question about battery-driven cars. Those LiH batteries
don't last very long in my laptop computer. How long will they last in a
car given normal neglect?


Hybrid cars are designed to keep the batteries between 70 and 100
percent charged at all times. That won't be so easy with
an all-electric car. However, they may have the system
set up to use less than the full capacity of the batteries to
prolong the life.

Even if the dial on the dashboard is set to indicate 'recharge' when the
battery falls to, say, 70%, people out on the road are going to discover
that you can go on driving for quite a while after this so the battery is
likely to go much lower than planned on many occasions.
Current advertisements suggest battery life will be about 5 years but I
suspect this is optimistic for reason above.
When a large and complex battery needs replacing, say after 5 years, the way
auto spares are priced will ensure that it will be more sensible to buy a
new car and start afresh rather than spending as much as a 5 year old car is
worth in order to renew its battery. And do not forget there is sure to be
an 'environmental' charge to safely dispose of the toxic substances in the
old battery.

Batteries, again, sorry
 

Mark Borgerson wrote in
g:

In article ,
says...
In article ,
says...
The heck with this battery water stuff. Go Lithium-ion!
http://www.genasun.com/genasunbattery.shtml
Only 5 grand a pop!
Gordon

Which raises a question about battery-driven cars. Those LiH
batteries don't last very long in my laptop computer. How long will
they last in a car given normal neglect?


Hybrid cars are designed to keep the batteries between 70 and 100
percent charged at all times. That won't be so easy with
an all-electric car. However, they may have the system
set up to use less than the full capacity of the batteries to
prolong the life.


Mark Borgerson



Lithium-Ion batteries in any product will not discharge past 50% as
there is a built-in nanny IC in ever battery that prevents deep
discharge, which destroys them completely.

Li-Ion, unlike Ni-Cd or Ni-Mh, are FLOAT batteries like your boat. The
less you discharge them, the longer they live. What's killing his
laptop is he leaves it discharged, rather than immediately recharging it
asap, or doesn't recharge it until it's fully run down, the complete
enemy of the Li-Ion battery pack. Continuously discharging a laptop
battery to the point of shutdown....then leaving it in this state for
hours instead of diligently recharging asap just kills them.
REcharging, even if only discharged 5%, asap will make them last the
life of the laptop. Leaving them plugged in with the CHARGED light on
does NOT destroy laptop batteries.

There is one problem with Li-Ion battery packs....out of sync. The
discharge curve stored in the IC gets further and further from the real
charge state as time goes by in all Li-Ion/Li-Polymer battery packs.
So, they APPEAR to hold less and less charge over time. What happens is
the charging state IC's charging curve becomes out-of-sync with battery
reality. To reset this IC, discharge the battery as far as the IC will
allow you to, to the point of automatic shutdown...then, IMMEDIATELY
recharge fully to recharge autoshutdown. Test the battery runtime and
if it's still shorter than it was, repeat this procedure no more than
three times. If it continues to fail, the battery pack is defective and
should be replaced. But, you'll find many "bad batteries" will simply
restore after 1 or 2 "cyclings" to reset the IC's charging curve to
reality.

My Gateway laptop and its original battery pack are 9 years old. The
battery pack has been "reset" about every 6 months since it was new,
recharging in between these resets (above procedure) as soon as possible
no matter how much it was discharged by portable operation. Battery
pack runtime is down around 10-15% in 9 years of operation like this,
which is way beyond its service life. A little care and loving can
really extend a Li-Ion/Li-Polymer battery life.

NEVER RUN DOWN YOUR SELLPHONE BATTERY ANY MORE THAN YOU ABSOLUTELY
MUST...Plug it back in to recharge at every opportunity and stop
bragging about you only have to charge it twice a month. Do the above
deep cycle once every 6 months. You'll never need another battery for
it. Leave it plugged in as much as you can really lengthens its service
life. DEEP CYCLING Li-Ion/Li-Polymer batteries over and over is
suicide...just like a boat battery.


--
-----
Larry
You can tell there's very intelligent life in the Universe
because none of them have ever tried to contact us.....

Batteries, again, sorry
 

"Edgar" wrote in
:

Even if the dial on the dashboard is set to indicate 'recharge' when
the battery falls to, say, 70%, people out on the road are going to
discover that you can go on driving for quite a while after this so
the battery is likely to go much lower than planned on many occasions.
Current advertisements suggest battery life will be about 5 years but
I suspect this is optimistic for reason above.
When a large and complex battery needs replacing, say after 5 years,
the way auto spares are priced will ensure that it will be more
sensible to buy a new car and start afresh rather than spending as
much as a 5 year old car is worth in order to renew its battery. And
do not forget there is sure to be an 'environmental' charge to safely
dispose of the toxic substances in the old battery.



The outrageous cost of hybrid car battery replacement, beyond the car
company's masking warranty, will ensure these cars have near zero resale
value if the used car buyer is staring at a $4000 battery pack replacement
in the face in the used car lot. This must make new car dealers simply
elated. The ultimate used car is one that is worthless at the end of the
payment book. Hybrids will be the ultimate used car.

So, you actually save nothing buying a hybrid exoticar noone but a
$150/hour dealer jacking up parts prices 500% can repair. You either keeps
swapping cars, which is just STUPID at these outrageous car prices.....or
pay thousands and thousands at some point for a battery pack it MUST have!

It's why I'm driving diesel Mercedes cars, even if they weren't running on
free fuel from Chinese restaurants.....(c;]

UPS trucks are diesels for a reason, you know.....None of them are hybrids
or electric. Ask yourself why....

--
-----
Larry
You can tell there's very intelligent life in the Universe
because none of them have ever tried to contact us.....

Batteries, again, sorry
 

Batteries, again, sorry
 

Gogarty wrote in news:20090421-210944.92.0
@Gogarty.news.bway.net:

You make a very good point. Are there not emergency stills that work on
sunlight?




Yes. Only trouble is they are evaporators, not stills. Biology grows
right up to around 180F so these solar evaps are easily contaminated, a
source of nasty bacteria because they are just right inside in temperature.

If you don't see it boil, it just isn't safe.



--
-----
Larry
You can tell there's very intelligent life in the Universe
because none of them have ever tried to contact us.....