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Batteries, again, sorry
Larry wrote:
Gogarty wrote in news:20090421-210944.92.0 @Gogarty.news.bway.net: You make a very good point. Are there not emergency stills that work on sunlight? Yes. Only trouble is they are evaporators, not stills. Biology grows right up to around 180F so these solar evaps are easily contaminated, a source of nasty bacteria because they are just right inside in temperature. If you don't see it boil, it just isn't safe. Well, for most common pathogens, you are pretty much correct. However, there are many spore forming thermophiles whose spores will just laugh at you if you try to kill them with boiling water. Throw in 10 spores of G. stearothermophilus in your boiling water. They'll still be happy to grow up after boiling for 10 hours. And you can throw in 10 B. subtilis/atrophaeus spores in your dry jar and put in the oven at 250°F. They'll still be viable 600 hours later. You'd need 10 minutes at 320°F. Dry heat sterilization is much less effective than moist heat, for most all types of bugs, so jack up the temp when you're trying to sterilize things in an oven. Keith Hughes |
Batteries, again, sorry
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Batteries, again, sorry
Larry wrote:
wrote in : snip My offer still stands to put sterile jars of your RO water and my distiller water on the dock for the summer then we'll both drink what's in it the last day of August..... But, the reality is this is irrelevant as a test, and totally meaningless as any form of standard. The air you breathe is not sterile, nor is the food you eat, nor is the finger you pick your nose with. RO water is *not* guaranteed (nor likely) sterile...so what? The container you store it in, and the glass you drink it from is not sterile either. That's why you chlorinate water that's going to be stored, because it will always have some baseline bioburden, and stored under ideal conditions, without a biocide or preservative, will grow out. When your fecal matter comes out sterile, then you can start worrying about making sure your drinking water is always *sterile* (of course, you'll be dead at that point, but...) I'm sure DoD has some superbugs in their illegal arsenal of biological warfare agents no distiller can kill.....But, when it comes to purifying hose water from the sewage the city delivers as drinking water....Distillers work much better than anything available, including RO. These are not superbugs, or DoD creations. G. stearothermophilus is common in hot springs, and is used routinely for qualification of moist heat sterilization processes. In fact, it won't even grow at all below about 125°F. B. subtilis/atrophaeus is a common bacillus species/subspecies (found in soils, grasses, and even used in gardens as a fungicide), used routinely for qualification of dry heat and gamma irradiation sterilization processes. Neither is considered a human pathogen, which is why they are used as bioindicator (challenge) organisms. Distillation works fine, and other than energy usage, doesn't have too many downsides. But you need a lot more specificity when it comes to defining "better" relative to drinking water production. Tens of millions of people worldwide drink RO water without an issue. High temperature distillate will typically have a lower bioburden *from the still* than RO. But, when coupled with the charcoal bed needed to remove volatile organics that carryover from the distillation process, you have the same type of bioburden issues. Carbon beds are perfect incubators, providing a marvelous substrate, far better than RO membranes in fact, as well as a ready carbon source for bacterial growth. The point is, both systems work fine for drinking water, as long as the process is understood by the user, and the inherent process risks are addressed through routine maintenance and sensible use. Long term storage of water, without a suitable growth inhibitor, is just bad practice irrespective of the purification process used. And I *still* say you must have been bitten by an RO unit as a child... :-) Keith Hughes |
Batteries, again, sorry
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Batteries, again, sorry
|
Batteries, again, sorry
"Larry" wrote in message
... wrote in : Tens of millions of people worldwide drink RO water without an issue. Tens of millions of people drink lake water, too, "without an issue". But, I don't think we're being honest with any of them over the LONG TERM what these pathogens will do to them over time..... -- ----- Larry You can tell there's very intelligent life in the Universe because none of them have ever tried to contact us..... No one gets out alive. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Batteries, again, sorry
On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 01:02:50 +0000, Larry wrote:
wrote in : Tens of millions of people worldwide drink RO water without an issue. Tens of millions of people drink lake water, too, "without an issue". But, I don't think we're being honest with any of them over the LONG TERM what these pathogens will do to them over time..... I have to wonder about what was in the water that YOU drank. |
Batteries, again, sorry
Hi, Wilbur,
You have a big problem, Skippy. The problem is you are trying to run what amounts to the average size house ashore on batteries. Considering your total power usage you need a battery bank of at least 20 (yes, I said TWENTY) of those Trojan deep cycle six-volt batteries. Then you need a separate battery bank of at least 2 heavy duty cranking batteries for your starter. You should do either of three things. 1) continue to be an energy hog and plan on running your diesel with heavy duty alternator for at least 8 hours a day to properly charge the above suggested battery bank. 2) invest in an 8KW diesel variable output genset and run it 24/7 and reduce the size of the suggested battery bank by a factor of five. 3) get rid of 80% of the crap in your boat that runs on electricity that you don't need anyway and start acting like a sensible cruiser and have a battery bank of 4 Trojans plus two starter batteries and charge them using photovoltaics (400 watts worth) plus wind generator and stick to using no more electricity per day than these input. Wilbur Hubbard We have 880 AH, which does us very well. In a tropical envrionment, for which the system was designed, the current 370W solar and a single KISS wind will keep us up to full charge. Here in lesser ideal situations, occasionally we run the Honda through the shorepower link to make the 70A inverter-charger run. For the next couple of months or so we'll be at a dock, and, of course, that all will become moot.. Virtually everything other than miscellaneous small chargers (spotlight, toothbrushes, coffee grinder, and a computer flatscreen - more on which below) is 12 V. When I find a suitable monitor which will run on ship power, I'll replace the one I have and the entire computer setup will be 12V. If you look in the archives (or I could perhaps repost it) I put up a very extensive look at everything we had aboard, and the anticipated usage. I'll add more solar when we do the hardtop, but for now, the system works very well. And we have a 9* freezer and 33* reefer - all the comforts of home, which our boat is, and, now, having made landfall, can say conclusively that it suits us much better than anything we've been reintroduced to ashore, other than the unlimited water and drying for laundry. Meanwhile, the reason we're ashore is for Lydia's grandson's open heart surgery, from which he comes home today. Prayers appreciated... L8R Skip and crew -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog The Society for the Preservation of Tithesis commends your ebriated and scrutible use of delible and defatigable, which are gainly, sipid and couth. We are gruntled and consolate that you have the ertia and eptitude to choose such putably pensible tithesis, which we parage. Stamp out Sesquipedalianism |
Batteries, again, sorry
Larry wrote:
wrote in : Tens of millions of people worldwide drink RO water without an issue. Tens of millions of people drink lake water, too, "without an issue". But, I don't think we're being honest with any of them over the LONG TERM what these pathogens will do to them over time..... You're assuming that RO water *has* pathogens in it. Lake water typically does. But the fact that so many do drink lake water "without an issue" gives you a very good sense of the *scale* of the problem you're so concerned with. As a practical matter, very few bacteria present any problem at all in the stomach unless their population is very high, and a well maintained RO systems generate very low bioburden permeate. Keith Hughes |
Batteries, again, sorry
Capt. JG wrote: "Larry" wrote in message ... wrote in : Tens of millions of people worldwide drink RO water without an issue. Tens of millions of people drink lake water, too, "without an issue". But, I don't think we're being honest with any of them over the LONG TERM what these pathogens will do to them over time..... -- ----- Larry You can tell there's very intelligent life in the Universe because none of them have ever tried to contact us..... No one gets out alive. Damn! I *had* hoped... Keith Hughes |
Batteries, again, sorry
wrote in
: Larry wrote: wrote in : Tens of millions of people worldwide drink RO water without an issue. Tens of millions of people drink lake water, too, "without an issue". But, I don't think we're being honest with any of them over the LONG TERM what these pathogens will do to them over time..... You're assuming that RO water *has* pathogens in it. Lake water typically does. But the fact that so many do drink lake water "without an issue" gives you a very good sense of the *scale* of the problem you're so concerned with. As a practical matter, very few bacteria present any problem at all in the stomach unless their population is very high, and a well maintained RO systems generate very low bioburden permeate. Keith Hughes Man it's hard to get real information from the net in the horrendous NOISE from the RO manufacturers and sellers! There's just all this conflicting BULL****! |
Batteries, again, sorry
wrote in message
... Capt. JG wrote: "Larry" wrote in message ... wrote in : Tens of millions of people worldwide drink RO water without an issue. Tens of millions of people drink lake water, too, "without an issue". But, I don't think we're being honest with any of them over the LONG TERM what these pathogens will do to them over time..... -- ----- Larry You can tell there's very intelligent life in the Universe because none of them have ever tried to contact us..... No one gets out alive. Damn! I *had* hoped... Keith Hughes Who knows... there's always an exception to the rule. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Batteries, again, sorry
Capt. JG wrote:
wrote in message ... Capt. JG wrote: "Larry" wrote in message ... wrote in : Tens of millions of people worldwide drink RO water without an issue. Tens of millions of people drink lake water, too, "without an issue". But, I don't think we're being honest with any of them over the LONG TERM what these pathogens will do to them over time..... -- ----- Larry You can tell there's very intelligent life in the Universe because none of them have ever tried to contact us..... No one gets out alive. Damn! I *had* hoped... Keith Hughes Who knows... there's always an exception to the rule. Two, so far, but they are few and far between... |
Batteries, again, sorry
Larry wrote:
wrote in : Larry wrote: wrote in : Tens of millions of people worldwide drink RO water without an issue. Tens of millions of people drink lake water, too, "without an issue". But, I don't think we're being honest with any of them over the LONG TERM what these pathogens will do to them over time..... You're assuming that RO water *has* pathogens in it. Lake water typically does. But the fact that so many do drink lake water "without an issue" gives you a very good sense of the *scale* of the problem you're so concerned with. As a practical matter, very few bacteria present any problem at all in the stomach unless their population is very high, and a well maintained RO systems generate very low bioburden permeate. Keith Hughes Man it's hard to get real information from the net in the horrendous NOISE from the RO manufacturers and sellers! There's just all this conflicting BULL****! In the last five years or so, the net has become nothing but... bull**** and stale links. |
Batteries, again, sorry
Larry wrote:
wrote in : Larry wrote: wrote in : Tens of millions of people worldwide drink RO water without an issue. Tens of millions of people drink lake water, too, "without an issue". But, I don't think we're being honest with any of them over the LONG TERM what these pathogens will do to them over time..... You're assuming that RO water *has* pathogens in it. Lake water typically does. But the fact that so many do drink lake water "without an issue" gives you a very good sense of the *scale* of the problem you're so concerned with. As a practical matter, very few bacteria present any problem at all in the stomach unless their population is very high, and a well maintained RO systems generate very low bioburden permeate. Keith Hughes Man it's hard to get real information from the net in the horrendous NOISE from the RO manufacturers and sellers! There's just all this conflicting BULL****! Can't argue with you there. But I've been looking at micro results from RO, DI, EDI, and distillation systems for over 25 years, and I base my opinions on the data I've seen. I've seen RO systems totally out of control, with bugs out the wazoo, but any system that's minimally maintained doesn't present a problem. Keith Hughes |
Batteries, again, sorry
In article ,
says... wrote in : Larry wrote: wrote in : Tens of millions of people worldwide drink RO water without an issue. Tens of millions of people drink lake water, too, "without an issue". But, I don't think we're being honest with any of them over the LONG TERM what these pathogens will do to them over time..... You're assuming that RO water *has* pathogens in it. Lake water typically does. But the fact that so many do drink lake water "without an issue" gives you a very good sense of the *scale* of the problem you're so concerned with. As a practical matter, very few bacteria present any problem at all in the stomach unless their population is very high, and a well maintained RO systems generate very low bioburden permeate. Keith Hughes Man it's hard to get real information from the net in the horrendous NOISE from the RO manufacturers and sellers! There's just all this conflicting BULL****! When there are conflicting claims, you then have to decide which is BS and which is real. Of course, you may need evidence and experience to decide whether any or all are either BS or truth. Then you have to decide whether your experience is representative or unique. Ah, well, that's why we have the scientific method. Mark Borgerson |
Batteries, again, sorry
On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 10:58:35 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote: Meanwhile, the reason we're ashore is for Lydia's grandson's open heart surgery, from which he comes home today. Prayers appreciated... All the best for a good recovery. That's tough surgery for anyone, let alone a child. |
Batteries, again, sorry
"Flying Pig" wrote in message
... Hi, Wilbur, You have a big problem, Skippy. The problem is you are trying to run what amounts to the average size house ashore on batteries. Considering your total power usage you need a battery bank of at least 20 (yes, I said TWENTY) of those Trojan deep cycle six-volt batteries. Then you need a separate battery bank of at least 2 heavy duty cranking batteries for your starter. You should do either of three things. 1) continue to be an energy hog and plan on running your diesel with heavy duty alternator for at least 8 hours a day to properly charge the above suggested battery bank. 2) invest in an 8KW diesel variable output genset and run it 24/7 and reduce the size of the suggested battery bank by a factor of five. 3) get rid of 80% of the crap in your boat that runs on electricity that you don't need anyway and start acting like a sensible cruiser and have a battery bank of 4 Trojans plus two starter batteries and charge them using photovoltaics (400 watts worth) plus wind generator and stick to using no more electricity per day than these input. Wilbur Hubbard We have 880 AH, which does us very well. In a tropical envrionment, for which the system was designed, the current 370W solar and a single KISS wind will keep us up to full charge. Here in lesser ideal situations, occasionally we run the Honda through the shorepower link to make the 70A inverter-charger run. For the next couple of months or so we'll be at a dock, and, of course, that all will become moot.. Virtually everything other than miscellaneous small chargers (spotlight, toothbrushes, coffee grinder, and a computer flatscreen - more on which below) is 12 V. When I find a suitable monitor which will run on ship power, I'll replace the one I have and the entire computer setup will be 12V. If you look in the archives (or I could perhaps repost it) I put up a very extensive look at everything we had aboard, and the anticipated usage. I'll add more solar when we do the hardtop, but for now, the system works very well. And we have a 9* freezer and 33* reefer - all the comforts of home, which our boat is, and, now, having made landfall, can say conclusively that it suits us much better than anything we've been reintroduced to ashore, other than the unlimited water and drying for laundry. Meanwhile, the reason we're ashore is for Lydia's grandson's open heart surgery, from which he comes home today. Prayers appreciated... L8R Skip and crew -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog The Society for the Preservation of Tithesis commends your ebriated and scrutible use of delible and defatigable, which are gainly, sipid and couth. We are gruntled and consolate that you have the ertia and eptitude to choose such putably pensible tithesis, which we parage. Stamp out Sesquipedalianism Hope all goes well.... -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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