wrote:
On Mon, 09 Mar 2009 15:41:28 -0400, Marty wrote:


So, hopefully, Dave can try and keep up.

Cheers
Martin

Not going to happen. I always love the "if you don't understand my
poorly thought out flawed argument, it's because it's just too much for
you" position. But it is fun to see that when you poke him in the
forehead for it, the irony blows right past...

Ah well, the subject line says it all I guess.

Keith

Dave wrote:
On Mon, 09 Mar 2009 08:07:06 -0700, Stephen Trapani
said:

wrote:
Stephen Trapani wrote:
I'm sure you would agree that *if* you obtain information that prevents
slaughter of innocents by dunking someone in water a few times, you have
not done something wrong, you have done something good.

No, actually I woould not agree that torture is "good" under any
realistic circumstances.

You can construct all sorts of theoretical justifications; but the
facts are pretty clear... torture does not yield useful or reliable
intel. OTOH it's great if you want to convert a few heretics before
you burn them; but fortunately most of the civilizedworld has out
grown that.



.... I am not arguing that all torture is okay, I'm arguing
that there is such a thing as torture that is okay.

And that's what makes you sick in the head.... or at least not
civilized enough to be making serious decisions that affect the rest
of our society.
Well, by all civilized standards, allowing the slaughter of innocents to
protect the rights of a killer is sick in the head, isn't it? Clearly
you have taken your rationalizing on the issue so far that it makes no
sense anymore. Common with herd mentality issues like this.

The problem with Doug's argument is that it relies upon labeling as a
substitute for thought. Rather than dealing with the specific question you
pose, he labels your proposal "torture," and deems that sufficient to
foreclose further discussion of the policy question.

The technique is very much of a piece with Neal's game of labeling specific
actions "socialism" or "fascism," deeming the label an adequate substitute
for consideration of pluses and minuses of particular actions.

I will credit Doug with possibly adding a substantive claim that
waterboarding doesn't work. I say "possibly" because again rather than
making that specific claim he invokes the T word to claim that "torture"
doesn't work, attempting to sweep the specific action into a much wider net
full of red herrings.

Torture works wonders! Don't you all watch "24"? Sheesh
Gordon

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 09 Mar 2009 13:49:44 -0700, said:

that violates a
constitutional prohibition.

And your law degree is from....?


Probably from the same place you got yours - out of a Crackerjack box?

Wilbur Hubbard

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 09 Mar 2009 21:01:14 +0000, Gordon said:

Torture works wonders! Don't you all watch "24"? Sheesh

Never heard of it. I tend to get my entertainment from those old fashioned
things where you have to turn the pages.


They still publish "Playboy" magazine?

Wilbur Hubbard

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 12:23:48 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
On 9 Mar 2009 13:57:01 -0500, Dave wrote:

On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 11:27:23 -0700, "Capt. JG"
said:

While you may personally agree with this approach, it is
nevertheless antithetical to the US constitution.

Sigh...went right over your head too, eh.


Sigh...arguing against reality is a tough sell unless you're a
preacher,
eh.

The careful reader would have noted that I haven't expressed any view as
to
whether waterboarding has produced useful information. I have simply
observed that trying to stick the generic label "torture" on the
procedure
doesn't advance the ball toward resolving the fact question.

Unfortunately there seem to be few careful readers present. Else I
wouldn't
have to provide the Cliff Notes.

Waterboarding was prosecuted as torture and as a war crime by the
United States Government.

The "Guvmint" has already established that it's torture, Dave.

And, it's well-documented that it doesn't work.

Well, it does work, but not at all in the way intended.



You're right! It works against those who do the torturing.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 17:06:47 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
said:

Probably from the same place you got yours - out of a Crackerjack box?

Hey Neal, why don't you regale us again with how you tried that jaywalking
case?


It was a moving traffic violation - not jaywalking. I could have gotten
POINTS on my DL had I been found guilty. It was a serious matter and I
prevailed via my superior understanding of traffic statutes. Even the judge
who was trying his best to side with the Sheriff could find no way to do so
without being in violation of his oath to uphold the law. Too bad YOU
weren't council for the State. Your ass would have been grass, too.

Wilbur Cecil Hubbard

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 17:19:35 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
said:

"Dave" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 09 Mar 2009 21:01:14 +0000, Gordon said:

Torture works wonders! Don't you all watch "24"? Sheesh

Never heard of it. I tend to get my entertainment from those old
fashioned
things where you have to turn the pages.


They still publish "Playboy" magazine?

Dunno. Ask somebody the way to one of those places where they sell books,
magazines and newspapers, and you can look.


I know the way to K-Mart. I get batteries replaced for free there regularly.
But the magazine rack is pathetic. It's gotten completely full of women's
and teenybopper magazines in the last several years. It's really difficult
to find a man's magazine such as Field and Stream or even a sailing magazine
there.

Wilbur Cecil Hubbard

On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 10:19:40 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

Torture doesn't work. It's a fact. Unless you watch 24. Then it works.

WTF?

Casady

"Richard Casady" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 10:19:40 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

Torture doesn't work. It's a fact. Unless you watch 24. Then it works.

WTF?

Casady


You haven't seen the TV psycho drama? Jack Bauer always wins by torturing
someone.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 09 Mar 2009 15:08:12 -0400, said:

Waterboarding was prosecuted as torture and as a war crime by the
United States Government.

A gross distortion. You need to take a look at something beyond those left
wing blogs, Not At All. If you had done so you would have discovered that
your courageous Congress after dithering for several years dealt with the
issue like a hot potato, finally deciding in 2006 to provide retroactive
legal protection to those U.S. personnel who engaged in or directed the
activity.

I will credit Obama with the political guts to step up to the plate and
say
that if a few thousand or a few hundred thousand Americans get killed as a
result of prohibiting the activity, he takes responsibility for that
result.


It's a fact...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...201170_pf.html

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com