Undocumented boat: input on penalties
 

Hi,
I am trying to avoid a costly mistake for someone. The Coast Guard failed
to notify them months ago of problems with documentation and now it looks
like it will take 2-3 months for the Coast Guard to get the papers to them.
So...they of course want to sail!
What are the fines/penalties for having an undocumented boat in
Massachusetts waters?
I assume this would have insurance implications too. Does anybody know?
Thanks,
Karin

Undocumented boat: input on penalties
 

K Pilson wrote:

What are the fines/penalties for having an undocumented boat in
Massachusetts waters?
I assume this would have insurance implications too. Does anybody
know? Thanks,

There are very likely no penalties. Documentation for pleasure boats is
optional and if MA is like other states your friends will already have a
state registration. That aside if the folks at Gettysburg (i.e., the
Documentation Office) are the culprits, or even if this is NOT the case, it
is unlikely that a penalty will be imposed. The $ megabucks/day penalties
relate to large vessels. This is what happens when the same sets of rules
that are applicable to the Exxon Valdez are later applied to 27 foot
sailboats.

Hey, if the morons in Washington are rounding up innocents on the West Coast
for having "almost the right fingerprints" or for enjoying a Mojito in
Havana, I guess anything is possible.


--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.home.comcast.net/

Undocumented boat: input on penalties
 

Don't know about Ma., but in MD, I was offered to buy a MD state sticker
till my documentation came through. Would have needed hull numbers, but was
legal. I saved the $15 and sailed without for a few months. No problems.


--
Scotty
S/V Lisa Marie
Balt. MD USA


"K Pilson" wrote in message
...
Hi,
I am trying to avoid a costly mistake for someone. The Coast Guard failed
to notify them months ago of problems with documentation and now it looks
like it will take 2-3 months for the Coast Guard to get the papers to
them.
So...they of course want to sail!
What are the fines/penalties for having an undocumented boat in
Massachusetts waters?
I assume this would have insurance implications too. Does anybody know?
Thanks,
Karin

Undocumented boat: input on penalties
 

Mass. is one of those rare states like Texas that exempts documented
boats from having to be registered with the state. They just want their
property tax. It would cost $80 to $100 depending on LOA (and maybe a
day standing in line at the DMV) to get legal until the documentation
comes through. OTOH, if you just spent a wad on a new boat, a few more
bucks might not be all that bad to get to use the boat for the summer.

What I wonder about is why it would take 3 months to get papers? Only
thing I can think of is a cloud on the title that has to be cleared up.

Dave wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 17:50:35 GMT, said:


What are the fines/penalties for having an undocumented boat in
Massachusetts waters?


When I needed proof of registration in CT, and the change in documentation
wouldn't come through quickly enough to get the state decal, I simply
registered the boat in CT while applying for new documentation. Then when
the documentation came in it cost about $3 to switch the state registration
to a certificate of decal.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Undocumented boat: input on penalties
 

In Mass its the Sales Tax (5% of the actual transaction) that gets you. There
is also an annual Excise Tax (as there is on cars) but boats tend to be
undervalued. Of course, these taxes must be paid regardless of the
registration/documentation status, but folks with documented boats have been
known to forget to pay.

Although the registration resembles the DMV automobile registration, its
actually handled by the Environmental Police, and there was no wait the last
several times I went there.



"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:3vozc.1072$3W3.148@lakeread04...
Mass. is one of those rare states like Texas that exempts documented
boats from having to be registered with the state. They just want their
property tax. It would cost $80 to $100 depending on LOA (and maybe a
day standing in line at the DMV) to get legal until the documentation
comes through. OTOH, if you just spent a wad on a new boat, a few more
bucks might not be all that bad to get to use the boat for the summer.

What I wonder about is why it would take 3 months to get papers? Only
thing I can think of is a cloud on the title that has to be cleared up.

Dave wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 17:50:35 GMT, said:


What are the fines/penalties for having an undocumented boat in
Massachusetts waters?


When I needed proof of registration in CT, and the change in documentation
wouldn't come through quickly enough to get the state decal, I simply
registered the boat in CT while applying for new documentation. Then when
the documentation came in it cost about $3 to switch the state registration
to a certificate of decal.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Undocumented boat: input on penalties
 

FYI, Texas now require federally registered boats to be registered with the
state. They realized they could pick up on a lot of unpaid sales/use taxes.

Also, the normal time to get ANYTHING from the NVDC is 5-6 months now,
regardless of what they tell you. Privitazation, you know. The only way to
speed things up is to send them a letter saying you're going cruising soon
out of the country. Because of this, I can't see anyone successfully levying
penalties on you... with that type of turnaround time, some folks could
spend their entire boating life waiting on a certificate of documentation,
especially if they change addresses often.

--


Keith
__
Remember, there's always free cheese in a rat trap!
"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:3vozc.1072$3W3.148@lakeread04...
Mass. is one of those rare states like Texas that exempts documented
boats from having to be registered with the state. They just want their
property tax. It would cost $80 to $100 depending on LOA (and maybe a
day standing in line at the DMV) to get legal until the documentation
comes through. OTOH, if you just spent a wad on a new boat, a few more
bucks might not be all that bad to get to use the boat for the summer.

What I wonder about is why it would take 3 months to get papers? Only
thing I can think of is a cloud on the title that has to be cleared up.

Dave wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 17:50:35 GMT, said:


What are the fines/penalties for having an undocumented boat in
Massachusetts waters?


When I needed proof of registration in CT, and the change in
documentation
wouldn't come through quickly enough to get the state decal, I simply
registered the boat in CT while applying for new documentation. Then
when
the documentation came in it cost about $3 to switch the state
registration
to a certificate of decal.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Undocumented boat: input on penalties
 

Karin:

I bought a used and previously documented boat on March 11 of this year.
There was an outstanding lein on the boat from the current owner. There are
at least two steps towards getting a USCG document. The first is paying off
the previous owner's loan and getting the lender to issue a "Satisfaction of
Mortgage" certificate. The latter can take as long as the lender wants to
make it. I have seen this take several months and many phone calls to the
lender to get this done.

Then once the Satisfaction of Mortgage is in hand from the lender, it can
take many months for the USCG to process the application and return your new
document. It has been three months and I still don't have my new document.

But I have also enjoyed my new boat over the last several months. No
responsible law enforcement official and certainly no court is going to fine
you for not being documented- provided you have timely submitted your
application for documentation to the USCG.

I know how to document my own boat (I was a yacht broker for a short period
in my career), but I chose to pay a documentation service precisely for this
reason. They gave me a letter inidcating that documentation has been applied
for and the USCG was processing the application. If I am stopped (and I have
only been stopped once by the USCG in thousands of hours of sailing), I will
show them that letter and they will smile and let me go on my way.

And for the state police, harbor patrol, etc. What they care about is
getting their sales tax. So also keep a receipt for sales tax paid on board.

So, the bottom line is don't worry about it if you have followed the rules.
Enjoy your new boat.

David

Undocumented boat: input on penalties
 

I have been waiting 11 months for my renewal. I had a name change and had to
refile as if I was just buying the boat. I had a loan when I bought the boat
and it was paid off 6 years ago and I have been playing the paper shuffle
with them as they say there was no record of it and there is still a lien
against it. I have a copy of the bill of sale from them referencing the page
and file. I have sent the release from the bank (satisfaction of mortgage)
3 times and it keeps coming back. Wrong form or they can't read the seal
of the notary. I am about to register the boat and tell them what to do
with my doc papers. Calling them on the phone for answers and the standard
reply is, well it is not on my desk, so it must be in work. The first time
they
waited three months to tell me there was still a lien on the boat. Our
wonderful tax dollars at work. Btw, if you are documented in South Carolina,
you do not have to register with the state, but the county nails you for
personal
property tax.

Leanne



"Keith" wrote in message
...
Also, the normal time to get ANYTHING from the NVDC is 5-6 months now,
regardless of what they tell you. Privitazation, you know. The only way to
speed things up is to send them a letter saying you're going cruising soon
out of the country. Because of this, I can't see anyone successfully
levying
penalties on you... with that type of turnaround time, some folks could
spend their entire boating life waiting on a certificate of documentation,
especially if they change addresses often.

Undocumented boat: input on penalties
 

My documentation papers were filed last October and by late March I had
still not gotten my certificate due to the "normal" three month backlog
having been compounded by a missing social security number on the transfer
of ownership form. Wary of our increasingly active local, state, and CG
marine patrols and wanting to be "street legal", I called the Documentation
Center with my sad story. A very efficient and helpful clerk found my
paperwork, and faxed a copy the next day to the local Maryland DNR office
which then issued me a valid state sticker. I'd give very high marks to the
MD and CG office staff, but a failing grade to legislators who are
underfunding traditional coast guard operations, ICW dredging and the like.
I think I'll call my congressman tomorrow . . .

Scott Odell
S/V Itchen


"Scott Vernon" said,
Don't know about Ma., but in MD, I was offered to buy a MD state sticker
till my documentation came through. Would have needed hull numbers, but
was
legal. I saved the $15 and sailed without for a few months. No problems.

Undocumented boat: input on penalties
 

"Scott Odell" wrote
....... I'd give very high marks to the
MD and CG office staff, but a failing grade to legislators who are
underfunding traditional coast guard operations, ICW dredging and the
like.
I think I'll call my congressman tomorrow . . .

I already did, and my Senators and followed up with letters, being careful
to praise the CG and ask that (s)he give them the help and funding they
need. Every boater should do the same.

CG problems go beyond staffing - somebody sold them computer SW designed for
a hospital, not boat management, that compounds their short handedness. Tell
your congressman they need a new one that works more than Iraq needs our
money - and dump the shrub next fall.

Undocumented boat: input on penalties
 

"K Pilson" wrote in message
...
Hi,
I am trying to avoid a costly mistake for someone. The Coast Guard failed
to notify them months ago of problems with documentation and now it looks
like it will take 2-3 months for the Coast Guard to get the papers to
them.
So...they of course want to sail!
What are the fines/penalties for having an undocumented boat in
Massachusetts waters?
I assume this would have insurance implications too. Does anybody know?
Thanks,
Karin

I bought a boat in Puerto Rico in 2000 and all you need to do is keep copies
on board of the forms you sent to the Coast Guard to get your vessel
documented. Unless they've changed the rules in the last 4 years, it's all
that's required. Check the FAQ on their website.

Undocumented boat: input on penalties
 

Keith, I heard the same thing at the beginning of the year but 2 months ago
I walked into the TPWS HQ in Austin and nobody knew anything about it. !!


"Keith" wrote in message
...
FYI, Texas now require federally registered boats to be registered with
the
state. They realized they could pick up on a lot of unpaid sales/use
taxes.

Also, the normal time to get ANYTHING from the NVDC is 5-6 months now,
regardless of what they tell you. Privitazation, you know. The only way to
speed things up is to send them a letter saying you're going cruising soon
out of the country. Because of this, I can't see anyone successfully
levying
penalties on you... with that type of turnaround time, some folks could
spend their entire boating life waiting on a certificate of documentation,
especially if they change addresses often.

--


Keith
__
Remember, there's always free cheese in a rat trap!
"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:3vozc.1072$3W3.148@lakeread04...
Mass. is one of those rare states like Texas that exempts documented
boats from having to be registered with the state. They just want their
property tax. It would cost $80 to $100 depending on LOA (and maybe a
day standing in line at the DMV) to get legal until the documentation
comes through. OTOH, if you just spent a wad on a new boat, a few more
bucks might not be all that bad to get to use the boat for the summer.

What I wonder about is why it would take 3 months to get papers? Only
thing I can think of is a cloud on the title that has to be cleared up.

Dave wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 17:50:35 GMT, said:


What are the fines/penalties for having an undocumented boat in
Massachusetts waters?


When I needed proof of registration in CT, and the change in
documentation
wouldn't come through quickly enough to get the state decal, I simply
registered the boat in CT while applying for new documentation. Then
when
the documentation came in it cost about $3 to switch the state
registration
to a certificate of decal.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Undocumented boat: input on penalties
 

I just visited the TPWD (not TPWS) website and saw that they now have
UPDATED info on this! Ha.

"J.Slater" wrote in message
...
Keith, I heard the same thing at the beginning of the year but 2 months
ago
I walked into the TPWS HQ in Austin and nobody knew anything about it. !!


"Keith" wrote in message
...
FYI, Texas now require federally registered boats to be registered with
the
state. They realized they could pick up on a lot of unpaid sales/use
taxes.

Also, the normal time to get ANYTHING from the NVDC is 5-6 months now,
regardless of what they tell you. Privitazation, you know. The only way
to
speed things up is to send them a letter saying you're going cruising
soon
out of the country. Because of this, I can't see anyone successfully
levying
penalties on you... with that type of turnaround time, some folks could
spend their entire boating life waiting on a certificate of
documentation,
especially if they change addresses often.

--


Keith
__
Remember, there's always free cheese in a rat trap!
"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:3vozc.1072$3W3.148@lakeread04...
Mass. is one of those rare states like Texas that exempts documented
boats from having to be registered with the state. They just want
their
property tax. It would cost $80 to $100 depending on LOA (and maybe a
day standing in line at the DMV) to get legal until the documentation
comes through. OTOH, if you just spent a wad on a new boat, a few
more
bucks might not be all that bad to get to use the boat for the summer.

What I wonder about is why it would take 3 months to get papers? Only
thing I can think of is a cloud on the title that has to be cleared
up.

Dave wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 17:50:35 GMT,
said:


What are the fines/penalties for having an undocumented boat in
Massachusetts waters?


When I needed proof of registration in CT, and the change in
documentation
wouldn't come through quickly enough to get the state decal, I
simply
registered the boat in CT while applying for new documentation. Then
when
the documentation came in it cost about $3 to switch the state
registration
to a certificate of decal.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or
lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

First get the documentation turned in and a receipt. For USCG purposes
that's good because they know they are behind on paperwork. Beyond that
depends on the state. Nevada for example refuses to register a documented
vessel. Washington State doesn't care if it's documented or not they still
register but they call it something else to get around the federal ruling
barring state licensing/registration of federally documented boats. I think
they call it a use permit for state waters or somesuch. However if you have
both do not display the state numbers as the USCG can fine you for that.
I'ts illegal to do so for documented vessels. Check around the rules on
each state's website and ask local people. Do not directly ask the state
especially those like Mass and Cal who are infamous for grubbing money
anyway they can. The local people will know how to handle it the best way.

M.


"Armond Perretta" wrote in message
...
K Pilson wrote:

What are the fines/penalties for having an undocumented boat in
Massachusetts waters?
I assume this would have insurance implications too. Does anybody
know? Thanks,

There are very likely no penalties. Documentation for pleasure boats is
optional and if MA is like other states your friends will already have a
state registration. That aside if the folks at Gettysburg (i.e., the
Documentation Office) are the culprits, or even if this is NOT the case,
it
is unlikely that a penalty will be imposed. The $ megabucks/day penalties
relate to large vessels. This is what happens when the same sets of rules
that are applicable to the Exxon Valdez are later applied to 27 foot
sailboats.

Hey, if the morons in Washington are rounding up innocents on the West
Coast
for having "almost the right fingerprints" or for enjoying a Mojito in
Havana, I guess anything is possible.


--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.home.comcast.net/