"mmc" wrote in message
g.com...
Doesn't pretty much everything that has anything to do with Muslims in
this country promote hatred towards them Jon? From TV and movies to
labeling Obama a Muslim, everything is spun to put them in a bad light.
Could it possibly be that not everything Muslims do and are about is bad
and not everything Christians and Jews do is good?
I know it's really pushing the envelope, but.......



There are a billion and a half Muslims in this world. If the militant
extremists didn't represent only the slightest micro-percentage of them, the
rest of us probably wouldn't be here.

"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
...

"mmc" wrote in message
g.com...
Doesn't pretty much everything that has anything to do with Muslims in
this country promote hatred towards them Jon? From TV and movies to
labeling Obama a Muslim, everything is spun to put them in a bad light.
Could it possibly be that not everything Muslims do and are about is bad
and not everything Christians and Jews do is good?
I know it's really pushing the envelope, but.......



There are a billion and a half Muslims in this world. If the militant
extremists didn't represent only the slightest micro-percentage of them,
the rest of us probably wouldn't be here.

I agree completely. Just as Christians shouldn't be judged by a tiny
minority of wackos, Muslims shouldn't either.

mmc wrote:
"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...
mmc wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 10:12:36 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Dennis Pogson" wrote in message
...
troll **** removed
Nice to know someone has been controlling the money. I had thought it
was
supreme lack of control that dropped us all in this s**t!

Apparently, for all their vast experience, they aren't doing such a
great
job.

Interestingly, this guy posts anonymously, coward that he is. At least
Larry
has the guts to stand up in public.
Yeah, well if you want io go that route, Hitler was probably the most
sincere politician who ever lived.

Larry doesn't have guts. He's a failure in life, and badly needs to
blame it on someone else.

Whether a person is a failure isn't determined by what's in thier bank
account and being able to speak your mind is what this country is
supposed to be about AND what you should be able to do around friends.
Sure you should. But there is a point of being morally wrong enough and
rooting for bad and evil to win against good and innocents, and of trying
to convince others to do so, when one should be considered a failure. And
the sort of vile racism where one wishes the Naziis would have wiped out
an entire race, and rooting for someone else to do so surely crosses that
line, doesn't it?

Have you ever actually read anything Larry wrote saying that? I haven't.

Within the last few weeks he said that he wished the Nazis would have
finished the job. You must have missed that. And I haven't seen any
apologies or retractions from him, so it looks like you are defending
someone you shouldn't be defending, eh?

I'm not an Israel fan and I could give a crap, one way or the other,
about jews, so does that make me a failure too?
Well, if you really don't care about racism and the extermination of
innocents, or are rooting for it to happen, then yes, you are a failure
too. You're not, are you?
I would be if I didn't care about the innocents. Racism and extermination of
innocents happens all over Africa, where is US empathy for those people? Do
we not care because it's "just Africa".

Either you think the US should be more of a policeman to protect
innocents, or less. Here you seem to be saying they should be more. If
so I guess I agree, but if you're saying the US should do less if they
don't do it everywhere, then I disagree. There is a very good reason
they do it more with Israel than most places. Just like there is a very
good reason they are doing it now in Afghanastan, a place where even the
kookiest of conspiracy theorists can't find oil, or Jews ruling the
world, or any other kooky reason to be there besides just doing the
right thing.

Racism and genocide have happened throughout history, all over the world and
in many cases commited in the name of Christianity.

You bet!

As to the definition of who is innocent and who is evil, I'll make that
determination for myself, thanks.

Well, if you make it to exclude, say, one race of children who are
targeted by Muslim extremists, then you are as much of a racist as
Larry. Doesn't sound like you are doing that, so hopefully you want the
extremists stopped as much as I do. And if you take even a brief look at
the form of governments desired by Hamas vs Israel, again, the good guys
aren't hard to determine.

Not that my determination will matter to other, just as thiers doesn't
matter to me.

Of course it matters who we help and who we oppose, even in arguments.

Stephen

mmc wrote:
"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
...
"mmc" wrote in message
g.com...
Doesn't pretty much everything that has anything to do with Muslims in
this country promote hatred towards them Jon? From TV and movies to
labeling Obama a Muslim, everything is spun to put them in a bad light.
Could it possibly be that not everything Muslims do and are about is bad
and not everything Christians and Jews do is good?
I know it's really pushing the envelope, but.......


There are a billion and a half Muslims in this world. If the militant
extremists didn't represent only the slightest micro-percentage of them,
the rest of us probably wouldn't be here.

I agree completely. Just as Christians shouldn't be judged by a tiny
minority of wackos, Muslims shouldn't either.


I agree completely, but we certainly should judge the tiny minority of
wackos and do whatever we can to stop them.

Stephen

"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
news
I agree completely, but we certainly should judge the tiny minority of
wackos and do whatever we can to stop them.

Stephen

And I agree with that as well. The question is, what can we do to stop them?
If they perceive themselves as being attacked by outside forces, they will
also perceive themselves as being righteous in resisting and fighting those
outside forces. But Islam demands that when they are no longer being
attacked, they MUST stop fighting. This doesn't necessarily mean that the
extremists *would* stop fighting, but it does mean that those who continued
in the face of no active enemies would lose virtually all of their support
within the Muslim world. This, then, would put the problem of Islamic
extremists where it belongs -- in the hands of the Faithful.

KLC Lewis wrote:
"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
news
I agree completely, but we certainly should judge the tiny minority of
wackos and do whatever we can to stop them.

Stephen

And I agree with that as well. The question is, what can we do to stop them?

Wipe them off the face of the earth? Make being one of them so
unattractive that no one else wants to be them?

If they perceive themselves as being attacked by outside forces, they will
also perceive themselves as being righteous in resisting and fighting those
outside forces. But Islam demands that when they are no longer being
attacked, they MUST stop fighting. This doesn't necessarily mean that the
extremists *would* stop fighting, but it does mean that those who continued
in the face of no active enemies would lose virtually all of their support
within the Muslim world. This, then, would put the problem of Islamic
extremists where it belongs -- in the hands of the Faithful.

This would work if only they didn't believe they are being attacked just
by the fact of the US and Israels existence. They have said so many
times. Our only out, according to them is for us to convert to Islam.

Stephen

"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...
This would work if only they didn't believe they are being attacked just
by the fact of the US and Israels existence. They have said so many times.
Our only out, according to them is for us to convert to Islam.

Stephen


That is the position of the merest fraction of the militant extremists. Even
amongst the militant extremists, the majority simply want the West out of
their lands.

The West invaded the Middle East for oil. Prior to the early 20th century,
the West had little interest in the Middle East, other than for mutual,
consentual trade. And even in the first half of the 20th century, the money
which oil brought into the Middle East was considered fair compensation for
our presence there. Until Western influence and ideals began to seriously
conflict with core Muslim beliefs.

The militant extremists will always consider Western presence in Muslim
lands to be an occupation of those lands. When we put military might into
those lands, we only further this belief. "We will stop raping you when you
stop resisting." In what sane world does the one being raped not have the
right to resist?

"mmc" wrote in message
g.com...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"mmc" wrote in message
g.com...

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 10:12:36 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Dennis Pogson" wrote in message
. ..
troll **** removed
Nice to know someone has been controlling the money. I had thought it
was
supreme lack of control that dropped us all in this s**t!



Apparently, for all their vast experience, they aren't doing such a
great
job.

Interestingly, this guy posts anonymously, coward that he is. At least
Larry
has the guts to stand up in public.

Yeah, well if you want io go that route, Hitler was probably the most
sincere politician who ever lived.

Larry doesn't have guts. He's a failure in life, and badly needs to
blame it on someone else.

Whether a person is a failure isn't determined by what's in thier bank
account and being able to speak your mind is what this country is
supposed to be about AND what you should be able to do around friends.
I'm not an Israel fan and I could give a crap, one way or the other,
about jews, so does that make me a failure too? I'm sure the christians
would think so. I'm not anti-semetic I just don't care.
I work hard and make sure my family is taken care of. I have a loving
wife and a great kid. I have real friends, some for the past 40 odd
years who don't think I'm a bad guy. I don't have much money but I feel
pretty successful.
Larry is a good guy. He has his own ideas about issues and speaks his
mind and that does not make him a failure. If his stuff bothers you,
don't read it.



There's a big difference between having a view and promoting it. As with
most people, Larry likely has a good side and a bad side. Most of us
learn to keep the bad side in check in public. Promoting racial hatred
isn't the same as speaking your mind with friends. This is a public
forum. It's like yelling fire in a crowded theater.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Doesn't pretty much everything that has anything to do with Muslims in
this country promote hatred towards them Jon? From TV and movies to
labeling Obama a Muslim, everything is spun to put them in a bad light.
Could it possibly be that not everything Muslims do and are about is bad
and not everything Christians and Jews do is good?
I know it's really pushing the envelope, but.......




Hard to argue... terrorist = muslim, which is bs.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

KLC Lewis wrote:
"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...
This would work if only they didn't believe they are being attacked just
by the fact of the US and Israels existence. They have said so many times.
Our only out, according to them is for us to convert to Islam.

Stephen


That is the position of the merest fraction of the militant extremists. Even
amongst the militant extremists, the majority simply want the West out of
their lands.

I don't know what fraction it is, but the ones who demand we convert to
Islam are the ones we are fighting. Bin Laden said exactly that in one
of his last messages. As far as getting out of their lands, its not just
us they want out, it's free government. Tyrannical philosophies like
theirs require tyrannical governments in order to survive and they know
it. Opposing arguments (free speech) can't be allowed because they will
result in people realizing the truth of their oppression, so almost all
freedom must be stamped out.

The West invaded the Middle East for oil. Prior to the early 20th century,
the West had little interest in the Middle East, other than for mutual,
consentual trade. And even in the first half of the 20th century, the money
which oil brought into the Middle East was considered fair compensation for
our presence there. Until Western influence and ideals began to seriously
conflict with core Muslim beliefs.

Well I already anticipated this argument and addressed it before you
said it. Why did we invade Afghanistan then? And when you realize you
can't answer that, tag on the follow up question: Why are we still there
sacrificing American lives for the sake of establishing a democracy?

The militant extremists will always consider Western presence in Muslim
lands to be an occupation of those lands. When we put military might into
those lands, we only further this belief. "We will stop raping you when you
stop resisting." In what sane world does the one being raped not have the
right to resist?

Of course, most of the Afghanies hate the Taliban. They know the
brutality that comes with them. Most Afghanies want a democracy and want
the US to succeed in helping them establish that. The Taliban strategy
is the same one all Muslim extremists are using nowadays. Bomb, kill and
terrorize so many innocent citizens that they wish for the relative
safety of the brutal Taliban government instead of terrorism. And you
think the US should go ahead and let that happen? Weren't you just
saying that you agreed the US should stop them?

Stephen

"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...
KLC Lewis wrote:
The West invaded the Middle East for oil. Prior to the early 20th
century, the West had little interest in the Middle East, other than for
mutual, consentual trade. And even in the first half of the 20th century,
the money which oil brought into the Middle East was considered fair
compensation for our presence there. Until Western influence and ideals
began to seriously conflict with core Muslim beliefs.

Well I already anticipated this argument and addressed it before you said
it. Why did we invade Afghanistan then? And when you realize you can't
answer that, tag on the follow up question: Why are we still there
sacrificing American lives for the sake of establishing a democracy?

First, you reduce the equation too far when you assume that Afghanistan has
nothing to do with oil (or more precisely, power). The Trans-Afghanistan
Pipeline project has a great deal to do with America's interest in that
particular country. But the fact is that our original foray into Afghanistan
was viewed by virtually the entire world, including most of the Muslim
world, as being righteous. And as a matter of fact, I supported it until
that idiot Bush declared victory after three months and pulled out all but a
relative handful of troops and invaded Iraq.

That said, it is impossible for any occupying force to hold Afghanistan. The
more enemies we make there, the greater the insurgency will grow, to the
point that no amount of force will be able to hold it.


The militant extremists will always consider Western presence in Muslim
lands to be an occupation of those lands. When we put military might into
those lands, we only further this belief. "We will stop raping you when
you stop resisting." In what sane world does the one being raped not have
the right to resist?

Of course, most of the Afghanies hate the Taliban. They know the brutality
that comes with them. Most Afghanies want a democracy and want the US to
succeed in helping them establish that. The Taliban strategy is the same
one all Muslim extremists are using nowadays. Bomb, kill and terrorize so
many innocent citizens that they wish for the relative safety of the
brutal Taliban government instead of terrorism. And you think the US
should go ahead and let that happen? Weren't you just saying that you
agreed the US should stop them?

Stephen

We disagree on what should be done to "stop them." You view it as a military
problem -- kill them, and keep killing them until they stop fighting. I view
it as a cultural problem. When we stop meddling with affairs that the vast
majority of Americans cannot grasp, as they cannot empathize with any
world-view other than their own, things will improve on their own.

As for the Taliban, this would be the exact same group that the United
States nurtured and supported when Afghanistani mujahideen were fighting
against the evil Soviets. They were led by an individual called Osama bin
Laden. Of course, at that time we were also best buddies with Saddam
Hussein. And Saddam, bless his heart, was gassing kurds and killing Iraqi
revolutionaries at that time.

But who does the Taliban kill? Those who are supporting their enemies. Gee,
sort of like every other government on the planet. How are they any
different than the US, or Israel?