Why "Bristol?"
 

For years I've noticed that yachts for sale which are
in very good shape are often described as being in
"Bristol" condition. Why "Bristol?"

Does the English city of Bristol have some significance
in yachting with implications of a vessel's being in
first-class condition? If so, what's the story behind
that?



Geoff

--
"I imagine that anyone having a nooner with Madonna
would have to occasionally open the door to the
phone booth to let some fresh air in." -- Strayhorn

Why "Bristol?"
 

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 02:05:19 -0600, (Geoff Miller)
wrote:



For years I've noticed that yachts for sale which are
in very good shape are often described as being in
"Bristol" condition. Why "Bristol?"

Does the English city of Bristol have some significance
in yachting with implications of a vessel's being in
first-class condition? If so, what's the story behind
that?



Geoff

It is actually "Ship shape and Bristol fashion". there seem to be a
number of explanations for the term but it certainly has been in use
for more then a hundred years as it is mentioned in "Two Years Before
the Mast", printed in 1840. The meaning apparently has always meant in
top notch condition. (and I don't know where that term originated :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Why "Bristol?"
 

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 02:05:19 -0600, (Geoff Miller)
wrote:



For years I've noticed that yachts for sale which are
in very good shape are often described as being in
"Bristol" condition. Why "Bristol?"

Does the English city of Bristol have some significance
in yachting with implications of a vessel's being in
first-class condition? If so, what's the story behind
that?



Geoff


It is actually "Ship shape and Bristol fashion". there seem to be a
number of explanations for the term but it certainly has been in use
for more then a hundred years as it is mentioned in "Two Years Before
the Mast", printed in 1840. The meaning apparently has always meant in
top notch condition. (and I don't know where that term originated :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)


http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/s...20fashion.html

http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_b...sages/721.html

Why "Bristol?"
 

Why "Bristol?"
 

"Larry" wrote in message
...
(Geoff Miller) wrote in
:

Does the English city of Bristol have some significance
in yachting with implications of a vessel's being in
first-class condition? If so, what's the story behind
that?



I read the references in the other answers. I doubt anyone in the yacht
sales business knows anything about Bristowe and the history behind the
use of it.

All they know is if you put Bristol in the ad, it sells better. That's
enough for them, even if it's a lie. Being a nebulous term with no real
meaning, it probably can't be used against them at the court hearing,
either.

Plaintiff - "He said it was in Bristol condition!"

Judge - "Bristol? What the hell does that mean??!"

See my point? Case dismissed.


At least one surveyor would agree withi this accessment:

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/SurveyGuide.htm

"Summaries are generally not necessary but can be useful particularly for
sizing up vessels that are in particularly good condition or are otherwise
unique or out of the ordinary. The use of superlatives such as excellent,
A-1, first class or Bristol condition should be avoided unless accompanied
by a description or facts supporting such superlatives. There is no
universal agreement on what these terms mean so that their use should be
justified."

Why "Bristol?"
 

On Dec 27, 12:05*am, (Geoff Miller) wrote:
For years I've noticed that yachts for sale which are
in very good shape are often described as being in
"Bristol" condition. *Why "Bristol?" *

Does the English city of Bristol have some significance
in yachting with implications of a vessel's being in
first-class condition? *If so, what's the story behind
that?

Geoff

--
"I imagine that anyone having a nooner with Madonna
*would have to occasionally open the door to the
*phone booth to let some fresh air in." -- Strayhorn

way i heard it is the term refers to the condition of ships from the
ship yards of that port. meaning every thing was tight, rigged
correctly, in good repair, all the stuff needed was stowed where it
was ment to be, and ready to sail.

Why "Bristol?"
 

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 02:05:19 -0600, (Geoff Miller)
wrote:



For years I've noticed that yachts for sale which are
in very good shape are often described as being in
"Bristol" condition. Why "Bristol?"

Does the English city of Bristol have some significance
in yachting with implications of a vessel's being in
first-class condition? If so, what's the story behind
that?



Geoff

Once upon a time....
A ridiculously small country enforced its control on most countries
of any size in the world. It used its Navy for this specific purpose.
When the cry went out: "Send a gunboat" the ship likely departed from
Bristol, which was an important Admiralty center. The shipbuilders at
Bristol were influenced by the Admiralty to provide excellent ships
and equipment. Bristol was part of the South-west which had something
of a culture of excellence: as an example, the Great Western Railway
had semaphore signals which did not dip to pass traffic, but ROSE, so
that any failure along the wire/rod transmission would result in a
semaphore failing to the Stop position. They went on to utilize
automatic train control, etc., etc.

BrianW

Why "Bristol?"
 

"Geoff Miller" wrote in message
...


For years I've noticed that yachts for sale which are
in very good shape are often described as being in
"Bristol" condition. Why "Bristol?"

Does the English city of Bristol have some significance
in yachting with implications of a vessel's being in
first-class condition? If so, what's the story behind
that?



Geoff,

First off allow me to apologize for all the uninformed guesses as to the
origin of the term "Bristol fashion."

It's got nothing to do with anything so far suggested. Believe it or not it
has to do with woman's breasts.

http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/b.htm scroll down to "bristols"

Ship shape and bristol fashion refers to a ship at anchor or docked that is
all stowed away and battened down as it should be like breasts in a properly
tied corset.

http://i2.iofferphoto.com/img/115000...12444281/1.jpg

Note the similarity to many classic figureheads.

Wilbur Hubbard

Why "Bristol?"
 

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:11:05 -0500, WaIIy wrote:

Your posts are full of baba, but kind of fun to read.

Good grief, don't encourage him.

Why "Bristol?"
 

Has anyone actually laid eyes on WH's pitiful craft?
No breasts, no corsets and sure as hell not "Bristol Fashion".
How funny that he aimlessly wanders the docks seeking anything
to either dream about or, in desparation, criticize.
Sad, so sad.............NOT!!!

Why "Bristol?"
 

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 18:36:46 +0000, Larry wrote:

(Geoff Miller) wrote in
:

Does the English city of Bristol have some significance
in yachting with implications of a vessel's being in
first-class condition? If so, what's the story behind
that?



I read the references in the other answers. I doubt anyone in the yacht
sales business knows anything about Bristowe and the history behind the
use of it.

All they know is if you put Bristol in the ad, it sells better. That's
enough for them, even if it's a lie. Being a nebulous term with no real
meaning, it probably can't be used against them at the court hearing,
either.

Plaintiff - "He said it was in Bristol condition!"

Judge - "Bristol? What the hell does that mean??!"

See my point? Case dismissed.

Undoubtedly true. Look at all the terms used in selling - Grand
Tourismo.... Trawler Yacht.... one could go on and on and on and....
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Why "Bristol?"
 

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:11:05 -0500, WaIIy wrote:

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 14:33:40 -0500, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


"Geoff Miller" wrote in message
...


For years I've noticed that yachts for sale which are
in very good shape are often described as being in
"Bristol" condition. Why "Bristol?"

Does the English city of Bristol have some significance
in yachting with implications of a vessel's being in
first-class condition? If so, what's the story behind
that?



Geoff,

First off allow me to apologize for all the uninformed guesses as to the
origin of the term "Bristol fashion."

It's got nothing to do with anything so far suggested. Believe it or not it
has to do with woman's breasts.

http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/b.htm scroll down to "bristols"

Your posts are full of baba, but kind of fun to read.


Ship shape and bristol fashion refers to a ship at anchor or docked that is
all stowed away and battened down as it should be like breasts in a properly
tied corset.

http://i2.iofferphoto.com/img/115000...12444281/1.jpg

Note the similarity to many classic figureheads.

Wilbur Hubbard


Wiley Boy Hubbard, the Sage at Anchor....
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Why "Bristol?"
 

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:41:23 -0800 (PST), pirate
wrote:

Has anyone actually laid eyes on WH's pitiful craft?
No breasts, no corsets and sure as hell not "Bristol Fashion".
How funny that he aimlessly wanders the docks seeking anything
to either dream about or, in desparation, criticize.
Sad, so sad.............NOT!!!


Nauseating defines it better...
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Why "Bristol?"
 

Bruce In Bangkok wrote in
:

Undoubtedly true. Look at all the terms used in selling - Grand
Tourismo.... Trawler Yacht.... one could go on and on and on and....
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)



Can a Yankee survive on $US925/month in Bangkok, Bruce?

I may have to flee the US after Rahm Emanuel, the Zionist's new president,
takes over my country.

Why "Bristol?"
 

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 05:56:14 +0000, Larry wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote in
:

Undoubtedly true. Look at all the terms used in selling - Grand
Tourismo.... Trawler Yacht.... one could go on and on and on and....
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)



Can a Yankee survive on $US925/month in Bangkok, Bruce?

I may have to flee the US after Rahm Emanuel, the Zionist's new president,
takes over my country.

US925 = Baht 31,265 at today's rate.

A Thai with a doctorate in finance working for third or forth largest
bank in Thailand gets a salary of B 30,000/month to start.

A skilled cabinet maker gets 8,000/month plus room and board.

Day workers (unskilled) get between 200 and 350 baht/day worked.

A cheap one room apartment w/bath goes for 2,500/month, lights and
water extra.

The Underground costs are relative to number of stops but probably an
average trip is 12 - 15 baht.

Taxis are 35 baht for 1st Km.

Girls.....Girls.....My wife doesn't allow me to talk with strange
women so I can't comment on today's costs but memories from years ago
indicate that they can be a fairly expensive addition to one's life
style.
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Why "Bristol?"
 

Bruce In Bangkok wrote in
:

Girls.....Girls.....My wife doesn't allow me to talk with strange
women so I can't comment on today's costs but memories from years ago
indicate that they can be a fairly expensive addition to one's life
style.
Cheers,



Thanks for the information. Girls in the USA are also high-dollar, high
maintenance items.....like owning an Italian 250' motor yacht and
running the engines a lot.....

In short, I could live quite well on 32K baht/month. My retirement goes
straight to my bank account, which is available anywhere. The more life
costs, here, the more I think it would be better to live elsewhere. I
suppose there's also some socialized medicine available if they found me
unconcious, about the only way to get me into a doctor's office. I am
the child of medical establishment hypocondriacs. Both my parents lived
for their next doctor visit. It's all they talked about since they were
45.

I've lived in a few Middle East countries, the Shah's dictatorship in
Iran, briefly in Bahrain and Saudi Arabia (There's a sign we put up on
the Red Sea that says, "TRACOR BEACH NEXT 5000 KM", to the great
amusement of the Saudi Army guys at the comm center we were working on
at the time. Noone ever walks over your blanket on Tracor Beach, but
the sea snakes make going in the water a little too exciting for my
tastes.

Too bad Iran thinks Americans support what the Zionist American
Government does. I had a great time in Iran, a vast, beautiful land
almost totally unexplored. If they were to cast off the religious
chains currently killing them, I'd go back to Iran in a heartbeat.

I can understand your wife's position.....Thai girls are beautiful!

Why "Bristol?"
 

In article ,
WaIIy wrote:

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 14:33:40 -0500, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


First off allow me to apologize for all the uninformed guesses as to the
origin of the term "Bristol fashion."

It's got nothing to do with anything so far suggested. Believe it or not it
has to do with woman's breasts.

'Bristols' are rhyming slang for, well, guess - as the full term is
'Bristol Cities'

So nothing to do with ships at all.

And rhyming slang wasn't common usage in 1840.

So 'Bristol-Fashion' as quoted earlier is anyones best guess.

HTH

--
Molesworth - who wouldn't have seen Hubbards' post if it hadn't been
quoted by someone else.

Why "Bristol?"
 

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:32:49 -0600, Nigel Molesworth
wrote:

In article ,
WaIIy wrote:

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 14:33:40 -0500, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


First off allow me to apologize for all the uninformed guesses as to the
origin of the term "Bristol fashion."

It's got nothing to do with anything so far suggested. Believe it or not it
has to do with woman's breasts.

'Bristols' are rhyming slang for, well, guess - as the full term is
'Bristol Cities'

So nothing to do with ships at all.

And rhyming slang wasn't common usage in 1840.

So 'Bristol-Fashion' as quoted earlier is anyones best guess.

I'm guessing it's a corruption of "bristle."
See Tamworth Pig, Bristle-thighed Curlew, and the Trinity Bristle
Snail and the obvious connections can be made.
Being polite, I won't make them.

--Vic

Why "Bristol?"
 

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 14:28:54 +0000, Larry wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote in
:

Girls.....Girls.....My wife doesn't allow me to talk with strange
women so I can't comment on today's costs but memories from years ago
indicate that they can be a fairly expensive addition to one's life
style.
Cheers,



Thanks for the information. Girls in the USA are also high-dollar, high
maintenance items.....like owning an Italian 250' motor yacht and
running the engines a lot.....

In short, I could live quite well on 32K baht/month. My retirement goes
straight to my bank account, which is available anywhere. The more life
costs, here, the more I think it would be better to live elsewhere. I
suppose there's also some socialized medicine available if they found me
unconcious, about the only way to get me into a doctor's office. I am
the child of medical establishment hypocondriacs. Both my parents lived
for their next doctor visit. It's all they talked about since they were
45.

Well, there are some thistles in paradise.

No socialized medicine for foreigners. Thais have the 30 baht medical
scheme (30 baht per visit to the doctor for all medical service and
medicine) and free medical care after 65.

They don't want any lay-abouts so in order to get a resident permit
you need to lodge 800,000 baht in a Thai bank.

No credit from Thai sources. To get a Thai credit card you need to
post a security bond of several times the monthly maximum for the
card.

Language. The vast majority of Thais do not speak a foreign language.
I have a mate in a public hospital about 200 Km. away that is calling
me to come and help him.. Nobody in the hospital speaks English and as
he was injured in a highway crash (broken ribs and bleeding into the
thoracic cavity) he is worried and no one can tell him what his
condition is...He want ms to come over and translate what the doctor
is telling him.

But the girls are nice; or were when I was younger...

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Why "Bristol?"
 

Bruce In Bangkok wrote in
:

They don't want any lay-abouts so in order to get a resident permit
you need to lodge 800,000 baht in a Thai bank.



Wow....$US23K is kinda steep! I might have to work! Not good.

Sorry about your friend. I hurt my hand in Bahrain, slammed into a door
but didn't break anything. The hotel sent me to the hospital and the
Bahraini doctor, educated at UCLA Medical Center with honors from the
sheepskin proudly displayed on his office wall, fixed me up. He just
filled out some government forms and had a good laugh when I asked how
much. "You are a guest in our kingdom. We'll take care of the bill.", he
mused.

I tried to get him and his wonderful staff to come take over medical
service in Charleston, but he politely refused saying he never understood
greedy American doctors only interested in money, not patients....

Drug stores in Bahrain are a shock. They don't have prescriptions. The
druggist finds out what you need and sells it to you. I had a splitting
headache and tried to buy an aspirin from the hotel who sent me down to the
corner drugstore. The druggist sold me a lifetime supply of Darvon 65. I
don't take drugs, even Tylenol if I don't absolutely have to. One Darvon
put me out for almost a day....headache gone! I think they're still in the
meds cabinet with some colds tablets from 1986. I have a box with about
$US45,000 in pills left over from my hypocondriac father's house after he
died. There's stuff in there I can't even pronounce with dire warning on
them. I think it killed him.

Why "Bristol?"
 

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 03:13:42 +0000, Larry wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote in
:

They don't want any lay-abouts so in order to get a resident permit
you need to lodge 800,000 baht in a Thai bank.



Wow....$US23K is kinda steep! I might have to work! Not good.

If you want to work you will have to either work for an established
Thai company or establish your own company..... and then pay taxes.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Why "Bristol?"
 

"Bruce In Bangkok" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 02:05:19 -0600, (Geoff Miller)
wrote:



For years I've noticed that yachts for sale which are
in very good shape are often described as being in
"Bristol" condition. Why "Bristol?"

Does the English city of Bristol have some significance
in yachting with implications of a vessel's being in
first-class condition? If so, what's the story behind
that?



Geoff

It is actually "Ship shape and Bristol fashion". there seem to be a
number of explanations for the term but it certainly has been in use
for more then a hundred years as it is mentioned in "Two Years Before
the Mast", printed in 1840. The meaning apparently has always meant in
top notch condition. (and I don't know where that term originated :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

"Two Years Before the Mast"
What a great book. Haven't heard the title mentioned in a long time.

Why "Bristol?"
 

"mmc" wrote in message
g.com...

It is actually "Ship shape and Bristol fashion". there seem to be a
number of explanations for the term but it certainly has been in use
for more then a hundred years as it is mentioned in "Two Years Before
the Mast", printed in 1840. The meaning apparently has always meant in
top notch condition. (and I don't know where that term originated :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

"Two Years Before the Mast"
What a great book. Haven't heard the title mentioned in a long time.
I reread it earlier this year and it is a most interesting account of life
aboard ship around the 1830's and a good picture of Southern California in
those days..
Interesting how they went across to the west coast of USA and stayed there
for two years while they steadily filled the hold with hides, compressing
them down with levers until sometimes the pressure would lift a ships deck
up off its beams. I presume they were buffalo hides so no wonder there are
not so many of these animals left. I doubt there were enough people there
in those days to eat all the carcasses so they must have all been wasted.
And then there is the bit about a shipmate who fell off the ice covered
yardarms while running towards Cape Horn and they had no option but to sail
on while his cries faded away astern...
I wonder if it is still in print. My copy came from a s/h bookshop and was
inscribed as a Christmas present to someone in December 1900.

Why "Bristol?"
 

In article ,
(Geoff Miller) wrote:

For years I've noticed that yachts for sale which are
in very good shape are often described as being in
"Bristol" condition. Why "Bristol?"

If perchance you meant "Bristol fashion" , take a look at:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/shipsh...ristol_fashion

or it's equivalent:

http://tinyurl.com/99wu3d

You'll find the basis for this phrase which means "Tidily tied down and
secure".

ron

Why "Bristol?"
 

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 21:14:44 +0100, "Edgar"
wrote:


"mmc" wrote in message
ng.com...

It is actually "Ship shape and Bristol fashion". there seem to be a
number of explanations for the term but it certainly has been in use
for more then a hundred years as it is mentioned in "Two Years Before
the Mast", printed in 1840. The meaning apparently has always meant in
top notch condition. (and I don't know where that term originated :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

"Two Years Before the Mast"
What a great book. Haven't heard the title mentioned in a long time.
I reread it earlier this year and it is a most interesting account of life
aboard ship around the 1830's and a good picture of Southern California in
those days..
Interesting how they went across to the west coast of USA and stayed there
for two years while they steadily filled the hold with hides, compressing
them down with levers until sometimes the pressure would lift a ships deck
up off its beams. I presume they were buffalo hides so no wonder there are
not so many of these animals left. I doubt there were enough people there
in those days to eat all the carcasses so they must have all been wasted.
And then there is the bit about a shipmate who fell off the ice covered
yardarms while running towards Cape Horn and they had no option but to sail
on while his cries faded away astern...
I wonder if it is still in print. My copy came from a s/h bookshop and was
inscribed as a Christmas present to someone in December 1900.


It's been years since I read the book but I have the idea that these
were cattle hides. Isn't there something in the book about being
anchored near some ranch and the ranch hands throwing dried hides down
a cliff so the crew could load them aboard?
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Why "Bristol?"
 

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 07:12:56 +0700, Bruce In Bangkok
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 21:14:44 +0100, "Edgar"
wrote:


"mmc" wrote in message
ing.com...

It is actually "Ship shape and Bristol fashion". there seem to be a
number of explanations for the term but it certainly has been in use
for more then a hundred years as it is mentioned in "Two Years Before
the Mast", printed in 1840. The meaning apparently has always meant in
top notch condition. (and I don't know where that term originated :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

"Two Years Before the Mast"
What a great book. Haven't heard the title mentioned in a long time.
I reread it earlier this year and it is a most interesting account of life
aboard ship around the 1830's and a good picture of Southern California in
those days..
Interesting how they went across to the west coast of USA and stayed there
for two years while they steadily filled the hold with hides, compressing
them down with levers until sometimes the pressure would lift a ships deck
up off its beams. I presume they were buffalo hides so no wonder there are
not so many of these animals left. I doubt there were enough people there
in those days to eat all the carcasses so they must have all been wasted.
And then there is the bit about a shipmate who fell off the ice covered
yardarms while running towards Cape Horn and they had no option but to sail
on while his cries faded away astern...
I wonder if it is still in print. My copy came from a s/h bookshop and was
inscribed as a Christmas present to someone in December 1900.


It's been years since I read the book but I have the idea that these
were cattle hides. Isn't there something in the book about being
anchored near some ranch and the ranch hands throwing dried hides down
a cliff so the crew could load them aboard?
Cheers,

I believe you're correct. I think the buffalo were mostly wiped out
by "sportsmen" on shooting sprees.
If you keep American history in view as you read TYBTM, it becomes
more than a sea journal. For example the Alamo fell during Dana's
voyage. The Plains Indians were the lords of much west of the
Mississippi, St Joseph, Missouri was a trading post and the Pony
Express was years in the future. etc., etc.
I marveled more at the sea tale when I paused and put some of the
other history in place with Dana's world.
California was more remote to Americans than Europe was then.
Hey, maybe it still is! (-:

--Vic

Why "Bristol?"
 

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:01:31 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

I believe you're correct. I think the buffalo were mostly wiped out
by "sportsmen" on shooting sprees.

Of course not. It was market hunting for the hides. This with the
connivance of the gov who wanted to force the indians to eat gov beef
on a reservation. They killed all but 500, but now there are about 600
000, many in private herds. I guess they have to harvest them with
guns. Too big and mean to walk up a ramp into a truck.

Casady

Why "Bristol?"
 

"Bruce In Bangkok" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 21:14:44 +0100, "Edgar"
wrote:
"Two Years Before the Mast"
What a great book. Haven't heard the title mentioned in a long time.
I reread it earlier this year and it is a most interesting account of life
aboard ship around the 1830's and a good picture of Southern California in
those days..
Interesting how they went across to the west coast of USA and stayed there
for two years while they steadily filled the hold with hides, compressing
them down with levers until sometimes the pressure would lift a ships deck
up off its beams. I presume they were buffalo hides so no wonder there are
not so many of these animals left. I doubt there were enough people there
in those days to eat all the carcasses so they must have all been wasted.
And then there is the bit about a shipmate who fell off the ice covered
yardarms while running towards Cape Horn and they had no option but to
sail
on while his cries faded away astern...
I wonder if it is still in print. My copy came from a s/h bookshop and was
inscribed as a Christmas present to someone in December 1900.


It's been years since I read the book but I have the idea that these
were cattle hides. Isn't there something in the book about being
anchored near some ranch and the ranch hands throwing dried hides down
a cliff so the crew could load them aboard?
Cheers,


I have dipped again into my book and think you may be right as when at San
Pedro loading hides it is mentioned that there is a large cattle ranch
somewhat inland. And yes they did throw them down a cliff and because the
rough stony beach quickly wore out their valuable shoes, they carried the
hides on their heads down to the ships boat while barefoot.
However he also says that the number of hides was becoming less as the years
progressed, which is not surprising since one single ship was loaded with no
less than forty thousand hides and a smaller ship carried only thirty
thousand.
I came across some gems too:-
"The Californians are an idle, thriftless people, and can make nothing for
themselves"
"San Diego (he told me) was a small snug place, having very little trade,
but decidedly the best harbour on the coast, being completely landlocked,
and the water as smooth as a duckpond"

I think it is time I reread the whole book.

Why "Bristol?"
 

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 15:11:17 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:01:31 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

I believe you're correct. I think the buffalo were mostly wiped out
by "sportsmen" on shooting sprees.

Of course not. It was market hunting for the hides. This with the
connivance of the gov who wanted to force the indians to eat gov beef
on a reservation. They killed all but 500, but now there are about 600
000, many in private herds. I guess they have to harvest them with
guns. Too big and mean to walk up a ramp into a truck.

Didn't know there was a big market for those hides.
'Course I wasn't there (-:
I do recall reading accounts of buffalo being shot from train windows
and Buffalo Bill shooting some hundreds in a day, in which cases the
buffalo were left to rot where they fell.
But maybe that was exaggerated by the "bleeding heart" crowd.
When I'm in the mood I'll look it up.
Seems fencing the range, cattlemen, and farmers would have had a big
effect too.

--Vic

Why "Bristol?"
 

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 15:11:17 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:01:31 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

I believe you're correct. I think the buffalo were mostly wiped out
by "sportsmen" on shooting sprees.

Of course not. It was market hunting for the hides. This with the
connivance of the gov who wanted to force the indians to eat gov beef
on a reservation. They killed all but 500, but now there are about 600
000, many in private herds. I guess they have to harvest them with
guns. Too big and mean to walk up a ramp into a truck.

Casady


I don't believe that you are correct about the government. I suspect
that the aim was to totally destroy the Indian's source of food,
clothing and shelter, olden time strategic warfare - destroy the
enemy's capability to wage war... As far as the reservations went, I
think that the government would been far happier to see the Indians
just disappear. At least I've read no contemporary writing that seemed
to say the Indians were anything but a "problem".

I read somewhere that all the present day buffalo (bison) in the US
are descended from several Canadian buffalo imported into the U.S.,
what, 50 years ago?

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Why "Bristol?"
 

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 16:15:17 +0100, "Edgar"
wrote:


"Bruce In Bangkok" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 21:14:44 +0100, "Edgar"
wrote:
"Two Years Before the Mast"
What a great book. Haven't heard the title mentioned in a long time.
I reread it earlier this year and it is a most interesting account of life
aboard ship around the 1830's and a good picture of Southern California in
those days..
Interesting how they went across to the west coast of USA and stayed there
for two years while they steadily filled the hold with hides, compressing
them down with levers until sometimes the pressure would lift a ships deck
up off its beams. I presume they were buffalo hides so no wonder there are
not so many of these animals left. I doubt there were enough people there
in those days to eat all the carcasses so they must have all been wasted.
And then there is the bit about a shipmate who fell off the ice covered
yardarms while running towards Cape Horn and they had no option but to
sail
on while his cries faded away astern...
I wonder if it is still in print. My copy came from a s/h bookshop and was
inscribed as a Christmas present to someone in December 1900.


It's been years since I read the book but I have the idea that these
were cattle hides. Isn't there something in the book about being
anchored near some ranch and the ranch hands throwing dried hides down
a cliff so the crew could load them aboard?
Cheers,


I have dipped again into my book and think you may be right as when at San
Pedro loading hides it is mentioned that there is a large cattle ranch
somewhat inland. And yes they did throw them down a cliff and because the
rough stony beach quickly wore out their valuable shoes, they carried the
hides on their heads down to the ships boat while barefoot.
However he also says that the number of hides was becoming less as the years
progressed, which is not surprising since one single ship was loaded with no
less than forty thousand hides and a smaller ship carried only thirty
thousand.
I came across some gems too:-
"The Californians are an idle, thriftless people, and can make nothing for
themselves"
"San Diego (he told me) was a small snug place, having very little trade,
but decidedly the best harbour on the coast, being completely landlocked,
and the water as smooth as a duckpond"

I think it is time I reread the whole book.


Didn't the book also result in improved working conditions and
treatment for sailors? I think I remember something about that also,
not in the book itself, of course.

Being from New England I re-read Moby Dick periodically. I wonder if
whaling were restricted to sailing ships and row boats it might not
solve the whale problem. I wonder whether you could hire people today
to row out and spear a whale... by hand.... in a row boat....without a
PFD... in the Southern Ocean... in the winter time?

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Why "Bristol?"
 

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 09:50:00 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 15:11:17 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:01:31 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

I believe you're correct. I think the buffalo were mostly wiped out
by "sportsmen" on shooting sprees.

Of course not. It was market hunting for the hides. This with the
connivance of the gov who wanted to force the indians to eat gov beef
on a reservation. They killed all but 500, but now there are about 600
000, many in private herds. I guess they have to harvest them with
guns. Too big and mean to walk up a ramp into a truck.

Didn't know there was a big market for those hides.
'Course I wasn't there (-:
I do recall reading accounts of buffalo being shot from train windows
and Buffalo Bill shooting some hundreds in a day, in which cases the
buffalo were left to rot where they fell.
But maybe that was exaggerated by the "bleeding heart" crowd.
When I'm in the mood I'll look it up.
Seems fencing the range, cattlemen, and farmers would have had a big
effect too.

--Vic

I've seen photos of buffalo bones piled higher then a steam train
engine for what looked like hundreds of yards and there are
contemporary writings reporting what the buffalo hunters shot. I don't
think your numbers are exaggerated.
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Why "Bristol?"
 

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 21:14:44 +0100, "Edgar"
wrote:

"mmc" wrote in message
g.com...
It is actually "Ship shape and Bristol fashion". there seem to be a
number of explanations for the term but it certainly has been in use
for more then a hundred years as it is mentioned in "Two Years Before
the Mast", printed in 1840. The meaning apparently has always meant in
top notch condition. (and I don't know where that term originated :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
"Two Years Before the Mast"
What a great book. Haven't heard the title mentioned in a long time.
I reread it earlier this year and it is a most interesting account of life
aboard ship around the 1830's and a good picture of Southern California in
those days..
Interesting how they went across to the west coast of USA and stayed there
for two years while they steadily filled the hold with hides, compressing
them down with levers until sometimes the pressure would lift a ships deck
up off its beams. I presume they were buffalo hides so no wonder there are
not so many of these animals left. I doubt there were enough people there
in those days to eat all the carcasses so they must have all been wasted.
And then there is the bit about a shipmate who fell off the ice covered
yardarms while running towards Cape Horn and they had no option but to sail
on while his cries faded away astern...
I wonder if it is still in print. My copy came from a s/h bookshop and was
inscribed as a Christmas present to someone in December 1900.


It's been years since I read the book but I have the idea that these
were cattle hides. Isn't there something in the book about being
anchored near some ranch and the ranch hands throwing dried hides down
a cliff so the crew could load them aboard?
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Way off topic here but some random thoughts.......

As I recall the Arch Duke Ferdinand, the guy that got shot to start WW1,
was famous for hiring a train for a "hunting" trip. He would run
through a wild region when the caribou or whatever were migrating and
shot himself silly, killing hundreds.

Munich has a hunting museum. They have a painting of some royal having
a "hunt" where they run hundreds of deer into a river to drown them.

In Newfoundland they have the spring seal hunt for pelts. Apparently
they just skin the animals on the ice and leave the carcass'. My Aunt
sometimes makes "flipper" but has to plan to get the meat. She has to
get someone from Gander to go up to Twillingate to get the meat when the
boats come in. Most don't bring any meat home. Not bad if it is cooked
right.

Why "Bristol?"
 

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 16:15:17 +0100, "Edgar"
wrote:

"Bruce In Bangkok" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 21:14:44 +0100, "Edgar"
wrote:
"Two Years Before the Mast"
What a great book. Haven't heard the title mentioned in a long time.
I reread it earlier this year and it is a most interesting account of life
aboard ship around the 1830's and a good picture of Southern California in
those days..
Interesting how they went across to the west coast of USA and stayed there
for two years while they steadily filled the hold with hides, compressing
them down with levers until sometimes the pressure would lift a ships deck
up off its beams. I presume they were buffalo hides so no wonder there are
not so many of these animals left. I doubt there were enough people there
in those days to eat all the carcasses so they must have all been wasted.
And then there is the bit about a shipmate who fell off the ice covered
yardarms while running towards Cape Horn and they had no option but to
sail
on while his cries faded away astern...
I wonder if it is still in print. My copy came from a s/h bookshop and was
inscribed as a Christmas present to someone in December 1900.

It's been years since I read the book but I have the idea that these
were cattle hides. Isn't there something in the book about being
anchored near some ranch and the ranch hands throwing dried hides down
a cliff so the crew could load them aboard?
Cheers,

I have dipped again into my book and think you may be right as when at San
Pedro loading hides it is mentioned that there is a large cattle ranch
somewhat inland. And yes they did throw them down a cliff and because the
rough stony beach quickly wore out their valuable shoes, they carried the
hides on their heads down to the ships boat while barefoot.
However he also says that the number of hides was becoming less as the years
progressed, which is not surprising since one single ship was loaded with no
less than forty thousand hides and a smaller ship carried only thirty
thousand.
I came across some gems too:-
"The Californians are an idle, thriftless people, and can make nothing for
themselves"
"San Diego (he told me) was a small snug place, having very little trade,
but decidedly the best harbour on the coast, being completely landlocked,
and the water as smooth as a duckpond"

I think it is time I reread the whole book.


Didn't the book also result in improved working conditions and
treatment for sailors? I think I remember something about that also,
not in the book itself, of course.

Being from New England I re-read Moby Dick periodically. I wonder if
whaling were restricted to sailing ships and row boats it might not
solve the whale problem. I wonder whether you could hire people today
to row out and spear a whale... by hand.... in a row boat....without a
PFD... in the Southern Ocean... in the winter time?

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

I have a few co-workers I would like to volunteer for the duty.

Why "Bristol?"
 

"hpeer" wrote in message
...
Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 21:14:44 +0100, "Edgar"
wrote:

"mmc" wrote in message
g.com...
It is actually "Ship shape and Bristol fashion". there seem to be a
number of explanations for the term but it certainly has been in use
for more then a hundred years as it is mentioned in "Two Years Before
the Mast", printed in 1840. The meaning apparently has always meant in
top notch condition. (and I don't know where that term originated :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
"Two Years Before the Mast"
What a great book. Haven't heard the title mentioned in a long time.
I reread it earlier this year and it is a most interesting account of
life aboard ship around the 1830's and a good picture of Southern
California in those days..
Interesting how they went across to the west coast of USA and stayed
there for two years while they steadily filled the hold with hides,
compressing them down with levers until sometimes the pressure would
lift a ships deck up off its beams. I presume they were buffalo hides so
no wonder there are not so many of these animals left. I doubt there
were enough people there in those days to eat all the carcasses so they
must have all been wasted.
And then there is the bit about a shipmate who fell off the ice covered
yardarms while running towards Cape Horn and they had no option but to
sail on while his cries faded away astern...
I wonder if it is still in print. My copy came from a s/h bookshop and
was inscribed as a Christmas present to someone in December 1900.

It's been years since I read the book but I have the idea that these
were cattle hides. Isn't there something in the book about being
anchored near some ranch and the ranch hands throwing dried hides down
a cliff so the crew could load them aboard?
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Way off topic here but some random thoughts.......

As I recall the Arch Duke Ferdinand, the guy that got shot to start WW1,
was famous for hiring a train for a "hunting" trip. He would run through
a wild region when the caribou or whatever were migrating and shot himself
silly, killing hundreds.

Munich has a hunting museum. They have a painting of some royal having a
"hunt" where they run hundreds of deer into a river to drown them.

In Newfoundland they have the spring seal hunt for pelts. Apparently they
just skin the animals on the ice and leave the carcass'. My Aunt
sometimes makes "flipper" but has to plan to get the meat. She has to get
someone from Gander to go up to Twillingate to get the meat when the boats
come in. Most don't bring any meat home. Not bad if it is cooked right.

I remember the one time I was in St.John's back in 1969.
They were selling raw seal flippers on wooden tables down on the waterfront.
The locals claimed they tasted great.
I passed.

Why "Bristol?"
 

hpeer wrote:

In Newfoundland they have the spring seal hunt for pelts. Apparently
they just skin the animals on the ice and leave the carcass'.

I don't know anybody that eats mink meat......

Cheers
Martin

Why "Bristol?"
 

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 21:05:05 -0500, hpeer wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 21:14:44 +0100, "Edgar"
wrote:

"mmc" wrote in message
g.com...
It is actually "Ship shape and Bristol fashion". there seem to be a
number of explanations for the term but it certainly has been in use
for more then a hundred years as it is mentioned in "Two Years Before
the Mast", printed in 1840. The meaning apparently has always meant in
top notch condition. (and I don't know where that term originated :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
"Two Years Before the Mast"
What a great book. Haven't heard the title mentioned in a long time.
I reread it earlier this year and it is a most interesting account of life
aboard ship around the 1830's and a good picture of Southern California in
those days..
Interesting how they went across to the west coast of USA and stayed there
for two years while they steadily filled the hold with hides, compressing
them down with levers until sometimes the pressure would lift a ships deck
up off its beams. I presume they were buffalo hides so no wonder there are
not so many of these animals left. I doubt there were enough people there
in those days to eat all the carcasses so they must have all been wasted.
And then there is the bit about a shipmate who fell off the ice covered
yardarms while running towards Cape Horn and they had no option but to sail
on while his cries faded away astern...
I wonder if it is still in print. My copy came from a s/h bookshop and was
inscribed as a Christmas present to someone in December 1900.


It's been years since I read the book but I have the idea that these
were cattle hides. Isn't there something in the book about being
anchored near some ranch and the ranch hands throwing dried hides down
a cliff so the crew could load them aboard?
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Way off topic here but some random thoughts.......

As I recall the Arch Duke Ferdinand, the guy that got shot to start WW1,
was famous for hiring a train for a "hunting" trip. He would run
through a wild region when the caribou or whatever were migrating and
shot himself silly, killing hundreds.

Munich has a hunting museum. They have a painting of some royal having
a "hunt" where they run hundreds of deer into a river to drown them.

In Newfoundland they have the spring seal hunt for pelts. Apparently
they just skin the animals on the ice and leave the carcass'. My Aunt
sometimes makes "flipper" but has to plan to get the meat. She has to
get someone from Gander to go up to Twillingate to get the meat when the
boats come in. Most don't bring any meat home. Not bad if it is cooked
right.


I've read accounts of the buffalo herds "covering the ground as far as
you could see". Just as the Grand Banks cod fish, no one ever believed
that man could kill 'em all.

By the way, I just read a report that the melting polar ice caps will
likely put paid to a large percentage of two species of penguins.


Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Why "Bristol?"
 

By the way, I just read a report that the melting polar ice caps will
likely put paid to a large percentage of two species of penguins.


Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

PBEM Policy-based Evidence Making

See this article on melting polar caps and be sure to read the whole
thing to get the cruising aspect!
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07...ard_polar_ice/

Gordon

Why "Bristol?"
 

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:

I've read accounts of the buffalo herds "covering the ground as far as
you could see". Just as the Grand Banks cod fish, no one ever believed
that man could kill 'em all. ....
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Oh, there were more buffalo, far more buffalo than would cover one horizon.
Try this: buffalo moving, as far as the eye could see in any direction,
moving day and night, for three days, from eye-witness accounts; seen
right here where I live in this little town on the southern edge of the
prairie. But that was then. The local buffalo herd (Wichita Mountains
State Park) has perhaps a hundred....
Twenty miles from here, on the North Fork of the Red River, was the
site of the first government meeting and treaty-making with the Plains
Indians. That treaty was short lived..... Signed at Devil's Canyon.

Brian Whatcott Altus OK