solar panel delam issue
 

Seasons greetings from La Paz, Mexico. Nice place to be fixing the
boat, don't you know :). Even in these dark times I've been thinking
that there was a problem with my solar array and now that we are in a
town I finally got around to ripping off the suspect panel to inspect
it. It is a Kyocera KC80 and is a laminate of glass, EVA glue and PVF
backing. A small section of backing has pulled away from the glass
causing a fault in the ground line for about 2/3 of the cells. I can
make the panel work by squeezing in just the right place so I'm pretty
sure this is the only problem with the module. I tested the bypass
diodes and connectors and they are good. Now, I just e-mailed kyocera
and don't yet know what their response will be. In the event that I
have to fix the module I can see two ways to go about it. The
delamination is at the edge of the panel. My current "fix" for
testing purposes uses a clamp on the frame to press a couple of nuts
up against the plastic which squeezes the contact closed. I could tap
the fame and make-up a cam to clamp the thing. Another way to go
about it would be to carefully slice open the blistered section of
plastic and attempt to fix the contact and then seal it up with a
bunch of goop. I'm thinking 5200 for the goop. I'm not sure what to
use to join the connections. They are thin foil and already damaged
so I think solder is out. Some kind of conductive room temperature
glue would be ideal. Is there any such thing? Does anyone know the
Spanish for it? Or I might epoxy a bit of silver or copper foil
across the joint... Not quite sure of how that would work in detail,
though...

Any ideas out there?

Thanks!

--Tom.

solar panel delam issue
 

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 19:41:43 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

Seasons greetings from La Paz, Mexico. ... They are thin foil and already damaged
so I think solder is out. Some kind of conductive room temperature
glue would be ideal. Is there any such thing? Does anyone know the
Spanish for it? Or I might epoxy a bit of silver or copper foil
across the joint... Not quite sure of how that would work in detail,
though...

Any ideas out there?

Thanks!

--Tom.

Solar panels are often made with soldered copper tape busses.
So copper tape and solder would be one way to go.
There is a siver loaded epoxy that can do reasonably well in thin
layers. It's expensive, naturally.

BrianW

solar panel delam issue
 

These have a 25 year warranty. Contact the manufacturer.

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

solar panel delam issue
 

wrote in message
...
Seasons greetings from La Paz, Mexico. Nice place to be fixing the
boat, don't you know :). Even in these dark times I've been thinking
that there was a problem with my solar array and now that we are in a
town I finally got around to ripping off the suspect panel to inspect
it. It is a Kyocera KC80 and is a laminate of glass, EVA glue and PVF
backing. A small section of backing has pulled away from the glass
causing a fault in the ground line for about 2/3 of the cells. I can
make the panel work by squeezing in just the right place so I'm pretty
sure this is the only problem with the module. I tested the bypass
diodes and connectors and they are good. Now, I just e-mailed kyocera
and don't yet know what their response will be. In the event that I
have to fix the module I can see two ways to go about it. The
delamination is at the edge of the panel. My current "fix" for
testing purposes uses a clamp on the frame to press a couple of nuts
up against the plastic which squeezes the contact closed. I could tap
the fame and make-up a cam to clamp the thing. Another way to go
about it would be to carefully slice open the blistered section of
plastic and attempt to fix the contact and then seal it up with a
bunch of goop. I'm thinking 5200 for the goop. I'm not sure what to
use to join the connections. They are thin foil and already damaged
so I think solder is out. Some kind of conductive room temperature
glue would be ideal. Is there any such thing? Does anyone know the
Spanish for it? Or I might epoxy a bit of silver or copper foil
across the joint... Not quite sure of how that would work in detail,
though...

Any ideas out there?

Thanks!

--Tom.


No ideas, but I'm glad to hear all is well! An uneventful cruise?


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

solar panel delam issue
 

How old are the panels??

solar panel delam issue
 

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 19:41:43 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

Seasons greetings from La Paz, Mexico. Nice place to be fixing the
boat, don't you know :). Even in these dark times I've been thinking
that there was a problem with my solar array and now that we are in a
town I finally got around to ripping off the suspect panel to inspect
it. It is a Kyocera KC80 and is a laminate of glass, EVA glue and PVF
backing. A small section of backing has pulled away from the glass
causing a fault in the ground line for about 2/3 of the cells. I can
make the panel work by squeezing in just the right place so I'm pretty
sure this is the only problem with the module. I tested the bypass
diodes and connectors and they are good. Now, I just e-mailed kyocera
and don't yet know what their response will be. In the event that I
have to fix the module I can see two ways to go about it. The
delamination is at the edge of the panel. My current "fix" for
testing purposes uses a clamp on the frame to press a couple of nuts
up against the plastic which squeezes the contact closed. I could tap
the fame and make-up a cam to clamp the thing. Another way to go
about it would be to carefully slice open the blistered section of
plastic and attempt to fix the contact and then seal it up with a
bunch of goop. I'm thinking 5200 for the goop. I'm not sure what to
use to join the connections. They are thin foil and already damaged
so I think solder is out. Some kind of conductive room temperature
glue would be ideal. Is there any such thing? Does anyone know the
Spanish for it? Or I might epoxy a bit of silver or copper foil
across the joint... Not quite sure of how that would work in detail,
though...

Any ideas out there?

Thanks!

--Tom.

There is liquid "stuff" for repairing traces on circuit boards. Check
with anyplace that sells electronics service supplies, or even
hobbyist stores like Radio Shack.

solar panel delam issue
 

On Dec 23, 4:41*am, pirate wrote:
*How old are the panels??

They are just under 9 years old. They are supposed to be warranted
for 20 but there may not be a practical way to get a replacement to me
here in Baja Mexico... I just don't know yet. I have sent Kyocera an
email and attempted a phone call but no joy. It is the holiday season
so there may not be anyone in the office...

--Tom.

solar panel delam issue
 

On Dec 23, 4:55*am, wrote:
....
There is liquid "stuff" for repairing traces on circuit boards. Check
with anyplace that sells electronics service supplies, or even
hobbyist stores like Radio Shack.

Thanks for that. I'll look around. La Paz is a decent sized town so
there may be something here.

--Tom.

solar panel delam issue
 

On Dec 22, 9:04*pm, Geoff Schultz wrote:
These have a 25 year warranty. *Contact the manufacturer.

-- Geoffwww.GeoffSchultz.org

I'm trying to. Meanwhile I'm in a sort of remote place and want the
solar so it might be nice to fix the panel, too...

--Tom.

solar panel delam issue
 

solar panel delam issue
 

On Dec 22, 9:00*pm, Brian Whatcott wrote:
....
Solar panels are often made with soldered copper tape busses.
So copper tape and solder would be one way to go.
There is a siver loaded epoxy that can do reasonably well in thin
layers. It's expensive, naturally.

BrianW

Right. The tapes on these panels are either well "tinned" or silver.
I presume the former. From the lens side I can't see any solder but
that doesn't really mean anything. If the foil is tinned maybe just
touching it with an iron would make a join...

--Tom.

solar panel delam issue
 

On Dec 22, 11:27*pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
wrote in message
....
No ideas, but I'm glad to hear all is well! An uneventful cruise?

It's been a nice run so far. Had some run ins with kelp and an attack
of dysentery but also had some lovely spinnaker runs and a pile of
fish... On the balance I think that works out in my favor!

Cheers,

--Tom.

solar panel delam issue
 

On Dec 23, 7:20*am, IanM wrote:
... *If you can gain
access, it can probably be soldered, though a very low temperature
solder e.g. indium alloy might be a good idea. *If you don't have the
skills to do that bit find someone who does. *Ebay item *320327080917
might be worth getting. With a little copper foil to patch the break,
and some 150 deg C melting point solder you should be good to go.

Alternatively there *is* car window heater repair paint that can take
the current. *Gluing anything across the crack wont work unless the glue
is very highly conductive.

I'd be concerned about corrosion from the 5200. *I'm not sure what it
liberates as it cures, but if it etches the foil at all you are screwed.
Also its going to be a bitch to apply bubble free and without stressing
the damaged area and repair. *Personally, I'd clean, lightly rough up
and degrease the backing, before cutting it to do the repair and apply
some variety of spray or brush on electrical lacquer afterwards. When
its all dry and the repair is protected, you can stick down any edges of
backing and make good with a sheet of suitable plastic or similar (maybe
a piece of inflatable patch material?) and whatever sealant seems most
appropriate. Alternatively just flood the area with epoxy and when cured
goop some sealent over it for resilient protection.

Thanks for all of that. Lots to think about. There isn't a crack as
such. The connection is a bit of foil coming from one of the sections
of the panel to the negative bus. As the backing has bubbled off it
seems that the over/under connection between them has separated.
Compressing the join makes the connection again, though I don't know
if it is a good one...


I *DO* hope Kyocera decide to make it right as their claimed 20 year
warranty has weasel worded exclusion clauses like (C.2)"h) defects
and/or failures caused by use on a mobile unit including, but not
limited to, vehicles, vessels, etc.;"

Yes, I hope so, too. It's probably not a good week to be trying to
get help so I'm assuming the lack of response so far is because of the
holiday. I think I'm looking at a manufacturing defect. The panel
worked for years and it doesn't look like any moisture has gotten in
there or anything -- the foil is bright and lovely looking. The
plastic has just bubbled up a bit and the join is faulty. I trust
they will stand behind the panel. But, I'm a cruiser and I want to
move around so the logistics may be hard even if they make a good
faith effort. Hard to tell until I get somebody to respond anyway...
....
so the panels cant be *that* old. *Tom, how old are they, you didn't say?

I bought them in 2000 when I was building the boat.

The replacement would probably be the KC85T -
Kyocera KC series solar panel KC85T
http://www.kyocerasolar.com/pdf/specsheets/KC85T.pdf

Tom, do post some links to pictures of the problem here. *I assume that
since you are asking Kyocera for support you have already excluded
self-inflicted mounting damage etc. *If they don't want to replace the
defective panel, do ask them about the best way to repair it and ask
them for their comments on the advice you've already had in this thread.

Not sure how easy it would be to photograph the fault as it is just a
slight bubble in the white plastic backing. I'll take a picture and
if it comes out I'll put it on the web somewhere...

Cheers,

--Tom.

solar panel delam issue
 

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 22:00:05 -0600, Brian Whatcott
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 19:41:43 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

Seasons greetings from La Paz, Mexico. ... They are thin foil and already damaged
so I think solder is out. Some kind of conductive room temperature
glue would be ideal. Is there any such thing? Does anyone know the
Spanish for it? Or I might epoxy a bit of silver or copper foil
across the joint... Not quite sure of how that would work in detail,
though...

Any ideas out there?

Thanks!

--Tom.

Solar panels are often made with soldered copper tape busses.
So copper tape and solder would be one way to go.
There is a siver loaded epoxy that can do reasonably well in thin
layers. It's expensive, naturally.

BrianW

As for solder, one of the lead free formulations, 95 tin, 5 silver, is
twice as strong as the old 50/ 50 lead/tin and melts at 375. Some
have said there is a 25 year warranty, although how you can trust a
company to exist that long is beyond me

Casady

solar panel delam issue
 

wrote in message
...
Seasons greetings from La Paz, Mexico. Nice place to be fixing the
boat, don't you know :). Even in these dark times I've been thinking
that there was a problem with my solar array and now that we are in a
town I finally got around to ripping off the suspect panel to inspect
it. It is a Kyocera KC80 and is a laminate of glass, EVA glue and PVF
backing. A small section of backing has pulled away from the glass
causing a fault in the ground line for about 2/3 of the cells. I can
make the panel work by squeezing in just the right place so I'm pretty
sure this is the only problem with the module. I tested the bypass
diodes and connectors and they are good. Now, I just e-mailed kyocera
and don't yet know what their response will be. In the event that I
have to fix the module I can see two ways to go about it. The
delamination is at the edge of the panel. My current "fix" for
testing purposes uses a clamp on the frame to press a couple of nuts
up against the plastic which squeezes the contact closed. I could tap
the fame and make-up a cam to clamp the thing. Another way to go
about it would be to carefully slice open the blistered section of
plastic and attempt to fix the contact and then seal it up with a
bunch of goop. I'm thinking 5200 for the goop. I'm not sure what to
use to join the connections. They are thin foil and already damaged
so I think solder is out. Some kind of conductive room temperature
glue would be ideal. Is there any such thing? Does anyone know the
Spanish for it? Or I might epoxy a bit of silver or copper foil
across the joint... Not quite sure of how that would work in detail,
though...

Any ideas out there?

Thanks!

--Tom.


http://www.affordable-solar.com/kyoc...olar.panel.htm

Discontinued! There's a reason why it was discontinued. It's a piece of
crap. Next time try buying quality photovoltaics. Evergreen has the best,
most cost effective, and environmentally responsible during manufacturing
process photovoltaics suitable for marine use made today.

Toss your broken panel and get a new one. Life's too short to spend your
time working on Jap junk.

Wilbur Hubbard

solar panel delam issue
 

" wrote in news:ec8f0961-83cc-4a94-
:

Any ideas out there?



Solar panels have a long warranty period.....unless some idiot starts using
his drill to "fix" them, of course.....

Just swap it!

solar panel delam issue
 

On Dec 23, 12:00*pm, Larry wrote:
....
Solar panels have a long warranty period.....unless some idiot starts using
his drill to "fix" them, of course.....

Just swap it!

You are a wise man, it seems. Just got a note from the warranty
dept. They offered to swap all the panels I bought, not just the
defective one! We'll see what really happens and how the
international logistics work out, but that's a pretty nice opening
offer. They are closed for the holidays so it will takes some weeks
at the least.. Bummer about that. Too, ripping the rack out and then
re-glassing it is a major so I don't really want to replace the whole
array.

--Tom.

solar panel delam issue
 

They should be able to ship them to La Paz. You might want to talk to the
people in the Moorings office. They're pretty good with local info like
this.

wrote in message
...
On Dec 23, 4:41 am, pirate wrote:
How old are the panels??

They are just under 9 years old. They are supposed to be warranted
for 20 but there may not be a practical way to get a replacement to me
here in Baja Mexico... I just don't know yet. I have sent Kyocera an
email and attempted a phone call but no joy. It is the holiday season
so there may not be anyone in the office...

--Tom.



--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

solar panel delam issue
 

You were running on a run. LOL

Sounds like a haiku in the making.

wrote in message
...
On Dec 22, 11:27 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
wrote in message
....
No ideas, but I'm glad to hear all is well! An uneventful cruise?

It's been a nice run so far. Had some run ins with kelp and an attack
of dysentery but also had some lovely spinnaker runs and a pile of
fish... On the balance I think that works out in my favor!

Cheers,

--Tom.



--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

solar panel delam issue
 

" wrote in
:

On Dec 23, 12:00*pm, Larry wrote:
...
Solar panels have a long warranty period.....unless some idiot starts
usi
ng
his drill to "fix" them, of course.....

Just swap it!

You are a wise man, it seems. Just got a note from the warranty
dept. They offered to swap all the panels I bought, not just the
defective one! We'll see what really happens and how the
international logistics work out, but that's a pretty nice opening
offer. They are closed for the holidays so it will takes some weeks
at the least.. Bummer about that. Too, ripping the rack out and then
re-glassing it is a major so I don't really want to replace the whole
array.

--Tom.


Swap out them all. They probably had a bad run of a few thousand panels
that are all coming apart and trying to save face. Congratulations!

Don't just replace the one....the warranty dept knows the others will come
apart soon enough and are offering you all new ones. Glassing them is of
no consequence. CHANGE THEM ALL!

Now you have the chance of putting the new ones back where you can service
them....not glassing them into some unserviceable place. Do a better job
of planning on replacing them, this time.

solar panel delam issue
 

Larry wrote:
" wrote in
:

On Dec 23, 12:00 pm, Larry wrote:
...
Solar panels have a long warranty period.....unless some idiot starts
usi
ng
his drill to "fix" them, of course.....

Just swap it!
You are a wise man, it seems. Just got a note from the warranty
dept. They offered to swap all the panels I bought, not just the
defective one! We'll see what really happens and how the
international logistics work out, but that's a pretty nice opening
offer. They are closed for the holidays so it will takes some weeks
at the least.. Bummer about that. Too, ripping the rack out and then
re-glassing it is a major so I don't really want to replace the whole
array.

--Tom.


Swap out them all. They probably had a bad run of a few thousand panels
that are all coming apart and trying to save face. Congratulations!

Don't just replace the one....the warranty dept knows the others will come
apart soon enough and are offering you all new ones. Glassing them is of
no consequence. CHANGE THEM ALL!

Now you have the chance of putting the new ones back where you can service
them....not glassing them into some unserviceable place. Do a better job
of planning on replacing them, this time.

Well, I'll make a note of Kyocera for solar stuff. Companies that stand
behind their products like that deserve our support and are the only
ones that come out smelling like roses from a customer difficulty on
USENET :-) I've seen it go otherwise with other companies and it isn't
pretty . . .

Might be worth asking them very nicely if they will reset the clock on
your warranty with the new panels. After all, you are going to be out
the cost of fitting the new panels and got less than half the design
life out of the old ones.

While you are swapping them over, if its a nice day, it might be
interesting to compare the output side by side and see how that ratio
compares to the ratio between the data-sheet ratings. That should tell
us if there has been any unseen degradation of the other old panels
which may be of interest to other users.

solar panel delam issue
 

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 06:13:11 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Dec 23, 4:41*am, pirate wrote:
*How old are the panels??

They are just under 9 years old. They are supposed to be warranted
for 20 but there may not be a practical way to get a replacement to me
here in Baja Mexico... I just don't know yet. I have sent Kyocera an
email and attempted a phone call but no joy. It is the holiday season
so there may not be anyone in the office...

--Tom.

It may be possible to solder new connections to the cells. I have
never done this but there was a guy here that "specialized" in finding
scrapped panels and repairing them. He told me that you could solder
to the traces between cells.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

solar panel delam issue
 

On Dec 23, 3:01*pm, Larry wrote:
....
Swap out them all. *They probably had a bad run of a few thousand panels
that are all coming apart and trying to save face. *Congratulations!

Don't just replace the one....the warranty dept knows the others will come
apart soon enough and are offering you all new ones. *Glassing them is of
no consequence. *CHANGE THEM ALL!

Now you have the chance of putting the new ones back where you can service
them....not glassing them into some unserviceable place. *Do a better job
of planning on replacing them, this time.

Yes, yes, yes. I know I'm being lazy. Still, I resent having to
stick around one place for a month or whatever. They will not even be
back to work until the 5th and then the panels need to get through
customs and then out to the frontier... The replacement panels are
slightly differently sized so everything will need to be re-done.
And, I didn't make taking them off easy because they were supposed to
last 25 years -- I figured it would be some other guys problem. I
hate it when my sins come back to bite me in the fleshy bits...

All that said, the offer, unsolicited, to replace all of the panels
and cover all the shipping costs is a hell of a fine way to treat a
customer. I'm very impressed.

--Tom.

solar panel delam issue
 

" wrote in news:117bf234-b8d7-4076-
:

All that said, the offer, unsolicited, to replace all of the panels
and cover all the shipping costs is a hell of a fine way to treat a
customer. I'm very impressed.

--Tom.



I am, too. I bought a nice Canon A70 digital camera from a thrift shop for
$10 that didn't work. The CCD image sensor was dead. I went to Canon's
website looking to send it back in for service. What I found was they had
a bad spate of CCDs and would replace them for life with a new, improved
CCD. So, I filled in the form and explained I wasn't the original owner
and had bought it as-is. Canon responded by sending me a UPS 2-day
shipping label, at their expense, with instructions on how to pack the
camera safely for shipment. They replaced the CCD, cleaned the camera like
new replacing a scratched bezel, I think they also worked on the shutter
that covers the lens when you turn the camera off as it worked much better
after it came back. The lenses had been re-surfaced and the camera works
perfectly, now. Didn't cost me a dime....What a great company Canon is.