On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:14:12 -0400, Jeff wrote:

* wrote, On 7/24/2007 6:09 AM:
...

You can use it to check everything - charging? It will climb up to
about 14.4 volts and then drop off to about 13.6, or if you are using
a manual charger you can monitor voltages and switch the charger at
the appropriate time. How much power are your nav lights using just
switch them on and check the voltage. Ho! Ho! Turned the lights on and
the voltage driopped 0.1 volts at 12.7 volts. A little math and you
know how much power yout lights draw.

What math is that? How does the voltage drop at the battery tell you
the Amperage its delivery?

BTW, I agree about the DVM, its essential on any boat that has more
than a minimal electrical system. Better yet is an Amp-hour meter,
certainly pricey but worth every penny if you have larger loads, such
as a fridge, and tend to live off-grid.

I had, foolishly, assumed that he knew the resistance of the devise,
mainly I guess because the O.P. was talking about a low amperage mast
head light.

The problem with the amp hour meters is (I suspect) they aren't very
accurate. I admit that I've only read the manual on a couple of
different makes but they both talked about initializing the meters and
then later into the manual they mention that you need to re-initialize
(or maybe they said "zero") the meters from time to time..

I quite like the basic idea but given that as the battery ages the
charging time changes I cannot see how the meter can be absolutely
accurate and if it is only approximately then I can envision problems
although it certainly seems to make things simpler.










Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

* wrote, On 7/24/2007 11:10 AM:
The problem with the amp hour meters is (I suspect) they aren't very
accurate. I admit that I've only read the manual on a couple of
different makes but they both talked about initializing the meters and
then later into the manual they mention that you need to re-initialize
(or maybe they said "zero") the meters from time to time..


They are quite accurate in a sense, but I think mine gets confused by
the number and variety of charge sources and sinks. This leads it to
automatically adjust its concept of charge efficiency poorly.
Recently I realized it was using 73% when a better choice was 87%.
However, if you understand that is happening, its easy to compensate.
In my case, I knew that it was losing about 15 Amp-hours a day. A
few hours of charging, as when powering through Wood's Hole is enough
to reset the meter. On a day by day basis, when my alternator charge
rate drops down to around 40 Amps, I know the 450 Amp-hour bank is at
about 90%.

I quite like the basic idea but given that as the battery ages the
charging time changes I cannot see how the meter can be absolutely
accurate and if it is only approximately then I can envision problems
although it certainly seems to make things simpler.


Its better on the usage side than on the charging side. But still,
its infinitely better than nothing.

On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:09:20 -0400, Jeff wrote:

* wrote, On 7/24/2007 11:10 AM:
The problem with the amp hour meters is (I suspect) they aren't very
accurate. I admit that I've only read the manual on a couple of
different makes but they both talked about initializing the meters and
then later into the manual they mention that you need to re-initialize
(or maybe they said "zero") the meters from time to time..


They are quite accurate in a sense, but I think mine gets confused by
the number and variety of charge sources and sinks. This leads it to
automatically adjust its concept of charge efficiency poorly.
Recently I realized it was using 73% when a better choice was 87%.
However, if you understand that is happening, its easy to compensate.
In my case, I knew that it was losing about 15 Amp-hours a day. A
few hours of charging, as when powering through Wood's Hole is enough
to reset the meter. On a day by day basis, when my alternator charge
rate drops down to around 40 Amps, I know the 450 Amp-hour bank is at
about 90%.

I quite like the basic idea but given that as the battery ages the
charging time changes I cannot see how the meter can be absolutely
accurate and if it is only approximately then I can envision problems
although it certainly seems to make things simpler.


Its better on the usage side than on the charging side. But still,
its infinitely better than nothing.

Well, yes. The output side is just amps times time but when you start
charging it gets difficult as depending on the battery's age you may
need to put back 110% - 125% - ???% of the amp hours that you have
used. This was the part I never could figure out how to compensate
for.

For the moment I use a volt meter and keep a watch on the voltage. I
guess it is sort of a mental gage but I wish someone would invent one
that maybe measured S.G. and compensated for that, automatically
compensate for the ageing battery bank.


Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:14:13 +0700, wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:09:20 -0400, Jeff wrote:

* wrote, On 7/24/2007 11:10 AM:
The problem with the amp hour meters is (I suspect) they aren't very
accurate. I admit that I've only read the manual on a couple of
different makes but they both talked about initializing the meters and
then later into the manual they mention that you need to re-initialize
(or maybe they said "zero") the meters from time to time..


They are quite accurate in a sense, but I think mine gets confused by
the number and variety of charge sources and sinks. This leads it to
automatically adjust its concept of charge efficiency poorly.
Recently I realized it was using 73% when a better choice was 87%.
However, if you understand that is happening, its easy to compensate.
In my case, I knew that it was losing about 15 Amp-hours a day. A
few hours of charging, as when powering through Wood's Hole is enough
to reset the meter. On a day by day basis, when my alternator charge
rate drops down to around 40 Amps, I know the 450 Amp-hour bank is at
about 90%.

I quite like the basic idea but given that as the battery ages the
charging time changes I cannot see how the meter can be absolutely
accurate and if it is only approximately then I can envision problems
although it certainly seems to make things simpler.


Its better on the usage side than on the charging side. But still,
its infinitely better than nothing.

Well, yes. The output side is just amps times time but when you start
charging it gets difficult as depending on the battery's age you may
need to put back 110% - 125% - ???% of the amp hours that you have
used. This was the part I never could figure out how to compensate
for.

For the moment I use a volt meter and keep a watch on the voltage. I
guess it is sort of a mental gage but I wish someone would invent one
that maybe measured S.G. and compensated for that, automatically
compensate for the ageing battery bank.

Bruce and anyone else interested...............
Take a look at www.smartgauge.co.uk
I have a customer that has a Smartgauge and a BMV501 on board. He was
concerned that the BMV was indicating the bank at 86% when the
Smartgauge showed 53%. His bank was sulphated and the Smartgauge was
correct. Continuous Equalisation charges brought his bank back up
(luckily). I put my money on the Smartgauge, And yes I sell them and
fit them but you make your own decisions ;-)



--
Richard

Nb "Pound Eater" Parkend G+S
"Governments are like Nappies, they should be changed often."
(For the same reason)

On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:41:29 +0100, Electricky Dicky
wrote:

On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:14:13 +0700, wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:09:20 -0400, Jeff wrote:

* wrote, On 7/24/2007 11:10 AM:
The problem with the amp hour meters is (I suspect) they aren't very
accurate. I admit that I've only read the manual on a couple of
different makes but they both talked about initializing the meters and
then later into the manual they mention that you need to re-initialize
(or maybe they said "zero") the meters from time to time..


They are quite accurate in a sense, but I think mine gets confused by
the number and variety of charge sources and sinks. This leads it to
automatically adjust its concept of charge efficiency poorly.
Recently I realized it was using 73% when a better choice was 87%.
However, if you understand that is happening, its easy to compensate.
In my case, I knew that it was losing about 15 Amp-hours a day. A
few hours of charging, as when powering through Wood's Hole is enough
to reset the meter. On a day by day basis, when my alternator charge
rate drops down to around 40 Amps, I know the 450 Amp-hour bank is at
about 90%.

I quite like the basic idea but given that as the battery ages the
charging time changes I cannot see how the meter can be absolutely
accurate and if it is only approximately then I can envision problems
although it certainly seems to make things simpler.


Its better on the usage side than on the charging side. But still,
its infinitely better than nothing.

Well, yes. The output side is just amps times time but when you start
charging it gets difficult as depending on the battery's age you may
need to put back 110% - 125% - ???% of the amp hours that you have
used. This was the part I never could figure out how to compensate
for.

For the moment I use a volt meter and keep a watch on the voltage. I
guess it is sort of a mental gage but I wish someone would invent one
that maybe measured S.G. and compensated for that, automatically
compensate for the ageing battery bank.

Bruce and anyone else interested...............
Take a look at www.smartgauge.co.uk
I have a customer that has a Smartgauge and a BMV501 on board. He was
concerned that the BMV was indicating the bank at 86% when the
Smartgauge showed 53%. His bank was sulphated and the Smartgauge was
correct. Continuous Equalisation charges brought his bank back up
(luckily). I put my money on the Smartgauge, And yes I sell them and
fit them but you make your own decisions ;-)

Thanks for info. I started to read your technical section and the
lights went out but will do more studying later. I've always liked the
idea of a meter that showed amps in/amps out but never was able to
figure out a method of outwitting the time necessary for the chemical
changes to take place during the charging phase.


Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

On Jul 25, 10:46 am, wrote:

Thanks for info. I started to read your technical section and the
lights went out but will do more studying later. I've always liked the
idea of a meter that showed amps in/amps out but never was able to
figure out a method of outwitting the time necessary for the chemical
changes to take place during the charging phase.

Hi,

Just google for 'battery conductance tester', that's basically what it
is.

Whether it's worth having or not IMHO depends largely on whether the
prospective user knows little about electrics and isn't able to use a
hydrometer.

cheers,
Pete.

"Pete C" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jul 25, 10:46 am, wrote:

Thanks for info. I started to read your technical section and the
lights went out but will do more studying later. I've always liked the
idea of a meter that showed amps in/amps out but never was able to
figure out a method of outwitting the time necessary for the chemical
changes to take place during the charging phase.

Hi,

Just google for 'battery conductance tester', that's basically what it
is.

Whether it's worth having or not IMHO depends largely on whether the
prospective user knows little about electrics and isn't able to use a
hydrometer.

cheers,
Pete.



Pete, do you propose using a hydrometer everytime you want to know your
state of charge? This could be a couple of times each day, or more.

wrote in news:h06ea3pvefm90fn3l6hjkk4adogf34nof3@
4ax.com:

never was able to
figure out a method of outwitting the time necessary for the chemical
changes to take place during the charging phase.



Lemme know if you outwit it. We'll be billionaires!

The Japanese have come really close, of late:

Google "nanotube lithium ion battery"
and read some of the new articles. Very interesting battery technology is
just over that hill over there!

Larry
--
While in Mexico, I didn't have to press 1 for Spanish.
While in Iran, I didn't have to press 1 for Farsi, either.
While in Florida, I had to press 2 for English.
It just isn't fair.

On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 16:46:45 +0700, wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:41:29 +0100, Electricky Dicky
wrote:

On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:14:13 +0700, wrote:

Bruce and anyone else interested...............
Take a look at www.smartgauge.co.uk
I have a customer that has a Smartgauge and a BMV501 on board. He was
concerned that the BMV was indicating the bank at 86% when the
Smartgauge showed 53%. His bank was sulphated and the Smartgauge was
correct. Continuous Equalisation charges brought his bank back up
(luckily). I put my money on the Smartgauge, And yes I sell them and
fit them but you make your own decisions ;-)

Thanks for info. I started to read your technical section and the
lights went out but will do more studying later. I've always liked the
idea of a meter that showed amps in/amps out but never was able to
figure out a method of outwitting the time necessary for the chemical
changes to take place during the charging phase.


Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)
I hope that you enjoy a long read ;-)

BTW as I said I sell and fit them however I do not design and
manufacture them, and its not my site.


--
Richard

Nb "Pound Eater" Parkend G+S
"Governments are like Nappies, they should be changed often."
(For the same reason)