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#1
posted to rec.boats.cruising,rec.boats.building
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Amps, etc.
On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 03:00:33 -0000, Skip Gundlach
wrote: On Jul 23, 12:59 pm, Bob wrote: On Jul 23, 8:32 am, Skip Gundlach wrote: July 19th - I go in with one of the two spare alternators I have, and change it out, on the thought that perhaps the one which has been on the engine since we bought it was somehow defective. Ever hopeful, perhaps this one is 70 amps? Nope. Same basic output. If we load up everything possible at the same time, it's more than the alternator can supply, let alone fill the battery with the excess. Skip............. just how many amps do you use in a day?!?!!!!? Bob Hi, Bob, We don't yet know. We're gong to do an energy audit, prolly tomorrow, to see just exactly how much each item uses. However, the root of the problem was twofold. We didn't have an effective shore power charger, for some extended period of time (we don't know how long, as it was just discovered). That meant that we were being profligate with our 12V ashore and at the dock, and running our entire, or a major part of the, load, on just the solar and wind. At the dock and at the stands, that was pretty low as compared to being out in the briny. The second problem was that, as we were motoring for most of this trip, and assuming we had plenty of amps to use pretty much whatever we wanted while motoring, in fact, either the belt was slipping and/or the alternator was not putting out enough to replace the amps being used and recharging that which was being taken otherwise. So, for a long time, and in particular in the last week, our batteries have been in severe deficit. However, they're now up to snuff, the shorepower charger does a great job in keeping up and dumping power into the battery, and the wind and solar are now again making meaningful contributions to our overall operation. We're taking all the alternators to be tested tomorrow; if they aren't up to snuff (the one I'd just put on didn't put out at all), we're in for new alternators of higher output. I've got responses from several sources about the means to achieve that in the same mounting as I have, so I'm hopeful we'll be fine about it. Once we've proven our charging sources, we'll go on the hook and prove our ability to live in our budget. Of course, in the end, it's pretty simple. We modify our lifestyle to accommodate our electrical income. If we can't make it work, we'll break out the Honda genset. If we find we use that all the time, we'll figure out some means to make it reasonable to do so. We planned on using it regularly, in any event, for powering our hookah rig, so I'm currently looking for something which won't outgas to hold the gasoline, as it uses straight, vs our outboards which are 2 cycle, and, in particular, doesn't use much of it, so we'll have small usage and some storage issues. Thanks for the interest. Stay tuned in the coming posts about our actual resolutions... L8R Skip Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog "You are never given a wish without also being given the power to make it come true. You may have to work for it however." (and) "There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in its hands. You seek problems because you need their gifts." (Richard Bach, in The Reluctant Messiah) L8R Skip Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog "You are never given a wish without also being given the power to make it come true. You may have to work for it however." (and) "There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in its hands. You seek problems because you need their gifts." (Richard Bach, in The Reluctant Messiah)to your system. Skip, I strongly suggest that you get a digital voltmeter with at least one decimil place readout and wire it into your system. Use a selector switch so that you can read the voltage of any battery bank. It is priceless for monitoring what is going on with the electrons. The one I have is a LED readout so it is easy to see at night. You can use it to check everything - charging? It will climb up to about 14.4 volts and then drop off to about 13.6, or if you are using a manual charger you can monitor voltages and switch the charger at the appropriate time. How much power are your nav lights using just switch them on and check the voltage. Ho! Ho! Turned the lights on and the voltage driopped 0.1 volts at 12.7 volts. A little math and you know how much power yout lights draw. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
#2
posted to rec.boats.cruising,rec.boats.building
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Amps, etc.
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#4
posted to rec.boats.cruising,rec.boats.building
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Amps, etc.
* RW Salnick wrote, On 7/24/2007 10:23 AM:
BTW, I agree about the DVM, its essential on any boat that has more than a minimal electrical system. Better yet is an Amp-hour meter, certainly pricey but worth every penny if you have larger loads, such as a fridge, and tend to live off-grid. I second the comment that you need a way to monitor amp-hours in and out of your batteries - it is the only real "fuel gauge" for batteries that there is. And it is essential if you are not living plugged into shore power. We have a Link 2000 and I absolutely love it. Yes, I love mine also. Since we have a single house bank, and the stating batteries don't need a meter, we run the fridge through the second leg of the meter so we can monitor its usage day by day. One must be careful though - our meter has a "drift" that I've never been able to adjust out. I've found that the best measure of battery state (other than specific gravity) is actually the charge rate. In any case, I read the monitor several times a day so that I don't get caught by surprise. |
#5
posted to rec.boats.cruising,rec.boats.building
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Amps, etc.
On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:14:12 -0400, Jeff wrote:
* wrote, On 7/24/2007 6:09 AM: ... You can use it to check everything - charging? It will climb up to about 14.4 volts and then drop off to about 13.6, or if you are using a manual charger you can monitor voltages and switch the charger at the appropriate time. How much power are your nav lights using just switch them on and check the voltage. Ho! Ho! Turned the lights on and the voltage driopped 0.1 volts at 12.7 volts. A little math and you know how much power yout lights draw. What math is that? How does the voltage drop at the battery tell you the Amperage its delivery? BTW, I agree about the DVM, its essential on any boat that has more than a minimal electrical system. Better yet is an Amp-hour meter, certainly pricey but worth every penny if you have larger loads, such as a fridge, and tend to live off-grid. I had, foolishly, assumed that he knew the resistance of the devise, mainly I guess because the O.P. was talking about a low amperage mast head light. The problem with the amp hour meters is (I suspect) they aren't very accurate. I admit that I've only read the manual on a couple of different makes but they both talked about initializing the meters and then later into the manual they mention that you need to re-initialize (or maybe they said "zero") the meters from time to time.. I quite like the basic idea but given that as the battery ages the charging time changes I cannot see how the meter can be absolutely accurate and if it is only approximately then I can envision problems although it certainly seems to make things simpler. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
#6
posted to rec.boats.cruising,rec.boats.building
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Amps, etc.
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#7
posted to rec.boats.cruising,rec.boats.building
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Amps, etc.
On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:09:20 -0400, Jeff wrote:
* wrote, On 7/24/2007 11:10 AM: The problem with the amp hour meters is (I suspect) they aren't very accurate. I admit that I've only read the manual on a couple of different makes but they both talked about initializing the meters and then later into the manual they mention that you need to re-initialize (or maybe they said "zero") the meters from time to time.. They are quite accurate in a sense, but I think mine gets confused by the number and variety of charge sources and sinks. This leads it to automatically adjust its concept of charge efficiency poorly. Recently I realized it was using 73% when a better choice was 87%. However, if you understand that is happening, its easy to compensate. In my case, I knew that it was losing about 15 Amp-hours a day. A few hours of charging, as when powering through Wood's Hole is enough to reset the meter. On a day by day basis, when my alternator charge rate drops down to around 40 Amps, I know the 450 Amp-hour bank is at about 90%. I quite like the basic idea but given that as the battery ages the charging time changes I cannot see how the meter can be absolutely accurate and if it is only approximately then I can envision problems although it certainly seems to make things simpler. Its better on the usage side than on the charging side. But still, its infinitely better than nothing. Well, yes. The output side is just amps times time but when you start charging it gets difficult as depending on the battery's age you may need to put back 110% - 125% - ???% of the amp hours that you have used. This was the part I never could figure out how to compensate for. For the moment I use a volt meter and keep a watch on the voltage. I guess it is sort of a mental gage but I wish someone would invent one that maybe measured S.G. and compensated for that, automatically compensate for the ageing battery bank. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
#8
posted to rec.boats.cruising,rec.boats.building
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Amps, etc.
On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:14:13 +0700, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:09:20 -0400, Jeff wrote: * wrote, On 7/24/2007 11:10 AM: The problem with the amp hour meters is (I suspect) they aren't very accurate. I admit that I've only read the manual on a couple of different makes but they both talked about initializing the meters and then later into the manual they mention that you need to re-initialize (or maybe they said "zero") the meters from time to time.. They are quite accurate in a sense, but I think mine gets confused by the number and variety of charge sources and sinks. This leads it to automatically adjust its concept of charge efficiency poorly. Recently I realized it was using 73% when a better choice was 87%. However, if you understand that is happening, its easy to compensate. In my case, I knew that it was losing about 15 Amp-hours a day. A few hours of charging, as when powering through Wood's Hole is enough to reset the meter. On a day by day basis, when my alternator charge rate drops down to around 40 Amps, I know the 450 Amp-hour bank is at about 90%. I quite like the basic idea but given that as the battery ages the charging time changes I cannot see how the meter can be absolutely accurate and if it is only approximately then I can envision problems although it certainly seems to make things simpler. Its better on the usage side than on the charging side. But still, its infinitely better than nothing. Well, yes. The output side is just amps times time but when you start charging it gets difficult as depending on the battery's age you may need to put back 110% - 125% - ???% of the amp hours that you have used. This was the part I never could figure out how to compensate for. For the moment I use a volt meter and keep a watch on the voltage. I guess it is sort of a mental gage but I wish someone would invent one that maybe measured S.G. and compensated for that, automatically compensate for the ageing battery bank. Bruce and anyone else interested............... Take a look at www.smartgauge.co.uk I have a customer that has a Smartgauge and a BMV501 on board. He was concerned that the BMV was indicating the bank at 86% when the Smartgauge showed 53%. His bank was sulphated and the Smartgauge was correct. Continuous Equalisation charges brought his bank back up (luckily). I put my money on the Smartgauge, And yes I sell them and fit them but you make your own decisions ;-) -- Richard Nb "Pound Eater" Parkend G+S "Governments are like Nappies, they should be changed often." (For the same reason) |
#9
posted to rec.boats.cruising,rec.boats.building
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Amps, etc.
On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:41:29 +0100, Electricky Dicky
wrote: On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:14:13 +0700, wrote: On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:09:20 -0400, Jeff wrote: * wrote, On 7/24/2007 11:10 AM: The problem with the amp hour meters is (I suspect) they aren't very accurate. I admit that I've only read the manual on a couple of different makes but they both talked about initializing the meters and then later into the manual they mention that you need to re-initialize (or maybe they said "zero") the meters from time to time.. They are quite accurate in a sense, but I think mine gets confused by the number and variety of charge sources and sinks. This leads it to automatically adjust its concept of charge efficiency poorly. Recently I realized it was using 73% when a better choice was 87%. However, if you understand that is happening, its easy to compensate. In my case, I knew that it was losing about 15 Amp-hours a day. A few hours of charging, as when powering through Wood's Hole is enough to reset the meter. On a day by day basis, when my alternator charge rate drops down to around 40 Amps, I know the 450 Amp-hour bank is at about 90%. I quite like the basic idea but given that as the battery ages the charging time changes I cannot see how the meter can be absolutely accurate and if it is only approximately then I can envision problems although it certainly seems to make things simpler. Its better on the usage side than on the charging side. But still, its infinitely better than nothing. Well, yes. The output side is just amps times time but when you start charging it gets difficult as depending on the battery's age you may need to put back 110% - 125% - ???% of the amp hours that you have used. This was the part I never could figure out how to compensate for. For the moment I use a volt meter and keep a watch on the voltage. I guess it is sort of a mental gage but I wish someone would invent one that maybe measured S.G. and compensated for that, automatically compensate for the ageing battery bank. Bruce and anyone else interested............... Take a look at www.smartgauge.co.uk I have a customer that has a Smartgauge and a BMV501 on board. He was concerned that the BMV was indicating the bank at 86% when the Smartgauge showed 53%. His bank was sulphated and the Smartgauge was correct. Continuous Equalisation charges brought his bank back up (luckily). I put my money on the Smartgauge, And yes I sell them and fit them but you make your own decisions ;-) Thanks for info. I started to read your technical section and the lights went out but will do more studying later. I've always liked the idea of a meter that showed amps in/amps out but never was able to figure out a method of outwitting the time necessary for the chemical changes to take place during the charging phase. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
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