Hi group,

If one were to sheath an unstayed, solid (grown) wooden mast with
unidirectional fibreglass and epoxy (painted over for UV protection),
would the sheathing eventually embrittle and fail? I'm thinking that
an unstayed mast goes through far more flexion cycles and flexes much
further than a stayed mast.

Thoughts?

-Maxime Camirand

Max,

Warning: The following answer may be too Engineerese for the general
public, my appollogies in in advance.

The real value of any modern woodworking epoxy is in it's capability to
saturate into the surface of wood and the fact that it remains flexible.

Yes, an unstayed mast will have higher flexural loads than a stayed
mast, but if you do the glass/epoxy correctly it will be the loaded
element and the wood will largely just hold it to form. As it is not a
case where the wood core could flex and the glass/epoxy would not, there
should be little shear load available to cause the separation of the two.

The matrix overlay will have to be carefully designed and assembled to
achieve stiffness as and where required and then taper as required to
not cause an abrupt change in stiffness at as undesired location.

Unidirection glass tows would be and interesting way to do this, but you
must be careful to cause hard spots as the section reduces (tapers).
Any place that parallel fibers overlap, this is a possible issue.

I have had several applications that were in sunlight for many years
without exhibiting any characteristics that caused me any concern at all.

Was this rig designed to use a solid wood unstayed mast (like many old
Catboats)?

If that is the case, what do you hope to gain?

Matt Colie


max camirand wrote:
Hi group,

If one were to sheath an unstayed, solid (grown) wooden mast with
unidirectional fibreglass and epoxy (painted over for UV protection),
would the sheathing eventually embrittle and fail? I'm thinking that
an unstayed mast goes through far more flexion cycles and flexes much
further than a stayed mast.

Thoughts?

-Maxime Camirand

epoxies can be formulated from super brittle to max flex. Marine epoxies
tend to be very brittle (no no wants a flexing boat). You just need to
select the correct epoxy which you will not find in a marine supply store.

paul oman
progressive epoxy polymers




max camirand wrote:

Hi group,

If one were to sheath an unstayed, solid (grown) wooden mast with
unidirectional fibreglass and epoxy (painted over for UV protection),
would the sheathing eventually embrittle and fail? I'm thinking that
an unstayed mast goes through far more flexion cycles and flexes much
further than a stayed mast.

Thoughts?

-Maxime Camirand

Thanks for the replies, Paul and Matt.

I understand that once you get to a certain thickness of layup, the
fibreglass begins to take the load while the wood inside acts simply
as a core. I also understand the concept of hard spots. I don't plan
on carefully designing this sheathing, though. This rig is designed
for a solid wood unstayed mast. What I hope to gain from sheating
isn't an increase in strength, it's protection from rot, reduction of
maintenance (no need to oil the mast) and elimination of mast chafe. I
was planning on one layer of cloth only. That's why I imagine that
I'll be in a situation where the mast is flexing as much as the wood
will allow it, and the fibreglass is simply following. That's why I
could be exceeding the epoxy's capability to flex. There's also the
shear force underneath the layup to consider.

Maybe there are different materials I could consider? I've heard of
plastic cloth and other resins (besides polyester, which is out for
obvious reasons), but I don't know much about them.

Paul: You mentioned that flexible epoxies are available, but not from
marine stores. Where could I find it?

Regards,
-Max Camirand

Paul
On Apr 18, 8:32 am, Matt Colie wrote:
Max,

Warning: The following answer may be too Engineerese for the general
public, my appollogies in in advance.

The real value of any modern woodworking epoxy is in it's capability to
saturate into the surface of wood and the fact that it remains flexible.

Yes, an unstayed mast will have higher flexural loads than a stayed
mast, but if you do the glass/epoxy correctly it will be the loaded
element and the wood will largely just hold it to form. As it is not a
case where the wood core could flex and the glass/epoxy would not, there
should be little shear load available to cause the separation of the two.

The matrix overlay will have to be carefully designed and assembled to
achieve stiffness as and where required and then taper as required to
not cause an abrupt change in stiffness at as undesired location.

Unidirection glass tows would be and interesting way to do this, but you
must be careful to cause hard spots as the section reduces (tapers).
Any place that parallel fibers overlap, this is a possible issue.

I have had several applications that were in sunlight for many years
without exhibiting any characteristics that caused me any concern at all.

Was this rig designed to use a solid wood unstayed mast (like many old
Catboats)?

If that is the case, what do you hope to gain?

Matt Colie

Paul (part 2)

I have found for max reduction in 'brightwork' seal with solvent
thinned epoxy then topcoat with varnish then optionally a 2 part clear
poly with UV blockers (hard to find)

If pigmented surface I would use a pigmented moisture cured urethane as
the primer and sealer then enamel over that.

the next step up would be your 1 coat of glass over either the thinned
epoxy primer or the moisture cured urethane, in which case, use a flex
based epoxy paint.

any version of these systems will handle the flexing of the mast.

The right 'primer' over the exposed wood no matter what you do, is
probably the critical step. There are several 'grades/classes' of
primers -
commercial primers are not will explained or understood very well
outside the painting contractor market. Most folks just think in terms
of water or oil based primers and perhaps also epoxy primers.

Note that area specific VOC regulations are making it harder or
impossible to often get the best products for the job. It is not science
or technology that develop new coatings but rather lawyers and
regulatory groups. What you can apply in MI is different from what you
can apply in NY or CA. so location makes a big difference in your options.


email me privately for specific product names and locations

paul oman

Progressive Epoxy Polymers, inc.



max camirand wrote:

Thanks for the replies, Paul and Matt.

I understand that once you get to a certain thickness of layup, the
fibreglass begins to take the load while the wood inside acts simply
as a core. I also understand the concept of hard spots. I don't plan
on carefully designing this sheathing, though. This rig is designed
for a solid wood unstayed mast. What I hope to gain from sheating
isn't an increase in strength, it's protection from rot, reduction of
maintenance (no need to oil the mast) and elimination of mast chafe. I
was planning on one layer of cloth only. That's why I imagine that
I'll be in a situation where the mast is flexing as much as the wood
will allow it, and the fibreglass is simply following. That's why I
could be exceeding the epoxy's capability to flex. There's also the
shear force underneath the layup to consider.

Maybe there are different materials I could consider? I've heard of
plastic cloth and other resins (besides polyester, which is out for
obvious reasons), but I don't know much about them.

Paul: You mentioned that flexible epoxies are available, but not from
marine stores. Where could I find it?

Regards,
-Max Camirand

Paul
On Apr 18, 8:32 am, Matt Colie wrote:


Max,

Warning: The following answer may be too Engineerese for the general
public, my appollogies in in advance.

The real value of any modern woodworking epoxy is in it's capability to
saturate into the surface of wood and the fact that it remains flexible.

Yes, an unstayed mast will have higher flexural loads than a stayed
mast, but if you do the glass/epoxy correctly it will be the loaded
element and the wood will largely just hold it to form. As it is not a
case where the wood core could flex and the glass/epoxy would not, there
should be little shear load available to cause the separation of the two.

The matrix overlay will have to be carefully designed and assembled to
achieve stiffness as and where required and then taper as required to
not cause an abrupt change in stiffness at as undesired location.

Unidirection glass tows would be and interesting way to do this, but you
must be careful to cause hard spots as the section reduces (tapers).
Any place that parallel fibers overlap, this is a possible issue.

I have had several applications that were in sunlight for many years
without exhibiting any characteristics that caused me any concern at all.

Was this rig designed to use a solid wood unstayed mast (like many old
Catboats)?

If that is the case, what do you hope to gain?

Matt Colie

max camirand wrote:
Hi group,

If one were to sheath an unstayed, solid (grown) wooden mast with
unidirectional fibreglass and epoxy (painted over for UV
protection), would the sheathing eventually embrittle and fail? I'm
thinking that an unstayed mast goes through far more flexion cycles
and flexes much further than a stayed mast.

Thoughts?

Fiberglass and whatever over solid wood is not good.

Painting a solid mast is not good (can't see what is happening to it).


--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

"dadiOH" writes:

max camirand wrote:
Hi group,

If one were to sheath an unstayed, solid (grown) wooden mast with
unidirectional fibreglass and epoxy (painted over for UV
protection), would the sheathing eventually embrittle and fail? I'm
thinking that an unstayed mast goes through far more flexion cycles
and flexes much further than a stayed mast.

Thoughts?

Fiberglass and whatever over solid wood is not good.

Really?
Built 1985-6: http://hem.bredband.net/b262106/Boat/build.html
Sailing 2006: http://hem.bredband.net/b262106/Boat/video.html

--
Martin Schöön "Problems worthy of attack
show their worth by hitting back."
Piet Hein

Martin Schöön wrote:
"dadiOH" writes:

max camirand wrote:
Hi group,

If one were to sheath an unstayed, solid (grown) wooden mast with
unidirectional fibreglass and epoxy (painted over for UV
protection), would the sheathing eventually embrittle and fail?
I'm thinking that an unstayed mast goes through far more flexion
cycles and flexes much further than a stayed mast.

Thoughts?

Fiberglass and whatever over solid wood is not good.

Really?

Yeah. Can't say I consider 8mm as "solid wood".


--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

"dadiOH" writes:

Martin Schöön wrote:
"dadiOH" writes:

max camirand wrote:
Hi group,

If one were to sheath an unstayed, solid (grown) wooden mast with
unidirectional fibreglass and epoxy (painted over for UV
protection), would the sheathing eventually embrittle and fail?
I'm thinking that an unstayed mast goes through far more flexion
cycles and flexes much further than a stayed mast.

Thoughts?

Fiberglass and whatever over solid wood is not good.

Really?

Yeah. Can't say I consider 8mm as "solid wood".

It is a small boat. Bigger boats use thicker wood and you
have things like wood cored dagger boards sheathed in glass/epoxy.

--
Martin Schöön

"Problems worthy of attack
prove their worth by hitting back"
Piet Hein