What would be the best place in the world to build a wooden boat from
the ground up?

Money is always an issue, but I'm also looking for a professional
boatyard that can make the right job, since the hull is going to have
an aluminum structure inside a composite sandwich filled with
polyuretane.

Many years ago, Malaysia and thereabouts used to have a few cheap and
proficient boatyards.

Many Thanks

Philippine has more than seven thousand Islands. You may consider it.

"nautiK" wrote in message
ups.com...
What would be the best place in the world to build a wooden boat from
the ground up?

Money is always an issue, but I'm also looking for a professional
boatyard that can make the right job, since the hull is going to have
an aluminum structure inside a composite sandwich filled with
polyuretane.

Many years ago, Malaysia and thereabouts used to have a few cheap and
proficient boatyards.

Many Thanks

On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 00:18:07 -0700, "My news" wrote:

Philippine has more than seven thousand Islands. You may consider it.

"nautiK" wrote in message
oups.com...
What would be the best place in the world to build a wooden boat from
the ground up?

Money is always an issue, but I'm also looking for a professional
boatyard that can make the right job, since the hull is going to have
an aluminum structure inside a composite sandwich filled with
polyuretane.

Many years ago, Malaysia and thereabouts used to have a few cheap and
proficient boatyards.

Many Thanks


You need to be a little more specific. A wooden boat with an aluminum
structure inside a composite sandwich filled with polyuretane? What
size? Length, breadth, depth, displacement, sail or power?

Do you expect the yard to be proficient in all these materials or will
there be a project engineer to supervise and manage the various parts
of the project?


Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeatgmaildotcom)

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Jun 16, 3:19 pm, Bruce wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 00:18:07 -0700, "My news" wrote:
Philippine has more than seven thousand Islands. You may consider it.

"nautiK" wrote in message
oups.com...
What would be the best place in the world to build a wooden boat from
the ground up?

Money is always an issue, but I'm also looking for a professional
boatyard that can make the right job, since the hull is going to have
an aluminum structure inside a composite sandwich filled with
polyuretane.

Many years ago, Malaysia and thereabouts used to have a few cheap and
proficient boatyards.

Many Thanks

You need to be a little more specific. A wooden boat with an aluminum
structure inside a composite sandwich filled with polyuretane? What
size? Length, breadth, depth, displacement, sail or power?
A sailing catamaran.
28 ft or so
No plans yet, all in my head.
It has a retractable water-filled keel to be used in storm situations.
The purpose of the composite sandwich filled with polyurethane is to
make unsinkable, just as the Etap sailing boats are.
The aluminum structure inside perhaps not a good idea after all, but I
have to find a way to make it unbreakable or that at least that it
doesn't break in many pieces if it comes to the worst. (The worst
being a large ship running onto her or a coral reef ripping the hull).

Do you expect the yard to be proficient in all these materials or will
there be a project engineer to supervise and manage the various parts
of the project?

I'll be supervising the project myself.
It couldn't be any other way, even if you get me the best engineer in
the world.

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 21:02:59 -0000, nautiK
wrote:

On Jun 16, 3:19 pm, Bruce wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 00:18:07 -0700, "My news" wrote:
Philippine has more than seven thousand Islands. You may consider it.

"nautiK" wrote in message
oups.com...
What would be the best place in the world to build a wooden boat from
the ground up?

Money is always an issue, but I'm also looking for a professional
boatyard that can make the right job, since the hull is going to have
an aluminum structure inside a composite sandwich filled with
polyuretane.

Many years ago, Malaysia and thereabouts used to have a few cheap and
proficient boatyards.

Many Thanks

You need to be a little more specific. A wooden boat with an aluminum
structure inside a composite sandwich filled with polyuretane? What
size? Length, breadth, depth, displacement, sail or power?
A sailing catamaran.
28 ft or so
No plans yet, all in my head.
It has a retractable water-filled keel to be used in storm situations.
The purpose of the composite sandwich filled with polyurethane is to
make unsinkable, just as the Etap sailing boats are.
The aluminum structure inside perhaps not a good idea after all, but I
have to find a way to make it unbreakable or that at least that it
doesn't break in many pieces if it comes to the worst. (The worst
being a large ship running onto her or a coral reef ripping the hull).

Do you expect the yard to be proficient in all these materials or will
there be a project engineer to supervise and manage the various parts
of the project?

I'll be supervising the project myself.
It couldn't be any other way, even if you get me the best engineer in
the world.

I hate to critique your design parameters but:

(1) Catamarans do not need a water filled keel for stability. A cat
depends on form stability, in other words the width of the boat, to
make the boat stable. Few, if any, cats have sufficient sail area to
capsize them.

What makes cats capsize is very large breaking waves which literally
throw the boat over. The same wave will roll a ballasted mono
hull.Since a cat is in either the normal or inverted position the
ballast does no good.

(2) When you talk about polyuretane I assume that you are talking
about a cored hull, i.e., a fiberglass skin on each side of a sheet of
polyuretane. Not big blocks of foam taking space inside the boat.

(3) In the case of a large ship running over you, you are dead. It is
that simple. In the event of going on a reef in a storm it would
depend to a great extent on how big and how long the waves hammered
you against the reef. Steel ships break up in severe enough
conditions.

I have talked to an Italian fellow, with extensive experience in
composite boats (about 30 to date), who builds boats in Thailand and
he tells me that it would be impossible to predict costs without some
very explicit plans. For example, a difference in the thickness of the
core material will make several thousand dollars difference in the
price. The difference between plain woven roving or bi-axial cloth
with a chopped mat backing makes a big difference in cost and
strength. Will you lay the boat up with polyester or epoxy resin that
changes the cost by a factor of ten.

A couple of years ago I went through exactly this same exercise for a
steel hull trawler in Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia and Thailand. To
even get a guessed at price I needed to supply (1) explicit enough
drawings that the yard could calculate the total amount of steel; (2)
provide specifications on what, if any, code the boat was to be built
to; (2) provide detailed paint specifications, i.e., sand blasted with
clean, new slag, to a specified surface specification, primed within X
minutes of blasting, filler, if any used, final finish, even whether a
paint engineer would be in attendance, and a host of other details
just to be considered a serious client.

I would suggest that you first design the boat and prepare detailed
construction drawings then I can either put you in touch with several
yards in SEA or you can google your own, but to be taken as a serious
customer, one that the yards will take the time to respond to, you
will have to be prepared to provide basically final, detailed, plans
and specifications.

Finally, being your own project engineer. I assume that you do have
detailed knowledge of the various classification codes (N.V. Lloyd,
ABS, etc.) and will be able to answer the inevitable questions that
always come up when building something. A knowledge of the local
language would also be extremely useful in either Indonesia or
Thailand where English is less commonly spoken then in Singapore or
Malaysia.


Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeatgmaildotcom)

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Jun 19, 12:15 pm, Bruce wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 21:02:59 -0000, nautiK
wrote:



On Jun 16, 3:19 pm, Bruce wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 00:18:07 -0700, "My news" wrote:
Philippine has more than seven thousand Islands. You may consider it.

"nautiK" wrote in message
oups.com...
What would be the best place in the world to build a wooden boat from
the ground up?

Money is always an issue, but I'm also looking for a professional
boatyard that can make the right job, since the hull is going to have
an aluminum structure inside a composite sandwich filled with
polyuretane.

Many years ago, Malaysia and thereabouts used to have a few cheap and
proficient boatyards.

Many Thanks

You need to be a little more specific. A wooden boat with an aluminum
structure inside a composite sandwich filled with polyuretane? What
size? Length, breadth, depth, displacement, sail or power?
A sailing catamaran.
28 ft or so
No plans yet, all in my head.
It has a retractable water-filled keel to be used in storm situations.
The purpose of the composite sandwich filled with polyurethane is to
make unsinkable, just as the Etap sailing boats are.
The aluminum structure inside perhaps not a good idea after all, but I
have to find a way to make it unbreakable or that at least that it
doesn't break in many pieces if it comes to the worst. (The worst
being a large ship running onto her or a coral reef ripping the hull).

Do you expect the yard to be proficient in all these materials or will
there be a project engineer to supervise and manage the various parts
of the project?

I'll be supervising the project myself.
It couldn't be any other way, even if you get me the best engineer in
the world.

I hate to critique your design parameters but:

(1) Catamarans do not need a water filled keel for stability. A cat
depends on form stability, in other words the width of the boat, to
make the boat stable. Few, if any, cats have sufficient sail area to
capsize them.
You are right, but as you said, a few do capsize, and once they are
upside down it is almost impossible to turn them over again.
So I'm taking no risks.
I've also thought of putting some kind of floating devices on deck
that prevents it from being upside down.

What makes cats capsize is very large breaking waves which literally
throw the boat over. The same wave will roll a ballasted mono
hull.Since a cat is in either the normal or inverted position the
ballast does no good.
I disagree,
If you find a way of sinking a water-filled ballast deep enough that
will act as a powerful dragging force downwards.
I've seen a custom-made one for a small sailing boat, and it worked
great.

(2) When you talk about polyuretane I assume that you are talking
about a cored hull, i.e., a fiberglass skin on each side of a sheet of
polyuretane. Not big blocks of foam taking space inside the boat.
I'm talking about this:
In the ETAP ship-in-ship construction, the deck and hull are double-
skinned. The hollow space between the two decks and two hulls is
filled with closed-cell polyurethane foam. The closed cell structure
is almost entirely non-absorbent and gives the boat sufficient
buoyancy. Even if your ETAP yacht does spring a leak, it will remain
stable and afloat, with enough freeboard for you and your crew.
ETAP 21i hull in double-skin construction
Thanks to many years of experience, Etap can now inject most of the
foam into zones that remain unused even in single-mould boats,
minimising any loss of space. Some years ago the ETAP 30i beat
competitors to be named the boat with the largest amount of storage
space in its class!
http://www.etapmarine.com/unsinkability.php

And this:
http://www.macgregorowners.com/
http://album.sailboatowners.com/albu...rand=MacGregor

(3) In the case of a large ship running over you, you are dead. It is
that simple. In the event of going on a reef in a storm it would
depend to a great extent on how big and how long the waves hammered
you against the reef. Steel ships break up in severe enough
conditions.
That's why I want some kind of aluminum-alleation structure inside.
Or any other metal capable of withstanding the shock.

I have talked to an Italian fellow, with extensive experience in
composite boats (about 30 to date), who builds boats in Thailand and
he tells me that it would be impossible to predict costs without some
very explicit plans. For example, a difference in the thickness of the
core material will make several thousand dollars difference in the
price. The difference between plain woven roving or bi-axial cloth
with a chopped mat backing makes a big difference in cost and
strength. Will you lay the boat up with polyester or epoxy resin that
changes the cost by a factor of ten.
I suppose the materials will come all from Thailand, then?

A couple of years ago I went through exactly this same exercise for a
steel hull trawler in Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia and Thailand. To
even get a guessed at price I needed to supply (1) explicit enough
drawings that the yard could calculate the total amount of steel; (2)
provide specifications on what, if any, code the boat was to be built
to; (2) provide detailed paint specifications, i.e., sand blasted with
clean, new slag, to a specified surface specification, primed within X
minutes of blasting, filler, if any used, final finish, even whether a
paint engineer would be in attendance, and a host of other details
just to be considered a serious client.
To be honest, I had a look at quite a few plans, but none of them
convince me.
It has to be custom designed and custom made.

I would suggest that you first design the boat and prepare detailed
construction drawings then I can either put you in touch with several
yards in SEA or you can google your own, but to be taken as a serious
customer, one that the yards will take the time to respond to, you
will have to be prepared to provide basically final, detailed, plans
and specifications.
I know that, thank you.
You obviously know your trade and I will ask you for advice as soon I
have clarify a few key issues.

Finally, being your own project engineer. I assume that you do have
detailed knowledge of the various classification codes (N.V. Lloyd,
ABS, etc.) and will be able to answer the inevitable questions that
always come up when building something. A knowledge of the local
language would also be extremely useful in either Indonesia or
Thailand where English is less commonly spoken then in Singapore or
Malaysia.

Money talks, specially at those places.
I do speak some Bahasa Indonesia, though, enough to get me by ...

Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeatgmaildotcom)
Selamat jalan .

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 00:15:15 -0000, nautiK
wrote:

On Jun 19, 12:15 pm, Bruce wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 21:02:59 -0000, nautiK
wrote:



Much snipped...

I hate to critique your design parameters but:

(1) Catamarans do not need a water filled keel for stability. A cat
depends on form stability, in other words the width of the boat, to
make the boat stable. Few, if any, cats have sufficient sail area to
capsize them.
You are right, but as you said, a few do capsize, and once they are
upside down it is almost impossible to turn them over again.
So I'm taking no risks.
I've also thought of putting some kind of floating devices on deck
that prevents it from being upside down.

What makes cats capsize is very large breaking waves which literally
throw the boat over. The same wave will roll a ballasted mono
hull.Since a cat is in either the normal or inverted position the
ballast does no good.
I disagree,
If you find a way of sinking a water-filled ballast deep enough that
will act as a powerful dragging force downwards.
I've seen a custom-made one for a small sailing boat, and it worked
great.

The problem with cats is that they are about as stable inverted as
they are right side up as apposed to a mono hull that is not stable
inverted. Thus a cat that gets flipped stays that way while a mono
hull will roll, more or less, right side up.

A mono hull is ballasted to counter the force of the wind on the sails
while the cat counters the force on the sails by being a big wide
boat. For example, if a mono hull is hit by a burst of wind it may be
knocked down but most of the bigger cats have enough width that the
mast may break. There is a Japanese guy sailing a Prout 38 (39?) that
has broken two masts by carrying too much sail -- he himself says so
but adds that he is generally in a hurry.

What I am trying to say is that a heavy ballast keel is not going to
have much effect on a cat (other then to slow it down) but be that as
it may, it is your boat so why not?

(2) When you talk about polyuretane I assume that you are talking
about a cored hull, i.e., a fiberglass skin on each side of a sheet of
polyuretane. Not big blocks of foam taking space inside the boat.
I'm talking about this:
In the ETAP ship-in-ship construction, the deck and hull are double-
skinned. The hollow space between the two decks and two hulls is
filled with closed-cell polyurethane foam. The closed cell structure
is almost entirely non-absorbent and gives the boat sufficient
buoyancy. Even if your ETAP yacht does spring a leak, it will remain
stable and afloat, with enough freeboard for you and your crew.
ETAP 21i hull in double-skin construction
Thanks to many years of experience, Etap can now inject most of the
foam into zones that remain unused even in single-mould boats,
minimising any loss of space. Some years ago the ETAP 30i beat
competitors to be named the boat with the largest amount of storage
space in its class!
http://www.etapmarine.com/unsinkability.php

I had a look at that web site and ETAP is making a big deal out of
building foam cored boats. All cored boats are built with an inner and
outer skin with foam between the skins. This is not new, or
particularly innovative technology. The Italian builder I mentioned
built a 28 ft. mono hull exactly this way and spent three years
sailing it out here from Italy.

An ETAP boat may, or may not, have a thicker inner skin then another
boat, or a thicker layer of foam, but foam cored boats have been built
for years.


And this:
http://www.macgregorowners.com/
http://album.sailboatowners.com/albu...rand=MacGregor

(3) In the case of a large ship running over you, you are dead. It is
that simple. In the event of going on a reef in a storm it would
depend to a great extent on how big and how long the waves hammered
you against the reef. Steel ships break up in severe enough
conditions.
That's why I want some kind of aluminum-alleation structure inside.
Or any other metal capable of withstanding the shock.

I have talked to an Italian fellow, with extensive experience in
composite boats (about 30 to date), who builds boats in Thailand and
he tells me that it would be impossible to predict costs without some
very explicit plans. For example, a difference in the thickness of the
core material will make several thousand dollars difference in the
price. The difference between plain woven roving or bi-axial cloth
with a chopped mat backing makes a big difference in cost and
strength. Will you lay the boat up with polyester or epoxy resin that
changes the cost by a factor of ten.
I suppose the materials will come all from Thailand, then?

Well, if it is built in Thailand the materials will have to be either
made here or imported. For what you are talking about regardless of
where you build the boat in this part of the world nearly all the
materials will have to be imported.

A couple of years ago I went through exactly this same exercise for a
steel hull trawler in Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia and Thailand. To
even get a guessed at price I needed to supply (1) explicit enough
drawings that the yard could calculate the total amount of steel; (2)
provide specifications on what, if any, code the boat was to be built
to; (2) provide detailed paint specifications, i.e., sand blasted with
clean, new slag, to a specified surface specification, primed within X
minutes of blasting, filler, if any used, final finish, even whether a
paint engineer would be in attendance, and a host of other details
just to be considered a serious client.
To be honest, I had a look at quite a few plans, but none of them
convince me.
It has to be custom designed and custom made.

Well, custom building a foam cored boat is not particularly rocket
science so get the boat designed and some construction drawings made
and start contacting yards.


I would suggest that you first design the boat and prepare detailed
construction drawings then I can either put you in touch with several
yards in SEA or you can google your own, but to be taken as a serious
customer, one that the yards will take the time to respond to, you
will have to be prepared to provide basically final, detailed, plans
and specifications.
I know that, thank you.
You obviously know your trade and I will ask you for advice as soon I
have clarify a few key issues.

Finally, being your own project engineer. I assume that you do have
detailed knowledge of the various classification codes (N.V. Lloyd,
ABS, etc.) and will be able to answer the inevitable questions that
always come up when building something. A knowledge of the local
language would also be extremely useful in either Indonesia or
Thailand where English is less commonly spoken then in Singapore or
Malaysia.

Money talks, specially at those places.
I do speak some Bahasa Indonesia, though, enough to get me by ...

Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeatgmaildotcom)
Selamat jalan .

Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeatgmaildotcom)

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com