Nope, just no economical feedstock supply in sufficient quantity.
Everybody goes crazy over using french fry oil for diesel, but how
much used FF oil is there, anyway? Not enough to make even the
slightest dent in the diesel usage in the USA. Other sources simply
aren't economical now. Economics may play out in the long run, but for
now, it just ain't gonna work, unless of course the gummit mandates it
and (as usual) screws with the laws of economics. It's still a fad for
now.

Keith wrote:

Nope, just no economical feedstock supply in sufficient quantity.
Everybody goes crazy over using french fry oil for diesel, but how
much used FF oil is there, anyway? Not enough to make even the
slightest dent in the diesel usage in the USA. Other sources simply
aren't economical now. Economics may play out in the long run, but for
now, it just ain't gonna work, unless of course the gummit mandates it
and (as usual) screws with the laws of economics. It's still a fad for
now.


While used FF oil is handy (and free), it is limited

However, there is oil available in all that corn meal that is left over
after the yeast has done it's magic in the ethanol plants.

You are right, it's not a complete solution, but it's as viable (or
more) than ethanol.




--
“TAANSTAFL”

__________________________________________________ __________________________
Something to think about, from a wise man now long dead….:

“In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes
here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he
shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an
outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or
birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person’s becoming
in every facet an American, and nothing but an American.
“There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an
American, but something else also, isn’t an American at all.
“We have room for but one flag, the American flag. We have room for but
one language here, and that is the English language and we have room for
but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.”
--Theodore Roosevelt...1907

__________________________________________________ __________________________

"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3
__________________________________________________ __________________________

Nope, just no economical feedstock supply in sufficient quantity.
Everybody goes crazy over using french fry oil for diesel, but how
much used FF oil is there, anyway? Not enough to make even the
slightest dent in the diesel usage in the USA. Other sources simply
aren't economical now. Economics may play out in the long run, but for
now, it just ain't gonna work, unless of course the gummit mandates it
and (as usual) screws with the laws of economics. It's still a fad for
now.

Well there is another option. All of those farmers that get paid by the
government to not farm could grow appropriate plants and use them to create
biodeisel. That would be the Gov't interferring less with economics and a
source of a lot of fuel. I really don't know all of the in and outs of this
but it might be a viable means of producing fuel and resucing federal
spending/medling.

Bill

--
Message posted via BoatKB.com
http://www.boatkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/build/200702/1

On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 00:22:15 GMT scbafreak via BoatKB.com
(u25927@uwe) wrote:
Nope, just no economical feedstock supply in sufficient quantity.
Everybody goes crazy over using french fry oil for diesel, but how
much used FF oil is there, anyway? Not enough to make even the
slightest dent in the diesel usage in the USA. Other sources simply
aren't economical now. Economics may play out in the long run, but for
now, it just ain't gonna work, unless of course the gummit mandates it
and (as usual) screws with the laws of economics. It's still a fad for
now.

Well there is another option. All of those farmers that get paid by the
government to not farm could grow appropriate plants and use them to create
biodeisel. That would be the Gov't interferring less with economics and a
source of a lot of fuel. I really don't know all of the in and outs of this
but it might be a viable means of producing fuel and resucing federal
spending/medling.

In Germany there has been a study if a farmer can be self supportive and
the answer is yes. Complete with a study on the effects that biodiesel
has on the machinery.
The conclusion the way I read it was that it is all economical possible
but not a Walhalla.

But hey we boaters are much better of with fuel cells that run on
hydrogen. Were floating on H2O.

--
Richard
e-mail: vervang/replace invalid door/with NL.net

But hey we boaters are much better of with fuel cells that run on
hydrogen. Were floating on H2O.



Hey I'm a big fan of Hydrogen power but it needs some industry standards
before it can really start to take off. BMW has made a hydrogen car but only
sells it to employees of thier factory because the only place to fill it is
at thier gas station that is totally state of the art. It is a really nice
car based off their 750 series and is refueled by robotic gas pumps. Once
that technology really gets going then it will hopefully become available to
boaters. Sadly it will be expensive at first.

Bill

--
Message posted via BoatKB.com
http://www.boatkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/build/200702/1

Richard van den Berg wrote:

On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 00:22:15 GMT scbafreak via BoatKB.com
(u25927@uwe) wrote:

Nope, just no economical feedstock supply in sufficient quantity.
Everybody goes crazy over using french fry oil for diesel, but how
much used FF oil is there, anyway? Not enough to make even the
slightest dent in the diesel usage in the USA. Other sources simply
aren't economical now. Economics may play out in the long run, but for
now, it just ain't gonna work, unless of course the gummit mandates it
and (as usual) screws with the laws of economics. It's still a fad for
now.


Well there is another option. All of those farmers that get paid by the
government to not farm could grow appropriate plants and use them to create
biodeisel. That would be the Gov't interferring less with economics and a
source of a lot of fuel. I really don't know all of the in and outs of this
but it might be a viable means of producing fuel and resucing federal
spending/medling.


In Germany there has been a study if a farmer can be self supportive and
the answer is yes. Complete with a study on the effects that biodiesel
has on the machinery.
The conclusion the way I read it was that it is all economical possible
but not a Walhalla.

But hey we boaters are much better of with fuel cells that run on
hydrogen. Were floating on H2O.


Floating on H2O is not an issue. The issue s breaking the water into
hydrogen and oxygen, and dealing with the handling and the efficiency
issues.

There will likely (unless there is a great change in the way that we
currently deal with hydrogen) never be a "hydrogen economy" as the
energy and efficiency issues are not realistic at this time.

It's a nice dream, but reality eventually raises it's ugly head.

--
“TAANSTAFL”

__________________________________________________ __________________________
Something to think about, from a wise man now long dead….:

“In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes
here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he
shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an
outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or
birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person’s becoming
in every facet an American, and nothing but an American.
“There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an
American, but something else also, isn’t an American at all.
“We have room for but one flag, the American flag. We have room for but
one language here, and that is the English language and we have room for
but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.”
--Theodore Roosevelt...1907

__________________________________________________ __________________________

"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3
__________________________________________________ __________________________

Floating on H2O is not an issue. The issue s breaking the water into
hydrogen and oxygen, and dealing with the handling and the efficiency
issues.

There will likely (unless there is a great change in the way that we
currently deal with hydrogen) never be a "hydrogen economy" as the
energy and efficiency issues are not realistic at this time.

It's a nice dream, but reality eventually raises it's ugly head.


Water can be turned into hydrogen and oxygen with a little electricity which
can be produced by solar panels. Its pretty easy, most high school chemistry
classes do it with pretty basic tools. They have been able to store it and
effectively utilize it but the problem is that H2 is a gas so it has to be
compressed to get enough of it stored to actually do anything. The problems
with using it in cars has largely been the connection from the pump to the
vehicle. There are a potential infinite number of ways to do this andalmost
as many ways to store it but it would have to be a standard among the entire
industry to make it work not to mention ever refueling station would have to
have the proper connections. There are several companies that have made
hydrogen powered vehicles and appliances. They reportedly work great but
getting everyone to agree takes a lot of time. In the early 1900's there
weren't gas stations at every street corner but people made due until
eventually they were everywhere. The same thing could be true for hydrogen
it just takes time. Greenland is already using a lot of hydrogen power in
it's homes and electrical generation. Their biggest problem is coming up
with new ways to use it and move it around. Since they are the only ones
doing it then they have to pay a higher price.

Bill

--
Message posted via http://www.boatkb.com

I'm in San Antonio right now... turns out they're having a biodiesel
conference. He's an equipment supplier that sells stuff to make it on
a commercial level. Told me that they know it's only a fad, but hey...
they're going to make as much as they can while it is. He figures
it'll all be over in about 5 years.

Biodeisel has been around since the deisel engine was invented. In fact
deisel engines were originally run on vegeable oil in WWII by the Nazis who
invented it. It wasn't until later that is was run on the deisel fuel we use
now. I would say that doesn't really qualify as a fad. People have been
making it themselves ever since. Maybe the current surge of people buying
their stuff will be over in 5 years but people will always want a new way to
get fuel.

Bill

--
Message posted via http://www.boatkb.com

scbafreak via BoatKB.com wrote:

Floating on H2O is not an issue. The issue s breaking the water into
hydrogen and oxygen, and dealing with the handling and the efficiency
issues.

There will likely (unless there is a great change in the way that we
currently deal with hydrogen) never be a "hydrogen economy" as the
energy and efficiency issues are not realistic at this time.

It's a nice dream, but reality eventually raises it's ugly head.



Water can be turned into hydrogen and oxygen with a little electricity which
can be produced by solar panels.

You'd be better off storing the solar produced electricity in a battery.

Look at the cycle. H20+electricity to H2 to fuel cell to electricity and
H2O.

Its pretty easy, most high school chemistry
classes do it with pretty basic tools.

But they don't use it to power something.

They have been able to store it and
effectively utilize it but the problem is that H2 is a gas so it has to be
compressed to get enough of it stored to actually do anything.

Part of the inefficiency.

The problems
with using it in cars has largely been the connection from the pump to the
vehicle.

And the lack of much heat energy in hydrogen. The energy density is
fairly low.

There are a potential infinite number of ways to do this and almost
as many ways to store it but it would have to be a standard among the entire
industry to make it work not to mention ever refueling station would have to
have the proper connections. There are several companies that have made
hydrogen powered vehicles and appliances. They reportedly work great but
getting everyone to agree takes a lot of time. In the early 1900's there
weren't gas stations at every street corner but people made due until
eventually they were everywhere. The same thing could be true for hydrogen
it just takes time. Greenland is already using a lot of hydrogen power in
it's homes and electrical generation. Their biggest problem is coming up
with new ways to use it and move it around. Since they are the only ones
doing it then they have to pay a higher price.

Bill



--
“TAANSTAFL�

__________________________________________________ __________________________
Something to think about, from a wise man now long dead….:

“In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes
here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he
shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an
outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or
birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person’s becoming
in every facet an American, and nothing but an American.
“There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an
American, but something else also, isn’t an American at all.
“We have room for but one flag, the American flag. We have room for but
one language here, and that is the English language and we have room for
but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.�
--Theodore Roosevelt...1907

__________________________________________________ __________________________

"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3
__________________________________________________ __________________________

Now this is a lot of nonsense in one post:

Is is spelled DIESEL, like Rudolf Diesel,
who invented the diesel engine in 1892.
No Nazis, no vegetable oil, but coal.

Biodeisel has been around since the deisel engine was invented. In fact
deisel engines were originally run on vegeable oil in WWII by the Nazis who
invented it. It wasn't until later that is was run on the deisel fuel we use
now. I would say that doesn't really qualify as a fad. People have been
making it themselves ever since. Maybe the current surge of people buying
their stuff will be over in 5 years but people will always want a new way to
get fuel.

Bill

--
Message posted viahttp://www.boatkb.com