"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
ups.com...
So, I'm at the point of doing my fuel system, as the mechanic is coming
Saturday to do the servicing of the engine and align the tranny with
me.

At the St. Pete Strictly Sail last week, I saw a presentation on "fuel
polishing" which was really a pitch for Algae-X. The rep claimed that
Cummins diesels now puts them on all their engines after convincing
proof following too many clogged-filter episodes, and that the CG uses
them on all their ships (which the website doesn't validate, though
there is a testimonial from a Coastie and a Cummins guy).

Visiting the website provides some interesting testimonials, including
a nice pictorial by a dual tank, dual engine, tester. Testimonials
include several large users. Sunsail was among them, and I have a
question in to my Sunsail contact in Tortola - if it's real, despite
there being no reference to it on their website, I think I'd buy it.
However...

Of concern, nearly all the successful users also cited adding some fuel
treatment to the system - thus, I don't know if that's at root of the
success, or, if the assertions of the magnetic system breaking up the
clumped stuff (claimed to be asphalts, paraffins, and other long-chain
un-distillates), which then burns (vs collecting on the filters, being
discarded, losing energy from those otherwise broken-up and now
combustible stuff in the process). Many of them also cited several
tankfuls before reaching equilibrium, which might merely be new fuel.
However, one of the typical citations is reduced injector
loss/increased time between change/service, and in some cases, zero
filter change (one of the points made in the presentation's ostensibly
technical presentation was that what clogs filters is asphalts, etc.
and that microorganisms, if not precipitated from dead critters, passes
through filters and is burned) following initial "polishing").

Googling Algae-X and other key words led to a government site which had
done much magnetic (and other mileage-enhancing) gadget testing
(albeit, since it was auto oriented, prolly for gas engines), and found
no benefit to them. That it was relevant to mileage claims (vs
contaminant elimination) further leads me to at least partly discount
that.

There's also a Navy site which addresses additives, but not
"conditioners" such as Algae-X.

Of course, much hyperbole exists, with the emphasis on "hype," in the
anecdotal repertoire of the internet. Lots of heat and little light.
Not the first user report (that I found, at any rate) other than on the
company website. Plenty of non-users slamming it.

So, to the point. Who here has installed Algae-X and with what result?
If positive, neutral or negative, how was that view reached?
Empirical? Gut feel? Some data? Rigorous documentation?

So, again, if you've (or, your best buddy, on whose boat you're a
regular and intimately familiar with the outcome) installed this, I'd
like to hear about it.

At the risk of sounding pedantic (well, I _do_, so, "at the risk of
offending those who object"), please, no hype, or slams unless you've
used it to failure. Also, please don't reply unless you're one of the
folks in the preceding paragraph or asking clarifying questions.
Nobody will learn anything from that and it will be one of those 90+
message threads which has only 5 on point. I'm currently very short on
time and can't afford to wade through the mudslinging...

Thanks.

Other interested parties may wish to examine
http://www.algae-x.net/test_reports.htm, their test reports, and
http://www.algae-x.net/customers_marine_endorsement.htm, including the
pictorial mentioned above, titled "snake oil chronicles." I'm not sure
I like his testing modus, but it's pretty good for non-lab work. A
discussion of why this is supposed to work can be found at
http://www.algae-x.net/pdf/Tech_P_Effects_Mag_Field.pdf There's also
a report by a lab, taking a known contaminated fuel batch, showing the
kind of results claimed by the company, but at this writing I'm not
easily able to put my hands on it...

L8R

Skip, also fighting a fuel leak which will most likely involve cutting
the sole - and then, some horrible-to-contemplate resolution in the FRP
tank

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain


I purchased new in 1996 a twin diesel cruiser (Cummins 420 Diamond Edition)
and put approximately 60 hours a year on it over the next 10 years (doesn't
sound like much but at 20 knots that is give or take 1000+ miles each year).
From my initial fill up I added the proper amounts of preservative/biocide
(Biobor and others). After three years I experienced severely clogged fuel
filters (black gunky stuff). Subsequently had the fuel polished and (at the
recommendation of the local Cummins distributor) installed Algae-X filters
on both main engine fuel lines while continuing the biocide/preservative
addition at EVERY fuel fill up. No subsequent problems were experienced.
Boat is on the Great Lakes and sits in indoor heated storage @ 50 degrees F
for 6 months a year; probably ideal conditions for biological growth and
"molecular agglomeration".

I've got a 17 year old Catalina 36. Earlier this year, I had to
replace the fuel tank due to a pinhole leak in the bottom. I pumped
all the fuel into 6-gallon fuel cans and noticed no "crud" in the fuel,
nor on the bottom of the tank (now replaced).

The boat has never had biocide in the tank and has never had the fuel
polished. I do keep the tank as full as possible during the winter
months to minimize condensation in the tank and replace both fuel
filters once a year. Never had a problem.

But I have talked with people on the dock that swear by biocide because
they have never had a problem with their fuel. I guess it's the
placebo effect.

dudley
..
Fred Miller wrote:
"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
ups.com...
So, I'm at the point of doing my fuel system, as the mechanic is coming
Saturday to do the servicing of the engine and align the tranny with
me.

At the St. Pete Strictly Sail last week, I saw a presentation on "fuel
polishing" which was really a pitch for Algae-X. The rep claimed that
Cummins diesels now puts them on all their engines after convincing
proof following too many clogged-filter episodes, and that the CG uses
them on all their ships (which the website doesn't validate, though
there is a testimonial from a Coastie and a Cummins guy).

Visiting the website provides some interesting testimonials, including
a nice pictorial by a dual tank, dual engine, tester. Testimonials
include several large users. Sunsail was among them, and I have a
question in to my Sunsail contact in Tortola - if it's real, despite
there being no reference to it on their website, I think I'd buy it.
However...

Of concern, nearly all the successful users also cited adding some fuel
treatment to the system - thus, I don't know if that's at root of the
success, or, if the assertions of the magnetic system breaking up the
clumped stuff (claimed to be asphalts, paraffins, and other long-chain
un-distillates), which then burns (vs collecting on the filters, being
discarded, losing energy from those otherwise broken-up and now
combustible stuff in the process). Many of them also cited several
tankfuls before reaching equilibrium, which might merely be new fuel.
However, one of the typical citations is reduced injector
loss/increased time between change/service, and in some cases, zero
filter change (one of the points made in the presentation's ostensibly
technical presentation was that what clogs filters is asphalts, etc.
and that microorganisms, if not precipitated from dead critters, passes
through filters and is burned) following initial "polishing").

Googling Algae-X and other key words led to a government site which had
done much magnetic (and other mileage-enhancing) gadget testing
(albeit, since it was auto oriented, prolly for gas engines), and found
no benefit to them. That it was relevant to mileage claims (vs
contaminant elimination) further leads me to at least partly discount
that.

There's also a Navy site which addresses additives, but not
"conditioners" such as Algae-X.

Of course, much hyperbole exists, with the emphasis on "hype," in the
anecdotal repertoire of the internet. Lots of heat and little light.
Not the first user report (that I found, at any rate) other than on the
company website. Plenty of non-users slamming it.

So, to the point. Who here has installed Algae-X and with what result?
If positive, neutral or negative, how was that view reached?
Empirical? Gut feel? Some data? Rigorous documentation?

So, again, if you've (or, your best buddy, on whose boat you're a
regular and intimately familiar with the outcome) installed this, I'd
like to hear about it.

At the risk of sounding pedantic (well, I _do_, so, "at the risk of
offending those who object"), please, no hype, or slams unless you've
used it to failure. Also, please don't reply unless you're one of the
folks in the preceding paragraph or asking clarifying questions.
Nobody will learn anything from that and it will be one of those 90+
message threads which has only 5 on point. I'm currently very short on
time and can't afford to wade through the mudslinging...

Thanks.

Other interested parties may wish to examine
http://www.algae-x.net/test_reports.htm, their test reports, and
http://www.algae-x.net/customers_marine_endorsement.htm, including the
pictorial mentioned above, titled "snake oil chronicles." I'm not sure
I like his testing modus, but it's pretty good for non-lab work. A
discussion of why this is supposed to work can be found at
http://www.algae-x.net/pdf/Tech_P_Effects_Mag_Field.pdf There's also
a report by a lab, taking a known contaminated fuel batch, showing the
kind of results claimed by the company, but at this writing I'm not
easily able to put my hands on it...

L8R

Skip, also fighting a fuel leak which will most likely involve cutting
the sole - and then, some horrible-to-contemplate resolution in the FRP
tank

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain


I purchased new in 1996 a twin diesel cruiser (Cummins 420 Diamond Edition)
and put approximately 60 hours a year on it over the next 10 years (doesn't
sound like much but at 20 knots that is give or take 1000+ miles each year).
From my initial fill up I added the proper amounts of preservative/biocide
(Biobor and others). After three years I experienced severely clogged fuel
filters (black gunky stuff). Subsequently had the fuel polished and (at the
recommendation of the local Cummins distributor) installed Algae-X filters
on both main engine fuel lines while continuing the biocide/preservative
addition at EVERY fuel fill up. No subsequent problems were experienced.
Boat is on the Great Lakes and sits in indoor heated storage @ 50 degrees F
for 6 months a year; probably ideal conditions for biological growth and
"molecular agglomeration".

On 13 Nov 2006 13:17:36 -0800, "dudley"
wrote:

But I have talked with people on the dock that swear by biocide because
they have never had a problem with their fuel. I guess it's the
placebo effect.

What ever works for you.

There seems to be a consensus among the "experts" that if you use the
engine regulary the fuel is more likely to stay clean, probably
because your engine is recirculating it through the filters on a
regular basis. The folks who seem to have the most problems are those
with large tanks and irregular usage.

Because you have had no problems after cleaning the fuel installing new
filters and an Alge-X does not in any way mean that it works. It just
means cleaning the fuel and replacing the filters worked. Its like the
diet pills that say "Taken with a sensible diet and regular exersise
you will loose weight." OK, now try it with out taking the pill and
see what happens.

As a physicist, I say "Balder Dash"

Lets hear from all those people out there that have NO ALGE-X
installation that also have NO problems.

The original post wanted to hear only from those that had installed the
thing. This is how you skew a study if that is what you want. But if
you want truth you need to hear from the 95% who dont use it and dont
have problems as well as the 5% that do use it and dont have problems.

It is all an outgrowth of the myth in the 1930s that your car would get
better fuel mileage with a "cow magnet" strapped to the gas line.

I would say "real world, first person", includes me who have been
boating for 40 years with no fuel problems and NO ALGE-X Thats "real
world" as well as the people who use it.

"jim.isbell" wrote in message
oups.com...

Because you have had no problems after cleaning the fuel installing new
filters and an Alge-X does not in any way mean that it works. It just
means cleaning the fuel and replacing the filters worked. Its like the
diet pills that say "Taken with a sensible diet and regular exersise
you will loose weight." OK, now try it with out taking the pill and
see what happens.

As a physicist, I say "Balder Dash"

Lets hear from all those people out there that have NO ALGE-X
installation that also have NO problems.

The original post wanted to hear only from those that had installed the
thing. This is how you skew a study if that is what you want. But if
you want truth you need to hear from the 95% who dont use it and dont
have problems as well as the 5% that do use it and dont have problems.

It is all an outgrowth of the myth in the 1930s that your car would get
better fuel mileage with a "cow magnet" strapped to the gas line.

I would say "real world, first person", includes me who have been
boating for 40 years with no fuel problems and NO ALGE-X Thats "real
world" as well as the people who use it.


I wear a pendant watch as a protection against attack from Bengal Tigers. It
must work, as I have never even SEEN a Bengal Tiger while wearing my watch.
:-^

Replying to my own post so as to keep it in the right chain order for
those with threaded readers...

While it's not yet to the 90 cited in the original, the expected has
happened - a few users have contributed, and the rest tell us why they
think it won't work, or why someone who's had success can't properly
attribute it to Algae-X.

Mostly heat and not much light, of course. Somewhere, someone
mentioned a PS test of the product, but I have no access to it - does
anyone here, and want to post it?

Meanwhile, I've also put the same question to several sailnet mailing
lists and have gotten a much smaller sample, mostly of users. One who
isn't, yet, but will be, and my response, and additional commentary,
are below:

From: "Danny Crump"
To: columbia
Subject: [columbia] Algae-X
Date: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 7:45 AM

Here's my understanding of the diesel fuel productology (not to be
confused with proctology):

1) Algae-X has no effect on critters in the tank. (It does not
explode algae as it passes by the magnet)

2) Algae-X has no effect on gasoline.

3) Algae-X is not needed in any system the uses fuel in a rapid
manner. (ie fuel is refined on Monday, shipped to the supplier on
Tuesday, sold on Wednesday, and consumed on Thursday.)

4) Algae-X is effective at converting asphalt and tar (long chain
carbon sludge) that forms in diesel fuel which sits for extended
periods of time.

5) Algae-X should be placed between the tank and the primary filter.

6) I will install Algae-X on my new-to-me Endeavour 37 based on the
WHAT-THE-HELL-IT-CAN'T-HURT PRINCIPLE.

7) The most effective diesel cleaning/polishing system is opening
the tank through an inspection port, pumping out and disposing of the
old fuel, cleaning the bottom of the tank to remove all the settlins'
and refilling with fresh fuel. This system is scientifically proven
to work every time.

8) Preventative measure #1. I am removing the fuel fill line from
the deck fitting and rerouting it to inside a locker. My rationale
is that the fuel fitting is protected from rain water intrusion
should the boat develop a poorly sealed cap. NOTE: SURVEYORS DON'T
LIKE THIS!!! YOU WILL BE REQUIRED TO REROUTE THE FILL HOSE AT SALE
TIME!!!

9) Preventative measure #2. Fabricate a "H" shaped moisture filter
from 1" PVC and place it in-line with the tank vent. Fill the filter
with descant to prevent moisture intrusion from the vent
line. Change the descant on a regular PM schedule. If you need
instructions I think I have a photo somewhere and will E-mail it.

10) Use Kolor Kit water detecting paste regularly to check for water
intrusion into your fuel tank. Industrial hardware suppliers in
petro-chemical areas usually stock this paste. Also, most gasoline
tanker trucks carry the paste. If nothing else find a driver
dropping fuel at a service station and ask him for a small bit of the
paste (bring your own container).

-Danny Crump-

and my response:

#4 is the only reason I'd install it, as I will have a fuel polishing
system and dual racors (to change on the fly) when I finish, and I
expect
that my tank will take a very long time to empty, if we're able to
stick to
our guns in our anticipated use. I like the thought of recovering the
otherwise lost energy. Unfortunately, it seems that the only way this
works
is to have multiple passes, all of which should be going through
filters if
you do it like they suggest in their presentation. If the filter takes
out
the sludge, there's no proof that Algae-X did anything to enhance the
quality of the fuel. If it doesn't, the engine stops...

However, there's very little empirical proof of #4 - and none that I
have
seen which would pass the smell test for any documentation vs small
sample
or conjecture by users vs labs - so I'm still considering, vs buying.

However, I would like to see the desiccant chamber you describe -
thanks.

(end of my reply to Columbia)

Going further, I don't disagree with any of the non-user postulations
here (RBC/B) - but it doesn't address the question of actual use and
either failure or success, and on what basis that analysis is reached.
I'm not the engineer that Roger is, but I tend toward requiring the
level of proof that one would if buying something not widely proven or
understood. Those who followed (as one example) my expected use of a
drive saver, and the discussion and interchange following that post
(asking exactly the same question - who's used these, particularly
while having their drive saved, and with what result?), and my
subsequent migration to *not* using that, even though I had one offered
to me for free, would know my empirical nature.

And, I think part of the problem WRT getting to the bottom of it is
that the product doesn't carry a name which fits with their
presentation - something which breaks up carbon fuel solids, not that
kills algae or separates clumps of dead ones. In fact, their
presentation strongly recommended against biocides, claiming that if
they aren't clumped, but alive and swimming, they'd pass through the
filters' smallest iteration, and burn, harmlessly.

Yet, one of the endorsements I cited (which I can't put my hands on,
but it's in the company stuff, I'm pretty sure, as opposed to being in
the Google I did before my post) had a known contaminated sample of
fuel, confirmed biogrowth at the beginning, runs through the unit only
(no filter) for several passes, and no sludge or biogrowth following
the (very small sample) test. It's this sort of thing, but on a much
larger scale, and with some nationally or industry-related test unit,
which would be useful to me.

In the presentation given by the vendor, they noted that the usual
diesel engine returns 75-80% of the fuel pumped to it, unused, to the
tank. They say that to work the unit needs a minimum of 3-4 passes -
that is, the tank should be cycled 3-4 times before it's "treated" -
but if there are filters in the line (as there should be), that
wouldn't be far off polishing in the usual sense of the word. That is,
if you have a 100 gallon tank, by the time you've used 25 gallons,
generally, your tank will be polished, in their terms. Of course, if
you started with garbage in the tank, likely you'll have removed it
with the filters (or the unit, but who could tell?) by that time, as
well. Yet, their files, and some of my responses, are full of very
reduced filter changes, and in the case of large users with what I
presume to be very high volume use, notably lengthened injector service
intervals.

As stated earlier, I wasn't here (this thread) with my mind made up to
buy, but instead with a healthy skepticism looking for real-life
experiences (from someone not on the company website - there's lots of
it there), particularly WRT documentation that it *doesn't* work.
Anyone can loudly say that a fisherman anchor won't work in general
use, but unless they can point to PS tests (even then not all that
scientific), or their own use where it failed, all one gets from the
exercise is someone else ranting. OTOH, one may say that a Spade or
Bulwagga is pure bull hockey, but have not only many users compare
their use to their prior installation, but point to PS tests (flawed as
they may be), or Glenn's real-world BVI tests with boats instead of
winches, with real ocean vs beaches.

Absent such interest on the part of the usual cruiser/boater testing
units, I rely on the kindness of strangers, so to speak (channeling
Blanche, here), being very sure to extend my own kindnesses where I
may, and, in particular, not providing opinion, but instead experience
and/or citations where available.

So, who's used these, and what were the results?? And, of course,
thanks to those users who have contributed so far.


L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely
nothing-half so
much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing
about in
boats-or *with* boats.

In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter,
that's
the charm of it.

Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never
get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to
do, and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better

I will install Algae-X on my new-to-me Endeavour 37 based on the
WHAT-THE-HELL-IT-CAN'T-HURT PRINCIPLE.

7) The most effective diesel cleaning/polishing system is opening
the tank through an inspection port, pumping out and disposing of the
old fuel, cleaning the bottom of the tank to remove all the settlins'
and refilling with fresh fuel. This system is scientifically proven
to work every time.



Wanna see what the bottom of your tank might look like?


http://s90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...t=P1010166.jpg


I was following Skips advice last year, before he gave it.

http://s90.photobucket.com/albums/k274/densnet/

Now a fan of Biobor, and a combo transfer/filtering system.

Bought a sailboat for 1/10th the market because of a clogged filter.
The owner had replaced the engine, and it still didn't run! must have
had an ACE mechanic.

"There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing about in boats." -- Kenneth Grahame
www.densnet.com