Tricolour masthead lights
 

Hi guys, I'm just about to buy the nav lights for my 34 sailboat and
need a bit of advice on tricolour lights.
I reckon that the higher the nav lights the better and although none
of my previous boats had masthead tri colour lights I want to fit
those on my new one.
BUT I'm a bit confused about the use of what is advertised as a
combined tri/mooring light. Under sail there is no problem, but if
under motor, according to the colregs boats of my size may display a
white all round combined masthead and sternlight.
OK staightforward enough, but if using an all round white light
directly under the port and starboard masthead lights, will the white
all round light not make it harder for other boats to see the coloured
lights?

I have looked at a few new boats and they don't have any other
steaming light fitted. Is this just sloppy practice by the
boatbuilders or am I getting my knickers in a twist for nothing?

Tricolour masthead lights
 

pete wrote:
Hi guys, I'm just about to buy the nav lights for my 34 sailboat and
need a bit of advice on tricolour lights.
I reckon that the higher the nav lights the better and although none
of my previous boats had masthead tri colour lights I want to fit
those on my new one.
BUT I'm a bit confused about the use of what is advertised as a
combined tri/mooring light.

Two diffrent circuits. Two diffrent switches to activate.

Under sail there is no problem, but if
under motor, according to the colregs boats of my size may display a
white all round combined masthead and sternlight.

I think you mean "side lights" not sternlight. No?


OK staightforward enough, but if using an all round white light
directly under the port and starboard masthead lights, will the white
all round light not make it harder for other boats to see the coloured
lights?


tricolor light is used on sailboats only.

once you are "propelled by machinery" (motor) you are offically a
motorboat and can not use the tricolor.

Of course ya got the 7m , 12m and 20m thing.

Ya might read the colregs found:

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/navrules.htm


I have looked at a few new boats and they don't have any other
steaming light fitted. Is this just sloppy practice by the
boatbuilders or am I getting my knickers in a twist for nothing?

So do you want to use your anchor light to also serve as an all around
white light when putting about as a motor boat?

And how far does the anchor light in your tricolor shine?

And how far is a ColReg all-round white light suppose to shine when
underway as a motorboat under 12m?
Bulb Head Bob

Tricolour masthead lights
 

Pete,

Your confusion is not unique.

The all around and the navigation lights (red and green set) should
never be on at the same time.

The problem is that the regulators have been pushing the trilight on the
basis of better visiblity when undersail without any consideration of:
a- maintenance, b- equipment complications.

Though it is not clear unless you are very good at reading regulese (my
new word), there is separation required between the navigation lights
and the forward range light (aka steaming light) that is not possible
with a trilight.

Ergo - you must still retain and use the low level navigation lights
when propelled by machinery.

Matt Colie
Lifelong Waterman, Licensed Mariner and Congenital Sailor

pete wrote:
Hi guys, I'm just about to buy the nav lights for my 34 sailboat and
need a bit of advice on tricolour lights.
I reckon that the higher the nav lights the better and although none
of my previous boats had masthead tri colour lights I want to fit
those on my new one.
BUT I'm a bit confused about the use of what is advertised as a
combined tri/mooring light. Under sail there is no problem, but if
under motor, according to the colregs boats of my size may display a
white all round combined masthead


and sternlight.
OK staightforward enough, but if using an all round white light
directly under the port and starboard masthead lights, will the white
all round light not make it harder for other boats to see the coloured
lights?

I have looked at a few new boats and they don't have any other
steaming light fitted. Is this just sloppy practice by the
boatbuilders or am I getting my knickers in a twist for nothing?

Tricolour masthead lights
 

pete wrote:
Hi guys, I'm just about to buy the nav lights for my 34 sailboat and
need a bit of advice on tricolour lights.
I reckon that the higher the nav lights the better and although none
of my previous boats had masthead tri colour lights I want to fit
those on my new one.
BUT I'm a bit confused about the use of what is advertised as a
combined tri/mooring light.
snip

The Tri-Color is a sail only light located at the top of the mast.

The mooring light is also usually located at the top of the mast and
requires a separate circuit.

When you are under engine power, NONE of the above lights are used.

A white "Steaming light", usually located about half way up the mast,
a rear white light as well as red and green lights, usually mounted
near deck level, are required, again on a separate circuit.

I used a couple of 3 pole, double throw panel switches that were wired
to cross interlock them.

You could have either the Tri-Color or the "Steaming" lights, but not
both.

The 3rd pole on the switches was used to control the red back lighting
used at night on the compass and other instruments.

HTH

Lew

Tricolour masthead lights
 

Pete,

Do yourself a big favor and DO NOT opt for the tricolour mastead light
allowed under colregs Rule 25b, especially if you plan to go offshore.
The problem is with visibility to other ships. Sure, they're easier to
see because they're high up, but on a dark night, where a watchkeeper
on a cargo ship may be judging your distance by the light's height on
the horizon, he may think that you're far away while you're almost up
against him.

Radar doesn't help the problem, because your small boat might not
return much of an echo. Normally, if you have a radar reflector, enough
of an echo is returned to show up on the screen, but in the case where
the officer of the watch sees your lights high on the horizon, and
thinks you're further away, he may not notice your echo very close to
the sea clutter at the center of his screen. I was sailing on a Panamax
bulker, last winter, and the captain told me how this had happened to
him. He came very close to a yacht, so close that he could see there
wasn't anyone steering, once he turned on the outside floodlights. As I
described above, he thought the vessel was further away, and made of a
material absorbing his radar waves, like wood or fibreglass. He finally
had a doubt when he noticed the bearing was altering quickly, and so he
turned on the floodlights. The yacht was about a hundred meters away on
the port side. Needless to say, there was panic and "hard-a-starboard".

Anyway, my point is that if you want masthead lights in order for ships
to spot you more easily, you should opt for the combination allowed
under rule 25c, which is all-round red over green at the masthead
combined with sidelights at the deck level, and a sternlight also at
deck level. Thus, you'll present Red-Green-Red, Red-Green-Green or
Red-Green-White to any approaching ship, which is guaranteed to
persuade even the thickest-headed Russian mate to shy from the course
line on his electronic chart.

-maxime camirand


pete wrote:
Hi guys, I'm just about to buy the nav lights for my 34 sailboat and
need a bit of advice on tricolour lights.
I reckon that the higher the nav lights the better and although none
of my previous boats had masthead tri colour lights I want to fit
those on my new one.
BUT I'm a bit confused about the use of what is advertised as a
combined tri/mooring light. Under sail there is no problem, but if
under motor, according to the colregs boats of my size may display a
white all round combined masthead and sternlight.
OK staightforward enough, but if using an all round white light
directly under the port and starboard masthead lights, will the white
all round light not make it harder for other boats to see the coloured
lights?

I have looked at a few new boats and they don't have any other
steaming light fitted. Is this just sloppy practice by the
boatbuilders or am I getting my knickers in a twist for nothing?

Tricolour masthead lights
 

On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 18:06:24 +0200, pete wrote:

Hi guys, I'm just about to buy the nav lights for my 34 sailboat and
need a bit of advice on tricolour lights.
I reckon that the higher the nav lights the better and although none
of my previous boats had masthead tri colour lights I want to fit
those on my new one.
BUT I'm a bit confused about the use of what is advertised as a
combined tri/mooring light. Under sail there is no problem, but if
under motor, according to the colregs boats of my size may display a
white all round combined masthead and sternlight.
OK staightforward enough, but if using an all round white light
directly under the port and starboard masthead lights, will the white
all round light not make it harder for other boats to see the coloured
lights?

I have looked at a few new boats and they don't have any other
steaming light fitted. Is this just sloppy practice by the
boatbuilders or am I getting my knickers in a twist for nothing?

Ah ha, thanks for the input guys, I wasn't ware that the masthead tri
light wasn't allowed under engine, my copy of the regs doesn't read
like that, but I had my fears confirmed about it all.

I am opting for the lower level lighting arrangement, my old boat was
like that with the separate steaming light halfway up the mast.

As it happens, I have been advised that inshore, higher level lights
can get confused with land lights, whereas the lower level lights look
to be on the water and therefore not on land.

I did hire a 9m sailboat a few months ago though, and this was a brand
new Beneteau, with no steaming light, just the all round anchor light
I described before. I wasn't happy about it as I was motor sailing in
poor weather, but I never met any other boats to confuse
so.................

Pete. (Next questions coming soon!!)

Tricolour masthead lights
 

"pete" wrote

I did hire a 9m sailboat a few months ago though, and this was a brand
new Beneteau, with no steaming light, just the all round anchor light
I described before. I wasn't happy about it as I was motor sailing in
poor weather, but I never met any other boats to confuse
so.................

On a boat less than 20m, it is acceptable to have port/stb lights plus an
all round white light when under power. Many power boats use this set-up and
it is acceptable on sailboats too when under power.

The all round light should of course be a nav light not a low intensity
anchor light. Our all round light has a bulb with two filaments - one for
anchor light and one for navigation.

Tricolour masthead lights
 

So the minimum you would need is (?):

Sailing: Tricolor on mast top, nothin else.
Motoring: Tricolor on mast top plus 'steaming light' forward, half up
the mast
OR
All around white light on mast top plus red/green on
bow
Anchoring: All around white light on mast top.

That would mean for motoring you could augment the tricolor with
whichever of the original lights is still working.

Is this correct? (I am currently putting a lightstick up the mast when
anchoring. :)


Matt Colie wrote:
Pete,

Your confusion is not unique.

The all around and the navigation lights (red and green set) should
never be on at the same time.

The problem is that the regulators have been pushing the trilight on the
basis of better visiblity when undersail without any consideration of:
a- maintenance, b- equipment complications.

Though it is not clear unless you are very good at reading regulese (my
new word), there is separation required between the navigation lights
and the forward range light (aka steaming light) that is not possible
with a trilight.

Ergo - you must still retain and use the low level navigation lights
when propelled by machinery.

Matt Colie
Lifelong Waterman, Licensed Mariner and Congenital Sailor

pete wrote:
Hi guys, I'm just about to buy the nav lights for my 34 sailboat and
need a bit of advice on tricolour lights.
I reckon that the higher the nav lights the better and although none
of my previous boats had masthead tri colour lights I want to fit
those on my new one.
BUT I'm a bit confused about the use of what is advertised as a
combined tri/mooring light. Under sail there is no problem, but if
under motor, according to the colregs boats of my size may display a
white all round combined masthead


and sternlight.
OK staightforward enough, but if using an all round white light
directly under the port and starboard masthead lights, will the white
all round light not make it harder for other boats to see the coloured
lights?

I have looked at a few new boats and they don't have any other
steaming light fitted. Is this just sloppy practice by the
boatbuilders or am I getting my knickers in a twist for nothing?

Tricolour masthead lights
 

Tricolour masthead lights
 

Ooops, November 3rd must be smartassday.

I understand that you can't show the all around white light
directly above the red green, but I thought that one can
combine steaming and rear (~12m), so what is wrong
with the combinations above?


Not quite.

Read and understand my previous post.


Lew

Tricolour masthead lights
 

Chris,

I didn't really understand what lights you were describing, so I'm
going to include the relevant rules. When you're sailing, you fall
under rule 25 abc unless you're under 7 meters long (approx 22 feet).
When you're motoring, you're under Rule 23. I can't recall if you told
us how long your boat is. That would help refine the requirements.

Rule 25

Sailing Vessels Underway and Vessels Under Oars

(a) a sailing vessel underway shall exhibit:

(i) sidelights;

(ii) a sternlight.

(b) In a sailing vessel of less than 20 meters in length the lights
prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule may be combined in one lantern
carried at or near the top of the mast where it can best be seen.

(c) A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed
in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit at or near the top of the mast,
where they can best be seen, two all-round lights in a vertical line,
the upper being red and the lower Green, but these lights shall not be
exhibited in conjunction with the combined lantern permitted by
paragraph (b) of this Rule.

[snip]

=====


Rule 23

power driven Vessels Underway

(a) A power driven vessel underway shall exhibit:

(i) a masthead light forward;

(ii) a second masthead light abaft of and higher than the forward one;

except that a vessel of less than 50 meters in length shall not be
obliged to exhibit such a light but may do so;

(iii) sidelights: and

(iv) a sternlight.

(b) An air-cushion vessel when operating in non-displacement mode
shall, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this
Rule, exhibit an all-round flashing yellow light.

(c)

(i) A power driven vessel of less than 12 meters in length may in lieu
of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule exhibit an
all-round white light and sidelights.

(ii) a power driven vessel of less than 7 meters in length whose
maximum speed does not exceed 7 knots may in lieu of the lights
prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule exhibit an all-round white
light and shall, if practicable, also exhibit sidelights.

(iii) the masthead light or all-round white light on a power driven
vessel of less than 12 meters in length may be displaced from the fore
and aft centerline of the vessel if centerline fitting is not
practicable, provided the sidelights are combined in one lantern which
shall be carried on the fore and aft centerline of the vessel or
located as nearly as practicable in the same fore and aft line as the
masthead light or all-round white light.



wrote:
Ooops, November 3rd must be smartassday.

I understand that you can't show the all around white light
directly above the red green, but I thought that one can
combine steaming and rear (~12m), so what is wrong
with the combinations above?


Not quite.

Read and understand my previous post.


Lew

Tricolour masthead lights
 

I like http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/fedreqs/equ_nav.htm

It has pictures and may be more authoritative.

Roger

http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
"max camirand" wrote in message
ups.com...
Chris,

I didn't really understand what lights you were describing, so I'm
going to include the relevant rules. When you're sailing, you fall
under rule 25 abc unless you're under 7 meters long (approx 22 feet).
When you're motoring, you're under Rule 23. I can't recall if you told
us how long your boat is. That would help refine the requirements.

Rule 25

Sailing Vessels Underway and Vessels Under Oars

(a) a sailing vessel underway shall exhibit:

(i) sidelights;

(ii) a sternlight.

(b) In a sailing vessel of less than 20 meters in length the lights
prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule may be combined in one lantern
carried at or near the top of the mast where it can best be seen.

(c) A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed
in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit at or near the top of the mast,
where they can best be seen, two all-round lights in a vertical line,
the upper being red and the lower Green, but these lights shall not be
exhibited in conjunction with the combined lantern permitted by
paragraph (b) of this Rule.

[snip]

=====


Rule 23

power driven Vessels Underway

(a) A power driven vessel underway shall exhibit:

(i) a masthead light forward;

(ii) a second masthead light abaft of and higher than the forward one;

except that a vessel of less than 50 meters in length shall not be
obliged to exhibit such a light but may do so;

(iii) sidelights: and

(iv) a sternlight.

(b) An air-cushion vessel when operating in non-displacement mode
shall, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this
Rule, exhibit an all-round flashing yellow light.

(c)

(i) A power driven vessel of less than 12 meters in length may in lieu
of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule exhibit an
all-round white light and sidelights.

(ii) a power driven vessel of less than 7 meters in length whose
maximum speed does not exceed 7 knots may in lieu of the lights
prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule exhibit an all-round white
light and shall, if practicable, also exhibit sidelights.

(iii) the masthead light or all-round white light on a power driven
vessel of less than 12 meters in length may be displaced from the fore
and aft centerline of the vessel if centerline fitting is not
practicable, provided the sidelights are combined in one lantern which
shall be carried on the fore and aft centerline of the vessel or
located as nearly as practicable in the same fore and aft line as the
masthead light or all-round white light.



wrote:
Ooops, November 3rd must be smartassday.

I understand that you can't show the all around white light
directly above the red green, but I thought that one can
combine steaming and rear (~12m), so what is wrong
with the combinations above?


Not quite.

Read and understand my previous post.


Lew

Tricolour masthead lights
 

On 20 Oct 2006 16:18:09 -0700, "max camirand"
wrote:

Do yourself a big favor and DO NOT opt for the tricolour mastead light
allowed under colregs Rule 25b, especially if you plan to go offshore.
The problem is with visibility to other ships. Sure, they're easier to
see because they're high up, but on a dark night, where a watchkeeper
on a cargo ship may be judging your distance by the light's height on
the horizon, he may think that you're far away while you're almost up
against him.

I disagree based on my own experiences sailing at night in the
proximity of commercial shipping.

Before we got the masthead tricolor commercial ships acted as though
we were totally invisible, and probably we were. After getting the
tricolor it became clear that we were not only being seen, but the big
guys were actually making course changes to avoid us.

By all means get the tricolor. Your first goal is to be seen by
others, then they can figure out the distance.

Tricolour masthead lights
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On 20 Oct 2006 16:18:09 -0700, "max camirand"
wrote:


Do yourself a big favor and DO NOT opt for the tricolour mastead light
allowed under colregs Rule 25b, especially if you plan to go offshore.
The problem is with visibility to other ships. Sure, they're easier to
see because they're high up, but on a dark night, where a watchkeeper
on a cargo ship may be judging your distance by the light's height on
the horizon, he may think that you're far away while you're almost up
against him.


I disagree based on my own experiences sailing at night in the
proximity of commercial shipping.

Before we got the masthead tricolor commercial ships acted as though
we were totally invisible, and probably we were. After getting the
tricolor it became clear that we were not only being seen, but the big
guys were actually making course changes to avoid us.

By all means get the tricolor. Your first goal is to be seen by
others, then they can figure out the distance.


Another problem with the Red over Green that Max suggested is that there has to
be a vertical separation of not less than 1 metre between the two.

See page 4 of:

http://www.uscgboating.org/recalls/p....pdf#navlights


Brian C

Tricolour masthead lights
 

Both Wayne and Brian brought up some good points. The red over green
masthead with lower sidelights is simply the ideal combination from the
point of view of commercial shipping, which is the only point of view I
know, having never sailed offshore in anything but freighters. As these
two gentlemen pointed out, the idea may have practical problems that I
don't know about.

If you were forced to choose between deck level lights alone or a
tricolour masthead, then go for the tricolour masthead, because it's
the most visible of the two. If you can get around the practical
problems, I maintain that my original suggestion is safest, because
more lights are better, and more distinctive lights are better.

LED lights may deal with the problem of extra power drain. As far as I
know, with LEDs, you can put up a whole christmas tree for the same
power draw as a few incadescent bulbs. For the 1m seperation problem, I
guess that depends on your boat. They don't necessarily need to project
1m above your mast; you can have the red all-round at the very top, and
mount the green on the mast proper, 1m below. The rules allow for that
light to be "split" into two seperate lights on either side of the
mast, should you wish, as long as they look like a single light at a
distance of 1 mile. That way, they won't both be obscured by the sails,
won't foul the jib and you wouldn't need a 1m light(ning) rod
projecting from the top of your mast as in Brian's document.

Criticism, praise and refutals welcome.

-max

Wayne.B wrote:
On 20 Oct 2006 16:18:09 -0700, "max camirand"
wrote:

Do yourself a big favor and DO NOT opt for the tricolour mastead light
allowed under colregs Rule 25b, especially if you plan to go offshore.
The problem is with visibility to other ships. Sure, they're easier to
see because they're high up, but on a dark night, where a watchkeeper
on a cargo ship may be judging your distance by the light's height on
the horizon, he may think that you're far away while you're almost up
against him.

I disagree based on my own experiences sailing at night in the
proximity of commercial shipping.

Before we got the masthead tricolor commercial ships acted as though
we were totally invisible, and probably we were. After getting the
tricolor it became clear that we were not only being seen, but the big
guys were actually making course changes to avoid us.

By all means get the tricolor. Your first goal is to be seen by
others, then they can figure out the distance.

Tricolour masthead lights
 

White light must not be seeing from up ahead, approaching vessels.
only from vessels on both sides and behind. All around white light
only when anchored. fair winds!
wrote:
Ooops, November 3rd must be smartassday.

I understand that you can't show the all around white light
directly above the red green, but I thought that one can
combine steaming and rear (~12m), so what is wrong
with the combinations above?


Not quite.

Read and understand my previous post.


Lew

Tricolour masthead lights
 

Well Said Chris. RULE 25, Rules.
max camirand wrote:
Chris,

I didn't really understand what lights you were describing, so I'm
going to include the relevant rules. When you're sailing, you fall
under rule 25 abc unless you're under 7 meters long (approx 22 feet).
When you're motoring, you're under Rule 23. I can't recall if you told
us how long your boat is. That would help refine the requirements.

Rule 25

Sailing Vessels Underway and Vessels Under Oars

(a) a sailing vessel underway shall exhibit:

(i) sidelights;

(ii) a sternlight.

(b) In a sailing vessel of less than 20 meters in length the lights
prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule may be combined in one lantern
carried at or near the top of the mast where it can best be seen.

(c) A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed
in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit at or near the top of the mast,
where they can best be seen, two all-round lights in a vertical line,
the upper being red and the lower Green, but these lights shall not be
exhibited in conjunction with the combined lantern permitted by
paragraph (b) of this Rule.

[snip]

=====


Rule 23

power driven Vessels Underway

(a) A power driven vessel underway shall exhibit:

(i) a masthead light forward;

(ii) a second masthead light abaft of and higher than the forward one;

except that a vessel of less than 50 meters in length shall not be
obliged to exhibit such a light but may do so;

(iii) sidelights: and

(iv) a sternlight.

(b) An air-cushion vessel when operating in non-displacement mode
shall, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this
Rule, exhibit an all-round flashing yellow light.

(c)

(i) A power driven vessel of less than 12 meters in length may in lieu
of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule exhibit an
all-round white light and sidelights.

(ii) a power driven vessel of less than 7 meters in length whose
maximum speed does not exceed 7 knots may in lieu of the lights
prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule exhibit an all-round white
light and shall, if practicable, also exhibit sidelights.

(iii) the masthead light or all-round white light on a power driven
vessel of less than 12 meters in length may be displaced from the fore
and aft centerline of the vessel if centerline fitting is not
practicable, provided the sidelights are combined in one lantern which
shall be carried on the fore and aft centerline of the vessel or
located as nearly as practicable in the same fore and aft line as the
masthead light or all-round white light.



wrote:
Ooops, November 3rd must be smartassday.

I understand that you can't show the all around white light
directly above the red green, but I thought that one can
combine steaming and rear (~12m), so what is wrong
with the combinations above?


Not quite.

Read and understand my previous post.


Lew

Tricolour masthead lights
 

gooVal wrote:

White light must not be seeing from up ahead, approaching vessels.
only from vessels on both sides and behind. All around white light
only when anchored. fair winds!

I suggest you read the regs again, specifically power driven vessel under 12m....

FWIW, does not a "steaming" light display ahead ?

Brian C

wrote:

Ooops, November 3rd must be smartassday.

I understand that you can't show the all around white light
directly above the red green, but I thought that one can
combine steaming and rear (~12m), so what is wrong
with the combinations above?



Not quite.

Read and understand my previous post.


Lew