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Stitch & glue, cable ties?
I am about to embark on building a 10 ft stitch and glue dinghy, a Dudly
Dix, Argie 10. I would think this has been asked, but so far I haven't found it. Can I use those plastic self cinching cable ties to hold the panels together until I glass them? I would think they would sand off more smoothly than wire? Any thoughts? Jonathan |
Stitch & glue, cable ties?
"Jonathan" wrote in message ... I am about to embark on building a 10 ft stitch and glue dinghy, a Dudly Dix, Argie 10. I would think this has been asked, but so far I haven't found it. Can I use those plastic self cinching cable ties to hold the panels together until I glass them? I would think they would sand off more smoothly than wire? Any thoughts? Jonathan Yes you can. Use as few as possible to keep the shape fair, more in areas of high curvature, typically near the bow. -- Evan Gatehouse you'll have to rewrite my email address to get to me ceilydh AT 3web dot net (fools the spammers) |
Stitch & glue, cable ties?
"Jonathan" wrote in message ... I am about to embark on building a 10 ft stitch and glue dinghy, a Dudly Dix, Argie 10. I would think this has been asked, but so far I haven't found it. Can I use those plastic self cinching cable ties to hold the panels together until I glass them? I would think they would sand off more smoothly than wire? Any thoughts? Jonathan Yes you can. Use as few as possible to keep the shape fair, more in areas of high curvature, typically near the bow. -- Evan Gatehouse you'll have to rewrite my email address to get to me ceilydh AT 3web dot net (fools the spammers) |
Stitch & glue, cable ties?
You can go that route.
Here's how I do it (I'm sure not everyone will agree). Keep in mind I just do kayaks and canoes. I do "tack welds". The hull is stitched together and then I apply a small amount of filleting material on each side of the cable tie and let it cure (don't forget to precoat the weld areas with some resin). Then I cut the cable ties/stitches and remove. Fill in the holes as you fillet the seams. You have to be careful doing this as the tack welds will crack if you shift the hull. That's why I'll only do this process one seam at a time...tack weld, remove stitches, seam fillet, glass, and then repeat. It's some extra steps but it's how I prefer it. -- Matt Langenfeld JEM Watercraft jemwatercraft.com Jonathan wrote: I am about to embark on building a 10 ft stitch and glue dinghy, a Dudly Dix, Argie 10. I would think this has been asked, but so far I haven't found it. Can I use those plastic self cinching cable ties to hold the panels together until I glass them? I would think they would sand off more smoothly than wire? Any thoughts? Jonathan |
Stitch & glue, cable ties?
"Evan Gatehouse" wrote in message ...
"Jonathan" wrote in message ... I am about to embark on building a 10 ft stitch and glue dinghy, a Dudly Dix, Argie 10. I would think this has been asked, but so far I haven't found it. Can I use those plastic self cinching cable ties to hold the panels together until I glass them? I would think they would sand off more smoothly than wire? Any thoughts? Jonathan Yes you can. Use as few as possible to keep the shape fair, more in areas of high curvature, typically near the bow. With all due respect to Evan I have another opinion to share. You can use plastic ties but don't. Go to home depot or such and get some 7 strand copper ground wire, or a couple of packages of 18 guage copper wire, cut it into 4" pieces and fold them over so they look like "U" nails. The seven strand is thicker but of course holds better. Plastic ties can not be easily re-opened and tweaked during your tie up and there will be times when you want to loosen one or two and readjust, with ties you can only cut and redo them if that need arises and completely cutting them to adjust can cause even more problems. Ties click, and sometimes to get things really fair, you could use a half a click, not possible with ties. Copper is much easier to shape and string through the holes, you can use a much smaller hole, you just have a lot more control. As to sanding, snip the copper off low with snips and then touch gently a few times with your sander and it should come right down fair, they will sand down just fine with a little soft touch. You may rip a couple of pieces of paper but all in all after some 70 stitch and tape boats, having tried almost everything, I still use copper wire. I do keep a lot of sizes on hand but only for flexability with custom work. Scotty, back to the hunt.. |
Stitch & glue, cable ties?
thank you for the information.
i think i will go for the copper solution, looks like the moste logical...for adjusting and so on... how would be the best way to glue the two parts toghether? (sorry for such a stupid question, but im a newbie :-) ) mat "Backyard Renegade" wrote in message om... "Evan Gatehouse" wrote in message ... "Jonathan" wrote in message ... I am about to embark on building a 10 ft stitch and glue dinghy, a Dudly Dix, Argie 10. I would think this has been asked, but so far I haven't found it. Can I use those plastic self cinching cable ties to hold the panels together until I glass them? I would think they would sand off more smoothly than wire? Any thoughts? Jonathan Yes you can. Use as few as possible to keep the shape fair, more in areas of high curvature, typically near the bow. With all due respect to Evan I have another opinion to share. You can use plastic ties but don't. Go to home depot or such and get some 7 strand copper ground wire, or a couple of packages of 18 guage copper wire, cut it into 4" pieces and fold them over so they look like "U" nails. The seven strand is thicker but of course holds better. Plastic ties can not be easily re-opened and tweaked during your tie up and there will be times when you want to loosen one or two and readjust, with ties you can only cut and redo them if that need arises and completely cutting them to adjust can cause even more problems. Ties click, and sometimes to get things really fair, you could use a half a click, not possible with ties. Copper is much easier to shape and string through the holes, you can use a much smaller hole, you just have a lot more control. As to sanding, snip the copper off low with snips and then touch gently a few times with your sander and it should come right down fair, they will sand down just fine with a little soft touch. You may rip a couple of pieces of paper but all in all after some 70 stitch and tape boats, having tried almost everything, I still use copper wire. I do keep a lot of sizes on hand but only for flexability with custom work. Scotty, back to the hunt.. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 18/06/2004 |
Stitch & glue, cable ties?
"Matthias Broersma" wrote...
how would be the best way to glue the two parts toghether? (sorry for such a stupid question, but im a newbie :-) ) For their kayak kits, Pygmy Boats recommends you simply fill in the outside seam with thickened epoxy (use wood flour if you will finish it bright; wood flour or silica if you will paint it) to glue the panels together, then remove the wires before doing any taping. The epoxy glues the joint and serves as the base for the tape/cloth wrapped around the joint, reducing the probability of voids under the tape. If you pull the wires before the epoxy fully cures (within 24 hours), it is possible to snip and pull out most, if not all the wires before laying any cloth or tape. Then fair the areas around the holes. Small voids, as well as the wire holes, will fill in when you saturate the tape/cloth with epoxy. After that, lay the cloth or tape on the outside and squeegee in the epoxy. Finally, fillet the inside joint with thickened epoxy before taping. The rounded fillet will give more strength than the sharp turn of tape/cloth. |
Stitch & glue, cable ties?
"Matthias Broersma" wrote...
how would be the best way to glue the two parts toghether? (sorry for such a stupid question, but im a newbie :-) ) For their kayak kits, Pygmy Boats recommends you simply fill in the outside seam with thickened epoxy (use wood flour if you will finish it bright; wood flour or silica if you will paint it) to glue the panels together, then remove the wires before doing any taping. The epoxy glues the joint and serves as the base for the tape/cloth wrapped around the joint, reducing the probability of voids under the tape. If you pull the wires before the epoxy fully cures (within 24 hours), it is possible to snip and pull out most, if not all the wires before laying any cloth or tape. Then fair the areas around the holes. Small voids, as well as the wire holes, will fill in when you saturate the tape/cloth with epoxy. After that, lay the cloth or tape on the outside and squeegee in the epoxy. Finally, fillet the inside joint with thickened epoxy before taping. The rounded fillet will give more strength than the sharp turn of tape/cloth. |
Stitch & glue, cable ties?
"Matthias Broersma" matthias.broersmaATNOSPAMPLEASEfastwebnet.it wrote in message li.nl...
thank you for the information. i think i will go for the copper solution, looks like the moste logical...for adjusting and so on... how would be the best way to glue the two parts toghether? (sorry for such a stupid question, but im a newbie :-) ) mat You will need to build a lamination of epoxy and fiberglass on either side or the seam. You really should get ahold of the book "Build the new instant boats" by Dynamite Payson, available at "instantboats.com" or the local library or bookstore. Anyway, it is a quick read and will walk you through the whole stitch and tape process start to finish and add enough info so you don't have to spend your days here. After reading this book you will have most of it down, no problem, especially having experience with tools. It's a quick read, hour at the most, less than 200 pages and filled with pictures and plans for 6 other small boats... Scotty who does have a business realationship with Dynamite that is not necessarily related to building boats, however, I get no commissions or similar for my suggestions here on the list.. "Backyard Renegade" wrote in message om... "Evan Gatehouse" wrote in message ... "Jonathan" wrote in message ... I am about to embark on building a 10 ft stitch and glue dinghy, a Dudly Dix, Argie 10. I would think this has been asked, but so far I haven't found it. Can I use those plastic self cinching cable ties to hold the panels together until I glass them? I would think they would sand off more smoothly than wire? Any thoughts? Jonathan Yes you can. Use as few as possible to keep the shape fair, more in areas of high curvature, typically near the bow. With all due respect to Evan I have another opinion to share. You can use plastic ties but don't. Go to home depot or such and get some 7 strand copper ground wire, or a couple of packages of 18 guage copper wire, cut it into 4" pieces and fold them over so they look like "U" nails. The seven strand is thicker but of course holds better. Plastic ties can not be easily re-opened and tweaked during your tie up and there will be times when you want to loosen one or two and readjust, with ties you can only cut and redo them if that need arises and completely cutting them to adjust can cause even more problems. Ties click, and sometimes to get things really fair, you could use a half a click, not possible with ties. Copper is much easier to shape and string through the holes, you can use a much smaller hole, you just have a lot more control. As to sanding, snip the copper off low with snips and then touch gently a few times with your sander and it should come right down fair, they will sand down just fine with a little soft touch. You may rip a couple of pieces of paper but all in all after some 70 stitch and tape boats, having tried almost everything, I still use copper wire. I do keep a lot of sizes on hand but only for flexability with custom work. Scotty, back to the hunt.. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 18/06/2004 |
Stitch & glue, cable ties?
Jonathan wrote in message ...
I am about to embark on building a 10 ft stitch and glue dinghy, a Dudly Dix, Argie 10. I would think this has been asked, but so far I haven't found it. Can I use those plastic self cinching cable ties to hold the panels together until I glass them? I would think they would sand off more smoothly than wire? Any thoughts? Jonathan Thousands of our designs were built with plastic ties. They are easy to adjust, don't hurt your fingers, can be left in the resin and sanded down. See pictures of construction with plastic ties in our builders galleries: http://forums.bateau2.com/gallery/ I think that Devlin abandonned copper wire for plastic ties. It is not a very important decision anyway: I have used duct tape too, works well on small hulls with smooth bending. Jacques from bateau.com |
Stitch & glue, cable ties?
Rick Tyler wrote in message . ..
On 24 Jun 2004 05:34:49 -0700, (Backyard Renegade) wrote: "Evan Gatehouse" wrote Yes you can [use cable ties for S&G boats]. With all due respect to Evan I have another opinion to share. You can use plastic ties but don't. Go to home depot or such and get some 7 strand copper ground wire, or a couple of packages of 18 guage copper wire, cut it into 4" pieces and fold them over so they look like "U" nails. (snip) Scotty's several dozen S&G boats ahead of me, but I think copper sucks for stitching boats together. I use hefty cable ties, and when I need to loosen one up, I do what Scotty says -- I snip them off and put in a new one. I find that copper either breaks when I twist it with pliers, or, if I use thick wire, pulls out of the plywood. It also stabs me in the fingers so often I feel like I've been playing with barbed wire or blackberry vines. Yeah, I like pain.. I also wait till mid July to do all my sheathing;) Really, I must admit to using many things along the road. My philosophy with ties is to use as few as possible and a little masking tape where the strong hold is not needed. I tried also the hot glue tabs but if you really hate the copper you can always heat the wire and pull it out after the epoxy has set. The key is to use what works for you, they are only temporary attachments. Actually since reading his other post about wanting to build the boat in two weeks with his daughter, I would have suggested a skin (plywood) on frame boat like a small pointy skiff or something anyway. A noobie is not going to build a S+T in two weeks in most cases... Scotty Who makes better trucks: Chevy, Ford, Dodge, or Toyota? Ask four people, get four answers. All of them will get the job done. Same with stitches. Jacques Merten's tech support web site has some good "how to" articles for beginners. Check he http://bateau2.com/content/section/5/28/. Have fun. You can't build just one! - Rick Tyler |
Stitch & glue, cable ties?--build time?
Backyard Renegade wrote: Rick Tyler wrote in message . .. On 24 Jun 2004 05:34:49 -0700, (Backyard Renegade) wrote: (snip) Scotty's several dozen S&G boats ahead of me, but I think copper sucks for stitching boats together. I use hefty cable ties, and when I need to loosen one up, I do what Scotty says -- I snip them off and put in a new one. I find that copper either breaks when I twist it with pliers, or, if I use thick wire, pulls out of the plywood. It also stabs me in the fingers so often I feel like I've been playing with snip....... Actually since reading his other post about wanting to build the boat in two weeks with his daughter, I would have suggested a skin (plywood) on frame boat like a small pointy skiff or something anyway. A noobie is not going to build a S+T in two weeks in most cases... Scotty I'm curious as to why you might think that? (That it will take more than two dedicated weeks) Actually I am more curious as to what pitfalls you see me stumbling into that i can't see,( still having the blissful veil of ignorance). As I think about it, there is the obvious, i.e. scheduling boat work is best accomplished by estimating the time required, then multiplying by 2.5, so that you will only be short by 30% of your estimate :) but are there any common pitfalls that I might avoid with a few suggestions/pointers by others? |
Stitch & glue, cable ties?--build time?
The delay factors would include waiting for epoxy to cure ...you'd be surprised at how many times you have to do something, then wait wait. With experience, you can figure out how to order steps so you can do a nice job and do things wet-on-wet. Also, beginners tend to spend more time futzing around with getting the right amount of thickener in the epoxy, applying it carefully, trying to get fiberglass to work the way you expected etcetera. Most boats cannot be built in 2 weeks, unless it's very simple and you have some knowledge about what you are doing, and everything is already acquired and ready to go. The reason that Scotty mentioned skin on frame is because you can basically work non-stop as time and energy permits. No waiting on curing except when you are done, you generally must wait for sealants to cure before painting. That depends on which you select. -- http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass -- My 22' Tolman Skiff project .. "Jonathan" wrote in message ... Backyard Renegade wrote: Rick Tyler wrote in message . .. On 24 Jun 2004 05:34:49 -0700, (Backyard Renegade) wrote: (snip) Scotty's several dozen S&G boats ahead of me, but I think copper sucks for stitching boats together. I use hefty cable ties, and when I need to loosen one up, I do what Scotty says -- I snip them off and put in a new one. I find that copper either breaks when I twist it with pliers, or, if I use thick wire, pulls out of the plywood. It also stabs me in the fingers so often I feel like I've been playing with snip....... Actually since reading his other post about wanting to build the boat in two weeks with his daughter, I would have suggested a skin (plywood) on frame boat like a small pointy skiff or something anyway. A noobie is not going to build a S+T in two weeks in most cases... Scotty I'm curious as to why you might think that? (That it will take more than two dedicated weeks) Actually I am more curious as to what pitfalls you see me stumbling into that i can't see,( still having the blissful veil of ignorance). As I think about it, there is the obvious, i.e. scheduling boat work is best accomplished by estimating the time required, then multiplying by 2.5, so that you will only be short by 30% of your estimate :) but are there any common pitfalls that I might avoid with a few suggestions/pointers by others? |
Stitch & glue, cable ties?--build time?
Jonathan ) writes:
I'm curious as to why you might think that? (That it will take more than two dedicated weeks) I don't know that it would take quite that long, but you can see under "Boats" on my website (address below) a example of a project plan I did for a small boat with Microsoft Project 97. Actually I am more curious as to what pitfalls you see me stumbling into that i can't see,( still having the blissful veil of ignorance). getting the hull lined up in all 3 dimensions is one. getting things cut out and put together right way 'round and right side up is another. (you are working at least part of the time on an upside down boat) the usual estimate is half the time for the plywood, the other half for the rest (gunwales, seats, oarlocks, etc.), and then the sailing rig is extra if you want to sail the boat. seems all of the little pieces have to be cut at some angle other than 90 degress to fit the curved hull. I'd suggest getting the basic hull complete and then finishing the rest off as you use the boat. I'm still making changes to boats I built 4 years ago. As I think about it, there is the obvious, i.e. scheduling boat work is best accomplished by estimating the time required, then multiplying by 2.5, so that you will only be short by 30% of your estimate :) but are there any common pitfalls that I might avoid with a few suggestions/pointers by others? still Harold Payson can cut out and build a 16 foot Windsprint "instant" sailboat hull in one afternoon with the help of an assistant. screw and glue construction is faster because the screws hold everything togther while the glue cures so you can keep right on working without having to stop a day and wait for the glue to harden. Payson used nails. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Stitch & glue--build time? pitfalls...
Ah....well.While assembling a dinghy from sheets of plywood is a new
endeavor, I have been using epoxy and it's many additives for 15 years or so, using about a gallon a year in different applications on the job. As a carpenter/construction manager I've found many applications for its gap filling and adhesive qualities, both in work on boats and on more pedestrian projects. I do have questions like: do I want to assemble the two sides of the bottom together, then attach the sides, or do I want to assemble the two halves of the boat and put them together down the middle? The designer provided layouts with a very efficient utilization of the plywood, something that strikes me as possibly taking a lot of time to figure out otherwise. One of the sheets says to make two sets (it is the bottom halves and the sides) I am inclined to lay out one sheet, cut it out, then trace the second set? as opposed to the time taken to lay out the second one again, plotting each of the curves again.....any thought? I have every thing I need, except for the mast, boom and a gooseneck for the boom... Still, it is a boat, which has it's own force field of surprises. Any thoughts appreciated. Jonathan Brian D wrote: The delay factors would include waiting for epoxy to cure ...you'd be surprised at how many times you have to do something, then wait wait. With experience, you can figure out how to order steps so you can do a nice job and do things wet-on-wet. Also, beginners tend to spend more time futzing around with getting the right amount of thickener in the epoxy, applying it carefully, trying to get fiberglass to work the way you expected etcetera. Most boats cannot be built in 2 weeks, unless it's very simple and you have some knowledge about what you are doing, and everything is already acquired and ready to go. The reason that Scotty mentioned skin on frame is because you can basically work non-stop as time and energy permits. No waiting on curing except when you are done, you generally must wait for sealants to cure before painting. That depends on which you select. |
Stitch & glue, cable ties?
On the two boats I've built, I've used the cable ties. They don't bond well with epoxy so can generally remove them with pliers after epoxy as set
up. Also, if they do break and get left in the epoxy, they sand away into dust.... paul oman progressive epoxy polymers |
Stitch & glue, cable ties?--build time?
Jonathan wrote in message ...
Backyard Renegade wrote: Rick Tyler wrote in message . .. On 24 Jun 2004 05:34:49 -0700, (Backyard Renegade) wrote: (snip) Scotty's several dozen S&G boats ahead of me, but I think copper sucks for stitching boats together. I use hefty cable ties, and when I need to loosen one up, I do what Scotty says -- I snip them off and put in a new one. I find that copper either breaks when I twist it with pliers, or, if I use thick wire, pulls out of the plywood. It also stabs me in the fingers so often I feel like I've been playing with snip....... Actually since reading his other post about wanting to build the boat in two weeks with his daughter, I would have suggested a skin (plywood) on frame boat like a small pointy skiff or something anyway. A noobie is not going to build a S+T in two weeks in most cases... Scotty I'm curious as to why you might think that? (That it will take more than two dedicated weeks) Actually I am more curious as to what pitfalls you see me stumbling into that i can't see,( still having the blissful veil of ignorance). As I think about it, there is the obvious, i.e. scheduling boat work is best accomplished by estimating the time required, then multiplying by 2.5, so that you will only be short by 30% of your estimate :) but are there any common pitfalls that I might avoid with a few suggestions/pointers by others? Call me over the weekend, my number is on my website, smallboats.com Scotty, I will be here today (6/26/04) most of the day and tomorrow... never call me before 10am... |
Stitch & glue, cable ties?--build time?
Jonathan wrote in message
I'm curious as to why you might think that? (That it will take more than two dedicated weeks) Actually I am more curious as to what pitfalls you see me stumbling into that i can't see,( still having the blissful veil of ignorance). As I think about it, there is the obvious, i.e. scheduling boat work is best accomplished by estimating the time required, then multiplying by 2.5, so that you will only be short by 30% of your estimate :) but are there any common pitfalls that I might avoid with a few suggestions/pointers by others? Hey I just found this for another guy and though of you. http://www.microcruising.com/ding1.htm Not trying to be a wiseass here, better to shoot a little low and be successful, than to chew off more than you can chew and fail. This boat would allow more input from your daughter and you can take your time and finish it up easy, maybe even time for here to add her own paint scheme;) She will not get bored and you will not get left at the end of vacation with a half finished project and a dissappointed family. The fact is, it will not be the last boat you build, it's just how this addiciton goes, you can still build a nice s+t in your spare time over the summer or fall. No reason not to cut your teeth with a simple and almost guaranteed successful first build.. Scotty |
Stitch & glue, cable ties?--build time?
|
Stitch & glue, cable ties?--build time?
Backyard Renegade wrote: Jonathan wrote in message I'm curious as to why you might think that? (That it will take more than two dedicated weeks) Actually I am more curious as to what pitfalls you see me stumbling into that i can't see,( still having the blissful veil of ignorance). As I think about it, there is the obvious, i.e. scheduling boat work is best accomplished by estimating the time required, then multiplying by 2.5, so that you will only be short by 30% of your estimate :) but are there any common pitfalls that I might avoid with a few suggestions/pointers by others? Hey I just found this for another guy and though of you. http://www.microcruising.com/ding1.htm Not trying to be a wiseass here, better to shoot a little low and be successful, than to chew off more than you can chew and fail. This boat would allow more input from your daughter and you can take your time and finish it up easy, maybe even time for here to add her own paint scheme;) She will not get bored and you will not get left at the end of vacation with a half finished project and a dissappointed family. The fact is, it will not be the last boat you build, it's just how this addiciton goes, you can still build a nice s+t in your spare time over the summer or fall. No reason not to cut your teeth with a simple and almost guaranteed successful first build.. Scotty I appreciate the thought, and one of my questions was answered. (do I want to layout the sides twice, or lay out once, cut then trace them) I was leaning toward tracing it anyway .... I am committed to this design (I am committed to a sailing dinghy in any event) for her to putter around in after we anchor in the evenings. Every little bit of knowledge that someone thinks to share is one error I might not make the first time, so I appreciate all efforts :) Jonathan |
Stitch & glue--build time? pitfalls...
Jonathan wrote in message ...
Ah....well.While assembling a dinghy from sheets of plywood is a new endeavor, I have been using epoxy and it's many additives for 15 years or so, using about a gallon a year in different applications on the job. As a carpenter/construction manager I've found many applications for its gap filling and adhesive qualities, both in work on boats and on more pedestrian projects. I do have questions like: do I want to assemble the two sides of the bottom together, then attach the sides, or do I want to assemble the two halves of the boat and put them together down the middle? The designer provided layouts with a very efficient utilization of the plywood, something that strikes me as possibly taking a lot of time to figure out otherwise. One of the sheets says to make two sets (it is the bottom halves and the sides) I am inclined to lay out one sheet, cut it out, then trace the second set? as opposed to the time taken to lay out the second one again, plotting each of the curves again.....any thought? I have every thing I need, except for the mast, boom and a gooseneck for the boom... Still, it is a boat, which has it's own force field of surprises. Any thoughts appreciated. Jonathan Well, we have all given you our thoughts for almost a week, you choose to keep trying to squirm around them... Time to **** or get off the pot! Brian D wrote: The delay factors would include waiting for epoxy to cure ...you'd be surprised at how many times you have to do something, then wait wait. With experience, you can figure out how to order steps so you can do a nice job and do things wet-on-wet. Also, beginners tend to spend more time futzing around with getting the right amount of thickener in the epoxy, applying it carefully, trying to get fiberglass to work the way you expected etcetera. Most boats cannot be built in 2 weeks, unless it's very simple and you have some knowledge about what you are doing, and everything is already acquired and ready to go. The reason that Scotty mentioned skin on frame is because you can basically work non-stop as time and energy permits. No waiting on curing except when you are done, you generally must wait for sealants to cure before painting. That depends on which you select. |
Stitch & glue, cable ties?--build time?
"Brian D" writes:
Also, beginners tend to spend more time futzing around with getting the right amount of thickener in the epoxy, applying it carefully, trying to get fiberglass to work the way you expected etcetera. You forgot the part where the beginner plops himself down in Chapelle's "wailing chair", stews over the obvious mistake, grinds off two days worth of fiberglass and epoxy, then starts over. Plus mixing too much epoxy, and having it go off in the pot. I bought two one ounce pumps, for my first epoxy boats (five cheap canoes). I mix up 3oz batches, apply that, then mix another. I also use super slow epoxy resin. Where I live (Sacramento) it's often 110F, and slow epoxy can go off in a few minutes under some conditions. -- I don't speak for Intel Michael Kelly (the one in Folsom) "and nobody is fooled except the usual fools." --Jonah Goldberg |
Stitch & glue, cable ties?--build time?
I'm surprised that your designer didn't give more instructions on how to
assemble the pieces. Basically every variation exists, and most are designed to allow a little natural error in the process, e.g. wood bends a little different. Others are very exact and you make the wood conform rather than the design conforming to the wood. For example, some boats use various methods to build the sides, then fit and mark the bottom to the boat. Others have you make the bottom assembly and fit the sides to it. Some use forms, some don't. Square (measure diagonals) and level cross the board are the first rules, and faire curves are the next. Concerning your questions about the sides, note that you can and should do whatever you can to provide symmetry to the boat. On side panels, you will typically do the best you can on one panel, then trace it out on a second and cut it out very carefully. After cutting, you can clamp them face to face and do what you need to in order to make them the same ...planing, sanding, etcetera ...always keeping as close to design as you can and also maintaining fair curves.. One of my favorite techniques is to use a top (closer to router) bearing template bit on my router. Make the first panel as described, then use it as a template for a router for cutting out the second side. Be careful with the bits though, since many light boats use thin plywood. Often times, the router bit's guide bearing will miss the template when the cutter portion is aligned well with the piece getting cut. This can cause the bearing to ride over the ply and the cutter will dig into both pieces. If you really want perfection, you can make a very nice template from thicker ply then use it as a template to cut out both sides. Brian -- http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass -- My 22' Tolman Skiff project .. "Jonathan" wrote in message ... Backyard Renegade wrote: Jonathan wrote in message I'm curious as to why you might think that? (That it will take more than two dedicated weeks) Actually I am more curious as to what pitfalls you see me stumbling into that i can't see,( still having the blissful veil of ignorance). As I think about it, there is the obvious, i.e. scheduling boat work is best accomplished by estimating the time required, then multiplying by 2.5, so that you will only be short by 30% of your estimate :) but are there any common pitfalls that I might avoid with a few suggestions/pointers by others? Hey I just found this for another guy and though of you. http://www.microcruising.com/ding1.htm Not trying to be a wiseass here, better to shoot a little low and be successful, than to chew off more than you can chew and fail. This boat would allow more input from your daughter and you can take your time and finish it up easy, maybe even time for here to add her own paint scheme;) She will not get bored and you will not get left at the end of vacation with a half finished project and a dissappointed family. The fact is, it will not be the last boat you build, it's just how this addiciton goes, you can still build a nice s+t in your spare time over the summer or fall. No reason not to cut your teeth with a simple and almost guaranteed successful first build.. Scotty I appreciate the thought, and one of my questions was answered. (do I want to layout the sides twice, or lay out once, cut then trace them) I was leaning toward tracing it anyway .... I am committed to this design (I am committed to a sailing dinghy in any event) for her to putter around in after we anchor in the evenings. Every little bit of knowledge that someone thinks to share is one error I might not make the first time, so I appreciate all efforts :) Jonathan |
Stitch & glue, cable ties?--build time?
Oh man!! I thought it was a **moaning** chair not a *wailing* chair! ...I never gat anyting rite! Brian D -- http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass -- My 22' Tolman Skiff project .. "Michael Kelly - FMEC ~" wrote in message ... "Brian D" writes: Also, beginners tend to spend more time futzing around with getting the right amount of thickener in the epoxy, applying it carefully, trying to get fiberglass to work the way you expected etcetera. You forgot the part where the beginner plops himself down in Chapelle's "wailing chair", stews over the obvious mistake, grinds off two days worth of fiberglass and epoxy, then starts over. Plus mixing too much epoxy, and having it go off in the pot. I bought two one ounce pumps, for my first epoxy boats (five cheap canoes). I mix up 3oz batches, apply that, then mix another. I also use super slow epoxy resin. Where I live (Sacramento) it's often 110F, and slow epoxy can go off in a few minutes under some conditions. -- I don't speak for Intel Michael Kelly (the one in Folsom) "and nobody is fooled except the usual fools." --Jonah Goldberg |
Stitch & glue, cable ties?--build time?
Thanks for the info.
I am surprised that there isn't alittle more information as well, now that I am getting down to it and actually facing the construction. I cut out one side and bottom, cleaned up the edges, and traced the second from that. I had to cut the second by hand, with my Bosch (sabre) saw, and on first fit they are close enough. Clamped together I will sand them as one this afternoon. The drawings don't show butt blocks where the side panels need to be extended from 8 to 10 ft, and there isn't enough wood to lose any inches on a scarph (thank christ, I don't want to learn that little skill on this project). All the pieces are now cut out, and I think I'll see how they fit together with wire/ties. Maybe that will give me some clue as to what the designer was thinking. Thank you for your thoughts, they are giving me an idea how to proceed. Jonathan Brian D wrote: I'm surprised that your designer didn't give more instructions on how to assemble the pieces. Basically every variation exists, and most are designed to allow a little natural error in the process, e.g. wood bends a little different. Others are very exact and you make the wood conform rather than the design conforming to the wood. For example, some boats use various methods to build the sides, then fit and mark the bottom to the boat. Others have you make the bottom assembly and fit the sides to it. Some use forms, some don't. Square (measure diagonals) and level cross the board are the first rules, and faire curves are the next. Concerning your questions about the sides, note that you can and should do whatever you can to provide symmetry to the boat. On side panels, you will typically do the best you can on one panel, then trace it out on a second and cut it out very carefully. After cutting, you can clamp them face to face and do what you need to in order to make them the same ...planing, sanding, etcetera ...always keeping as close to design as you can and also maintaining fair curves.. One of my favorite techniques is to use a top (closer to router) bearing template bit on my router. Make the first panel as described, then use it as a template for a router for cutting out the second side. Be careful with the bits though, since many light boats use thin plywood. Often times, the router bit's guide bearing will miss the template when the cutter portion is aligned well with the piece getting cut. This can cause the bearing to ride over the ply and the cutter will dig into both pieces. If you really want perfection, you can make a very nice template from thicker ply then use it as a template to cut out both sides. Brian |
Stitch & glue, cable ties?--build time?
Jonathan ) writes:
The drawings don't show butt blocks where the side panels need to be extended from 8 to 10 ft, and there isn't enough wood to lose any inches on a scarph (thank christ, I don't want to learn that little skill on this project). you might be expected to use a taped fibreglass butt join. very common. stonger than plywood. lay resin impregnated fibreglass over the join and let cure. optionally turn over and tape other side of join. check building instructions. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Stitch & glue, cable ties?--build time?
"William R. Watt" wrote in message
... you might be expected to use a taped fibreglass butt join. very common. stonger than plywood. lay resin impregnated fibreglass over the join and let cure. optionally turn over and tape other side of join. check building instructions. That is indeed exactly how Dudly Dix specifies it in his building instructions. Meindert |
Stitch & glue, cable ties?--build time?
Brian D wrote:
Oh man!! I thought it was a **moaning** chair not a *wailing* chair! ...I never gat anyting rite! Brian D Sorry, I lost my Chapelles ten years ago. My wife threw out my whole library, when the third kid came along, and the kid got billeted in my office. Now at least I get to build boats "for the children". ;-) Mike. |
Stitch & glue, cable ties?--build time?
Jonathan wrote:
I appreciate the thought, and one of my questions was answered. (do I want to layout the sides twice, or lay out once, cut then trace them) I was leaning toward tracing it anyway .... I traced mine with a router. Course with double-ender... |
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