benlizross wrote:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote on 23 Jun 2004
in article :

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote:

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

benlizross wrote:

[snip]

The mainland that the
Polynesians came from was Asia -- or at the very least, their sailing
technology came from there.

How so?

In actual fact, the evidence points elsewhere.

Really? Perhaps you could give some evidence in support of this amazing
claim.

There's a marked similarity between the Canadian West Coast
canoes and Polynesian canoes, for example.

And no similarity between Polynesian canoes and anything further west?
Goodness! But with all due respect to your vast nautical knowledge,
Yuri, perhaps you could cite some credible authority who says so?

See below, Ross.

And
who describes the sailing techniques and deep-sea navigation systems of
these Canadian West Coast people?

You mean you don't know this?

Or are you trying to imply that there's nobody who had
described these things?

And then there would be the problem of
why the Polynesian words for "canoe", "outrigger", "sail", "paddle", etc
etc are of Austronesian origin....

Breathlessly awaiting your evidence.

Ross Clark

Linguistic evidence can never prove anything (outside of
linguistics, that is). At best, such evidence can only
_suggest_ some things, which then need to be proven by hard
physical evidence, such as archaeological.

Yes, I know you're chronically skeptical about linguistic evidence,
Yuri, since it almost never supports what you're trying to prove.

This is news to me...

Let's just say in this case all the "suggestions" go one way.

According to you.

Meanwhile, here's a "credible authority" for you. It seems
like you still have a lot to learn in this area...

"Their [Canadian West Coast Natives'] canoes are large and
roomy, capable of accommodating scores of men; they are made
with great skill and artistic talent; they are of all
primitive craft the most fitted for meeting the conditions
of oceanic voyaging, and have a great resemblance to the
Maori war canoe." (J. M. Brown, PEOPLES AND PROBLEMS OF THE
PACIFIC. London, 1927, Vol. II, p. 68)

This is it? Dear old Macmillan Brown? You were right to put "credible
authority" in quotes. But what does he actually tell us here?
The NW Coast people built big canoes. We knew that.
They resemble the Maori war canoe (JMB being a New Zealander). Hm. In
what way exactly?

Something for you to investigate perhaps.

Besides being big canoes made by peoples who have
access to big trees? Is there some particular detail of their structure
that would lead us to conclude that the one must have been derived from,
or inspired by, the other? JMB does not say.

It could be the carved bow and stern pieces, for example.

And finally they are "most fitted for meeting the conditions of oceanic
voyaging". Wait a minute. The Maori war canoe, as I understand it, is an
adaptation to lake and river travel (which were not an issue in tropical
Polynesia).

Your understanding may be wrong.

It is used along the coasts as well, of course, but you do
not cross an ocean in such a vessel. When the Maori, in recent years,
have taken up oceanic voyaging, they have built themselves big double
hulled canoes. With sails. And what about sails on the NW coast? I was
struck by Cook's statement that the Nootka knew nothing of sails. Is
there good evidence for them being used elsewhere on the NW coast? How
feasible is it to get from British Columbia to Polynesia without sails?

Now that you've crossposted this to some other groups, perhaps we'll get
some useful information.

Ross Clark

Same types of sail have been identified both in Canada and
NZ. Also, same type of double hulled canoes.

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

A great many people think they are thinking when they are
merely rearranging their prejudices -=O=- William James

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

Linguistic evidence can never prove anything (outside of
linguistics, that is). At best, such evidence can only
_suggest_ some things, which then need to be proven by hard
physical evidence, such as archaeological.

Yes, I know you're chronically skeptical about linguistic evidence,
Yuri, since it almost never supports what you're trying to prove.

This is news to me...

Let's just say in this case all the "suggestions" go one way.

According to you.

And to everyone else who actually knows something about it.

Meanwhile, here's a "credible authority" for you. It seems
like you still have a lot to learn in this area...

"Their [Canadian West Coast Natives'] canoes are large and
roomy, capable of accommodating scores of men; they are made
with great skill and artistic talent; they are of all
primitive craft the most fitted for meeting the conditions
of oceanic voyaging, and have a great resemblance to the
Maori war canoe." (J. M. Brown, PEOPLES AND PROBLEMS OF THE
PACIFIC. London, 1927, Vol. II, p. 68)

This is it? Dear old Macmillan Brown? You were right to put "credible
authority" in quotes. But what does he actually tell us here?
The NW Coast people built big canoes. We knew that.
They resemble the Maori war canoe (JMB being a New Zealander). Hm. In
what way exactly?

Something for you to investigate perhaps.

No, something for you to explain to us, since it is you who is putting
this forth as evidence for your claims.

Besides being big canoes made by peoples who have
access to big trees? Is there some particular detail of their structure
that would lead us to conclude that the one must have been derived from,
or inspired by, the other? JMB does not say.

It could be the carved bow and stern pieces, for example.

Uh huh? Just the existence of such things, or their particular form? You
can show that whatever it is is found nowhere else in the world?

And finally they are "most fitted for meeting the conditions of oceanic
voyaging". Wait a minute. The Maori war canoe, as I understand it, is an
adaptation to lake and river travel (which were not an issue in tropical
Polynesia).

Your understanding may be wrong.

It may be. Unfortunately your crossposting has not brought us any fresh
expertise from among the boat-builders or the New Zealanders. And I know
your understanding is no better than mine.

It is used along the coasts as well, of course, but you do
not cross an ocean in such a vessel. When the Maori, in recent years,
have taken up oceanic voyaging, they have built themselves big double
hulled canoes. With sails. And what about sails on the NW coast? I was
struck by Cook's statement that the Nootka knew nothing of sails. Is
there good evidence for them being used elsewhere on the NW coast? How
feasible is it to get from British Columbia to Polynesia without sails?

Now that you've crossposted this to some other groups, perhaps we'll get
some useful information.

Ross Clark

Same types of sail have been identified both in Canada and
NZ. Also, same type of double hulled canoes.

Reference?

Ross Clark

benlizross says:

snip

Unfortunately your crossposting has not brought us any fresh
expertise from among the boat-builders or the New Zealanders.

snip a bit more

Then FFS cut the cross-posting and leave us alone here in boat-building land.

Here's a clue (from New Zealand, no less...):
http://carcino.gen.nz/images/image.p...22/arguing.jpg

Tanx.

Steve

ospam (Stephen Baker) wrote in message ...
benlizross says:

snip

Unfortunately your crossposting has not brought us any fresh
expertise from among the boat-builders or the New Zealanders.

snip a bit more

Then FFS cut the cross-posting and leave us alone here in boat-building land.

Here's a clue (from New Zealand, no less...):
http://carcino.gen.nz/images/image.p...22/arguing.jpg

Tanx.
Yup. Down here in the Southern Pacific we don't know a lot about boat
building. Well apart from building boats that won the Americas Cup
twice and losing it to a Swiss team of New Zealanders.
Having a multibillion dollar small shipbuilding industry.
And as for sailing: well apart from the "Royal Akarana" and other
sailing races and having an Offshore Masters certificate from my
commercial fishing days I'm totally ignorant of ships :-)
Oh and I better tell you that helping build a Mullet taught me nothing
about boatbuilding !
Sheesh

George says:

Yup. Down here in the Southern Pacific we don't know a lot about boat
building. Well apart from building boats that won the Americas Cup
twice and losing it to a Swiss team of New Zealanders.
Having a multibillion dollar small shipbuilding industry.
And as for sailing: well apart from the "Royal Akarana" and other
sailing races and having an Offshore Masters certificate from my
commercial fishing days I'm totally ignorant of ships :-)
Oh and I better tell you that helping build a Mullet taught me nothing
about boatbuilding !
Sheesh

Sorry, George, but you point just whooshed past me.

Do you want to continue the cross-posting that has yielded nothing (at least
nothing benlizross wanted), or do you wish it to stop?

Or, are you simply trying to tell me that NZ is a great boat and ship-building
nation, in which case you could have saved you breath, since I knew that
already.

Steve "and we know nothing about boats in the States, either..."

ospam (Stephen Baker) wrote in message ...
George says:

Yup. Down here in the Southern Pacific we don't know a lot about boat
building. Well apart from building boats that won the Americas Cup
twice and losing it to a Swiss team of New Zealanders.
Having a multibillion dollar small shipbuilding industry.
And as for sailing: well apart from the "Royal Akarana" and other
sailing races and having an Offshore Masters certificate from my
commercial fishing days I'm totally ignorant of ships :-)
Oh and I better tell you that helping build a Mullet taught me nothing
about boatbuilding !
Sheesh

Sorry, George, but you point just whooshed past me.

As much as I'm not given to insulting people I shall, in this one
case' make an exception !
Yes I thought it might but then I do not often have to reduce my
language to an 8 year old reading level!

Do you want to continue the cross-posting that has yielded nothing (at least
nothing benlizross wanted), or do you wish it to stop?

Or, are you simply trying to tell me that NZ is a great boat and ship-building
nation, in which case you could have saved you breath, since I knew that
already.

Steve "and we know nothing about boats in the States, either..."

I'm sorry but what part of 'this is not a crosspost' eludes you ?

All this started when Yuri crossposted into your group in the faint
hope that you would all spring to his defence..

George says:

Sorry, George, but you point just whooshed past me.

As much as I'm not given to insulting people I shall, in this one
case' make an exception !
Yes I thought it might but then I do not often have to reduce my
language to an 8 year old reading level!

Well, if you can't explain what your point was, I guess I missed nothing.

I'm sorry but what part of 'this is not a crosspost' eludes you ?

The part where it never was posted?


All this started when Yuri crossposted into your group in the faint
hope that you would all spring to his defence..

And no-one did. We merely asked the crossposting to stop because the juvenile
arguing was interfering with _our_ juvenile agruing. ;-)

Steve
Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer
http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm

ospam (Stephen Baker) wrote in message ...
benlizross says:

snip

Unfortunately your crossposting has not brought us any fresh
expertise from among the boat-builders or the New Zealanders.

snip a bit more

Then FFS cut the cross-posting and leave us alone here in boat-building land.

Here's a clue (from New Zealand, no less...):
http://carcino.gen.nz/images/image.p...22/arguing.jpg


Well done Stephen.
Must be proud of yourself having a go at the Special Olympics
You have just demonstrated the sort of person you are..
The submarine service could do with your help They need deckhands !

George says:

Well done Stephen.
Must be proud of yourself having a go at the Special Olympics

No, just using them as an example of how simple it is to make bad assumptions
about others on UseNet, anbd how idiotic it is to argue with folks you don't
know.

Yes, the picture makes fun of the Special Olympics, which is not kind. My
apologies.
The analogy, badly put though it may be, still holds. Here we had/have two
guys arguing, who in all likelihood have never met face to face, or spoken on
the phone, each convinced he is right, and neither is ever going to convince
the other of their fallacies.
It will degenerate into a "he said" "she said" thing soon, and then there will
be quiet for a while until someone starts another unprovable argument.
So, what is the point of the arguing? Are you really going ot get a warm,
fuzzy feeling if you win? Is there a prize (apart from the ego thing)?

You have just demonstrated the sort of person you are..
The submarine service could do with your help They need deckhands !

And you have just demonstrated the sort of person you are. Nice job.

Steve

ospam (Stephen Baker) wrote in message ...
George says:

Well done Stephen.
Must be proud of yourself having a go at the Special Olympics

No, just using them as an example of how simple it is to make bad assumptions
about others on UseNet, anbd how idiotic it is to argue with folks you don't
know.

Yes, the picture makes fun of the Special Olympics, which is not kind. My
apologies.
The analogy, badly put though it may be, still holds. Here we had/have two
guys arguing, who in all likelihood have never met face to face, or spoken on
the phone, each convinced he is right, and neither is ever going to convince
the other of their fallacies.
It will degenerate into a "he said" "she said" thing soon, and then there will
be quiet for a while until someone starts another unprovable argument.
So, what is the point of the arguing? Are you really going ot get a warm,
fuzzy feeling if you win? Is there a prize (apart from the ego thing)?

You have just demonstrated the sort of person you are..
The submarine service could do with your help They need deckhands !

And you have just demonstrated the sort of person you are. Nice job.

Yes. I stick up for the people who through no fault of their own have
physical and/or mental disabilities and very bravely get on with life.
They don't need the jeers and predudice demonstrated in your post.
And okay you apologised.
Now, you have attracted my attention I shall lurk awhile and read the
group